I don't hate my job. I'm not even completely bored with it. I can't deal with the stress of it though. Although I'm not bored, I am not hungry the people I work with... they live and breath it, and I have constant anxiety about that. Additionally, the schedules and deadlines continually eat away at me. Even if I limit my hours to a reasonable level, I'm unable to 'shut off' after work. While I've worked at dilbert style places, my current job is actually a great place where I have utmost respect for nearly everyone's abilities and their drive - so much that I can't bring myself to just sit back and coast. At the same time, I don't want to go back to a place where I would feel comfortable coasting with no respect for my management. A bit of a catch 22.
If I could somehow adjust my psyche and my situation to be comfortable with all of that, and I could work 6-8 months a year for 3 days a week, I believe I would. I feel that consciously choosing to limit oneself to a few weeks a year (~5%) of unfettered freedom is more insane than even the most extreme lifestyles on this forum.
Do (or did) you find NO value/satisfaction in working
I'm pretty much in the same boat as chilly.
Basically I enjoy my job. It's not mindless button-pushing (although it can sometimes feel like that), the people I work with are smart, and I feel as though I'm learning quite a bit right now. The only problem - and it's a major one - is that it doesn't leave much time for anything else.
Since I work 11-hour days, and because I have a (mild) sleep disorder, I'm basically exhausted all the time, and only have 2-3 hours each evening to decompress, read, surf the web, and so on. At this point, it's worth it, but I know that sooner or later it will not be.
If I were given the option of working only 3-4 days/week and taking a 30% pay cut, I would take it. I'd be making enough to save, but have enough time to pursue what I want. But that's not the case.
This is why I'm pursuing ERE - though my path is certainly not as extreme as other people's. I want that freedom to eventually do nothing, and when that gets boring, to travel and pursue my own projects. If I feel like my life is too unstructured, I might seek part-time work. But in 10-15 years I do not want to be working full-time. I'm not cut out for it.
Basically I enjoy my job. It's not mindless button-pushing (although it can sometimes feel like that), the people I work with are smart, and I feel as though I'm learning quite a bit right now. The only problem - and it's a major one - is that it doesn't leave much time for anything else.
Since I work 11-hour days, and because I have a (mild) sleep disorder, I'm basically exhausted all the time, and only have 2-3 hours each evening to decompress, read, surf the web, and so on. At this point, it's worth it, but I know that sooner or later it will not be.
If I were given the option of working only 3-4 days/week and taking a 30% pay cut, I would take it. I'd be making enough to save, but have enough time to pursue what I want. But that's not the case.
This is why I'm pursuing ERE - though my path is certainly not as extreme as other people's. I want that freedom to eventually do nothing, and when that gets boring, to travel and pursue my own projects. If I feel like my life is too unstructured, I might seek part-time work. But in 10-15 years I do not want to be working full-time. I'm not cut out for it.
@ Piper
A lot of what drives my wife and I towards an ER is what you mention
-----In short, I came to understand that there is more to life than commerce and that our society is on this insane pursuit of comfort, convenience and status that is going to drive human existence to the brink before it ever stops. And while it's doing that, it's not even making us happy. I have a hard time playing along.-----
I have not had the benefit of you wonderful experience but have seen glimpses of the world outside what my professional medical peers would call normal. I am lucky enough to have a job that at the end of most days leaves me with a feeling that I have contributed positively to at least one persons well being. It is not so much the actual tasks, but the politics and less than desirable personalities that are minced into much of the medical community that hasten the drive for early retirement.
Our pursuit of material things is diminishing as we begin to think about in principle what it takes away from others to create our often excess comfort. Developing a sense of responsibility with such great consumption potential of material and services is weird in our circles. I am willing to either be accepted as weird or change the circle.
Lastly, the other big portion of what drives our ER dream is the freedom that we will soon enjoy. As I stated, our jobs are not meaningless but do have their share of headache. Freedom to escape the normal grind and enjoy many simple pleasures that we have chosen to ignore during our spending contest with the others cant come soon enough! If I choose to work at giving anesthesia to surgical patients, I would prefer it to be in a situation that I completely agree with in principle or as some type of volunteer.
So NO, I dont hate my job. There are much better ways to spend the best years of my life than working them away for trinkets and "luxury" experiences.
A lot of what drives my wife and I towards an ER is what you mention
-----In short, I came to understand that there is more to life than commerce and that our society is on this insane pursuit of comfort, convenience and status that is going to drive human existence to the brink before it ever stops. And while it's doing that, it's not even making us happy. I have a hard time playing along.-----
I have not had the benefit of you wonderful experience but have seen glimpses of the world outside what my professional medical peers would call normal. I am lucky enough to have a job that at the end of most days leaves me with a feeling that I have contributed positively to at least one persons well being. It is not so much the actual tasks, but the politics and less than desirable personalities that are minced into much of the medical community that hasten the drive for early retirement.
