A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Where are you and where are you going?
7Wannabe5
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Thus, if you think in terms of what you have in reserves (size of muscle), rate-of-use (size of muscle), and rate-of-supply (cardiovascular capacity) for the three systems, it should be easier to hit/max out any of the particular energy systems.
So, if you have small muscles and you are carrying significant non-muscular mass, either in the form of rucking plates or adipose tissue, you should reach maximum heart rate fairly readily under relatively moderate exertion in opposition to gravity, such as moving as rapidly as possible up a staircase, unless your heart capacity reserve is larger than expected and/or the simple mechanics of the activity chosen are inhibiting your effort. For example, if doing pull-ups defaults to just struggling while hanging from a bar while your arms pop out of their joints.
Stasher wrote: But as you mentioned above, I compare how I feel and then only against my past self.
There is too much mature Level Green/Yellow masculine humility on this forum. ;)

Scott 2
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by Scott 2 »

@Jacbo, we're in agreement on the energy systems consideration. I don't typically chase a high HR on the bike, but yesterday my intrusive thoughts won. Sometimes I see a number on a digital display, and all I want is a high score. The real plan is 30 minutes of zone 2 before I lift. It ensures my body is warm and accumulates my minimum of 2h per week, without eating into recovery. I think that maintains my v02 in the 45-50 range.

My v02 max adventures started with strength endurance interval circuits. Inspired by a combination of the RKC and crossfit social media I suppose. Not realizing they only post peak workouts. During COVID I even bought a $1000 torque sled, with turf wheels and magnetic resistance. Whisper quiet, so I could push it without disturbing my neighbors. I'd desperately fight to raise my heart rate, barely reaching the low 160's, for a minute or two at a time.

Then I realized dedicated cardio equipment could get me higher, with less strain, for longer. Turns out endurance athletes are good at building endurance. That was an inflection point. I sold the sled and stopped trying to make lifting cardio. And of course, I eventually learned that zone 2 is dramatically easier and gives me even higher scores.

Because HIIT is so systemically demanding, it's a tricky beast to serve.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:Thus, if you think in terms of what you have in reserves (size of muscle), rate-of-use (size of muscle), and rate-of-supply (cardiovascular capacity) for the three systems, it should be easier to hit/max out any of the particular energy systems.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun May 18, 2025 11:07 am
So, if you have small muscles and you are carrying significant non-muscular mass, either in the form of rucking plates or adipose tissue, you should reach maximum heart rate fairly readily under relatively moderate exertion in opposition to gravity, such as moving as rapidly as possible up a staircase, unless your heart capacity reserve is larger than expected and/or the simple mechanics of the activity chosen are inhibiting your effort. For example, if doing pull-ups defaults to just struggling while hanging from a bar while your arms pop out of their joints.
Yes!!

And so if the goal is to develop ALL of these energy systems in the pursuit of maximum lifespan or healthspan (under the presumption that you'll die if all three of them fails at a critical point, like having a heart attack), you can use this knowledge of how the systems work to train another mode once other modes fail.

For example, rather than stop and take a break when I can't do more of the requested side-to-side jumping pushups (more ATP than I have available), I'll switch to an easier form of push-up like no-jump or knees down and then keep going to focus on another energy system (oxygen) while allowing the others (lactate) to recuperate. Knowing how the body works and knowing how to change modality of a particular exercise makes it possible to better optimize the entire body-system as opposed to focusing on a single variable like VO2max.

(Fun fact: This is a lot harder to [think about] when physically exhausted. It takes a lot of experience to be able to think when the body would rather just sit down and take a break.)

