The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

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Ego
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Ego »

Dragline wrote:Just remember that most of life is not actually on the menu. :D
How does one know to look beyond the menu? Or, said another way, expecting a person who doesn't know that there are off-menu options to choose something that's not on the menu is like expecting a bee to be a butterfly.

It is all prior experience. That's why consequences are so important.

Dragline
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Dragline »

People "never knowing" something (i.e., what else is there besides the menu presented) necessarily implies the assumption of a static world model. Its a very convenient model for the purpose of argumentation (see economics), but I don't think we live in a static world. Nor are we limited to the cognitive abilities of insects (ok, well maybe that doesn't apply to everyone).

Instead, we live in a dynamic one where many decisions are made over and over again, and there are opportunities to obtain information and reflect on outcomes in between. Captured most eloquently in the dynamic-modeled world aphorism: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

This article that just came out today illustrates a peculiar dynamic circumstance of a person experiencing the menu of life suddenly altered artificially, making new choices possible: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/1 ... iage/?_r=0

He was kind of like the insect in some ways. Then he became more completely human. But I don't think you need electrodes or magnets to change your mental circumstances.
Last edited by Dragline on Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote: How does one know to look beyond the menu?
Step 1: Realize that the menu/box is not all there is.

However, even with much experience in this, the first reflex is still to survey the box first. I would even go so far to say that there are three ways of thinking about issues. By far the most normal way is rationalization-after-the-conclusion in which rationality is used exclusively to justify the conclusion. In short, conclusions lead to rational arguments. This is the default mode of thinking for 80%+ of humanity and this preference causes the dozens of so named biases in thinking. (Fallacies are more due to logical errors, biases are different.) The next step is to flip this process around so that rational arguments lead to conclusions. This is the scientific process as it is defined and it is trainable. Scientists consistently think this way at least when it comes to science. Even if they may start with some intuition about the conclusion, they are not particularly attached to it and will easily change their beliefs if rationality contradicts it. Compare to normal people who are more apt to try to stick with their conclusion and make up a new argument instead. When it comes to the real world, the only people I've consistently seen who isn't particularly attached to any kind of conclusion are good traders. I'm frankly amazed at just how good some of them are. The very best are down to hacking/reprogramming their personal psychology if their current one is losing money. Not only are they self-aware (unlike people in the default mode which are rather self-oblivious) but they are capable of self-change. The third way to to reflexively think outside the box as the first choice rather that something that occurs to one later in a doh-moment. IOW, it's not a question of knowing when or where to look outside the box. The default here is to always look outside the box. The question is how ...

(Of course consumer-society makes it so very easy not to given how all solutions are presented in ready-made products.)

Step 2:

There ERE book is quite full of such tactics---or maybe more accurately, several suchs tactics have been used in writing it. One way is to consider whether you have the entirety of the distribution of choices. E.g. shelter is not just a choice between a house or an apartment. It goes all the way from cardboard box to palace. If you have two variables, another way is to map them out and see if you have any white areas of the map. E.g. the quadrant og business man, salary man, and working man are obvious when you consider coupling and leverage ... but what is the missing quadrant? Ahh, Renaissance man.

A more generic strategy for out of the box thinking is interdisciplinary work where you take a method (tactic) from one discipline and attempt to apply it in another field. This is out-of-the-field but it isn't quite out-of-the-method. However, interdiscipliary attempts are rich in terms of opportunities. This is also why I favor the renaissance approach. Learning a new skill is not just going from N to N+1, it's going from N^N to (N+1)^(N+1) which is a superexponentially larger number. Just try inserting a small number like 3 in those equations. Of course those skills must be materially different. Learning physics followed by learning chemistry is not going to add much. However, learning physics followed by learning biology is a much more value-added proposition.

Distilling all these tactics for thinking has a name and it's a well-known concept. It's called lattice-work.

Lattice-work is still on the pre-zoology stage of things. Few people have even tried to catalogue all there is.

