Early Retirement Extreme Forums

WFJ wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:43 am

What I still have a hard time understanding is why more people don't just travel cheaply in 3-4 countries rather than pay to obtain permanence in one country (assuming one does not have kids).

People who pay for permanence, in my experience, don't do it to travel, to experience new environments and cultures, or to enrich themselves as people in any way. They'd much rather have stayed in middle of nowhere Murika if only it were cheaper. They go to whatever country it is they choose, and they try to replicate the murikan "middle class" lifestyle, complete with burying themselves in consumer crap, bitching and moaning about how stupid the locals are, and being frustrated at how no one does things "properly."The, Idiots: why can't anyone get you a proper iced coke in this country?, crowd.

They don't want to move every 3 months because moving every 3 months requires you to let go of your hoard of consumer crap, and it requires thought - where to go, how to find accommodation, etc -- and it requires flexibility, which these folks don't have. What they do have is the desire to drink cheaply with their 2 other "expat" drinking buddies and complain about how stupid the locals are. Oh and about the libtards -- as an expat, I've met multiple older Americans and Canadians, but especially Americans, who haven't lived in North America in 20+ years but would spew spittle complaining about American politics, as told to them by fox news.

Complaining makes them feel superior. Their entire existence is cheap beer and finding someone to look down on.

ertyu wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:51 pm

People who pay for permanence, in my experience, don't do it to travel, to experience new environments and cultures, ...

Well, obviously they don't. They may pay for [permanence] to enrich themselves doing activities that take longer than 3-4 months to finish (before the visa runs out); aren't mobile enough to fit in a piece of luggage; or isn't easily rented or enjoyed during an "2x8 hour experience weekend" for the tourist class. For example, growing a garden, learning a 1000+-hour skill (especially one that requires equipment), joining seasonal sports-teams, starting a real (not online) business, pets, being/having good neighbors, ... and even qualifying for a library card. Perhaps we can agree that not everything on someone's bucket list fits in a carry-on?

WFJ wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:47 am

but seizing assets from citizens is not one of them

Except gold?

Western Red Cedar wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:26 pm

The Millenial Revolution website has posts about working holiday visas and non-lucrative visas that could work well depending on your circumstance. Whenever I travel to British Columbia I see loads of people from commonwealth countries working near the tourist locations. I'm assuming they are using a working holiday visa.

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... e-90-days/

A similar experience to above is what started my thoughts. I assumed there were maybe ten steps that would maybe take an hour a piece to obtain some kind of a long-term residence in a few countries, but learned quickly that there are closer to 20 steps and after an afternoon not completing even step one, switched plans.

liberty wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:41 pm

Except gold?

This is why my gold is stored inside my ammo and will be generously distributed at 1500 fps to all Federal agents who wish to "liberate" my asses for face crimes, thought crimes and failing to adhere to some COVID/Climate/Russian hysteria or other.

unemployable wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:06 am

Barriers to entry — the literal kind but the soft kind too. Having to find lodging every time, hoping you understand the language and the customs around finding lodging and aren't getting taken and so on. I guess this is easier nowadays with airbnb, but that tends to be more expensive, trading convenience for cost.

Yep, more of a slow travel experience than a road warrior, which is a grind. It comes down to the cost. The cost of permanence is higher than many individuals budget for living. $3500 to spend 6-8 more months in one country can afford a nice lifestyle in some developed countries, countryside Japan is quite cheap and US citizens can show up, stay for 90 days for free. In my limited sporadic international experiences, developing and maintaining a community is low seasons is harder than starting fresh somewhere else during high season, more people with common interests in high season, more locals in low seasons.

WFJ wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:48 am

Has anyone been a somewhat permanent nomad for a time period of 1-5 years and have any experiences (good or bad)?

This may not be exactly the info that you are asking for, but I lived in a village in the Balkans with the Peace Corps for 2 years out of college, coupled with some extensive tourist travel around Eastern Europe, for a total of about 2.5 years abroad. I enjoyed the experience, on the whole, and what I enjoyed most was that it was long term enough--2 years in the same apartment, with the same "job," shopping at the same market, drinking coffee at the same cafe, hanging with the same group of locals, making the same occasional runs into the closest town for provisions and to catch a movie and hit up the late-night scene, learning to eat and drink by the seasons, etc.--that I wasn't a weeklong tourist, but it was short enough to be clear that, ultimately, I was just passing through before heading back "home."