This should also make it clear how "carrying a significant non-muscular mass, either in the form of rucking plates or adipose tissue" or "dealing with the additional cardiovascular load of a heatwave" reduces population longevity or health insofar thresholds are exceeded and can't be relieved.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:This should also make it clear how "carrying a significant non-muscular mass, either in the form of rucking plates or adipose tissue" or "dealing with the additional cardiovascular load of a heatwave" reduces population longevity or health insofar thresholds are exceeded and can't be relieved.
Gotcha. The extra adipose tissue only comes in handy if, for example, you are pregnant and on a starvation march through Siberian landscape, like maybe my Northern European ancestresses suffered. Also, I literally bounce every time I slip and fall, so likely worthwhile to maintain some of the adiposity in due ratio with muscle. I mean, I'm sure Serena Williams also bounces with much lower fat: muscle ratio than me, but not all of us are going to be Serena, so I think maintaining some fat along with some muscle is better than attempting to maximize VO2 max relative like the skinny shanks old guys I see out scowling while they run.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

I'm staring across the water at the BWCAW in the morning twilight. It's cloudy to the NW where I'm looking but there must be clear sky just out of sight to the NE because there a band of some shade between pink and orange just above the treetops. The last 2 hrs of the drive yesterday featured spitting snow--the latest in the spring I've ever seen snow though it's probably not a rarity at this latitude. Temps for the next few days are supposed to be in the 50s, and my understanding is the water temp is under 60 also, so 50s + 50s < 120 so no kayaking for a while.

I'll have to see when it get's a little warmer but the preliminary indication is that the combination of very dry air and occasional temps south of -20F, and a few months of sub-freezing average temps seems to have knocked out most of the odor in the desk I mentioned a good number of posts back. I couldn't smell anything when I checked it out yesterday. It's also not as beat up in appearance as I remember. I'll have to see what it looks like when all the drawers are back in, but it might have the right kind of rustic look to be fine here. I brought up a gallon of sporicidin so among my chores today I might start the process of giving all the insides and undersides a good soaking. Cooler temps will help keep it from drying too fast.If it's a bluebird sky day I might get it out and disinfect it with sunlight first. But I'm thinking I might not need to sand and refinish the whole thing. I still might do it for the sake of neuroplasticity and as a mindfulness exercise.

I slept unusually well last night, scored an 85 which in Ouraspeak is 'optimal'. By comparison my first night here last year was a 59 and I only reached 80 3 times in 4 months here, and all 3 included a boost from a afternoon nap and my top mark for the whole seasonbeing an 84. One day does not a trend make, though, and I'm still going to order a mattress topper in the next day or two. The mattress itself is not close to comfortable and that becomes more of an issue the older I get.

I also noticed while driving yesterday I had a very consistent energy level the whole way. Historically there were two points in the drive where I struggled. I'd get a big ebb in energy about 3 hours in, then at about the 5-6 hour mark I'd start getting extremely uncomfortable/antsy. It was somewhat less the case last season, and yesterday was pretty smooth sailing the whole way. The last three times I've made the drive in either direction I also didn't have to make any pit stops for bathroom-only breaks. I stop twice for gas and 2 bathroom breaks in 8 hours is pretty good for an old guy. I'm going to attribute that to all the attention I've been paying to metabolism and brain health. I sometimes put myself in a position of someone observing me, and from that perspective much of what I do seems a little silly. But in my N=1 life, if my N=1 experiments correlate with improvements (objective or subjective) there's no reason to abandon the quest.

I cued up 8 podcasts for the drive and listened to 7 before I got out of coverage in Superior national forest. Unfortunately, I didn't think to incluse any on fitness. I did listen to one about cortisol. Of course without out it we'd die in short order. But in excess it wreaks a lot of havoc. Given my metabolic history it provides a very valid consideration to stay away from endeavors like trying to bump up my VO2 max by grinding out several hours of zone 2 per week. Add to that the fact that my phenotype is one that never gets a runner's high or any sort of enjoyment whatsoever from running long distances, I'm built for HIIT, lol. The irony is that I was a track athlete in high school, but only had aptitude for sprints. I last tried sprints 13 years ago and lets just say that my conclusion was that for the sake of my body, true all-out sprints are risky business for me.

