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@Alphaville:

I strongly agree that “work in alignment with purpose(s)” is transcendent of financial independence. Life is love and work. However, I still strongly disagree that “specialization” is a great synonym for “work in alignment with purpose(s).” Our society and economy are not so wonderfully made that purpose can be fulfilled for all through jobs counseling session.

--this post was a forum artifact but i couldn't delete it. the one right below is the correct one--

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:43 pm

I strongly agree that “work in alignment with purpose(s)” is transcendent of financial independence. Life is love and work.

yes! yes it is.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:43 pm

However, I still strongly disagree that “specialization” is a great synonym for “work in alignment with purpose(s).”

well, sure... but i'm not the one saying that, so maybe you're disagreeing with the wrong person?

what i'm saying is that specialization will occur one way or another, through sheer force of repetition, and whether we ask for it or not.

i'm saying that in human life, specialization is... fairly inevitable. let's stop pretending that we all can be all things all at once. that's just some bullshit dream, like the classic "having it all" bullshit sausage. individual human lives all have their parameters, so choose them wisely if possible.

in the end, we choose or it's chosen for us, but we all have our territories. so what i'm saying is pay attention to those choices, because they are not infinite, and will place you in a territory. there are always tradeoffs. you can't take both paths and be one traveler, no matter how sorry you might feel, to mangle robert frost.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:43 pm

Our society and economy are not so wonderfully made that purpose can be fulfilled for all through jobs counseling session.

right, i never even thought that "a jobs couseling session" would be of any help in the first place?

finding one's purpose is a long and ongoing process of discovery that only should end with death.

i also have a long rant about "jobs" vs "work", but my break is over and i must go offline now

chenda wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:43 pm

This really resonates with me. Alphaville do you have an intro or journal ? I can't recall if you're working since you left the Dacha ?

yes! i live in a city now so i must work, or else.

and sorry, no journal. i'm attempting trying to escape the construction of a self (but failing at it hard, regardless )

“Alphaville” wrote: finding one's purpose is a long and ongoing process of discovery that only should end with death.

Well, I think people can and likely will have plural purpose, more than one mission that ties together head, hands, and heart. I also believe that for strong majority of humans, some engagement with the very broad realm of “food” may form one of these purposes. In fact, total disengagement from food as purpose is likely a symptom of the disease of specialization. Spiritual fasting or growing some of your own food are means by which humans can regain sense of purpose in this realm. Thus, apartment homesteading as cure for those most likely to be emotionally or functionally detached seems like good idea to me. Of course, one could also argue that on some level industrialization leads to emotional detachment even for rural dwellers. For obvious instance, I doubt that most of the workers in a Tyson poultry processing plant derive great sense of purpose from their work, but this is even more of a reason why engagement in urban areas is critical.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 am

Well, I think people can and likely will have plural purpose, more than one mission that ties together head, hands, and heart.

well, sure. just not every mission. e.g., for all the attention woodworking gets in this board, i don't really see it in my future. i can't "prioritize" it if it's not an actual priority for me. but food is seriously in my past, present and future.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 am

I also believe that for strong majority of humans, some engagement with the very broad realm of “food” may form one of these purposes

yes of course. in that broad realm i'd rather choose "chef" over cattle rancher. just got more aptitude and means and training for it.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 am

In fact, total disengagement from food as purpose is likely a symptom of the disease of specialization.

yeah, the soylent guy has always given me the creeps a bit. although there is always room for astronaut food. just... not always

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 am

Spiritual fasting or growing some of your own food are means by which humans can regain sense of purpose in this realm. Thus, apartment homesteading as cure for those most likely to be emotionally or functionally detached seems like good idea to me.

i guess that too, yeah. when i started this i think i just wanted to provide a hedge to urban living, add some production modules outside of sheer money-earning + consumption. but as a form of therapy, why not? i'm very much for therapy.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:03 am

Of course, one could also argue that on some level industrialization leads to emotional detachment even for rural dwellers. For obvious instance, I doubt that most of the workers in a Tyson poultry processing plant derive great sense of purpose from their work, but this is even more of a reason why engagement in urban areas is critical.

i don't know about this. i know of farmers who got into contracts with tyson and hated it, but those were independent farmers who wanted something specific out of farming life. recently saw a documentary, can post you a link when i find it...

