DutchGirl's journal

[BaldEagle]

From my experience almost every PhD student suffers at the end (I did too), I think it is just a part of the whole process of being preoccupied with one topic for a long time. However the joy of finishing it can be very liberating - that is how I felt it. I am not a creative writer, I would never make it as a blogger; this is my first post on the forum in 3 years. So you can imagine that writing my thesis was no picnic for me.

Try to take a short break from writing, and then just finish the thing. You are way to close to the finish line to quit now. Take it as your last formal intellectual challenge, I promised to myself that for one year after my PhD defense the most demanding intellectual job that I would do was to balance my checking account. Jacob is right about PhD titles. Seek encouragement on the forum, if needed.

[saving-10-years]

I'm seriously considering not finishing this thesis. It's a pity and worthy of some good cries (hey, I'm a girl), but the thing is making my life miserable. And there is actually no benefit for me to finish it. ... It just feels like I'll disappoint so many people, starting with myself, and then my parents and my boyfriend and my supervisors.

Please do finish it. I felt the same way as you on this - if I could have wiggled out without making problems for others (e.g. my supervisors who had nodded sagely for years and said that I was on track when I felt overwhelmed by work and underwhelmed by my research) I would have. There will be jobs and job interviews in the future, or simply things that you would like to do where the magical Dr will have some weight.

If you read your ERE journal back to yourself you will see that you have struggled with this beast and made progress against the odds before. The problem now (lack of interest in finishing and wondering whether its worth the binding costs and the party) are really small obstacles compared to those you have overcome in the past. Take a break of a day or so to get some distance. Ask for the costs of the binding as an early present from whoever might normally buy you something. Follow Jacob's habit re. the PhD party (we don't have anything that is required in the UK, just some drinks which the department pays for).

Having the PhD has not transformed my career (I am after all retiring from that area of work in two weeks time) but it does give me something tangible to show for the effort that I put in. You sound very close. Try and find someone who finished in similar circumstances and learn from their tricks. (Mine was not sleeping until it was done, which is not advisable).

If all else fails just imagine the dozens of conversations that you will be forced into with your friends and acquaintances over the next weeks/months/years. Do you want to explain why you did not finish and that was a good thing? Or do you want to tell them that its done and you have your life back and would like to talk about something more interesting now?

[DutchGirl]

I'm seriously considering not finishing this thesis. ... It just feels like I'll disappoint so many people, starting with myself, and then my parents and my boyfriend and my supervisors.

Have you told anyone that you're considering not finishing? How did they react?

Only my boyfriend as of yet. He said he has noticed how unhappy I've been for the last couple of weeks, and that he would love for me to be happier. Whatever that takes.

How close are you to finishing? Do you have all the data? All the analysis?

I have all the data. A bio-informatician is working on the last analysis that I couldn't do on my own because it's complicated stuff. We would discuss it next Friday. The thing is, my supervisors aren't happy about the introduction at the beginning of the thesis and about the discussion at the end of the thesis. They said I'm not "up to date" anymore, which is quite possible because I've been out of the field for over two years now. Still I think I did a reasonably good job. And these parts probably shouldn't be the parts that decide whether or not somebody can have their title. And maybe on the other hand I didn't do a good job indeed and I don't even deserve that title.

I talked to my brother just now; he's a consultant and he's much better at talking to people than I am. He gave me some good suggestions to try and convince my supervisors to move towards our common target. Maybe that helps to make the process quicker and less stressfull.

It's just... I decided in December that I would do a final push in January and February. And I worked my ass off. There was a problem in February when I struggled to find a bioinformatician who could help me with the last analysis. (The last author of that paper just dumped it on me when I asked her for help with this). And my supervisors didn't have time to read my work until March. And then they say it needs changes.

I'm stressed out and depressed and another 10 pounds heavier than I was in December. I cannot take much more.

[llorona]

It's your life, and you get to live it the way you choose. Don't worry about disappointing anyone but you.

With this said, I echo everyone else's sentiment: You've come so far.

Maybe you could take a long weekend off and go someplace relaxing? Treat yourself well, do things you like, and take care of yourself. Then come back and see how you feel?

By the way, I love your blog and reading about how far you've come!

[mxlr650]

I'm stressed out and depressed and another 10 pounds heavier than I was in December. I cannot take much more.

If PhD was that easy everyone would do it. I think you should take your mind off of this PhD business for a few weeks and chill and see how you view things after that. It is not the PhD degree per se, but the ability to push thru things in the face of adversity that is a worthy trait to have. From what I read in your journal, you have been out of your domain for few years so you will have to do some work to get back and be relevant. All others (printing, party etc) are pretty easy to solve with some money. I empathize with your situation, and I wish you good luck in whatever you decide!

PS: I caught PhD bug right after my grad school and based on the conversation I had with someone I admired a lot, I decided not to go PhD route and I never regretted the decision. I might consider it when i reach social security age as it is a good mental challenge to go after.