I did think about VO2 max while driving. The question I was pondering was whether it's relationship to all-cause mortality was causal or only correlational. That was an outgrowth of wondering whether the path one took to improve to VO2 max values mattered. In this thread there are a couple routes being discussed. Namely, the traditional slogging out long hours of traditional "cardio" and the newer paradigms surrounding HIIT, and in my case REHIIT, which I believe is the lowest-cortisol path to the goal. I'm letting some of that stew in my subconscious for a while. Next time I get a convergence of connectivity and time to sit down, I'll probably say more on that as well as take a look at what folks have added over the last two days. I read through everything briefly but haven't formed any thoughts.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

IlliniDave wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 5:53 am
I did think about VO2 max while driving. The question I was pondering was whether it's relationship to all-cause mortality was causal or only correlational. That was an outgrowth of wondering whether the path one took to improve to VO2 max values mattered.
Ha! I've written and quickly deleted several fairly judgemental rants of mine on this issue in these threads, because I didn't want to cast aspersions on what is clearly a subject with deeply stoked interest. However, I am "concerned" about the method which seems to go like

1) Show correlation between measurable variable (e.g. VO2max) and desirable outcome (e.g. life expectancy) in a statistical group.
2) Figure out how to "lifehack" the variable.
3) Collect the benefits of the studied group?!

For example,
1) Winning F-1 race cars show a correlation with the color red. (Or at least they used to.)
2) Paint your own car red or pay someone else to do it for you.
3) Enjoy your now faster car?!

So my concern is that unless a causal link has been established between the independent variable and the outcome complete with a known mechanism, it would be misguided to try to hack one's way to results. Painting your car red is not going to work because there's no mechanism that translates the color red into speed. This only showed up because Ferrari won a lot of races. If the mechanism isn't understood, the correct approach would be to emulate the total behavior of "the red cars". IOW, the focus should not be on the color red but on how Ferrari builds their race cars. Unfortuantely, the Ferrari process is not something that can be captured in one single variable to be subjected to p-tests, nor is it likely something that depends on a hackable single-variable.

I get triggered because I see the a lot of "lets try to massage the numbers to make them look better" all over these health threads in an attempt to get something for nothing. I am guilty of an attitude of "no guts, no glory" figuring that the good stuff should be hard to get (I'm anti lifehack that way) which is why I try to hold back. More objectively, though, I think the causal links are too complex to be reduced to a single variable and I think it would be a mistake to presume that this variable is more powerful than a set of likely latent variables just because the researchers can easily measure the former.

Did you read the article I linked about about the 80yo Norwegian?

Scott 2
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by Scott 2 »

Is this a good description of what you mean by REHIIT?

https://www.onepeloton.com/blog/rehit-training-protocol
Here’s how you might structure a REHIT workout on an air bike, for example:

3–5 minutes of low-intensity pedaling

20 seconds of all-out pedaling

2 to 3 minutes of slow pedaling or rest

20 seconds of all-out pedaling

3 minutes of a cooldown

As you can see, the total duration of this workout, including the warm-up and cooldown, is less than 12 minutes,

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

I think the following requirement makes the enterprise somewhat "impractical":
link wrote: How can you tell if you’re really giving it your all? Check in with your rate of perceived exertion (RPE). Estimate how hard you’re working on a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is lying down at rest and 10 is all-out intensity. You’re aiming for a 9 to a 10 on every work interval. You can also keep an eye on your heart rate, which should reach 90–100 percent of your maximum heart rate, according to ACE. “The key is to be able to reach and maintain a target heart rate without causing injury,” says James J. Murphy, MD, an orthopedic surgeon with OSF HealthCare.
Reaching 9+ on the Borg scale is by no means an easy thing. The biggest problem HIIT trainees have is in "perceiving their effort" as more effort than it actually is. In other words, they dial down and take a break too soon and too easily because they don't know how hard "hard" actually is. As such, this modality could in practice easily turn into 2-3 minutes at RPE=5 followed by 20 seconds at RPE=7-8 for two rounds, which albeit better than nothing remains close to nothing.

The problem with RPE=9+ is that the mind just doesn't want the body to go there unless it has no choice. 9+ is a "near death"-experience that leaves people in misery for hours after the fact. Insofar the person does not dread working out going into this and spends a few hours post-work regretting what they just did, it's most likely not happening at RPE=9+.

Therein lies the problem... or difference between gimmick/hack and effectiveness.

