No worries. I wasn't really targeting you with that comment or anyone for that matter. More just suggesting that not all things unproductive are bad. We tend to get very productivity focused on here.Devil's Advocate wrote:Chad, I agree. Mea culpa. Said as much in my last post.
I realize that critically examining one's own choices is fine, avoiding some things oneself is OK. But when it comes to other people, to criticise their buying tickets to watch others play, or their gifting habits, or their charity, or their desire to keep their loved ones more luxuriously and comfortably, to criticize others is to conflate expediency with morality, and is indeed arrogant. That realization is why I retracted my earlier position somewhat, in post above.
This applies to consumerism as a whole, too : for that is what consumerism is, an aggregation of just such individual choices. And to careerism as well, for that matter.
So : less ranting. So I get to do my own thing, certainly -- but not to diss those apparently imbecile consumerists. They are not imbeciles, only different people with different prefences. To not recognize that is indeed arrogant, and not very nice.
Sobering thought, that.
are sports fans suckers ?
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I'm skipping over all the philosophy talk because it's over my head. But, I like sports, unabashedly so. I don't spend a whole lot of money on it or an excessive amount of time. I believe it's rooted in an instinct I have to be part of a tribe. For reasons that are pretty basic, I identify with the Chicago teams and the University of Illinois teams. A la Popeye, I yam whats I yam.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Ok, so from my avatar you can guess my opinion on the matter. Apparently, I ‘waste’ 2 hours every weekend screaming at the Liverpool game. Eh, sue me. I like it and I don’t think I should have to justify it by pointing out that I run more than 2 hours every weekend.
The other thing I don’t get is that sports fans are mocked, but people who attend plays or the opera are seen as ‘cultured’. What’s the difference? It’s still overpaying to sit in a chair and watch some talented people perform.
The other thing I don’t get is that sports fans are mocked, but people who attend plays or the opera are seen as ‘cultured’. What’s the difference? It’s still overpaying to sit in a chair and watch some talented people perform.
Last edited by jennypenny on Wed May 14, 2014 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Encouraging fan-dom teaches us to arbitrarily do in-group and out-group categorization of people.jennypenny wrote:The other thing I don’t get is that sports fans are mocked, but people who attend plays or the opera are seen as ‘cultured’. What’s the difference? It’s still overpaying to sit in a chair and watch some talented people perform.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
That makes us more manipulable. Divide and conquer. Phillies vs. Yankees, Dems vs. Reps, Americans vs. Russians....
As far as I can tell Opera does not do that. Well, except for the Montagues and Capulets.
Also, as I said in the other thread, the LA Philharmonic is not organizing into Blitz formation. There is no offense and defense in the orchestra section. The audience does not mock the participants. At least not openly.
These are conceptual metaphors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor
Once implanted, we are apt to extend them to other areas of life -or- to be more open to having someone else extend them for us.
Orwell has something to say on this issue:
http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/s ... h/e_spirit
Yeah, I know.... I know.... my favorite movie is Rocky and I can't stop quoting Fight Club.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Ego wrote: Encouraging fan-dom teaches us to arbitrarily do in-group and out-group categorization of people.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
That makes us more manipulable. Divide and conquer. Phillies vs. Yankees, Dems vs. Reps, Americans vs. Russians....
As far as I can tell Opera does not do that. Well, except for the Montagues and Capulets.
Did you get a chance to read The Righteous Mind? Interesting thoughts on groups in that book, too. I think group identity is a good thing, even with all of its faults.
You say that like it's a good thing.Also, as I said in the other thread, the LA Philharmonic is not organizing into Blitz formation. There is no offense and defense in the orchestra section. The audience does not mock the participants. At least not openly.
I'm just looking at it from an ERE perspective. It's all the same--paying for entertainment. If it's a reasonably small amount that gets spent on what a person truly loves, why should it matter what it is?
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Because group identity can be good does not mean it is always good. Sure, our ability to organize into groups beyond family is advantageous. WRT professional sports, who is doing the organizing and why are they organizing in this particular way? Are there different ways to create in-groups that would be more beneficial? Less harmful?jennypenny wrote: Did you get a chance to read The Righteous Mind? Interesting thoughts on groups in that book, too. I think group identity is a good thing, even with all of its faults.
