I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing ? [Insert thinking emoji]
How do ERE men attract women?
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
@chenda:
Well, it has a lot to do with three otherwise positive trends; increased years in education, equal rights for females, and increased lifespan. For instance, 18-28 you are in school and establishing yourself in first career, age 29 you marry and your marriage is successful in the sense that it lasts longer than most until you divorce at age 48, 49 to 62 you are single and starting your own business, 63 you marry again but your spouse who is 5 years older than you dies at 78, 73 to 89 you are single again. So, even though you had two reasonably successful marriages, you spent 39 years single vs. 29 years married.
Well, it has a lot to do with three otherwise positive trends; increased years in education, equal rights for females, and increased lifespan. For instance, 18-28 you are in school and establishing yourself in first career, age 29 you marry and your marriage is successful in the sense that it lasts longer than most until you divorce at age 48, 49 to 62 you are single and starting your own business, 63 you marry again but your spouse who is 5 years older than you dies at 78, 73 to 89 you are single again. So, even though you had two reasonably successful marriages, you spent 39 years single vs. 29 years married.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
Yes that's very true. I recall reading Thomas Hardy's under the greenwood tree as a 12 year old, which is a rather sweet love story which left me with a rather unrealistic expectation that I would be married at 21 and live happily ever after. Vis-à-vis the hackerbase thread the character of the local wise women left a better impression on me:
'Elizabeth Endorfield had a repute among women which was in its nature something between distinction and notoriety. It was founded on the following items of character. She was shrewd and penetrating; her house stood in a lonely place; she never went to church; she always retained her bonnet indoors; and she had a pointed chin. Thus far her attributes were distinctly Satanic; and those who looked no further called her, in plain terms, a witch.'
Doubtless wise women would have been the closest thing women had to reproductive services in those days.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
Hmmm...I think I relate most to Glinda. Most of the time she's just chill, floating around, hanging out with the Munchkins, offering vague cryptic advice, planting some flowers along the lovely brick path, but if you push her too far...BAM! She drops a house on you.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
I'm of the opinion that this new age of singleness is almost certainly a bad thing.
But it's complicated. It's the a symptom of a bad thing, but it also causes bad things.
Maybe the best analogy is that it's one of the dominoes in a chain... it didn't start the fall, but it certainly kept the spiral going!
On one hand, the vast majority of people get meaning in their lives from having close connections. And a romantic connection is probably the closest connection you will ever have. So while it's possible to live a great life without it, you'll have to work much harder to add in an acceptable substitute.
On the other hand, we place too much value on it. We expect our romantic partners to be everything, and to provide so much that we could live with them being our singular purpose for living. This leads to unmet expectations, and starts a cycle of growing resentment and opportunity costs as the years wither away without things getting any better. Some people leave, divorce, or just simply decide to tolerate each other and find their joy somewhere else.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
@Veronica - I agree. The fundamental problem as I see it is the previously mentioned steep attraction inequality in men, so many women struggle to find attractive men and most men struggle to find any women at all. I seriously wonder if bisexuality will increase in the future to address the sexual shortfall as it were.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
If I look at a lot of relationships in previous generations, I'm glad that right now it's easier to divorce due to laws and the financial ability to do so. People used to (have to) stay together who really made each other miserable. And outside of that relationship (or perhaps outside of the circle of close friends and children of the couple) nobody would know.
I think it's better to be a single adult who earns their own keep, might have one or more sexual partner(s), might have one or more romantic partner(s) during their lifetime, but who does not get into or stay into a long-term relationship that is not good for them (anymore). I'm not saying to give up on a relationship when the first struggle hits, because yes, you can also learn a lot from those and grow as a person and as a couple... but sometimes you really really need to split up to both have a chance at a decent life.
I think it's better to be a single adult who earns their own keep, might have one or more sexual partner(s), might have one or more romantic partner(s) during their lifetime, but who does not get into or stay into a long-term relationship that is not good for them (anymore). I'm not saying to give up on a relationship when the first struggle hits, because yes, you can also learn a lot from those and grow as a person and as a couple... but sometimes you really really need to split up to both have a chance at a decent life.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
Absolutely true. Not so long ago women were lucky if their spouse wasn't a wife beater or rapist. It's shocking to me that marital rape wasn't even criminalised until the 1980s/90s in most of the western world, and it remains legal in many countries. Those who lament the decline in traditional monogamy should remember this.
There's a house a few stories down from me where in the early 1980s a women was strangled to death by her boyfriend because he believed she was cheating on him. He got an absurdly lenient sentence for manslaughter, on the grounds the women was to blame for her own murder. The judge said that men's feelings of sexual jealousy are very difficult to control, and her death served as a warning to other young women who might be tempted to put it about too much. Absolutely disgusting.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
I wonder why it has not been my experience that there is a shortage of attractive men out there? In fact, my immediate counter-reaction to this statement is a desire to start dating again, because there are so many attractive men out there*, and dating is fun. So, the reasons why I am currently exhibiting behavior in alignment with membership in OWGTOW (Old Women Going Their Own Way), would be:chenda wrote:The fundamental problem as I see it is the previously mentioned steep attraction inequality in men, so many women struggle to find attractive men and most men struggle to find any women at all.
1) Not feeling attractive myself. (temporarily weak in my feminine energy due to illness followed by self-indulgence)
2) Trying to avoid being distracted from other goals. (staying in my adult (as opposed to juvenile fun-seeking) masculine energy in spite of adhd/severe procrastination syndrome, etc.)
3) Level 2 lack of desire to find myself once again living alone with a man. (lack of relationship skills required to avoid slippery slope from having great fun making out in a car to feeling oppressed because somebody using a very grouchy voice is telling me how to load the dishwasher**.)