ETA: it was EATING ANIMALS. watching that fucked me up.

as for factory farms, i've heard about people who work in pig plants, and at least the maternity ward folks seem to show the same level of commitment to saving lives that you see in tv shows about er doctors. i mean they really give their all to help the little piggies thrive. i can't presume to know what things are like for factory farm workers though, since i am not one and haven't lived among them to ask.

i have done other blue collar work and have seen that people get a lot of meaning, dignity, a sense of purpose and belonging and social connection from their work though. it's rarely "just a paycheck." this might not be readily apparent from a middle class perspective, but it's very much there.

eta: i'm now reminded of "a day in the life of ivan denisovich" where gulag prisoners get meaning and satisfaction from building a wall right.

---

ANYWAY, i solved my worm and compost problem by identifying and contacting a local gardening group who welcomed my worms and will receive my compostables in the future. achievement: unlocked. but socially, not individually. gotta love having nice neighbors--that's the beauty of cities, there's always someone doing something interesting one can connect to somehow.

so, no more "indoor worms" for me when floorspace is at a premium and occupied by real priorities. maybe some other time.

we'll just focus on potted plants this season, and see what happens. gotta keep the experiments within manageable scope, as we have many other things to tend to.

--

2nd thing to add: rereading my original post, i can see that my actual misanthropy is greatly reduced, in spite of the abstract misanthropy of witnessing covidiots throughout pandemic.

it's great to find people one can click with, which is something i greatly missed in the boonies.

even if they're not necessarily the best of friends, just the pleasure of positive feedback and mutual understanding with friendly compatible acquaintances boosts dopamine and serotonin and who knows how many other good things. hell yeah cities!

the brain atrophies in social isolation, so i'm glad to be done with this quasi-hikikomori phase of my life. fuck!

“Alphaville” wrote: well, sure. just not every mission. e.g., for all the attention woodworking gets in this board, i don't really see it in my future. i can't "prioritize" it if it's not an actual priority. but food is seriously in my past, present and future,

Well, woodworking is pretty darn specific yet also expandable into several more general core human patterns (like “food”) in which most humans would likely find some sense of purpose; trees, handicrafts, fiber or material arts, shelter, and tool/toy-making. So, the woodworker would relate to the orchardist and the logger through trees, but also to the weaver and the potter through “material arts” and also the carpenter and the interior decorator through “shelter” and also the garden railroad tinkerer and the crewel embroiderer through “handicrafts.”

My point here being that if you just think about the most core patterns of human life and concern or even just how we are embodied, it becomes obvious that we each must have at least half a dozen purposes we could fulfill, and it is highly unlikely that these will be found in a 40 hour per week intersection with profit motive or even specific non-profit motive in hierarchical organization.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:33 am

Well, woodworking is pretty darn specific yet also expandable into several more general core human patterns (like “food”) in which most humans would likely find some sense of purpose; trees, handicrafts, fiber or material arts, shelter, and tool/toy-making. So, the woodworker would relate to the orchardist and the logger through trees, but also to the weaver and the potter through “material arts” and also the carpenter and the interior decorator through “shelter” and also the garden railroad tinkerer and the crewel embroiderer through “handicrafts.”

i read this to mean that the woodworker fits well with a network of specialists! yeah, indeed. i need to socially connect with a decent woodworker for when i need wood products. won't be me making them. don't have time, training, tools, or inclination. hence my output would be very low quality at great expense.

my grandfather was an excellent woodworker--made furniture, utensils, crafts for sale, all sorts of things, prolifically, all by hand, especially in retirement. when i asked him how he learned, he said he had a job in a carpentry shop as a kid. so he kept it up as a hobby for life, which later became a 2nd career. 2 specialties.

one of my uncles, the last-born, takes after him, because he grew up in my grandfather's shop, unlike his other kids who saw him "go away" to work. this uncle has a professional career, but actually supplements some aspects of it with his wood shop. again 2 specialties...

