Cooking Knives

Fixing and making things, what tools to get and what skills to learn, ...
crazn
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 3:04 am

Post by crazn »

Well, the set of Chicago Cutlery knives that I use was a wedding gift in 1983. They still function very well when sharp and to put it into turkey terms (since tomorrow is Thanksgiving), I probably sharpen a knife after every couple of turkeys or so. I can tell easily if it's time by feeling the edge. I also have a set of four Cutco serrated knives that I use for bread, cheese, cake and the like.


DVDend
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Post by DVDend »

Knives make a trade off between hardness, sharpness, and easiness to sharpen them. Modern knifes are very hard which helps retaining the edge sharpness. But the hardness also makes it very difficult to sharpen them. Old fashioned carbon steel knives are easy to sharpen to extreme sharpness but they need to be sharpened a lot more often as the edge is not retained. Carbon steel knives also get a dark tint to them which may not appeal to everyone.
A good ERE knife: a cheap (chinese?) high carbon knife and a sharpening stone. These will last a lifetime. Highly recomended for sushi for a fine edge really matters.


peterk
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Post by peterk »

Wusthof user here. Quite satisfied. I`d put more consideration into what size knife you want than the brand though. Perhaps 8" if you're mainly cooking single meals. 9" for bigger meals or chopping larger items, 10" if you are a serious chef and need knife efficiency.

I got a 9" personally and think it's about perfect.


hickchick
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Post by hickchick »

I also have some ancient Old Hickory knives. They're the best. I was recently cooking in another kitchen and the thin, cheap, stainless steel knife just about drove me up the wall.


Lepore64
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Post by Lepore64 »

Hey these are all great suggestions but if she wants to "buy the last cutting knife I'll ever need." None of these are it. All of them are going to go dull or break. Even if you keep them sharp, you'll eventually run too deep and have to replace it. They all have the potential to break, stainless is a soft metal but carbon rusts easily.
I think there is only one "last knife you'll ever buy." Cutco, they are the sharpest knives in the world, (see the "How it's Made Video") and they are backed by a forever guarantee. Forever. The guarantee goes with the knife, not the buyer. It's 6 bucks shipping to have the knives repaired or replaced if you ever need it.
They are expensive, so to in keeping with the ERE lifestyle I would keep an eye out for them at garage sales or thrift shops. If you pick up a busted up 25 year old Cutco knife it will be the last one like it that you buy, because they'll replace it with the Forever Guarantee.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

A few months ago I found an expensive-brand chef knife at the swap meet for three dollars. Meh.... it cuts. I could buy fifty of them for the price of one of those Cutco knives.


aptruncata
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Post by aptruncata »

i have a 10 piece wusthof that we got as wedding gift.

we cook 5-6 days a week and it seems to hold its edge very well.

i do sharpen them periodically though and will probably be the last set of knives i'll ever need or buy.


Lepore64
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Post by Lepore64 »

@Ego That's why I suggest keeping your eyes out for them at garage sales and thrift stores ;-)


Haplo
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Post by Haplo »