In any case ... it would be pretty easy to test before spending thousands of dollars on an app and some equipment. To translate it into running:
1) Jog in place for 3 minutes.
2) Sprint 200m as if your life depended on it (imagine being chased by a rottweiler)
Repeat twice.
Done.
Check if this $0-equivalent makes a difference first before pulling out the big wallet.

suomalainen
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by suomalainen »

I have this gravel powerline trail that I can ride on my mountain bike near my condo. It undulates, so you have a couple of bigger-ish climbs and a number of smaller-ish climbs. The second longest climbs turns up at the end to some brutal angle. I don't pay for anything that gives me specific data, but the whole segment on strava is a quarter mile and an average 8.9% grade. It takes me 3 - 4 minutes to climb. The first part is maybe like 5% and so the second part may be something like 15%. Anyway, I try to do that trail every so often, but it is of the type that I dread doing it and I can feel it for hours afterwards. It's so hard it makes me dry heave. Long way of saying that I agree with @Jacob. If you're not about to vomit, you're not going at a 9 or 10.

Edit: using gmap-pedometer.com and the usgs map setting, it appears to rise 50 feet over the last 300 feet for a ~16.5% grade. Add some gravel slipperiness so you can't stand and have to do it seated, it's a brutal 300 feet.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 8:25 am
Is this a good description of what you mean by REHIIT?

https://www.onepeloton.com/blog/rehit-training-protocol
I believe that is exactly the protocol that has been studied for efficacy. The only two activities I've seen associated with that are sprinting (a true all out sprint) and certain stationary bikes. I say "certain" because I've never owned a stationary bike and really don't know know much about them. The key is maximally taxing your body (not exhausting it) as rapidly as possible, then returning to baseline as rapidly as possible. I mentioned trying that with my rower, but it took 40-60 seconds to really start feeling taxed. That might be because after a stroke is completely extended you have a zero effort period contracting to prepare for the next. You don't get that while sprinting or pedaling. That still worked a little for me, but the longer it takes to ramp up, the less efficacy the protocol has, allegedly. I didn't have a way to test that myself.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 7:36 am
Ha! ...
Did you read the article I linked about about the 80yo Norwegian?
Yeah, there's always a tension between how-we've-always-done-it adherents and let's-find-a-better-way proponents. And between low tech and high tech fans.

It should be clear that VO2 max is only one of very many variables I'm tinkering with. In the end one could simply ask whether both being strong and capable of high energy expenditure if need be seem like something that would allow one to do a little more of the things they want to do and be happier. If the answer is no, then it's not worth fooling with. If the answer is yes, pursue them in whatever way makes you happy. There's no certainty when it comes to healthspan and longevity for an individual. Any sort of workout for the sake of fitness is biohacking. It's just a matter of how far you want to take it.

I don't recall seeing the article you are referring to, and so I'm pretty certain I haven't read it.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Thu May 15, 2025 6:27 am
You might enjoy this report: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4348610/

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 4:13 pm
I gave it a skim, it's interesting. Unfortunately I can't go back and replicate his lifestyle, and one of things I've been led to believe is that it's very difficult to get big gains in VO2 max once you hit the stage in life where it begins to fall off for most people. And I certainly don't want to have to get a pacemaker. I'll read it more carefully first thing in the morning when I'm not tired. He would be about 90 now. I wonder if he's still alive and how whatever years he had beyond the study went for him.

Scott 2
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by Scott 2 »