Gregory Bateson speculated that there is an even higher meta-stage in which all the components of lattice work are explained by a super-principle. He also thought that humans might not be capable of discovering this super-principle. The analogy would be to discover evolution to explain the zoology of biological species.

Dragline
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Dragline »

FBeyer wrote:If there ever was a truly life-changing book, Thinking, Fast and Slow is it!
It is kind of "one-stop shopping" if you are looking for a list of common cognitive biases. I find that it explains more than half of most observed human behaviors, and is especially strong on consumerist behaviors and political arguments/ideologies.

Here's a cheat sheet: http://www.prospectingmimeticfractals.c ... -lens.html

JamesR
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by JamesR »

When half the population live from check to check with no means to cough up $400 or $2000 in emergencies.. I feel like this is mainly an educational problem. They're not saving after all.

I think one of the core classes in all grades of school should be something that covers financial literacy, peer pressure, understanding marketing & political lies, looking under the under. Other core classes should be math, rhetoric, exercise, etc.

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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by jacob »

JamesR wrote:I think one of the core classes in all grades of school should be something that covers financial literacy, peer pressure, understanding marketing & political lies, looking under the under. Other core classes should be math, rhetoric, exercise, etc.
That would be the end of society as we know it.

Tyler9000
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Tyler9000 »

BRUTE wrote:
jennypenny wrote:What I'm really struck by in all of these stories is the helplessness. Why can't people learn this for themselves?
brute believes that human free will and agency is greatly overrated. it functions a bit like that physics example of an extra dimension when pushing a marble through a garden hose. the marble is in 3 dimensional space, yet cannot move freely in all 3 dimensions. brute imagines this is what human free will is like to a degree.

if one had a look at most humans and if they ever exercise free will beyond picking from a few suggested options, one would likely conclude there is no free will in any of them.
Tyler thinks Brute makes a great point. He has also thought of it in terms of giving a child the illusion of choice between a hot dog and a hamburger. This illusion pleases the child even though the choices are actually severely limited. Many adults are similarly pleased by their own illusion of choice, although many of their limits are often due to their own ignorance and lack of curiosity.

@Dragline -- thanks for the book recommendation. It's going on the list.

BRUTE
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:
Ego wrote:How does one know to look beyond the menu?
Step 1: Realize that the menu/box is not all there is.
suppose brute emailed and otherwise delivered a link to the ERE website or a copy of the ERE book to all Americans. what percentage would jacob expect to actually implement any of the suggested changes? what if brute made those humans read the book?

when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. brute's point being that humans need to somehow be ready to even start looking to improve in certain situations. what exactly it is, brute is not sure. it's probably a combination of many things.

brute shall call this propensity to actually search for and implement ERE (or any) strategies "trait x". people who sign up for this forum or implement ERE strategies on their own probably have trait x, or a lot of trait x (if it is a scale).

clearly, not all humans have trait x. some humans will never get it (nature), whereas others could get it, but never will, or never have (nurture).

Dragline
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Dragline »

BRUTE wrote:
clearly, not all humans have trait x. some humans will never get it (nature), whereas others could get it, but never will, or never have (nurture).
And we might never really know why some do and some don't. Still one of the great mysteries. At 1:50: https://youtu.be/OK5GK50-whU?t=109

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Ego
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Ego wrote: How does one know to look beyond the menu?
Step 1: Realize that the menu/box is not all there is.

..... This is the scientific process as it is defined and it is trainable. ...
.... When it comes to the real world, the only people I've consistently seen who isn't particularly attached to any kind of conclusion are good traders. I'm frankly amazed at just how good some of them are. The very best are down to hacking/reprogramming their personal psychology if their current one is losing money.


Step 2: ...Ahh, Renaissance man.
Right, but if a person has never learned to look beyond the menu then expecting them to do so is tantamount to expecting a bee to be a butterfly.

