FI with regular income?

[delay]

Thanks for your journal update. From What should my savings rate be?:

If you save 70% of your income, you can take 2 years and 4 months off every time you work 1 year.

Spending of 772 euro a month is awesome for Denmark! What part of that is used to have a place to live?

[urgud]

My rent is approximately 330 EUR including water, heat and electricity.

[urgud]

In the interest of not polluting other journals, I'll keep my spite to my own journal:

For a forum supposedly about life involving other stuff than work, it really does seem like talking about work is a major pastime here. What happened to just putting in your hours and then going home to have fun?

Perhaps this tendency to drone on about your job is a common predicament for the professional managerial class in the US (and to a lesser extent elsewhere). You think the plumber goes home and belabors his wife with vivid stories of the particularly intransigent pieces of excrement he had to deal with today? Somehow I doubt it.

In other news, I've been mulling over the concept of reproducibility as it pertains to this thing of ours. One irreproducible aspect of my life is that I pay something like 30% of the median rental price, and this to a large extent enables a high savings rate. An equivalent reproducible price could only be achieved by living in a podunk town. On the other hand, I consider my wage fairly reproducible: it's either at or below the median. I would consider salaries way above the median to be likewise irreproducible.

As has been discussed before on this forum, both approaches have their own strengths and weaknesses: with the regular money lean approach, there's not much more fat to cut; OTOH, it's fairly resilient since getting a median wage job is not an impossible task. With a big money job, the numbers work out if you just live like a regular person, so there is a lot of potential resilience in still being able to downsize from median lifestyle consumption to fully optimized living, should the situation call for it. The downside is of course the irreproducibility of high wage jobs, golden handcuffs, psychic damage and exhaustion, only being able to talk about your job etc etc.

The regularly scheduled programming of monthly updates for March, April and May should be posted sometime in June I think.

[thef0x]

In the interest of not polluting other journals, I'll keep my spite to my own journal:

For a forum supposedly about life involving other stuff than work, it really does seem like talking about work is a major pastime here. What happened to just putting in your hours and then going home to have fun?

Perhaps this tendency to drone on about your job is a common predicament for the professional managerial class in the US (and to a lesser extent elsewhere). You think the plumber goes home and belabors his wife with vivid stories of the particularly intransigent pieces of excrement he had to deal with today? Somehow I doubt it.

I think there are levels of one's relationship to "work".

Plenty of folks here are in a place where they are not excited about work and have an antagonistic relationship to their job. Sounds like this might describe you well.

But there are quite a few folks here who are working because they want to as part of their web of goals. They are choosing to work with the freedom not to. They enjoy the side hustle, something from nothing, contribution/charity, leaving a legacy through impact, they just like their coworkers, on and on.

Jacob "works" on moderating this forum, nurturing this community. Ego hits swap meets regularly, finding art or furniture to resell. MountainFrugal had a recent launch of an art studio he's created with a partner and teaches classes alongside other colleagues. I continue to work to contribute to environmental tech investment and STEM education for children. I don't think any of us are doing it for money alone, but surely we're happy to pick a homeotelic pattern of behavior that does produce monetary abundance and freedom alongside the pursuit of our existing interests.

I read through all of your posts on this thread and it appears that they're all about money. To move into alignment with your comment, maybe your journal should be mostly about the "going home to have fun" part of your life.

TBH I think a lot of us find these topics (work, money, balance) interesting, as well as everything fun we get to do through our intentional pursuits, so certainly they seem relevant to this community. It all comes down to your web of goals and pursuing them with intentionality. Why should work be off limits?, put differently.

Perhaps it could be useful to get creative about your conundrum by asking questions: I find myself in a place where I'd think everyone who "made it" would not be "working" and yet people are still working. This seems at odds with my understanding of this whole project. Am I misunderstanding something?

I think you're right to some degree and I don't mean to be rude in pushing back on your impression of this community, plenty of folks are griping about their hating their jobs. But to be honest, I think those are very much a minority of journals and threads on this forum. I see so many people engaging in interesting, inspiring, creative, and challenging pursuits on this forum that it really blows my mind; this community is remarkable. I hope you can find those spaces here and for yourself as well.

And as Ghandi says, be the change you want to see in the world.

[delay]

In other news, I've been mulling over the concept of reproducibility as it pertains to this thing of ours. One irreproducible aspect of my life is that I pay something like 30% of the median rental price, and this to a large extent enables a high savings rate. An equivalent reproducible price could only be achieved by living in a podunk town. On the other hand, I consider my wage fairly reproducible: it's either at or below the median. I would consider salaries way above the median to be likewise irreproducible.

One thing about median salary is that it's a national statistic. Lives are so different, depending on family, character type, education, work experience. Some people earn 3x the median without breaking a sweat. They quit their job confident they'll find another 3x median job and succeed. Other people cannot seem to earn money at all.