me... i take after the family's gluttons

so yeah i've cooked since i was a kid. i am compatible with the pursuit. this connects with my curiosity for scientific knowledge. and gets filtered through my deliberate-consumer & postconsumer processes. for the corollary of big enjoyment at reasonable prices

but yeah, food is my "thing."

eta: also i prefer a bit of mechanical work over woodwork. learned in high school. always did my car tuneups, etc. later got deeper into farm trucks. now i'm getting into bicycles, and how far down the rabbithole this will go i have no idea, but way leads on to way, robert frost dixit.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:33 am

My point here being that if you just think about the most core patterns of human life and concern or even just how we are embodied, it becomes obvious that we each must have at least half a dozen purposes we could fulfill, and it is highly unlikely that these will be found in a 40 hour per week intersection with profit motive or even specific non-profit motive in hierarchical organization.

i am not qualified to criticize other people's jobs. i know most "jobs" aren't for me though. but what's in it for them, only they know.

i however do know from experience that when someone has too many job descriptions in their title they suck at all of them

i prefer collaborating with people who are good at what they do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i enjoy small teams of experts.

(this too is why i love cities: an abundance of expert knowledge, and people at the top of their game.)

“Alphaville “ wrote: i also know from experience that when someone has too many job descriptions in their title they suck at all of them

i prefer collaborating with people who are good at what they do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, jack of all trades master of none..blah,blah,blah...like Isaac Newton would be more fun to jam with than Benjamin Franklin? Don’t think so. (Especially given that his second area of mastery was religious dogma. )

OTOH, it is true that the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice toward mastery rule of thumb popularized by Malcolm Gladwell has pretty much been blown to bits. Turns out quality and availability of teacher or mentor who also provides key feedback, innate talent or ability, and age when first introduced to realm also make huge difference. Depending on the realm, these factors can reduce deliberate practice time towards mastery to as little as 750 hours or as much as “ain’t never gonna happen.”

I was thinking about “age of introduction “ as a factor when I was reading the article about intuition being linked to expertise in an area written by the Dreyfus brothers and related to CCCCC model. For instance, I was thinking about the skill of swimming. I have never been a competitive swimmer or even a strong swimmer, but I am an intuitive swimmer, because I learned to swim at a very young age. Another example would be my musician sister’s belief that most white children are culturally deprived of a sense of rhythm.

So, maybe I’m circling around to agreeing with you on the level that if goal is Renaissance Ideal of Mastery in variety of fields, it might be best to start with those areas where you do have advantage of innate talent or ability, early exposure, and access to very good teachers or mentors for feedback and direction, as well as the motivation necessary to do the deliberate practice.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 am

It is interesting to note that it may already be more efficient to grow micro greens under lights powered by solar panels than to buy greens grown on industrial farm and trucked in to store.

Currently, there are approximately 2 acres of at least marginally arable land and approximately another 2 acres of desert or mountainous land for each human on the planet. There is no reason why this should coincidentally correspond with acreage necessary for self-sufficient production of all necessities such as tools and disposal/processing of waste towards decent lifestyle for every human.

Since I like crazy thought experiments, I ran some numbers about what it would take for something close to "self-sufficiency" on my prototypical ~.15 acre lot rowhome scenario that I've outlined in previous posts: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11796&p=235256&hil ... or#p235256

Let's assume that there are 3 people living in the house, which comes out to ~300 sqft of living space per person and private bedrooms, when in reality it's probably closer to 350-400 sqft per person if you include the unfinished basement that can be used for storage, root cellar, workshop, etc.

Calorie crops are the first challenge. Potatoes are the winner in regions where they can be grown (see here for more discussion):
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11269&p=235765&hili ... et#p235765

Using the potato bucket trellis system that I am still refining, the idea is you will have 4x 5 gallon buckets stacked on top of each other hanging from some kind of fence/trellis. With 6 inch gaps between top of one bucket and bottom of the bucket above it, this is about the upper limit of what you can manage without needing a ladder or stool. Assuming 4 lbs of potato yield per bucket (1 sqft of space), an additional .25 sqft of space needed for trellis/structure, one can grow something like 12.8 lbs of potatoes per sqft. In my region you can get 2 potato harvests per year by planting in early spring and late summer.