[saving-10-years]

I wrote my earlier message before you mentioned what the hold up is. I think that your suggestion:

talked to my brother just now; he's a consultant and he's much better at talking to people than I am. He gave me some good suggestions to try and convince my supervisors to move towards our common target. Maybe that helps to make the process quicker and less stressfull.

sounds like an excellent plan. Your supervisors will want you to finish too and they may a) not have realised quite how near they have got to pushing you off the edge, or b) not quite said what they meant to (expressed what they meant). They are asking you to adjust the intro and the conclusion (to make these mention more up to date work to show that you are aware?) This does not sound like major work (as you say its not the meat of the PhD - the really important research-y stuff).

I would go so far as to suggest that this is standard advice which is given when the PhD has spanned an extensive period (I know I had the same advice so there probably is a PhDComic strip about it somewhere its _that_ prevalent). I suspect that the examiner has these questions as standard in any work (Is this up to date or showing awareness of recent work?)

It sucks that your supervisors could not give this feedback until March (by which time you thought you had done enought and finished). Yes, take a break and talk to your supervisors creatively. What they are asking for is (sort of) window dressing. Just showing that you know what is happening now by referring to work of other researchers and reading some recent material (hopefully interesting stuff) - your supervisors are the ideal people to offer advice here (that is their job isn't it?). Best of luck.

You sound close (but exhausted). Good luck.

[DutchGirl]

Thanks.

Thanks to everyone here for all of the support!

I am going in tomorrow for a previously scheduled meeting. I might want to prepare that a bit more so that I can adequately express myself. And perhaps find out a bit more what I myself want/can handle, etc.

[DutchGirl]

... I've decided that the PhD thesis needs to go on the back burner for a while, for me to feel better again. Lose some weight, have some free time, clean up some of our house, exercise a bit. The meeting last week was cancelled because my supervisor was ill, so now it's rescheduled for this Wednesday. I'll tell him that I will listen to his comments, write things down, and then will go home and put it in a desk somewhere for some time in April or May when I feel well enough, again.

I have been depressed in the past, and the feelings currently are similar. Tears flow easily, and all kinds of other emotions are hard to contain as well. This is unusual for me. Still, I feel that this time it's not a depression coming from within, but rather a mood caused by a very identifiable source from outside. So I hope that by laying it to the side for a while I can recover. It is quite hard to take my mind off of it, but I'm getting there... (Oh, and by the way, things also aren't nearly as bad as they were a few years ago when I was really depressed, but I think if I continued like this, they would become that way).

This weekend I spent some time reading a book about sailing the world. My, it sounds attractive! Three years of doing nothing but sailing on the ocean and enjoying your surroundings. They did it on roughly 50k euros, which is roughly the amount of money that I currently have. Still, the only experience sailing that I have is three weeks of summer camp (it was fun, though), and they also did a lot of the repairs etc on their boat and I have absolutely no experience with that. So I'll just stick to reading books about it, at least for a while. This kind of reading also helps to get your mind off of your own little worries and daydream about great futures.

[saving-10-years]

This kind of reading also helps to get your mind off of your own little worries and daydream about great futures.

It sounds like a good idea (with your supervisors' support) to step away and think about other things. I sometimes find that the deep thinking you need to do happens in the background while you are doing other things (e.g. reading books on sailing). Ideally you have first rationalised what the problem is (supervisors can help here). Good luck and happy reading.

[DutchGirl]

Yesterday I got my salary. So now, for the first time in my life, my assets are worth more than 50,000 euros! (Roughly 68,950 dollars). For someone who remembers owning only 1000 euros, or sometimes even only 10 euros or minus 500 euros (right before the next paycheck), this is an amazing number. In my head I've been using it already now and then for calculations (because hey, 48k is almost 50k, right?), but now that it's really more than 50k... I'm pretty pleased with it!

I'm currently at 50,536 euros, but this will go down over the next month as I pay my groceries, rent, insurance, etc. But next month it'll be above 50k and it'll stay above 50k.

No plans to buy a boat and go sailing, yet

[Chad]

Congratulations! The journey to 100k will be faster.

[DutchGirl]

Thank you. And yes, definitely. Both because of interest on the first 50k, and because of the fact that I now know better how to save up money.

[Hankaroundtheworld]

Well done, and it seems to be fun as well !! and I agree with Chad, it will accelerate because of the compounding, but also as you are young, so you are facing increase of salaries, etc.. Before you know, you are FI, may be even in 5-10 years, well done indeed!

[DutchGirl]

I spent 1390 euros in March, and my income was roughly 3000 euros. So a very nice savings rate. I don't "get" why I had this much income though, so I'm still waiting for the pay stub which should arrive tomorrow or so. I worked 80 hours in February, and until now I could do my hours times 25 to get a good estimate of what paycheck I should get. So I was expecting a 2000 euro paycheck, not a 3000 euro one! Well, we'll see. Maybe it has something to do with me going from a temporary to a permanent contract.

I will say goodbye to being above 50k euros tomorrow, when I pay the quarterly insurance premium. But I will hopefully see it again in three weeks or so.

[DutchGirl]

My paystub arrived yesterday. Now I understand it: they re-calculated my income from February since I officially got hired permanently by Feb 1 (even though I only got those papers at the end of March). So I got 2000 euros of income for March and 1000 more euros from February. It seems like my "base" income will be roughly 2000 euros from now on, if I indeed work the 20 hours / week that my contract says I'll work. But hopefully I'll work more hours than that, as it will also give me more income.

