Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Thanks for the vote, I think you're right. It's like with oreos. I don't need to hire a therapist to figure out wtf I can't leave a bag of oreos alone if they're in my pantry (what do the oreos imply about my relationship with my father??), it's enough to just not buy them at the store in the first place (which is easy for me to do).

The trick, as Slevin et al got into a bit in the recent phone thread, is that phones and computers and the internet are valuable tools in a way that oreos are not. The design effort is more complex. Don't cut off the nose just to spite the face and all that.

The upside is that since I hate the experience of distraction looping so much, my environment design might turn out to be really weird in proportion to my strong negative feelings about it. And being weird in ways that I have well thought out reasons for (e.g. not being weird purely for the freak factor) is a life goal of mine.

I suspect there is an argument that ERE is just permaculture principles applied to [x] and permaculture is just ERE principles applied to [y], but I don't understand both disciplines well enough yet to comment.

Finance/Economics and/or Agriculture/Ecology and/or Lifestyle Design/Sociology-Psychology etc. etc. Lately, I've been thinking about the flows and stocks of literacy. Thanks for the tip on Bella DePaulo and McGraw, of interest to me since I am currently living all by myself for the first time in my life, and I just friend-zoned the last of my poly-partners.

@7 I'm vibing with Bane's line that ~the aim of permaculture design is to fulfill needs from within the boundaries of the system as much as is possible/appropriate/etc. I also liked his chapter on help and how a permaculture project can (should?) serve as an attractor for social capital, community cultivation, relationship bonds, etc.

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A tweak to my 5050 routine:
.I realized I was trying to do all of the 'important stuff' before noon because mornings are when I'm at my best, but I see now that I was trying to stuff too much into those hours. Yoga and strength training in particular suffered, because I was too impatient to work on the Important and Important+Urgent projects. I found myself rushing through yoga and workouts or just skipping them entirely.
.Last night I began yoga on the rear deck of Serenity after sunset but before full dark. By the time I laid down to shivasana it was fully dark and the milky way was *crisp*.

.This was an aha moment: I never attempt to do Important or Important+Urgent projects in the evening because I know I'm useless cognitively then. By evening, I've let go of these projects for the day. Perfect time for yoga, strength training, etc.

.Also, outdoor Mojave-Sierra dusk yoga in summer is SUBLIME, the night sky, the soft still warm air, the birds... (Also opportunities for experiencing the technological sublime: two evenings in the past three I've watched a 50-unit satellite train traverse the sky into the earth-shadow. pfff. Say what you will about the consequences, humans are neat.)

July Update
Economic
I'm spending more on building materials - in particular custom sized dual-pane glazing units for my south windows - and my ttmCoL has bumped up to $8,300. This is a case of being too impatient to wait for my nascent salvaging skills to net me materials that will suit. I made the decision while biking to spend the money to get these batch of projects moved along. The impatience has to do with weather (keeping cooler in summer, being ready for winter, having better systems to keep driving 50mph rain and snow out of my situation) and wanting to move on to other projects that require my living quarters to be properly set up. The next thing I might spend money on is material for the outdoor shower space, as I want to use it as a ferrocement low-consequence learner project, but the design for that is in flux.


After this burp of spending and completing projects that I feel a sense of urgency on I'm looking forward to doing some crowbar experiments with spending.

Technical
I built a window louver, built out my south windows, built a storm door, a prototype sun shade sail thing, installed seismic bracing under the studio, designed an outdoor bathroom ferrocement enclosure, improved my skill with the track saw, have pretty much nailed pancakes, salvaged a neighbor's 36 year old solar panels, fixed my headphones, and learned how to read the blink pattern error codes on my motorcycle and reset the DTC codes. Still doesn't run though.

Also I've started scoping fb marketplace regularly, which is the main way locals sell stuff around here, as part of my effort to tap into salvage flows. So far I got two old single pane windows (for use in solar oven and solar hot water heater) and two carboys for next year when I'll learn to homebrew. I'd really like to find a big load of urbanite... socal to central cal folks, if you know of a big pile of broken up sidewalk somewhere with no one's name on it, hit me up.


I really like the dark stain effect. Still have a ways to go to make this place insta-worthy...