1lb of potatoes is about 350 calories with 160g of carbs, so it's a simple math problem from there.

If a person wants to eat 4 lbs of potatoes a day (1400 calories) for 360 days out of the year (keeping it simple with round numbers), then you are going to need 60 sqft of space that gets full sun. Therefore, the 180 sqft of space that is needed for 3 people's worth of potatoes is possible on the rowhouse roof garden, provided the roof can structurally hold the weight. In my sketches, there is also still space for a dozen or so small fruit/nut trees in containers, as well as some space for herbs, 2 beehives, seating/processing area, and there is still the opportunity to grow heat-loving veggies in the unused potato space from May-August. Fruits/nuts will provide additional calories and micronutrients, with nuts providing some healthy fats as well. Berries and protein rich bushes in the shaded backyard provide additional human and goat feed.

With a good chunk of the calories taken care of, that leaves the indoor microgreen system to provide key micronutrients as substitution for how traditional leafy greens are used (there is little space for traditional leafy greens due to potato growing requirements). Not entirely closed loop because the seeds will have to come from offsite, but it is pretty easy to stockpile a year's worth of seeds when buying in bulk.

After that, any bonus animal proteins provide the remaining calories. We've talked about things like quail, chicken, and dwarf milk goats in this thread. Those animals will almost certainly require some grain feed/hay/minerals from offsite to at least supplement their diet, so it's more a matter of preference regarding how much people value complete proteins and some of the micronutrients that are difficult to come by in plants.

Does anyone living in a developed country want to eat 4+ lbs of potatoes a day? Probably not, but I do think it is possible to survive on something like this. The Irish peasants supposedly ate 10+ lbs per day for adult males, but they were doing 12 hours a day of field work and had to compensate for lack of micronutrients and lack of modern nutritional knowledge. I've seen some articles that say growing potatoes in containers actually reduced blight and other diseases because the soil has better drainage and there is better airflow around the leaves. Harvesting the potatoes is also easier because you just flip the bucket over on a tarp and pick out the spuds, rather than having to dig things up.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:17 am

So, maybe I’m circling around to agreeing with you on the level that if goal is Renaissance Ideal of Mastery in variety of fields, it might be best to start with those areas where you do have advantage of innate talent or ability, early exposure, and access to very good teachers or mentors for feedback and direction, as well as the motivation necessary to do the deliberate practice.

yeah, this is why i want a "renaissance community" rather than the pretense of polymathic omnipotence.

i simply can't do all. well, i can, but... crappily.

also thinking community is much more important in cities than in frontier type situations

white belt wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:54 pm

that victory garden calculation looks good.

could you factor in for fertilizer needs for potato? they're soil depleters...

Alphaville wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:15 pm

that victory garden calculation looks good.

could you factor in for fertilizer needs for potato? they're soil depleters...

Well I’d need some more precise figures to do that but here are the fertilizer options:

-Humanure from compost toilet that composts for 1+ year in sealed barrels. Not the first option to use on root crops, but considering potatoes are always cooked before consumption the risk of pathogens is probably lower
-worm castings
-traditional compost from garden waste
-goat manure (if goats are in system)
-quail manure (if quail are in system)

I’d need to dig more into the NPK ratios required for potatoes and the associated ratios for different forms of compost to give a more precise answer.

Containers certainly have some disadvantages, but the ability to mix nutrients for ideal soil composition and control more variables is an advantage.

white belt wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:23 pm

-traditional compost from garden waste
-goat manure (if goats are in system)

here's an improvement over your traditional compost and it fits in a backyard...

...wait, maybe i should post that in the retrofit thread. goat manure won't fit in an apartment. goat piss! intolerable stench

here you go... "let's take it outside" viewtopic.php?p=242400#p242400

or we need a proper house-sized thread. "the .15 acre farm"

"apartment" = [indoors + city network]

no basements either! that's cheating

besides: there are city flows that truly deserve exploration in their own right.

eg
"Huzzah, the brown bins are back!"



civilization!