Our pursuit of material things is diminishing as we begin to think about in principle what it takes away from others to create our often excess comfort. Developing a sense of responsibility with such great consumption potential of material and services is weird in our circles. I am willing to either be accepted as weird or change the circle.
Lastly, the other big portion of what drives our ER dream is the freedom that we will soon enjoy. As I stated, our jobs are not meaningless but do have their share of headache. Freedom to escape the normal grind and enjoy many simple pleasures that we have chosen to ignore during our spending contest with the others cant come soon enough! If I choose to work at giving anesthesia to surgical patients, I would prefer it to be in a situation that I completely agree with in principle or as some type of volunteer.
So NO, I dont hate my job. There are much better ways to spend the best years of my life than working them away for trinkets and "luxury" experiences.
My job is meaningless. I do part-time web dev at an advertising agency. The boss is a tyrant. You do what he wants or you are fired. No matter how ineffective his ideas. So I do it. I think he either understands that I'm not going to play "the game" (the careerism, I'm desperate for a job game) or else I have him believing I'm playing it perfectly. Whatever. Makes no diff. Someday I'll go get a better job because I'm underpaid, but what keeps me here is the part-time hours and the relative lack of stress.
I have to say I don't hate my job, in fact quite often it even goes to the "like" level. But after getting transferred this week to a different team in the branch where I work, when a co-worker asked if I was upset about switching teams I pointed out I don't stress over it, that I look at myself as a mercenary, that I'm there for the paycheck. That said, I've been in so many jobs before, often ones I quickly grew to hate, that in comparison this job is great.
Compared to others here, I am late to the ERE philosophy, though truthfully I found it independent of this site. Basically I am just looking for Financial Independence (FI). In my case I went from near zero net worth 10 years ago, to having my home paid off this fall, $250k in retirement and other investments. I could retire now but when you aren't stressed for money, a career looks different. You don't get stressed at work (at least I don't), instead you live life your way. For now I will stick with my job, with the comfort of knowing I could step away if I had to and be ok. Instead I will try to stay another few years to increase my dividend paying portfolio to be able to pay me at least 33% of my current pay (right now I only get 3%). At that point I will consider if I want to walk away from the daily commute (which is what I really hate the most).
Compared to others here, I am late to the ERE philosophy, though truthfully I found it independent of this site. Basically I am just looking for Financial Independence (FI). In my case I went from near zero net worth 10 years ago, to having my home paid off this fall, $250k in retirement and other investments. I could retire now but when you aren't stressed for money, a career looks different. You don't get stressed at work (at least I don't), instead you live life your way. For now I will stick with my job, with the comfort of knowing I could step away if I had to and be ok. Instead I will try to stay another few years to increase my dividend paying portfolio to be able to pay me at least 33% of my current pay (right now I only get 3%). At that point I will consider if I want to walk away from the daily commute (which is what I really hate the most).
As the pets OP (still wrestling with that one)... I really do like my job, most of the time. There's lots of satisfaction in it. And I like my boss and enjoy being around my coworkers. If I were to leave, I'd really miss them.
But as others have said, great jobs might not last forever. It pays to be prepared.
But as others have said, great jobs might not last forever. It pays to be prepared.
I like a lot of things about my job. I like teaching enthusiastic students, and watching them progress and mature. I don't like the commute, the pointless paperwork, the politics and backstabbing, the culture of fear and lack of stability (we're on our second wave of redundancies in 2 years), and the students who are just there because it seemed a better idea than working for a living.
Like BennKarr, my main aim is FI, not ERE. I'm not as extreme as many on this forum, but I save between 40 - 50% of my income each year and having those assets enables me to feel more serene about my work environment and lack of job security. As SF mentioned, jobs don't last forever, so I would prefer to keep my expenses at a level whereby I could maintain them with a minimum wage job if I ever needed to. I've never understood people who live above their means and complain about being unable to make ends meet on high salaries that they almost won't be able to replace if they lose their current job in the current climate. That must be so stressful that I don't see how they can enjoy their 'luxuries' :-/
Like BennKarr, my main aim is FI, not ERE. I'm not as extreme as many on this forum, but I save between 40 - 50% of my income each year and having those assets enables me to feel more serene about my work environment and lack of job security. As SF mentioned, jobs don't last forever, so I would prefer to keep my expenses at a level whereby I could maintain them with a minimum wage job if I ever needed to. I've never understood people who live above their means and complain about being unable to make ends meet on high salaries that they almost won't be able to replace if they lose their current job in the current climate. That must be so stressful that I don't see how they can enjoy their 'luxuries' :-/
I just want to say that this thread is among the best I've read in this forum. I feel like I've worked at each of these jobs at former points in my life.