IlliniDave wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 3:49 pm
I mentioned trying that with my rower, but it took 40-60 seconds to really start feeling taxed.
I was thinking pretty much that. It takes me more than 20 seconds to reach 9-10 rpe. But I'm not a maximal effort type of guy. I don't have that animal in me.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon May 19, 2025 6:20 pm
I was thinking pretty much that. It takes me more than 20 seconds to reach 9-10 rpe. But I'm not a maximal effort type of guy. I don't have that animal in me.
I get it. When I was young I'd play sports full out and never think twice about it. I think Crossfit had a big influence on my drive to do what I can without beating my body to a pulp. But I figure I can go all out for 20 seconds twice 2-3x per week. The claim is the 20 seconds done twice is enough to tell your body to adapt, with only a fraction of the torture of even normal HIIT. But if Zone 2 works best for you, it's a well-established route that's known to improve VO2max. There's no one-size-fits-all, and any regimen a person can stick with is a good regiment for them. Or, 90% of the job is showing up, or however you want to say it. I've never really tried to gauge an RPE. On the rower in one sense it's a 10 when I did the adapted REHIIT because I literally could not move any faster, but 40 seconds probably put me at about a 7 on the IFTKMH (I'm-fixin'-to-kill-myself-here) scale.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I actually felt pretty good after maxxing myself out at 197 bpm with the stair run exercise, although I am also not eager to repeat it. I was more zonked the following day after accumulating 12,000 steps walking back and forth to school where I then interacted with pre-schoolers. Of course, not everybody has easy access to stairwells. I live in an early-mid 20th century high school with 4 floors (including the basement) and 12 ft. ceilings. and stairwells meant to accommodate hordes of high schoolers, in a building now occupied by seniors who always use the elevators. Apparently, surgeons used to use the ability to ascend 8 flights of stairs at any speed as a gauge for being fit enough to survive surgery. Also, Rocky seemed to favor this exercise.
jacob wrote: More objectively, though, I think the causal links are too complex to be reduced to a single variable and I think it would be a mistake to presume that this variable is more powerful than a set of likely latent variables just because the researchers can easily measure the former.
Yes, this is towards what I was attempting to communicate through my usage of italics in my latest post from "Biomarkers" thread below.
Since the standard estimate for maximum heart rate for females is 220 - (.67 X Age), it obviously follows that my biological age is only 34, so highly likely that I will live to be 110.
Heart health is not a perfect proxy for athletic fitness and athletic fitness is by no means a perfect proxy for biological age. For example, there was also a study done on females which thoroughly defeated hypothesis, because it indicated that females who are athletic see their VO2 numbers decline more rapidly with age than sedentary or moderately active females.

Also, any time you are resorting to general population statistics, you are in a sense stuck in the collapsing Modern. That's why I like to make whimsical use of them. One of the problems with Medicine 2.0 which I believe is also true of Medicine/Fitness 3.0 (to the extent I have explored it) is the lack of comprehension of the bias that may be baked in the cake beyond that which is captured by standard statistical analysis package. For example, the reason why Stephen J. Gould had to write an entire book, "The Mismeasure of Man" in refutation of Herrnstein and Murray's "The Bell Curve." I would suggest that it is entirely possible that statistics related to VO2 suffer from many of the same issues as statistics related to race and IQ, because those who engage in physical fitness or sports activities on a near daily basis (10% general population roughly) represent a sub-group of the population that may also significantly vary from the general population in other ways.

Another problem would be that longitudinal studies that have bearing on health outcomes may fail to reflect rapidly changing lifestyles. For example, smoking cigarettes is still the lifestyle practice contributing to the most deaths in the U.S., but this in some part due to the fact that those who are now old were more likely to be smokers.

A good example of the sort of health-related nonsense that is regularly promulgated by even reputable news outlets was a recent analysis of sexually transmitted diseases in senior citizens. The graph which was produced by a health management organization based on statistics generated from their group of practitioners, was topped by headline "Greatest Rise in STDs in Senior Population" and accompanied by a picture of gray-haired couple sitting on bench embracing. What the articles failed to mention was (1)that the statistic was based on requests for STD testing rather than results, and (2) the actual number of requests by seniors was so low it was near to rounding error of the number of requests by youngest group. And if simple stupidity of everybody engaged is put aside, the obvious "follow the money" motivation is that senior citizens have health insurance that will pay for STD testing if they request it at one of the for-profit organization's member clinics.

Anyways, beyond the increasingly weak, collapsing, biased, and money-seeking statistical analysis found at Modern and the not very useful for much but whimsy/critique Post-Modern (where I am often stuck) is Systems View Appropriate to Complexity at Level Yellow. The problem here is that Systems Science, Human Immunology, Neurobiology, Human Genetics, and Probability Theory in the form of all physical textbooks to be mastered would almost certainly exceed a mass equivalent to that of my ass if placed in a backpack while attempting staircase exercise.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

The original Borg (6--20) scale just measured heart rate. Simply divide heart rate by 10 and then rescale it to the modified Borg/RPE which goes from 0 to 10. So ... if I hand-waved the math right: RPE=10*(BPM-60)/140

RPE10 = 200bpm
RPE9 = 186bpm
RPE8 = 172bpm
RPE7 = 158bpm
...
RPE0 = 60bpm

... which also makes it clear why people often overestimate their RPE. (Just because it feels like the hardest ever doesn't mean that there's not something harder---the watch, to the extent it's accurate---a strap is better, will tell you objectively though.) This also means that zone2 training happens around RPE5 (brisk walk/slow jog). HIIT typically oscillates between RPE7 and RPE8.