A lot of the folks that were in my Peace Corps class continued on with the itchy feet, permanent nomad thing, joining the foreign service or one of the many international NGOs that cater to the "anywhere but home" version of the highly educated. And several others stayed in country and are there still, a few decades later. I thought about doing the former but thankfully as I was preparing to do that I reconnected with my high school girlfriend and got married and started preparing for a life of permanence. When we were younger (in our 30s) my wife and I would think about perhaps doing something like the Peace Corps when the kids are out of the house, as it is not uncommon (or at least it wasn't way back when) for married empty nesters to do the Peace Corps together. But now in my 40s neither of us can even fathom that we thought that might be a good idea.

I don't want to misinterpret @Jacob:

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:05 pm

Well, obviously they don't. They may pay for [permanence] to enrich themselves doing activities that take longer than 3-4 months to finish (before the visa runs out); aren't mobile enough to fit in a piece of luggage; or isn't easily rented or enjoyed during an "2x8 hour experience weekend" for the tourist class. For example, growing a garden, learning a 1000+-hour skill (especially one that requires equipment), joining seasonal sports-teams, starting a real (not online) business, pets, being/having good neighbors, ... and even qualifying for a library card. Perhaps we can agree that not everything on someone's bucket list fits in a carry-on?

But, the stuff on our bucket list now are all things for which any sort of travel would be counterproductive, apart from extended weekend visits to see family for holidays, weddings and funerals, etc.

So, all that is to say, have you considered something like a Peace Corps or one of the other mission-related options out there. I seem to remember there being a "JET" program, teaching English in Japan; certainly there are other sorts of options where an organization would handle the paperwork and give you a "purpose" apart from just being a covet-or, consuming someone else's culture and folkways--I can certainly understand a person not necessarily wanting their "purpose" to be spreading 'Murica far and wide through the Peace Corps, but I suspect there are alternatives.

Hristo Botev wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:23 am

So, all that is to say, have you considered something like a Peace Corps or one of the other mission-related options out there. I seem to remember there being a "JET" program, teaching English in Japan; certainly there are other sorts of options where an organization would handle the paperwork and give you a "purpose" apart from just being a covet-or, consuming someone else's culture and folkways--I can certainly understand a person not necessarily wanting their "purpose" to be spreading 'Murica far and wide through the Peace Corps, but I suspect there are alternatives.

My sister did a lot of that. There are "volunteer" works for many types of unskilled labor where a company or organization arranges/provides a job, cheap room and board, and maybe even a small allowance (~$50/week which can go pretty far in a country where a restaurant breakfast is $2) and the travel cost in exchange for free labor. E.g. teaching English, house sitting, care-taking, farm work, construction, serving food, tourist guide, etc. Usually the attraction is traveling to far-away or fancy places without paying much more than a plane ticket.

The potential downside is that the work is unskilled and unpaid and that the only one's who seem willing to do that is a certain type of adventurous 20-something who hasn't decided on an education, vocation, or location. Nothing wrong with that per se... other than it does limit the kind of social connections one can make in the long run... which is perhaps why such long runs are rare.

jacob wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 am

The potential downside is that the work is unskilled and unpaid and that the only one's who seem willing to do that is a certain type of adventurous 20-something who hasn't decided on an education, vocation, or location. Nothing wrong with that per se... other than it does limit the kind of social connections one can make in the long run... which is perhaps why such long runs are rare.

It was not lost on me at the time that even those folks who made the itchy feet thing a permanent career--foreign service and other other folks connected to the embassy in some way or another (Peace Corps, USAID, DoD, etc.), int'l NGO types, consulting types and even miners (we had an Australian gold mining family living in our town)--all still had permanence of a sort in their various expat communities. Once you get past the adventurous 20-somethings' stage of life and keep at the itchy feet thing by finding a career that allows you to keep moving around in a higher paid and more skilled setting, seems to me you end up just being part of an expat culture; you're most certainly not "part of" whatever local culture/community you happen to be living in at any given time.