To clarify, the goats never come in the house. They go in the backyard with their pen/play space, then are taken on leashed walks around the neighborhood to eat overgrown vegetation and exercise (in ideal fantasy world that this doesn’t violate zoning laws). The house I linked is actually not a perfect example because if you look closely there has been an addition on the back which has shrunk the backyard.

My understanding is that the male goats are the ones that smell (I’ll only have females/take goats offsite for breeding) and goats can be trained to pee in a litter box or one specific area. The design challenge is will be to construct a goat pen structure while also having space in backyard for sealed bins of various forms of compost.

I disagree that basements are cheating. That would be like saying no multiple bedroom apartments or shared kitchens allowed. These houses were built over 100 years ago and those basements are still there and will forever be there whether you want them or not. Heck I’d be willing to bet your current apartment building has a large basement that is underutilized (maybe just us storage for items by management).

basements are cheating in apartments, which have no basement.

and i win the bet.

srsly, no goats anywhere in the building. you wanna get evicted, go ahead and try.







HELLZ NO

Did you read my post? The goats aren’t ever inside.

But anyway, after further consideration you are probably right that my post would fit better in the retrofitting thread. I just posted it here because I was responding to 7WB5’s earlier musings in this thread.

white belt wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:48 pm

Did you read my post? The goats aren’t ever inside.

yeah man, i have direct live experience with goats, they're savages, will jump on your car and eat your trees

srsly, goats are only semi-domestic. very willful animals and a ton of fun to watch but... you don't walk them like a dog, you shepherd them. over... fields. preferably with the help of a good sheepdog (not all dogs know/can herd animals).

apartments have restrictions over the type and number and size of animals you can keep in them. apartment or condo or co-op-op, same thing. eg not even large dogs.

--

eta: even pygmy goats! read this article for the lols
https://www.roysfarm.com/can-pygmy-goats-live-inside/

i laughed outloud while reading that because i know first-hand that it's true

goats are smart and fucking hilarious. and... disgusting and destructive also.

@ white belt:

If the potato buckets are only 6 inches vertical separation, a design with openings in the front (to the south) would likely be better. You might also want to give some consideration to sweet potatoes because I think their growth pattern might be better for vertical conversion and they like summer in the hot asphalt city type heat. What fun!

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:14 pm

you might also want to give some consideration to sweet potatoes because I think their growth pattern might be better for vertical conversion and they like summer in the hot asphalt city type heat. What fun!

ooooh... tasty tasTY

--

anyway i remember seeing this website somewhere ages ago. linking it here for general use/posterity:

https://www.urbanorganicgardener.com/ba ... le-garden/

fits balconies, fire escapes, walls, rails, etc.

i might try some of that... it's within reach. he uses empty soda bottles. not sure my building will allow that but can do a hoity toity version i suppose.

eta that website used to be simpler, looks a bit spammier now with ads.

Goats being walked on leashes: https://youtu.be/wDKY0r4OwKE

Goats being kept in urban settings:
-San Francisco: https://youtu.be/mCPKRc2Dpqk
-Oakland: https://youtu.be/8yYO4L2vegE

Again, the concept is that the goats are in an enclosed pen in the backyard, just like it is still quite commonplace in some neighborhoods to have large dogs that live in the backyard in the city. This is covered extensively in The Essential Urban Farmer with dimensions and everything.

Sure, apartments have restrictions and zoning laws exist. But these rules/laws are not edicts and can be changed. Look at all the zoning changes Brad Lancaster made in his town. He talks about how many things he started doing like compost toilet, curb cuts, etc were illegal at the time, but over the years he was able to build support for them in the community and change zoning laws. Humans learn by copying examples of others.

I see a few options to dealing with zoning laws:

-abide by existing rules and severely limit options, efficiency, etc (no goats, no compost toilet, etc)

-live in sufficiently decrepit neighborhood where zoning laws are not enforced (Novella Carpenter talks about this in the above video, though I believe you said she eventually did get a variance approved)

-find some legal loophole to classify the goats as pets/emotional support animals

-use some financial capital to bribe/lobby city gov’t for variance or change to zoning laws

-rally surrounding community/non-profit in support of issue (I think the Goat Justice League is one organization that has already done this in multiple cities)


Even without goats the potato homestead concept works, it’s just the loops aren’t as closed.