From what I've read (spent 10 minutes googling :-P ), REHIT is a protocol that targets the phosphagen pathway by burning out its 10-15 second reserve capacity and then going slightly over to begin ramping up the glycolytic system (good for 3-4 minutes). Even if it goes mostly unused, this protocol still triggers it a little bit. It is the glycolytic pathways that have bearing on VO2max. As such REHIT is an improvement over e.g. zone2 training which otherwise never activate the the glycolytic system beyond its normal resting state (all three systems are always active but in different proportions).

A depleted phosphagen system takes about 2-3 minutes to recharge, so that explains why the REHIT break is just that long.

Conversely, HIIT basically lives in the glycolitic domain with 3 minutes on and half a minute off just to clear a bit of lactic acid and get some sugar back from the blood before hell restarts. This is why it's very effective in terms of increasing VO2 usage and improving the oxidative pathways --- because the body is desperate for more energy from the oxidative path (the phosphagenic one is long depleted.)

IOW, REHIT is an improvement for those who otherwise never touch a [heavy compound] barbell or engage in exercise over RPE5 and thus never go seriously into taxing their phosphagen and glycolytic systems. Buuuuut... it's not really worth a $10,000 bike or a subscription program unless you really want to. After all, motivation is priceless! There's no magic here though. You can achieve the same result by picking a KB weight that allows for 20 seconds of swings before you crap out (it slips out of your hands). Then jog in place for 2.5 minutes and repeat twice. You'll note how this very much resembles the intensity of the first 5 minutes of a typical gym session under a 3x10 protocol. I'm almost certain that REHIT only provides a gain for people who are otherwise allergic to weights or never work out above RPE=5 and thus never stress their energy systems.at.all.

Add: Note that the phosphagenic system does not use oxygen or even heart-rate. As such ramping up breathing and heartrate is a secondary effect to having the ATP-PC depleted. The body takes some seconds to realize that "hey-shit I better start breathing and beating here because something is going on". A case in point, consider how Olympic 50m swimmers (a 20 second effort) only come up for air 0-2 times. As such using heart rate is not a good way to estimate the effort associated with a short burst of energy because the heart is not really involved yet at this point. Going to muscluar failure is better/direct, because it indicates that ATP is gone.

Add2: If you're in decent shape, you might find yourself yawning uncontrollably during a relatively slow warm-up. This happens when the body starts depleting oxygen while not yet beyond convinced that any serious physical effort is happening and so hasn't started breathing and beating some oxygen back into the bloodstream. The slowly decreasing O2 in the blood then causes the yawning.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue May 20, 2025 7:14 am
...Heart health is not a perfect proxy for athletic fitness and athletic fitness is by no means a perfect proxy for biological age. ...
I think you could say that heart health is a pretty good proxy for biological age and skip the middle man. If nothing else CVD is the top cause of death here in the US.

But, the only means of swagging biological age I'm even marginally familiar with is cardio-agnostic. It does look at a couple of inflammation markers that are implicated in heart disease. Cortisol and c-reactive protein, IIRC.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob wrote:
Tue May 20, 2025 7:57 am

...
IOW, REHIT is an improvement for those who otherwise never touch a [heavy compound] barbell or engage in exercise over RPE5 and thus never go seriously into taxing their phosphagen and glycolytic systems. Buuuuut...
I don't believe this it true, and it's often presented as a compliment to strength training, as well as a way for competitive athletes in domains that aren't specifically cardio endurance specific to improve in that realm without accumulating stress on their bodies that detract from their competitive interests.