2Birds1Stone wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:51 am

Covid was a proof that ease of movement can easily be restricted,

It was severely limited, but certain economies are so dependent on tourism that they became "sanctuary areas" for the nomads. And the situation was highly reflected in the cost. IOW nomadic lifestyles, though more limited, were ridiculously cheap in the geopolitical areas that became sanctuaries. Additionally, it was a fun unique experience, because Nomads congregated to these places. The other cultures came to me in the sanctuaries... It was an interesting time I wouldn't mind repeating (From a nomad standpoint).

2Birds1Stone wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:51 am

every day tasks are somewhat more involved in foreign countries, sense of community is harder to establish. If you keep returning to the same place/people in these 3-4 countries regularly, some of these issues start to matter less I suppose.

Yes.

ertyu wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:51 pm

People who pay for permanence, in my experience, don't do it to travel, Complaining makes them feel superior. Their entire existence is cheap beer and finding someone to look down on.

Sometimes people just fall in love with other culture(s). I mean, yes you have the asshole who wants cheap living, but wants it to be the same as "home", but this is not the majority, IMO. Most slow travelers stay in an area specifically because they love something about it which is different than "home"

jacob wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:46 am

The potential downside is that the work is unskilled and unpaid and that the only one's who seem willing to do that is a certain type of adventurous 20-something who hasn't decided....

Skilled labor is also highly sought after almost anywhere in the world... How did you end up in the US @jacob? more than unskilled methinks.

Anyway, point being, if the goal is to find new cultures and experiment, using skills as a gateway to intermediate slow travel a great way to do it. Plus you'll probably get paid more than a tiny stipend.

classical_Liberal wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:19 pm

Skilled labor is also highly sought after almost anywhere in the world... How did you end up in the US @jacob? more than unskilled methinks.

We're talking a sufficiently high skill level to be "hired from abroad" and it typically comes with the stipulation that the position can not be filled by a similarly qualified domestic applicant. Typically, this means phds/expert-specialists, intra-company transfers, and vocations that has a severe deficiency like e.g. programmers in the US. A random college or masters degree won't do it. One can't just show up at the border looking for skilled work as far as I know. This also mean that the number of countries that are open to this approach tend to be limited indeed. E.g. does one's transnational company have a presence in that country? Treaties like the EU or NAFTA make it possible to "just show up", but such treaties are limited to the local continent in range.

I don't think this quite compares to kind of travel OP had in mind. Unless one makes a special effort, one is more likely to join the "expat"-community that HB mentioned as one relocates around the world. The reason is that most such specialists work 60-100 hour weeks and mainly associate with other people, who also happen to be expats, at work. Home is just for sleeping and maybe cooking. At each of the four (3 physics, 1 high finance) jobs I worked internationally there were more foreigners on the "team/group" than locals. Think of it as a cosmopolitan world where the location of the office is just incidental and you basically hang out with the same crowd which tours around the world from job to job.

1. Isn't the OP already FI and not seeking employment abroad when they are talking about nomadism?

2. There seems to be a certain blindspot that to work (abroad or otherwise), you have to be employed by some company? What about those who work on their own, in short contracts or have their own business/activity or activities? Salaryman is not the only possibility. And even in that quadrant, WFH has somewhat broadened the possibilities.

OutOfTheBlue wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:59 pm

1. Isn't the OP already FI and not seeking employment abroad when they are talking about nomadism?

I can’t imagine how miserable it would be to just be a long term “eat pray love” tourist; the creepy guy who reliably shows up for a solo early dinner each night at his favorite (whatever the local speciality) restaurant is, where he has the same waitress that in his warped mind he thinks wants something more than his consistently high tips (in a country where tipping is not normal). You need a purpose for being there, and if that purpose is just writing the great American novel or updating a gag-inducing blog, well, there is a reason why The Sun Also Rises is insufferable.