I decided to do some research into this, and figure this is a good place to put it in case anyone else wants to know in the future.
Anyway, there are several 'tiers' of knife quality, and Japanese knives in general dominate the top tier (and professional chef's kitchens).
Starting from the bottom you have Farberware (wal-mart brand), knives that say "stainless steel" on them (with optional "made in china" in addition), and knives that say "surgical steel". These are all garbage which function better as a bludgeoning instrument than for actually cutting anything. I've actually got a farberware paring knife and some other crappy knives around (which I did not pay for), and they aren't sharp enough to cut you easily, although their dullness can make them dangerous because of the high force needed to cut through foods.
Some baby steps up from that you get the lowest quality of knives that will actually cut things. This includes Kuhn Rikon, Chicago Cutlery, Old Hickory and Cutco. These are generally inexpensive, except for Cutco, who can afford to give you super warrantees and free sharpening because you pay 10 or 20 times what their knives are actually worth upfront. Old Hickory at least makes some very sturdy carving knives which are easy to sharpen and can take a lifetime of abuse. I have two of those around that I use occasionally (they're not mine though), and they're very decent.
A step above those and you're in the actual midrange of functional knives. This includes mostly European brands like Wusthof and Henckel. Although these companies have some "higher end" knives, and a few cooks use them, I've seen some really bad reviews, and actual good cooks avoid these like the plague. Henckel's "international classic" 4 inch paring knife is probably the paring knife that I will buy though, and for $20 you get an excellent and versatile paring/utility knife that is easy to sharpen and will probably last forever. People who have owned them only replace them because they've either been stolen or lost.
At the top of the food chain it is basically exclusively Japanese. Brands include Mac, Global, Shun, Masahiro, and some others I'm not familiar with. The vast majority of good chefs sport Global knives in their kitchens. Global's knives look a bit futuristic-ey, which normally is a sign of low quality garbage, but in the case of the Globals is very practical, easy to clean, and speaks nothing for the obscene sharpness and edge-holding capacity of their knives, and the comfort and ergonomics as well. I think Global's 7 inch santoku is one of those "if you had to own just one knife" kind of knives, and most of their general purpose knives are very excellent. Their boning knife is also excellent, but their yanagi (sashimi knife) and other meat knives are too thin and flimsy for the heavy duty work those knives are intended for.
Surprisingly I've read a LOT of bad things about shun knives. Apparently the "traditional" metal folding technique used to forge them is totally inappropriate for the modern high-alloy steels they are using, which leads to latent stresses in the metal which causes chipping and breaking, especially of the knife tips. Not all shuns will break, but their current return policy is "you break it too bad", which is unacceptable in my eyes wrt a $100+ knife. If you own shuns and they haven't broken yet, then awesome, if not, I'd avoid them. The wavy wood-grain patterns in the metal are cool to look at, just not very practical.
Mac is probably a slight step below global, and masahiro a step up, although all are very expensive. I don't know who makes good meat knives (yet), but I'ma ask a good chef and see what he has to say on the issue. Either way, if you get good JP knives, you will be able to sell them for not much less than what you bought them for, should you decide to do so. For home use, any of the knives I've said anything good about will last probably as long as you do. Obviously professional chefs put a lot more strain on their equipment, and can wear them out in 5 years (or less with worse treatment). Also avoid knives that have dimples in the sides (including JP knives) as these are more expensive (unrightfully so) and the dimples act more like suction cups than anything else when it comes to food sticking to the knife.
Caring for knives:
All knives should be sharpened on a natural whetstone. This should be done about once a month for home use, and about once a week in a professional kitchen. Synthetic whetstones are too abrasive and in addition to yielding a lower quality of sharpness, they can damage your blade edge unnecessarily quickly. You can get a good fine grit natural whetstone for ~$50 at onescytherevolution.com, which you can use to sharpen everything you use, and which should last as long as your knives do. You may want a medium grit stone as well, though these are substantially cheaper. European knives should be ground at a 20 degree angle, whereas JP knives use harder steels and are sharpened to 15 degrees. Occasionally even good quality knives will come out of the factory with a dull edge, so make sure you have the means to sharpen before or coincident with getting the knives themselves.
You also need to "hone" the knives regularly, which is basically a maintenance fine sharpening done often (perhaps daily) between use. European knives should be honed on an ultra-fine grit diamond steel, at the same angle as sharpening. JP knives can be honed this way, but as their blades are thinner and more razor-like, it is preferred to use a razor strop. Honing on a steel is edge-forward, whereas stropping is edge-back, leading with the spine of the blade. Give each knife 6-12 passes on each side before and/or after use. You can get a good extra-fine grit (which is the only appropriate grit for honing) diamond steel for ~$30, and an ultra-fine-grit strop runs about the same (no need to buy wusthof or global for this). If you were to only go for one, I'd go for the steel. If you keep your blades well honed, they will need sharpening less often, and then only with a finer grit. You can't hone or sharpen a serrated blade, just FYI, and trying may damage or ruin your sharpening tools.
You should buy a cutting board, either wood or plastic. I recommend at least 18" x 24", for safety and keeping the food from flying away and onto the floor (wasted food still costs money, and I'm the worst at stuff flying off the knife). Materials like ceramics (plates), stone, metal etc are too hard and will dull and even break your expensive knives long before their time. You can get a wood cutting board from wal-mart (whatever is cheapest) for $15 and under. Always hand wash your knives (what good is a dishwasher anyway?) and dry them immediately afterwards. Don't use knives for jobs that are tougher than what they were designed for. I've heard of people (easily) cutting a whole chicken in half with a Global santoku, but that sort of thing is very hard on a knife that isn't designed as a cleaver. If you don't take proper care of your things you won't get your full money's worth. Simple.
I also strongly suggest checking out some chef's videos on youtube to find out the proper technique for safely using knives. A good knife used badly is certain bleeding. A good knife used well is safer than a cheap dull knife, as you will use less force in cutting and will have more control.