From where I am sitting it is not the same. Chugging down six beers in nine innings is different from chugging down a bottle of water at a spin class. Both are paid entertainment. Both promote group identity. They are not equivalent.jennypenny wrote:I'm just looking at it from an ERE perspective. It's all the same--paying for entertainment. If it's a reasonably small amount that gets spent on what a person truly loves, why should it matter what it is?
No bias here.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
From where I am sitting it is not the same. Chugging down six beers in nine innings is different from chugging down a bottle of water at a spin class. Both are paid entertainment. Both promote group identity. They are not equivalent.jennypenny wrote:I'm just looking at it from an ERE perspective. It's all the same--paying for entertainment. If it's a reasonably small amount that gets spent on what a person truly loves, why should it matter what it is?
No bias here.
I guess I don't see those two activities as the same thing. One is entertainment and the other is exercise. I suppose you could argue that paying for an organized form of your preferred sport is entertainment, but I'm still not sure I would agree with that. I think about it more like music. I love live music for entertainment. I don't equate it with my playing the piano.
btw ... I've seen your spin class, remember? I know *exactly* what kind of entertainment it is.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I should be asking you that question. You don't identify with a professional sports team, a religion, a charity, or a political party that I can recall. Is there a group that you would willingly identify with? Is ERE it?Ego wrote:Because group identity can be good does not mean it is always good. Sure, our ability to organize into groups beyond family is advantageous. WRT professional sports, who is doing the organizing and why are they organizing in this particular way? Are there different ways to create in-groups that would be more beneficial? Less harmful?jennypenny wrote: Did you get a chance to read The Righteous Mind? Interesting thoughts on groups in that book, too. I think group identity is a good thing, even with all of its faults.
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I am quietly evangelical about my subtle secularization of the Young Men's Christian Association.
It gives me a reason to live in a way that the Eagles never did.
It gives me a reason to live in a way that the Eagles never did.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
However, there's those can listen to opera and those that can't. Unless it's Gilbert & Sullivan, in which case it's G&S vs. all the others.Ego wrote: That makes us more manipulable. Divide and conquer. Phillies vs. Yankees, Dems vs. Reps, Americans vs. Russians....
As far as I can tell Opera does not do that. Well, except for the Montagues and Capulets.
(Not to mention PDQ Bach vs. the other Bachs)
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I can see that. They've got a much better fight song.Ego wrote:I am quietly evangelical about my subtle secularization of the Young Men's Christian Association.
It gives me a reason to live in a way that the Eagles never did.
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Does it look something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAAzxdBkAdM&feature=kp
And were you the Cowboy or the Indian?
Personally, this is more my style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83I9El6C47A
I need a horn section.
And were you the Cowboy or the Indian?
Personally, this is more my style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83I9El6C47A
I need a horn section.
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Dragline wrote:Does it look something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAAzxdBkAdM&feature=kp
And were you the Cowboy or the Indian?
Personally, this is more my style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83I9El6C47A
I need a horn section.
Similar, but the music is even worse to provoke a reaction.
http://vwvagabonds.com/PrimalScreamTherapy.MOV
I'm probably going to regret this.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Sportscasting meets symphony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXoVo16pTg
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
Yeah, I'm going to file that one under "How to attract your very own spinning harem"
I predict this little clip will make appearances in other threads.
I predict this little clip will make appearances in other threads.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
What I want to know is... are Trekkies suckers?
https://www.facebook.com/17048300300553 ... =3&theater
(I'm the extremely suntanned(*) guy in the back wearing a t-shirt with Picard's head)
(*) That was the year I walked 2x6km every day to the university.---And wore a T-shirt with a captain's head on it.
https://www.facebook.com/17048300300553 ... =3&theater
(I'm the extremely suntanned(*) guy in the back wearing a t-shirt with Picard's head)
(*) That was the year I walked 2x6km every day to the university.---And wore a T-shirt with a captain's head on it.
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I feel we are finally beginning to try to be able to reach a state of extreme catharsis. Now, if I could only find those photos of the Astronomy club . . .
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
That's because the conductor in LA prefers to play prevent I guess. These guys have no trouble playing blitz.Ego wrote: Also, as I said in the other thread, the LA Philharmonic is not organizing into Blitz formation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomRh4Wir2M
Re: are sports fans suckers ?