I'm still struggling with the PhD thesis. Talking to my mum the other week, I found out that I mostly feel treated as if I were a small child: I am very dependent on the opinion of my supervisors. Also, first my supervisors say "this final part of the thesis (the discussion at the end of it) is your own work, do it as you want to do it." But then I did and now they still want me to change it, because they don't like it. I am wrestling with the "sunk cost fallacy" idea. My parents and also a lot of other people keep saying "It's a shame to quit now, after all that you've already done for it", but I feel that I could save myself a few more weeks of struggling if I do quit now. Plus I want to punish my supervisors .

Sigh.

I'll probably get there, kicking and screaming, not unlike a small child. It's no way to end a seven year path towards something that is supposed to be pretty cool and grown-up stuff, but I guess it is what it isl).

[anomie]

Hi DutchGirl -

go, go, go! You can do it! Sounds like you are really close!

You may never use or need the degree in later years, and your opinion of your thesis supervisors will surely change over time.

But the world treats people better who have a PhD at the end of their name, rather than someone who has to explain what 'ABD' means, or how you spent years studying a field and almost have a PhD.

In the end, of course, you have to do what's best for you, though.

[saving-10-years]

Its sad that a good supervisor can really help you keep on course and get to the end and poor ones can make you feel like you are performing meaningless rituals just to reinforce their power and status. I was lucky not to have supervisors like those bad ones (but I know people who had three supervisors with all three advising different things). My favourite supervisor became very ill and died during my journey and that made quite a difference to my motivation. I really wanted to please her and felt it was all less important with her gone.

Its tough but you will probably need to be the adult here and start steering the supervision so that you can finish. Do they realise that they are not communicating clearly? Ask questions. Lots of questions. Try and talk to other people who have been or are being supervised by them. Acaddemics can get caught up in nuances - so what may sound very big when they say it may be actually small beer in terms of work. It also may help to clarify if the changes they want are because this is 'what is required' or whether its a matter of their opinion.

Sadly you stopping now will not be seen by your supervisors as publishment. (You know this don't you?) Supervisors look better if you pass but they do not necessarily look that bad if you fail to complete. The student is the one who has most to lose here although it may feel that a few more weeks is more than you can stand right now.

Tiny incentive. Dr ... is a pretty neat option if you are an unmarried mature female. I became very fed up long ago about explaining whether I was or was not married to people who simply wanted me to fill in a form. Now its sorted. Since I married Mr D and retained Ms P as my professional ID things did not improve when we eventually legalised things.

[Spartan_Warrior]

"Its sad that a good supervisor can really help you keep on course and get to the end and poor ones can make you feel like you are performing meaningless rituals just to reinforce their power and status."

+1.

That said, I would vote for hanging in there. It's only a few more weeks after all. I also agree that quitting won't really punish your supervisors. They say the best vengeance is good living and success. I would submit that giving their contact info to salacious telemarketers, toilet papering their houses, or filling their mailboxes with horse manure would qualify as even better vengeance, but that's just me.

[CarharttGuy]

Hang in there Dutch,
I quit school long time ago and had a wonderfull bluecollar job (and the life that goes with that).
At age 45 though, it gets harder and it gets old!!!
So hang in there, it improves your options!!

Thanks to ERE I'm looking at retiring at 50/51 (if my stocks don't completely fail me), but would have preferred to have finished my teachers degree, in order to work LESS hours for a couple of years longer!!!

Regards,

Carharttguy

[DutchGirl]

Now that I'm on a fixed contract, I get a certain amount of holiday-days per year. Suddenly I am the rich owner of 3.5 more weeks of holiday this year... (even though I had so much time off in January, but I wasn't on this contract then). But I have already promised to work certain hours every week from now until October, and until October I also work more hours per month than what I should according to my contract (I'll receive extra salary for those extra hours, yum!).

I feel therefore very rich, timewise. So I have asked for one week of holiday in November, and for another week in January (you can take holiday-days with you for half a year after the end of the calender year). I will probably be able to have one more week paid out in cash (should be another 500-700 euros). The remaining few days will probably also be used during the first half of 2015.

I have not worked on my thesis for these past two weeks, and I needed that. I needed some time off to clear my head, and to get my mood back to "normalish"... I feel a lot better now. I also feel very time-rich right now. I work parttime, and now that my free time isn't swallowed up by my thesis or by worrying about it, what will I do with all that remaining time (so yes, holidays are even more unnecessary if you don't have to recover from fulltime work weeks)? So far, I've biked a lot (for fun and for health), I've made a few more home-cooked meals, and I did the dishes a lot of times while my boyfriend was working 70-hour-workweeks on a lucrative project.

I'm not sure what to do with all this time yet. Will I put it into the thesis again, a few weeks from now? Or will I try and start a side-business (and if so, what?). Or will I continue to use some of that time on reducing our expenses? Or will I continue to just enjoy some of those hours by doing whatever I want to do?