I am not saying that we are necessarily responsible for that ignorance. I am saying that from a free-will perspective it is naive to think that someone who is incapable of seeing off-menu could ever become a Renaissance man. In other words, they cannot use their (non-existent) free-will to see an option they are blind to seeing. It really is no different from expecting a blind person to see.

Consequences are important because (much like satire and ridicule) they cause the person suffering consequences to become curious about why they never seem to have the option of off-menu items. When we shelter people from incremental consequences we stifle what would have been induced-curiosity and allow them to continue down the wrong path. The consequences compound and create large vulnerabilities in much the same way that fire suppression has created forests vulnerable to total destruction.

BRUTE
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by BRUTE »

ignoring who's at fault for a microsecond, what are the implications for politics? brute thinks it explains a lot of the trump/bernie voters. if a much larger percentage of humans than previously thought are in economic distress, wouldn't it explain why the vote for those that argue that the system is rigged and want to change it, rather than just tweak the dials a little?

another thought: what about the concept of binding debt, anyway? if there is billions of dollars being lent to humans that cannot and will never pay for it, why are they being forced to pay it back? somebody made the decision to loan to a human who won't pay it back. that's a risk, and the interest is the reward for that risk. lenders gambled and they lost. poof.

if defaulting on debt was easier, debtors would have to do actual due diligence on whom to loan to, or their money would just be gone. mayhaps humans have inadvertently created a moral hazard by incentivizing lenders to lend to anyone, especially to those they know won't be able to pay them back, then relying on public infrastructure (courts, police, debtor protection) to get their money back including fines and fees.

Forskaren
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Forskaren »

My personal opinion is that you have to learn to say no, both to yourself and others. I find that paying for example for a wedding is crazy if you have to withdraw retirement savings. The persons getting married should pay for it themselves and do it in a way that they can afford.

Many people also say: "I can't save money". It usually seem to mean: "I don't want to think. I am not prepared to do anything to solve my problems with expenses."

I watched on TV here in Sweden some old and retired guy with about $2000 to live on each month. He was angry that the banks refused to loan him money on his conditions. He had a huge house worth $600000 and another house worth $200000. He was not renting out any of the houses. He wanted to borrow money, invest in something giving a higher yield than the loan. Basically he was only looking for a solution that included a more affluent lifestyle and still having two houses for himself. He thought that the investment would magically give him money without him having to consume the capital of his houses. My general take is, that most people look for solutions that doesn't include doing things better and different. They want to win on the lottery, get a raise or do some financial hack that get them instant rich without risk.

SilverElephant
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by SilverElephant »

BRUTE wrote:another thought: what about the concept of binding debt, anyway? if there is billions of dollars being lent to humans that cannot and will never pay for it, why are they being forced to pay it back? somebody made the decision to loan to a human who won't pay it back. that's a risk, and the interest is the reward for that risk. lenders gambled and they lost. poof.

if defaulting on debt was easier, debtors would have to do actual due diligence on whom to loan to, or their money would just be gone. mayhaps humans have inadvertently created a moral hazard by incentivizing lenders to lend to anyone, especially to those they know won't be able to pay them back, then relying on public infrastructure (courts, police, debtor protection) to get their money back including fines and fees.
But that would mean two things:

- a sizeable portion of the population would not be able to participate in what everybody does (borrow for college, borrow for a house, borrow for consumption). These people would feel left out and dissatisfied
- people wouldn't be bound in "perpetual debt servitude"

IlliniDave
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by IlliniDave »

I heard this guy interviewed on the radio one day last week. He didn't express quite as much victimhood as the article. Sounds like he's done enough to be financially successful, but more-or-less squandered it all.