KevinW
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Post by KevinW »

@Haplo

Thanks for posting this. I've been meaning to do this kind of research, and now I don't need to.


Haplo
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:43 pm

Post by Haplo »

No problem, but don't count my chickens yet. That was amazon and youtube research, and since I posted that I've run across a site from a real knife geek who knows much more about proper knife care, knife steels and so on than what I found before. Some of that stuff was reasonably accurate, and some of it I've got a lot better and more precise info on. I've also found a few screaming deals on awesome knives.
Bleh I can't edit that post anymore, so I guess it'll have to go here.
First, be sure to check out www.zknives.com. This guy is a true knife geek and knows his stuff. Start with knife articles and then you can move on to knife reviews and sharpener reviews and things.
Some basics on knife steels:

Different steels used in knives will yield different performances as far as the sharpness of edge angle you can put on it, how well it will hold its sharpness, corrosion resistance and toughness against strains. These can be grouped into stain-resistant steels and non-stain-resistant steels. Stain-resistant steels generally offer resistance against chemical corrosion which your knife will be exposed to cutting different foods (eg lemons etc). Non-stain-resistant (also called "Carbon steel") lack this resistance but instead can sport much higher hardness ratings and hold sharper edges for longer. With proper knife care there is little practical difference in terms of corrosion. The primary attributes that make a good knife steel are hardness (measured in rockwell hardness; HRC) and toughness.
Good stain resistant steels include the XCrMoV series used in every Henckel, Wusthof, Messermeister and other european higher end knives. Every Wusthof and Henckel knife uses the same steel, although they're quite happy to charge you obscene prices for their "high end" gear. All of these knives have an HRC of 54-56, where 1 point of HRC is in practical terms 20% improvement (or 20% worse) edge holding ability. A harder knife blade cannot only hold a sharper edge, but also hold that edge longer during use (within limitations). Most western knives come out of the box with a 40-45 degree angle on the blade (20-22.5 degrees per side), which is not very sharp. With a good convex edge you could probably grind slightly less than 40 degrees on them, but that's still not very sharp. I recommend getting a good cheap Wusthof or Henckel for sharpening practice :P.
Above that you have CROMOVA18, which is used in all Global knives, and also Mac Cutlery, but Mac cutlery can't manage a reliable heat treatment on their products and is worth avoiding. CROMOVA18 generally has a hardness of 56-58HRC, which is a solid level above European knives. Globals can hold 30 degree angles (15 per side) which is substantially sharper than European knives, but below most other Japanese blades.
Above that you have VG10, which is used in Fallkniven's knives, as well as some high end Japanese knives like Tojiro and Shun. VG10 has an HRC of 59-62 (depending on manufacturer treatment), the highest of most common stain-resistant steels. Ironically, many of Fallkniven knives at 59HRC, and Tojiro DP series at 60HRC are the same price as Global's 57-58HRC knives. Fallkniven puts a teflon coating on their knives, which sucks, whereas Tojiro makes really consistently high quality stuff. Tojiro flash series knives are also VG10, but hardened to 62HRC(!), higher than any other manufacturer uses on that steel. Flash series is very expensive, but I have yet to find a paring knife of a similar quality within that price range or under. All of these knives 60HRC (tojiro DP) and above can hold a 24 degree (12 per side) angle. 24 degrees is pretty much screaming sharp, and will shave hairs easily. Masahiro also uses some sort of proprietary VG10 variant, but it's on the softer end of 58-60HRC, and overpriced at that.
Then you have carbon steels, which include some specialized Japanese knife steels like Aogami I/II and Shirogami, as well as some Powdered Metallurgy (PM) steels. These steels have a minimum of 61HRC, and are often hardened to 65HRC and above. They require that you keep the blade well wiped during and after use, and that you hand wash and dry it (like all knives..) immediately when finished, but they can hold screaming sharp edges quite easily, and for a long time. Most knives made from these steels are $150 and up, but there are a few good deals you can find on them. On www.epicedge.com I found some Kobayashi knives, although only shorter knives like a 7" Santoku, that are Aogami II (61-63HRC, extra tough) with a stain-resistant jacket that they're practically giving away at the same price as a global santoku. They also have a 63HRC cobalt-steel (stain-resistant) vegetable chopping knife, which can hold an 18 degree edge, for the same price ($90). IMHO Kobayashi knives are works of art, well designed in every way, rough-finished sides that shed food slices, superb blades, superb (although simple) handles, and unlike the more expensive Tojiro Flash knives, they simply have "Kobayashi" in Kanji in mirrored steel along the spine. They're not so show-offish (the tojiro flash stamp looks info-mercial lame), and almost zen in their simplicity and utilitarianism.
On knife care:

Again, go read www.zknives.com on how to not abuse your knives. I don't want to repeat all that here. However, for a basic knife maintenance kit I've changed my opinion on some things. If you take proper care of your (good) knives, they'll last you decades. Also, bear in mind that 99% of chefs are basically clueless when it comes to knife care. Chefs can teach you knife safety well though! (also recommended)
For sharpening stones, firstly I still recommend natural stones, but from different sources. Personally I intend to do all of my bevel work on a 1000 grit natural stone from www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com. 1000 grit is "slow" compared to what most people use, but it won't scrape up your edges like coarser grits will, and makes it much easier to mirror polish which is very important with getting a really hard steel really sharp. Also, a slow stone with good feedback gives you more room for error and makes precision work easier overall.
Following that, at minimum will be a 6000 grit "Awase to" stone from www.japanwoodworker.com. 4000 grit is the minimum for getting good cutting and slicing performance, and 6000 is about the minimum for shaving hair.
Optionally, following that you can move to 1 micron (roughly 12,000 grit) diamond powder loaded onto a leather bench strop. Just spray it on, wait for it to dry, and then have at it as you would a regular strop. A good 3"x10" leather strop is $15 on ebay, and diamond spray is about $23 at www.wickededgeusa.com. Diamond spray lasts quite a while and you don't even need to spray it every time you use the loaded strop. You will need a separate strop for diamond and for plain leather.
Finally, I rescind my previous recommendation to get a honing steel. Overall, a plain leather strop, used after sharpening and before and after every use is far more appropriate for kitchen knives, and also easier to use. With a good knife you may only need to touch it up on either a diamond loaded strop or a 6000 grit stone maybe once or twice per month, and the use of an abrasive rod every time is simply not practical (and wears down your knives faster). Most of the time plain leather will be all you need, and plus they're generally cheaper than a honing rod.
May every knife in your collection be unique :).
UPDATE: Also check out "Carter Cutlery" on youtube. He has a lot of cool knife videos and good sharpening instructionals.


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