*Although, I would agree that looking at photos of random men online does not give me that impression. There was a theory that the reason why Playgirl magazine failed to gain the readership of Playboy was that it didn't even include a photo of a man with a full erection until its 7th year of publication. My theory is that an exhibition of masculinity likely to attract heterosexual females requires presence and action. Photos are inherently too passive. In fact, I would say that it is not possible to fully judge how attractive a man might be until you are in his company, in person, on his own turf (context in which he can exhibit his moves/skillz/purpose.) So, sometimes it might take a few dates.
**According to book I am currently reading "MindGym: Achieve More by Thinking Differently", this may be because I do not (yet) have adequate script to deal with humans who are inhabiting the role of Persecutor in relationship, my own tendencies testing as 50% rescuer, 33% victim, 17% persecutor. For instance, the book says that if somebody in Persecutor mode says something like "You dummy. Look what you've done again!", a functional response would be akin to a calm "I'll do (a, b, c) to resolve the problem", whereas my current response would be more akin to a cold "If you ever speak to me again in such a disrespectful manner, my bags will be packed." IOW, zero tolerance for grouchiness. 100% attitude/behavior in alignment with a children's book I used to read to my children which features a happy, little pig taking care of herself, entitled "I Like Me!" I suppose my more dysfunctional adult version on the theme would be more akin to "I'm Okay, You're an Asshole!"
ETA:
Yeah, one time when I was in the shower after sex with a man I was dating, he said "If you ever cheat on me, I will hunt you down." This was when I was still a strict serial monogamist, so I had no intention of cheating on him in any way, but I also strongly did not feel like being "hunted down" was appropriate response to such behavior. Of course, then I was also afraid of breaking up with him, so I had to do it in a vague, chicken-shit, making myself unattractive manner. Like the slow-motion version of throwing up on yourself to turn-off a rapist.chenda wrote:There's a house a few stories down from me where in the early 1980s a women was strangled to death by her boyfriend because he believed she was cheating on him.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
@7w5 - hehe that book looks great. Admittedly I've mostly only dated women since age 35 or so, not due to a shortage of men so much as my preferences changed.
I definitely agree photos are too passive for most women, probably why pornography usually caters to a male audience (Although as a child I was bought a medical book full of detailed photos of genitalia as a primer to the sex-and-period talk, which probably desensitised me to porn later in life) I think it was noted up thread how most men struggle on dating apps due in part to not been able to easily project qualities beyond how they look.
Yes those sort of men are utterly appalling. I actually new a girl who was murdered by her neighbour - a chartered engineer of all people - apparently for rejecting his sexual advances.
I definitely agree photos are too passive for most women, probably why pornography usually caters to a male audience (Although as a child I was bought a medical book full of detailed photos of genitalia as a primer to the sex-and-period talk, which probably desensitised me to porn later in life) I think it was noted up thread how most men struggle on dating apps due in part to not been able to easily project qualities beyond how they look.
Yes those sort of men are utterly appalling. I actually new a girl who was murdered by her neighbour - a chartered engineer of all people - apparently for rejecting his sexual advances.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
This sort of thing is exactly why I'm so worried for the future. Sex, and the connections that it fosters, are so powerful that people will literally kill for it.
And if we ever get to a point where even the most intellectually gifted, practically skilled or otherwise net-productive members of society are denied it... I shudder to think about what that world will look like.
What if people wake up to this reality, and simply decide that any skill that doesn't attract a partner is a skill not worth learning?
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
deleted. i went on a rant.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
I would rather rephrase that to: some people are so severely mentally ill that they will kill when they don't get what they want. That could be sex, attention, power, money...
As a society, we need to make sure we reduce the chances of that happening as much as possible, by for example recognizing child abuse (as that's a way to create mentally ill people) and getting those kids to safety, by treating mentally ill people, and by reducing the chances that they can actually kill (gun laws come to mind).
No adult (man, woman, other) is entitled to get sex, or attention, or free work (like housework), or a child, from someone else. If someone doesn't want to give you these things, or not anymore, that's something you will have to deal with. If nobody wants to give these things to you, then again, that's a disappointment that you will have to deal with, without hurting someone else in the process.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
@Veronica @Dutchgirl - Yes, not to mention online radicalisation which has led to numerous acts of random violence.
Whilst I can sympathise with the many young men who struggle to attract women (most of whom are not violent misogynists) they need to find better ways to deal with it, like not defining their self worth by their sexual success, or lack thereof.
Those like Jordan Peterson who want to bring back tradition monogamy on the alleged grounds it reduces violence in society seem to be implicitly suggesting every man is entitled to sex and women are obliged to provide it for the 'greater good'.
Whilst I can sympathise with the many young men who struggle to attract women (most of whom are not violent misogynists) they need to find better ways to deal with it, like not defining their self worth by their sexual success, or lack thereof.
Those like Jordan Peterson who want to bring back tradition monogamy on the alleged grounds it reduces violence in society seem to be implicitly suggesting every man is entitled to sex and women are obliged to provide it for the 'greater good'.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
The possibility of having a partner is for many men the only thing that motivates them to participate cooperatively to society. And no one is entitled to those disapointed men's collaboration.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
they could chose not to work and abuse welfare, they could chose not to follow the law, possibilities are only limited by imagination.
You can either have people collaborate willingly, or you can make them collaborate, but ability to make them is limited by your means.
You can either have people collaborate willingly, or you can make them collaborate, but ability to make them is limited by your means.
Re: How do ERE men attract women?
Men should cooperate regardless of their relationship status. Women have no sexual obligations to them or society.