The front page of Early Retirement Extreme has a 21-day makeover in the sidebar to the left. Interestingly it starts with "Day 1: Finding a place to live". Jakob suggests a room where you share a kitchen with other people. It seems to me that's a reproducible way to get to 30% of the median rental price, what do you think?

[zbigi]

Perhaps this tendency to drone on about your job is a common predicament for the professional managerial class in the US (and to a lesser extent elsewhere). You think the plumber goes home and belabors his wife with vivid stories of the particularly intransigent pieces of excrement he had to deal with today? Somehow I doubt it.

You'd be surprised. I live in a city with vivid mining traditions, going back to XIV century. During their leisure tme, the miners talk a lot about what's going on in the mine, what are the current technical problems, how they're treated unfairly etc. Similarly, pensioners, when they gather together e.g. for fishing, talk over various situations that happened in the mines years ago.

[jacob]

You think the plumber goes home and belabors his wife with vivid stories of the particularly intransigent pieces of excrement he had to deal with today? Somehow I doubt it.

Admittedly only a sample size of one, but one of the in-laws is actually a plumber and every time we meet, it's all he ever talks about. It's not always vivid stories about toilets. Sometimes it's also about installing faucets, shower heads, kitchen sinks, ...

Conversely, I never talked about work at home. Most of it was too technical for anyone else to understand and some of it was also subject to non-disclosures and security reviews. Actually, when physicists get together socially they rarely if ever talk shop; instead it's about institutional issues like teaching load, a broken office heater, grant proposals, ... people are so specialized that they rarely have more than a vague idea about the decimal points that their colleagues are working on improving.

Whether someone talks about work or anything else for that matter comes down to two or three things. 1) Does it make for a good story? 2) Does anyone else care? 3) Do you care? Exploding toilets usually check all three boxes.

[urgud]

I admit it's probably only natural to want to talk about what you spend most of your time on. And you guys are absolutely right that miners, plumbers, pilots, railroaders and what have you also love talking about work outside of work... It's a whole culture I suppose. I guess I just came to the conclusion that The Job wasn't going to save me or provide me with Meaning. I prefer to seek that in non-commercial spheres of life.

@delay: in Denmark at least, this is an almost extinct form of habitation outside of student housing and definitely not available as a regular option on the open market.

@thef0x: I'd actually say I'm pretty fine with my job. I'm migrating to the Gervaisian Loser category, and it suits me rather well. As to your remaining points: I try to maximize the amount of time spent on the the things I actually assign value to: relationships, nature, health, art, spontaneity, taking it slow, etc. I can barely imagine having to spend time thinking about toxic office politics or my employer's POV. If at all, those thoughts can be processed within the span of the workday, since I am not compensated for thinking about work outside of work, I try to avoid it.

[zbigi]

It also comes down to the axiology (to use a big word) of work. It used to be more common for people to identify themselves as workers, and thus take pride in working hard, in supporting their fellow workers etc. People risked their livelihoods and sometimes even lives in strikes. However, over the past 50 years, this ethos got progresively crushed across the word, and instead replaced with a depressing view of work as merely a financial transaction. No wonder people now want to reduce the amount of work they do, and make as much money as possible while working - it's the logical conclusion of the current paradigm.

[jacob]

https://www.amazon.com/Gamesman-New-Cor ... 0671223534 or https://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-gamesme.html

[urgud]

@zbigi: I think even to this day, people have a tendency to throw themselves on the metaphorical grenade, at least in certain sectors. And honestly, a lot of institutions wouldn't be functional if they couldn't rely on people going above and beyond due to some (misplaced) sense of duty.

[suomalainen]

I've thought of it in terms of "the rise of the middle class". People in poverty really have no options. Add better education, better health, better communication systems to share knowledge and experience, better legal rights/protections and what you end up having is a worker class better positioned to push back on rapacious capitalists/bosses. In other words, the workers are now in power to do the same shit the bosses have done for millenia. And it's super funny to me when bosses complain about it. Why would I go "above and beyond" to enrich you when you refuse to share any of those spoils with me? Now that our (workers') lives generally aren't at stake in employment "negotiations", it does boil down to "just a transaction". Want me to act like an owner? Pay me like one.

[zbigi]

Why would I go "above and beyond" to enrich you when you refuse to share any of those spoils with me? Now that our (workers') lives generally aren't at stake in employment "negotiations", it does boil down to "just a transaction". Want me to act like an owner? Pay me like one.

This isn't working that well, though - the employers aren't paying more. The often quoted statistics is that, in real terms, US wages haven't grown for 50 years. It might be that the companies actually have people right where they want them - imaging they're empowered, where in reality they're atomised and on the losing end of a power struggle.

[thef0x]

To your point, many folks definitely get mired in the process of working toward FIRE without cultivating a life worth retiring to (MMM, fatFIRE, etc don't really emphasize this, surprisingly). That's a big part of why ERE is so appealing, imo: it aims to move the needle on both work and "life" (not-work) simultaneously, pre/post-FIRE.