As an ex-dirtbagger myself, I especially feel for Piper. I'm not sure how I got over this hurdle myself. Maybe I retained some natural resistance to whatever causes the post-excursion malaise since my freedom exposure time was less than yours. Or maybe the need for health insurance cured me.
I've seen similar symptoms of failing to fully reconnect in the workplace in others when they were away for extended periods. Not just backpacking, but extended leave devoted to parenting, caring for elder parents, after a health scare, and long biking trips. (Strangely, the death of a relative seems to only have a short numbing affect.)
Some of these people chafed at the bridle, and eventually left town and I lost track of them. Others settled down into something like the life that m741 aspires to lead.
As an aside, it's almost comical to listen to the interaction between the below-losers still recovering from freedom exposure and the clueless. Impedance mismatch.
(Disclaimer: I like working with both the losers and the clueless.)
As an ex-dirtbagger myself, I especially feel for Piper. I'm not sure how I got over this hurdle myself. Maybe I retained some natural resistance to whatever causes the post-excursion malaise since my freedom exposure time was less than yours. Or maybe the need for health insurance cured me.
I've seen similar symptoms of failing to fully reconnect in the workplace in others when they were away for extended periods. Not just backpacking, but extended leave devoted to parenting, caring for elder parents, after a health scare, and long biking trips. (Strangely, the death of a relative seems to only have a short numbing affect.)
Some of these people chafed at the bridle, and eventually left town and I lost track of them. Others settled down into something like the life that m741 aspires to lead.
As an aside, it's almost comical to listen to the interaction between the below-losers still recovering from freedom exposure and the clueless. Impedance mismatch.
(Disclaimer: I like working with both the losers and the clueless.)
SF, I hope I can get over the hurdle but I'm not able to now. I get jonesing to sleep outside and then I do and I'm ruined (for the work world) for a little while longer. I really need to just get a job. Or maybe hike the Continental Divide. Maybe a triple crown would cure me. What do you think?
I do have a blog, a boring and pointless one, with no real substance or focus or inspirational value whatsoever. Half the time I write about trying to make shoes.
I do have a blog, a boring and pointless one, with no real substance or focus or inspirational value whatsoever. Half the time I write about trying to make shoes.
Bigato, I have similar thoughts. It's unsustainable and nearing the end. And also, how can I endure the cognitive dissonance of investing in something I disagree with and want to see end? I have all these dumb mutual funds from various 401k and 403b plans and despite choosing them based on little marketing paragraphs (this one invests in stuff that's contra-market, this one invests in socially and environmentally responsible businesses) but they all invest in the same stupid companies, running from one fad to the next.
My blog is at farewelltospring.blogspot.com.
My blog is at farewelltospring.blogspot.com.
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It may be that the stock market collapses completely, but if you're wealthy, you could still put your money in solar panels, wind mills, water filtration, traditional, real estate, a tiny house complex, ... you don't have to route your investments around the secondary market (buying pieces of papers from other); you could own directly. If you think we're going to crash so hard that social structure breaks down, start collecting medicine and ammo; reinforce your doors, get a glock,... Read ferfal.blogspot.com
It may be that the stock market collapses completely, but if you're wealthy, you could still put your money in solar panels, wind mills, water filtration, traditional, real estate, a tiny house complex, ... you don't have to route your investments around the secondary market (buying pieces of papers from other); you could own directly. If you think we're going to crash so hard that social structure breaks down, start collecting medicine and ammo; reinforce your doors, get a glock,... Read ferfal.blogspot.com
@JasonR I think the idea of gold bullion is that if your home country falls into chaos, you can move to another country and sell the gold for local currency. The assumption is that there's some other functioning exchange economy to move into. It's more for scenarios like Iceland or communist revolutions, than for a Mad Max apocalypse.
Even if a collapse like that never happens, the fear/anticipation of it creates price cycles that can be arbitraged. I think most commodity investors are trying to profit from those fluctuations, rather than actually use the commodity for its utilitarian purpose.
Even if a collapse like that never happens, the fear/anticipation of it creates price cycles that can be arbitraged. I think most commodity investors are trying to profit from those fluctuations, rather than actually use the commodity for its utilitarian purpose.
I do not believe that stockpiles of food or ammunition is the answer. I believe the answer is to become a member of your community, to learn to share and help each other through tough times. Isn't this how we tend to respond in emergencies? Why wouldn't this help us during a slow calamity like the waning days of our empire?