I swim with a group a few days a week. This morning while we were in the pool a staff member came out of the office and lowered the American flag to half staff. After the swim we were talking about it in the locker room and one of the guys said, "I hope it wasn't a fire crew." Here is SoCal we're experiencing a lot of wildfires. Another guy, this one from Boston, said, "I just assumed they lowered it because my Bruins lost." The entire locker room became silent. He looked around for a moment then spit out, "What? It was like a death for me to watch that."
People can easily lose sight of what is important and what is nonsense when entire cities of grown men are permitted to cry over a puck being flung into a net but not one person outside of immediate family members sheds a tear for the third guy this week to lose a foot to an IED.
On the way out we asked the front desk why the flag was lowered. Today is Peace Officers Memorial Day.
People can easily lose sight of what is important and what is nonsense when entire cities of grown men are permitted to cry over a puck being flung into a net but not one person outside of immediate family members sheds a tear for the third guy this week to lose a foot to an IED.
On the way out we asked the front desk why the flag was lowered. Today is Peace Officers Memorial Day.
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Re: are sports fans suckers ?
At one level, of course, whatever you do is fine. (Jacob’s favorite peeve : post-modernism.)jennypenny wrote:Ok, so from my avatar you can guess my opinion on the matter. Apparently, I ‘waste’ 2 hours every weekend screaming at the Liverpool game. Eh, sue me. I like it and I don’t think I should have to justify it by pointing out that I run more than 2 hours every weekend.
The other thing I don’t get is that sports fans are mocked, but people who attend plays or the opera are seen as ‘cultured’. What’s the difference? It’s still overpaying to sit in a chair and watch some talented people perform.
But you ask : why target Joe Gamewatcher alone as a numbskull? Why shouldn’t that apply to Cecil Operagoer as well? Hadn’t thought about it, actually, but yes, I suppose I do differentiate between those two animals. As also between Gamewatcher and Bookreader (although there obviously points of similarity, all three essentially watch rather than do, at least when in that role). In strictly my own personal opinion, the compulsive Cinemagoer is a close cousin of the inveterate Gamewatcher, although even Cinemagoer would look Einstein-ish standing next to Gamewatcher. I refer, needless to say, only to the actual Gamewatching portion of Gamewatcher’s overall identity, and recognize that it is certainly possible that the same person, while acting like a bit of a dunce in one respect, may well be a veritable genius in another respect (or many other respects).
Watching sports is more like watching a reality show, than like going to the opera or reading a book. (I suppose spectator sport *is* a reality show, literally.) Now I suppose watching a reality show, as a sort of novelty, or as a sort of occasional exercise in observation, may have its legitimate use. But surely you will agree that someone spending hours every week watching reality shows on television is not exactly optimal use of time? (In so much, that is, as we can dictate to another what their optimal use of anything is, which we can’t, but that’s post-modernism making an entry again.) And now if you see someone who not only spends hours every week watching reality shows, but also spends serious money on it, and to cap it all dances around and celebrates and throws parties and goes around talking about it when their favorite reality show character has done well (however reality shows define ‘doing well’), and what is more go around buying overpriced merchandise with that character’s name and face on it, and starts fan clubs, well, wouldn’t you be tempted to gently slip them the name and number of some shrink?
Now no disrespect to you personally, Jenny, or to your avatar/motif, or to your favorite past-time (or, God forbid, to your Team!) : but how is this different?
I am sure there was a time when you, like Jane Doodahbuyer, used to find life’s meaning in buying all kinds of stuff and experiences, and then working your backside off to fund those purchases. At least to some extent. Before you moved to frugality and non-consumerism, and finally to full-blown ERE. Well, why not at least re-examine your emulation of Joe Gamewatcher’s habits as well? I find the very same patterns in both cases, and submit that the game-watching (especially emotionally-invested game-watching) is nothing but consumerism in miniature (replacing actual fulfillment with purchased goods and experiences and stereotyped templates).
If you’ve read what I’ve said earlier, you see that I have no problem with what you choose to do. That we shouldn’t have problems with what others do (except in some cases, but forget that qualification for now), that was precisely what I was saying just a while ago. But you did ask why spectator sports is different from the opera or the theatre, so my 20 cents.
I do realize that I haven’t directly answered your question, which was Why attack just the spectator sports addict? I have only given some analogies, and expressed my own opinion in some detail. But I suspect you already agree with what I’m saying (at least intellectually, and irrespective of whether you actually change your avatar).