The storm door is to keep driving precipitation off my door and also evening sun relief.




The louver was a fun build.

Emotional
I am quietly happy, enjoying my solitude with spikes of social contact. The only real source of stress is EREfest (omg what if it sucks???), but that's a natural/good stress that I signed up for and fully accept.

Social
My relationship with my parents is good and lovely moments happen randomly every once in a while. Every interaction is an opportunity for equanimity practice, learning about them as fuller richer humans that I gave them credit for, and learning more about myself. A 65yo neighbor fell of his roof a couple weeks ago and died, underscoring for me how irresponsible it is to take time with people for granted.

Intellectual
Weinberg's systems thinking book was interesting. I couldn't explain how reading it was practically useful even though I enjoyed it and felt that it was useful. And since then I feel like I've been seeing systems thinking everywhere but in a way I can't articulate. Might need to read it again.

The book project is finally starting to cohere. 'You never finish a book, you just finally abandon it.' I'm getting close to that point. Publishing it in the Fall seems likely.

I'm 90% certain of what I want my next writing project to be... the discussion in 'distilling the forum' thread was the seed for it. Sort of like Radical Homemakers but for ERE. The book I'm writing now is about my relationship with ERE, this new project would be about a dozen other people's journeys. Pure nonfiction, not weird semi-fiction like my current project.

Not using my phone is going well. Not owning a phone doesn't make much sense, but having one that costs $0/month and that I keep in a box except for vary rare instances of needing it suits me well.

Physiological
I think I don't like bodyweight routines. I was discouraged at the beginning of the month how I have never stuck with any of the bwf routines I've tried - after a few weeks I start actually *resisting* it. It feels like something in my subconscious is going 'Don't do this. It's a waste of time.' I'm pretty sure it's NOT a waste of time, but my subconscious doesn't like it and so I decided to renew the search for something else.

I found and began Tsatsouline's The Quick and The Dead program, or rather what I think it is pieced together from reading reviews of the book. 10 speed pushups, 90 seconds,10 KB swings, 90 seconds, repeat for 12 or 18 or 24 minutes. I'm doing 12min. I need a heavier kb. The QatD program is purely about what is the bareass minimum to maintain physical conditioning, so I'm doing this as better than nothing, buying myself time to think further about what I want to do. More kb's? Build some strongman stuff? Get some Olympic equipment again?

Still doing nighttime yoga 4-5x week.

Being heat adapted to high 90's feels like a superpower. Bodies are neat.

Great update and really looking forward to reading the book when it comes out.

I enjoy Pavel's stuff but I almost feel like the books complicate the routines a bit too much. I had a lot more success following the posts on the strong first forums. As far as programs go, I really enjoyed the A+A workouts, roughly 10 kettlebell swings, and then waiting until the minute ends and doing ten reps after that until you get to your set time. Rinse, wash, and repeat and wave the times over the week or just slowly increase the times.

What are the yoga routines you are following? I should probably do that now that I've been playing tennis regularly.

When I was living in the Bay I injured my finger bouldering and couldn't climb for nine months, this was 2013 or 2014 maybe. I got into yoga, mostly going to classes with this one instructor I really liked who did hatha yoga... I forget what more specifically her shtick was. Really alignment based and focused on form and breathwork. Now I do sequences in a flow roughly what I remember doing with her, and going with what I feel I want that day. Sun salutations, standing poses, balance poses, inversions, seated poses, shivasana. I've skimmed a few books on sequence construction to confirm I'm not messing up somehow but otherwise I just go with what feels good.

Thanks for the tip on the strongfirst forum!

concerning youtube shorts, every time they show up, you can ask youtube to.not show them to you by clicking on the cross, then you're good for a month.
somehow, everytime they show up, i get some dopamine from denying them.
You could probably train your own brain to do the same.

I have not trained strongman seriously, but have been in a handful of gyms where they do. I've lifted a small atlas stone, put a log overhead, deadlifted an axle, that sort of thing. And I hired a pro strongman as a trainer for about a year.

It is very hard on the body. Injuries are common, as the movements are intentionally awkward. Easy to say tear a bicep, trying to flip a tire with bent arms.