In a similar vein, I was talking to an acquaintance last night about my cabin and plans to make lengthy use of it once I hit ER. For a time she kept steering the conversation (back) to how lucky I am. That's one of my pet peeves. I admit to being fortunate in that, aside from a divorce, I have not been visited with too many catastrophes; but that's about the extent of my luck. When I explained it was actually much more mundane than that, how I made a plan ~8 years ago to act on a lifelong dream, changed my behavior, said, "No," to myself much more often, and quit wasting money on stupid $hit, etc., her response was, "Wow ... you're so lucky." For some reason people don't believe they are in control of themselves. Leaves the door open for things like abdicating and allowing/expecting gov't to take care of things I guess. She's older than the typical Bernie demographic, but I definitely get the sense she supports him.

BRUTE
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:I heard this guy interviewed on the radio one day last week. He didn't express quite as much victimhood as the article. Sounds like he's done enough to be financially successful, but more-or-less squandered it all.

In a similar vein, I was talking to an acquaintance last night about my cabin and plans to make lengthy use of it once I hit ER. For a time she kept steering the conversation (back) to how lucky I am. That's one of my pet peeves. I admit to being fortunate in that, aside from a divorce, I have not been visited with too many catastrophes; but that's about the extent of my luck. When I explained it was actually much more mundane than that, how I made a plan ~8 years ago to act on a lifelong dream, changed my behavior, said, "No," to myself much more often, and quit wasting money on stupid $hit, etc., her response was, "Wow ... you're so lucky." For some reason people don't believe they are in control of themselves. Leaves the door open for things like abdicating and allowing/expecting gov't to take care of things I guess. She's older than the typical Bernie demographic, but I definitely get the sense she supports him.
IlliniDave is lucky to be born with a strong work ethic!

BRUTE
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by BRUTE »

SilverElephant wrote: But that would mean two things:

- a sizeable portion of the population would not be able to participate in what everybody does (borrow for college, borrow for a house, borrow for consumption). These people would feel left out and dissatisfied
- people wouldn't be bound in "perpetual debt servitude"
oh no

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Jean
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Jean »

But aren't most people happy with what''s on the menu?
Why care about their (non)choices?

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Ego
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by Ego »

IlliniDave wrote: That's one of my pet peeves. I admit to being fortunate in that, aside from a divorce, I have not been visited with too many catastrophes; but that's about the extent of my luck. When I explained it was actually much more mundane than that, how I made a plan ~8 years ago to act on a lifelong dream, changed my behavior, said, "No," to myself much more often, and quit wasting money on stupid $hit, etc., her response was, "Wow ... you're so lucky."
How did you become the person who learned to say "No"? What mechanism within your brain allowed you to change your behavior and quit spending money on stupid shit?

When I look back at any pivotal point in my life I ask those questions and then begin to trace backward for the sprouting of a particular skill, characteristic or mindset, I find the following:

-I didn't control the genes I inherited at birth.
-I didn't control the nourishment I received in the womb.
-I didn't control the love, food, stimulation, and the myriad of environmental influences I experienced from birth until the moment I made my first decision in life.

So that first decision in life (d1) was purely the result of environment. My second decision (d2) was the result of (d1) + environment. And so on.

I am unable to see where anything other than luck enters the equation.

The problem is, this conflicts with so many important things. The belief in agency is hugely influential in future success. So I operate as if I have agency and try to avoid getting tunnel vision while looking at the menu.

These are two massively conflicting ideas. I try to keep them both in my head without allowing it to explode.

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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by jacob »

@Ego - Is this some kind of free will issue? Easily solved. Will is a matter of degree, say from 0% to 100%. One way is to think about it as temperamental dimension ala MBTI in which some have a preference/ability for agency and others do not---just like intro/extraversion or thinking/feeling.

SilverElephant
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Re: The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

Post by SilverElephant »

I'm not sure this is purely about free will; yes, that decision is yours alone, but to be able to perceive all the possible choices is largely a matter of information (not solely). If everyone you've ever interacted with (that you don't consider a crazy outlier) has two cars and a morgage, that's basically your cone of light in which you're going to be looking for your keys.

(i.e. see what Ego said).

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