[Deleted]

Portugal seems to have had enough of rich immigrants:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ ... 023-02-16/

ducknald_don wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:29 am

Portugal seems to have had enough of rich immigrants:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ ... 023-02-16/

Good. I really hope they get serious about providing affordable housing for Portuguese.

jacob wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:15 pm

We're talking a sufficiently high skill level to be "hired from abroad" and it typically comes with the stipulation that the position can not be filled by a similarly qualified domestic applicant. Typically, this means phds/expert-specialists, intra-company transfers, and vocations that has a severe deficiency

jacob wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:15 pm

I don't think this quite compares to kind of travel OP had in mind.

The above may be true. But it doesn't change my opinion that there is more availability for skilled employment beyond unskilled college kid volunteer and Phd in physics. Certainly most likely large pay-scale differences, certainly specific high demand skills are ideal. Cultural and language skills helpful. However, If this is a lifestyle choice, (ie slow migration to other cultures/countries) than a person should "pick smart" in the skills they invest time into. Maybe look at a web of goals or some such craziness to maximize for travel over money.

We should ask the people doing this in the "middling" categories... like @sepia, @luxagaf. I'm only considering picking up work abroad. I think their skill levels rise above high school grad, but maybe not quite to the level of world renowned phd Physicist.

I'm not sure if this is exactly what OP is talking about, but I know of numerous people who have lived a certain type of nomadic lifestyle. Generally, it involves jobs in austere conditions*, although that's not always the case. For example, the US government hires a ton of contractors (really the gov't pays the contract to a company for specific services, then that company goes out and hires employees to do the job). These are offered for a wide range of career fields from the relatively unskilled (janitorial, sanitation, drivers, etc) all the way up to skilled (IT, doctors, lawyers, etc). Usually, these jobs exist because the contractor is required to hire American for certain positions, although that's not always the case. These could be contracts for various government agencies in any place that the US government has some presence (which is most of the world). Although I don’t have any direct experience, I think this is also the case for many large US multinationals. My understanding is other industries like mining work in a similar way. There is also long-haul shipping like cargo ships, travel like cruise ships, and many other fields that operate more on short-term contractual basis. Here are all the jobs available to Americans if you want to work in Antarctica for 4-12 months: https://www.usap.gov/jobsandopportunities/

So, the lifestyle looks something like this: work a contract/position in said location for 3-12 months, then have the option to pick up more or take time off. Living conditions, opportunities for socialization, and amenities will vary widely (think working at an embassy in a major city vs working at a mine in the remote countryside vs working on a military base in a warzone). I knew people in the Middle East who would chain together multiple contracts with maybe a few months in between of living a more conventional lifestyle in another country. You would think that everyone views these types of jobs as some sort of sacrifice, but really that’s not the case and many like the jobs due to the adventure, purpose, etc. There are people who do this kind of stuff for decades. Sometimes, the money isn’t even much of a factor because there is little opportunity to spend it. For obvious reasons these are not the types of jobs that pair well with children, but couples can make it work by picking up contracts in the same location.

* = Austere conditions are of course subjective, so one man's nightmarish lifestyle might be another man's active/outdoorsy/minimalist lifestyle

WFJ wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 16, 2023 9:15 am

A similar experience to above is what started my thoughts. I assumed there were maybe ten steps that would maybe take an hour a piece to obtain some kind of a long-term residence in a few countries, but learned quickly that there are closer to 20 steps and after an afternoon not completing even step one, switched plans.

Much easier if you get a lawyer or agent to handle it for you.

Travel first, see what you like and where you keep wanting to go back to. Then, settle there once you tire of travel. A year of planning is worth less than a month of living in a new country. An International Driver's Permit can be useful if you plan to drive, motorcycle and car licenses are both helpful to have for different situations.

Humanofearth wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:58 pm

Much easier if you get a lawyer or agent to handle it for you.

Yeah, I wonder whether there are any parallels to the insurance industry in that applications are automatically rejected the first time just to cut down the number of eventual approvals. Many of these oftentimes vague and sometimes contradicting rules and regulations seem to be written to serve as a gotcha in order to reject applications. For this reason I use a lawyer/agent for anything beyond a tourist visa. They also make sure that applications end up on the right desk while preventing them from getting stuck there.