Unless you are looking to compete as a hobby, I would encourage keeping it to the conditioning level. More like a metcon with odd objects.


It's interesting with so little indoor space, you have so many books!

@jean hah! Dopamine hit from swatting the shorts. I love that inversion. Thanks.

@scott2 - ah, thanks for the insight wrt strongman stuff. Yes I'm not interested in competitive training - my unordered priorities are look good, feel good, prevent injury, be strong for as along as possible, and have a high baseline fitness for application to my activities (ranging here from construction to climbing to bikepacking to dancing).

There another couple boxes worth of books and journals under my bed platform. I'm a bad minimalist.

I found 2lbs of organic fair trade french roast coffee beans at grossout for $2 last week, days away from sell by date. Couldn't help myself. Cold brew mellows it out enough it's not actually bad black and a tiny pinch of salt helps too. $.05/cup.

We're getting close to EREfest! We need an updated headcount so as to plan food, parking, tent spaces, and toilet and shower construction.

Please click this link: no sign in required, it doesn't collect email address, the two fields are Name and Count, and will take you five seconds.

If you aren't sure if you're going to make it, but would like to if logistics work out, please fill this out. I want a roughly accurate upper bound for attendance.

AxelHeyst wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 31, 2023 2:52 pm

I found 2lbs of organic fair trade french roast coffee beans at grossout for $2 last week, days away from sell by date. Couldn't help myself. Cold brew mellows it out enough it's not actually bad black and a tiny pinch of salt helps too. $.05/cup.

You might already know this but a generous pinch of cinnamon and / or cocoa powder / or cardamom (and I'm sure there are other spices I'm missing here) can also mellow it out / improve the flavor.

I haven't experimented with spices yet, thanks for the tip.

I'm also intrigued by the swedish egg coffee method, but that 'wastes' an egg as I assume the calories, protein, and fat don't get into your body. https://www.thespruceeats.com/egg-coffee-2952648

AxelHeyst wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:04 pm

The louver was a fun build.

That looks straight out of a John Ford movie.

AxelHeyst wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:04 pm

Physiological
I think I don't like bodyweight routines. I was discouraged at the beginning of the month how I have never stuck with any of the bwf routines I've tried - after a few weeks I start actually *resisting* it. It feels like something in my subconscious is going 'Don't do this. It's a waste of time.' I'm pretty sure it's NOT a waste of time, but my subconscious doesn't like it and so I decided to renew the search for something else.

I found and began Tsatsouline's The Quick and The Dead program, or rather what I think it is pieced together from reading reviews of the book. 10 speed pushups, 90 seconds,10 KB swings, 90 seconds, repeat for 12 or 18 or 24 minutes. I'm doing 12min. I need a heavier kb. The QatD program is purely about what is the bareass minimum to maintain physical conditioning, so I'm doing this as better than nothing, buying myself time to think further about what I want to do. More kb's? Build some strongman stuff? Get some Olympic equipment again?

Still doing nighttime yoga 4-5x week.

Hey AH, would you mind expanding on this (not liking bodyweight routines) a bit?

You touched on your subconscious not liking it and having thoughts of it being a waste of time. Is this the crux of it? Or is it boredom of the movements? A struggle knowing how to progress? Not feeling able to dial up or down the intensity (% of 1 rep max) to match current desire? Or feeling like it it's not functional or transferable to other activities? Inability to target/isolation specific muscles or movement patterns? Struggles with making muscle or strength gains? Something else?

I've spent most of the last 5 years doing bodyweight training and have messed around with it a fair bit, just curious of your challenge here and if there is anything I can add to help.

At times I've had feelings of resistance too, and wanted to cycle to other training modalities. I think this is common. In my case, I've found it can apply to any modality - they all have various tradeoffs. I'm not saying this is you, but sometimes you just get bored, and have to either push through or mix things up with other types of training. I have found it helpful to list (either literally or in your head) a variety of types of training as a sort of buffet that you can pick and choose from based on current desire and focus. Think things like a list of exercises spanning from low rep high intensity to high rep low intensity variations, altering training frequency (I'm currently doing high frequency low intensity with short daily workouts, whereas historically I did more high intensity low frequency) calisthenics "skills" development, flexibility and/or stability (e.g. bridge or handstand work), endurance (biking/walking/running), power (burpees, hill sprints, etc.), balance (walking along beams or downed trees), carrying things (farmers carry but ofc doesn't need to be dumbbells, can be anything, I've carried a sledge hammer on long walks), climbing trees/ropes/vines, etc.