So while I do still have financial investments I also consider learning useful skills to be an investment in the future. Perhaps others can help me learn to garden while I can show them how to repair their shoes. I don't know what the future brings but guns and ammo isn't the answer.
So while I do still have financial investments I also consider learning useful skills to be an investment in the future. Perhaps others can help me learn to garden while I can show them how to repair their shoes. I don't know what the future brings but guns and ammo isn't the answer.
Since we've gone off topic, I just don't see the value of gold bullion as a doomsday hedge (rather than as a hedge against moderate inflation). Things that would be of value in a doomsday scenario are practical, such as tents, firearms, water purifiers, solar cells, gasoline, etc. In a complete collapse I think trading of these items would be more worthwhile than an extremely heavy piece of metal.
In the event of a complete collapse of America (where I live), I don't think gold would be useful anywhere. There would be much more pressing things to worry about - where do I get water, how do I obtain food, how do I leave the city? Besides, if America were to truly collapse so suddenly that I couldn't withdraw or convert my currency, it is unlikely that I would be able to flee to another country, or indeed have anywhere to flee to.
In the event of a complete collapse of America (where I live), I don't think gold would be useful anywhere. There would be much more pressing things to worry about - where do I get water, how do I obtain food, how do I leave the city? Besides, if America were to truly collapse so suddenly that I couldn't withdraw or convert my currency, it is unlikely that I would be able to flee to another country, or indeed have anywhere to flee to.
I won't comment on the breakdown of civilization, but as far as work is concerned...I have nothing against it in principle. It's just that there's more to life than earning a paycheck. And since money won't buy more life, I'd like to live the one I've got doing the work I want to do. Problem is, that kind of work doesn't pay for food & shelter. So ERE kind of solves the problem. I put in some time doing the work someone else wants me to do while saving for the time when I can do the work I want to do.
And I am REALLY looking forward to letting some other warm body take over my cube, let me tell you.
And I am REALLY looking forward to letting some other warm body take over my cube, let me tell you.
Work is terribly unsatisfying. The only thing that has kept me sane is a surplus of free time to work on my own projects and read.
Value and satisfaction (VS) were increasing and trending up for about the first 1-2 years... VS peaked right before my first jading event. VS has been heading down ever since, hitting new lows with subsequent BS events. I think the worst realization was that all my best work would be wasted because supervisors can't be bothered to even consider implementing anything new. IE: How I Learned to Stop Trying and Love Not Working.
It has gotten pretty depressing, even this thread depresses me, despite all the excellent input... Sometimes I worry the lack of enthusiasm will spill out of its containment unit (my job) and infect the rest of my life. Is this what happened to most people, who never saw the light at the end of the tunnel (or even knew it existed)?
... On to less depressing subjects, like the zombie-apocalypse :/
As far as the value of gold, I see its price skyrocketing through the first 3 stages of collapse.
After a stage 4 collapse I think it would depend on the outlook and geographic scope of the turmoil. If it is fairly isolated then gold should continue skyrocketing.
If there is a stage 5 collapse it will be so violent and terrible I don't think anyone will be doing any gardening... Maybe, but I imagine any such group as more military than farmer.
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/f ... lapse.html
Stage 1: Financial collapse.
Stage 2: Commercial collapse.
Stage 3: Political collapse.
Stage 4: Social collapse.
Stage 5: Cultural collapse.
Value and satisfaction (VS) were increasing and trending up for about the first 1-2 years... VS peaked right before my first jading event. VS has been heading down ever since, hitting new lows with subsequent BS events. I think the worst realization was that all my best work would be wasted because supervisors can't be bothered to even consider implementing anything new. IE: How I Learned to Stop Trying and Love Not Working.
It has gotten pretty depressing, even this thread depresses me, despite all the excellent input... Sometimes I worry the lack of enthusiasm will spill out of its containment unit (my job) and infect the rest of my life. Is this what happened to most people, who never saw the light at the end of the tunnel (or even knew it existed)?
... On to less depressing subjects, like the zombie-apocalypse :/
As far as the value of gold, I see its price skyrocketing through the first 3 stages of collapse.
After a stage 4 collapse I think it would depend on the outlook and geographic scope of the turmoil. If it is fairly isolated then gold should continue skyrocketing.
If there is a stage 5 collapse it will be so violent and terrible I don't think anyone will be doing any gardening... Maybe, but I imagine any such group as more military than farmer.
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/f ... lapse.html
Stage 1: Financial collapse.
Stage 2: Commercial collapse.
Stage 3: Political collapse.
Stage 4: Social collapse.
Stage 5: Cultural collapse.