I think viewing it through an energy lens obscures the discovery. Not dissimilar to nutrition, physiological things happen through chemistry. When the body perceives a demand that threatens to exceed it's a capacity it essentially throws a switch to release a suite of molecules to trigger adaptation. Once the switch is thrown the biochemical system for metabolic adaptation is saturated (apparently the scientific examination of it has identified two instances of the "sprint" as the optimal throwing of the switch). Heaping additional stimulus doesn't raise the positive response to the stimulus, but it does cause increasing metabolic stress which begins to erode the positive adaptation mechanism by creating a high physiological stress environment the body has to divert resources to contend with. Some stress is good, too much stress is bad. And that leaves an athlete or fitness pursuer a low stress physiological state sans any muscular damage to pursue other activities with essentially full capacity. Reaching utter exhaustion is not the goal at all, the point is to avoid that. If that's what a person wants, the older HIIT paradigms are available.

Good point on a kettlebell being a contender for a REHIIT protocol. It hasn't been studied that I'm aware of. I had also considered thrusters (though I dont have a high enough ceiling in my house to raise a bar overhead). If a person is super interested in efficiency, fixed weights pose a problem. If you knew a weight that when swung or lifted would provide a maximum effort on a given day, on the next day you repeat it, it might be to heavy to avoid failure before the 20 second window completes, or it might be too light so max effort wouldn't be achieved. That's where computers with learning alsorithms come into play to allow every session to be optimized. The pro- argument is the marginal gains from optimization accumulate over time into something significant. The con- argument is who cares, 90% (or whatever) is good enough.

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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue May 20, 2025 9:15 am
Once the switch is thrown the biochemical system for metabolic adaptation is saturated (apparently the scientific examination of it has identified two instances of the "sprint" as the optimal throwing of the switch). Heaping additional stimulus doesn't raise the positive response to the stimulus, but it does cause increasing metabolic stress which begins to erode the positive adaptation mechanism by creating a high physiological stress environment the body has to divert resources to contend with. Some stress is good, too much stress is bad.
I don't think we disagree then. This, here, is the crux of the problem and I don't know the answer. Is it enough to "light the fuse" under the glycolytic system in order to trigger increased capability of the oxidative system (which would result in a higher VO2max)? This would be REHIT. Or do you need to burn down the glycolitic system to achieve the effect. This would be HIIT. And third question for extra credit? Is there a difference between the two triggers or methods?
IlliniDave wrote:
Tue May 20, 2025 9:15 am
Good point on a kettlebell being a contender for a REHIIT protocol. It hasn't been studied that I'm aware of. I had also considered thrusters (though I dont have a high enough ceiling in my house to raise a bar overhead). If a person is super interested in efficiency, fixed weights pose a problem. If you knew a weight that when swung or lifted would provide a maximum effort on a given day, on the next day you repeat it, it might be to heavy to avoid failure before the 20 second window completes, or it might be too light so max effort wouldn't be achieved. That's where computers with learning alsorithms come into play to allow every session to be optimized. The pro- argument is the marginal gains from optimization accumulate over time into something significant. The con- argument is who cares, 90% (or whatever) is good enough.
I have rubberized imprints from my dumbbells on our living room ceiling to show this. I have also accidentally punched the ceiling (%@#$@#$!) on more than one occasion. There are ways to avoid this though (DB cleans make a good substitute for thrusters). In terms of dialing in a weight that hits max effort for a given number of reps... well, one can never go wrong in underestimating the intellectual capability of the average person, but ... it involves taking some notes (or memorizing) and keeping track of one's reps for a given exercise. A little experience and anyone will be able to fairly accurately estimate whether they're capable of doing 18 or 21 pushups on a given day before maxing out. Yet, given how coaches repeatedly insist on the importance of doing this, it's also clearly that keeping track is not something many clients normally do. AI is not going to improve on [the ability to keep track] except for those who don't or can't count on their own. However, I can definitely see that a the computer telling you to "keep going, you can do it" to be more fun or motivating than trying to exceed the 17 military style pushups from last time's workout according to the notepad.

I do appreciate that some methods will be more motivating than others. I'm okay with spending money to gain motivation. If I was me, I would be more motivated by competing against other humans with something like Zwift (I think Concept rowers have something similar?) than I am about trying to do 3% better than my own numbers from last week or adhering to some algorithm multiplying 17 by 1.03 on the fly.

In summary, if fancy gadgets can cause exercise to happen when it otherwise wouldn't happen, I'm all for it. Preventative health is pretty good ROI compared to fixing even the smallest issues after things have gone bad.

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