Eventually one gets to a point where the distinction between "work" and "life" becomes meaningless (WL8+); you're simply doing what you want to be doing and you're probably compensated for it (money, food, friendship, goods, services, health, knowledge, experiences, building a better future/impact).

I try to maximize the amount of time spent on the the things I actually assign value to: relationships, nature, health, art, spontaneity, taking it slow, etc.

I'd love to hear more about this part of your life, selfishly, because I find said posts quite inspiring.

Are you making art or mostly consuming it? Any favorites?

[suomalainen]

@zbigi that may be the cause of "lying flat" and "quiet quitting". The only real lesson of economics is that incentives matter. tinstaafl.

[urgud]

March 2024:

Income: 2713 EUR
Expenses: 1165 EUR
Savings rate: 57.06%

I opted to purchase a portable version of a common household appliance (around 250 EUR) in order to counteract my landlord jacking up prices. Haven't calculated how long I'd have to use it for it to break even, but possibly within 1-2 years.

April 2024:

Income: 5600 EUR
Expenses: 993 EUR
Savings rate: 82.27%

A rather sizable gift from a relative.

May 2024:

Income: 3164 EUR
Expenses: 2987 EUR
Savings rate: 5.59%

Went traveling for most of May. 7 countries, probably close to 10,000 km (!) of overland transportation. If I were to continue this kind of travel in the coming years, I'd probably mix in more hiking/camping (right to roam!), possibly doing different bits of the Camino, the Scottish highlands or northern Norway. However, I am still undecided on whether I want more of it, so I'm also attempting to materialize an urban gardening-type situation, but as with most things here, it's based on a waitlist system.

Health: honestly not entirely sure how I'm feeling. To be honest, pretty tired, most of the time. And I live a pretty unencumbered and stress-free existence, so I have to chalk it up to my chronic condition.

@thef0x: I am purely a consumer of art. Currently, I mostly attend my friends' various art/music performances. Impro jazz/punk/pop stuff mostly. Honestly, it is a nice fusion of art appreciation, building a community and being easy on the wallet. I also built a lean-to shelter, partially for public use (kinda hard to control who uses it anyway); it is a bit hard to reach without a car though, so I don't get to use it as often as I'd like.

[urgud]

June 2024:

Income: 2820 EUR
Expenses: 1124 EUR
Savings rate: 60.14%

July 2024:

Income: 2874 EUR
Expenses: 1434 EUR
Savings rate: 50.1%

I can also present my first TTM statistics (Aug23-July24):

Income: 37813 EUR
Expenses: 18727 EUR
Savings rate: 50.47%

[urgud]

I humbly seek the advice of the members of this forum on an issue that has been on my mind for some time. I am looking into some unavoidable housing-related expenses, on the order of ~20k EUR, within the next year, by all appearances. It is an expense related to plumbing, which will add to the value of my housing unit, and which will be depreciated over 25 years IIRC. As I see it, I have two or three different options:

Option 1) Pay off the loan over a fixed term of 25 years attached to the rent I pay for the place. I expect a variable APR, starting around 6-7%. The monthly payments should be approximately 140 EUR, with the loan interest being roughly 25% tax deductible.

Option 2) Take out a separate loan for 20k EUR, variable APR ~7%, 8 year term, with the loan interest being roughly 33% tax deductible. Sock all available money into redeeming the loan early. Should be doable within 1.5 to 2 years.

Option 3) Pay the 20k cash. Assuming I get enough time to save up this amount of cash.

I have never had debt before, so I am not entirely used to thinking through the pros and cons of using debt as a tool.

Option 1 leaves me minimally exposed to the risk of the housing association going bankrupt. In addition, it may be easier to sell my housing unit share as the sticker price will be lower (although the monthly rent will be higher). On the other hand, it will entail higher cash flow requirements for the next 25 years, a fact which I greatly dislike.

Options 2 and/or 3 limit the amount of interest paid to the absolute minimum. This feels psychologically satisfying, as does the possibility of securing a very, very low rent (<100 EUR/month) for many years to come. I do not expect to move from this place, and it makes up a significant node in my web of goals. Conversely, options 2 and 3 leave me "out of the market", as I will be plunging all available cash into paying off/for this expense.

I guess I am looking for any and all advice: psychological, financial or otherwise. I am trying to mentally account for expenses which don't last forever, but only for a fixed term (e.g. 25 years), as well as to compare them to upfront capital costs.

[loutfard]

From a financial perspective, paying 6-7% on a loan is generally a losing proposition versus using available cash outright. ~5% nominal or ~3% real is usually the cutoff. That's a gross simplification of course. It's ignoring the risk the housing coop might fall over. You might have cash flow issues coming up with the cash required, or unique-to-you investment opportunities reliably yielding far more than 6-7%, or other issues.

If I understand correctly, you have a quite unique deal for a place to live. It seems like options two or three would work really well in your situation.

[suomalainen]

Unless you have a better use for cash (psychological consideration), paying off debt as soon as you can is generally the better financial consideration. Looking at debt from the "monthly payment" perspective is generally where the mistake is made.