Might be that none of this applies and calisthenics just isn't for you, but wanted to inquire a bit to see what's going on with you. Having meandered a bit myself and always come back to calisthenics, just want to make sure there isn't a solution that could apply and help you!

Also just wanted to comment that I wish I could attend the ERE fest, but the timing doesn't really work this year with our little one. Still, it sounds like it's going to be a great time and I wanted to applaud you for putting it together. Hope you guys have a blast!

@Axel Heyst, kind of a tough question for you, but what are the five most important books that you have read? Apologies if this was covered elsewhere.

Dave wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 03, 2023 4:55 am

Hey Dave, I've been mulling this one. I *think* the answer lies within the DVP>C model (Dissatisfaction times Vision times Plan must be equal to or greater than the activation energy for Change... it's crazy how widely useful that model is).

Most of the ideas you floated I think belong in the Plan category - is the specific routine or routines I've tried a good plan to meet Vision and deal with my Dissatisfaction?

I think my problem actually lies in the D and the V (heh), or the lack thereof ( ).

I'm not terribly dissatisfied with my physique and capabilities. I'm not about to win any fitness model comps, and yeah sure it sounds nice to be stronger, leaner, and more mobile... but also I'm actually pretty okay the way I am. I don't have some highly compelling Vision of being stronger, faster, better, etc. Due to my body type/genetics and fairly active lifestyle I don't have to do much formal training at all to stay in this "yeah this is fine" zone. Every once in a while I'll notice some extra fat (e.g. near the end of my europe trip last year) or feel weaker than I'd like, and I'll be dissatisfied with that, and then I'll train for 4-6 weeks, and then I'm back where I want to be.

Contrast this with my lifting career, which began at 14yo. I was extremely dissatisfied with my size and strength and I had a super compelling vision of what I wanted. I cultivated that dissatisfaction and vision for six or seven years and there was never a question of discipline or missing workouts. Eventually that ingrained dissatisfaction waned and also my vision adjusted as I began to care more about things like climbing, and thus intentionally pumped the breaks on the weight training and the 'tine.

I'm actually not 100% sure if I have a real problem, or if I just have this idea that I should be training 3x/week but my body knows better.

Some unsorted thoughts:
When I used to train, the whole point was to get jacked. I no longer care about being jacked. I *do* want to maintain/increase bone density, prevent injuries, be healthy, etc etc. But I don't have much dissatisfaction around that because I'm pretty healthy for now, and it's difficult to internalize future dissatisfaction that will be the result of inaction.

Maybe the reason my body somatically rejects these calisthenic workouts is because I trained for getting jacked for so long, that my body only accepts heavy lifting? And anything else my body sort of goes 'wtf is this, this isn't going to get us jacked, this is a waste of time.'

Maybe I'd actually do well with a 1x/wk strength program. (IIRC Dorian Yates did 1x/wk HIT routine at some point...) And yoga 3x/wk minimum.

Any ideas for increasing Dissatisfaction and/or increasing Vision in absence of wanting to become a beefcake again? Beyond just watching 'people are awesome calisthenics edition volume 56' on youtube?

AxelHeyst wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:55 pm

Maybe the reason my body somatically rejects these calisthenic workouts is because I trained for getting jacked for so long, that my body only accepts heavy lifting? And anything else my body sort of goes 'wtf is this, this isn't going to get us jacked, this is a waste of time.'

But have you ever met anyone who could do 20+ pullups / chinups in a row who wasn't jacked? Or do you mean jacked in terms of extreme size? Calisthenics (like gymnastics) chases peak strength to weight ratio. Having more mass than needed is an extreme negative in bodyweight training, because it introduces inefficiency in the movement (moving more than you need to). Waste not. This is also why calisthenics is more "exercise complete" than just lifting, as it usually involves complex movement, and body awareness that you don't get during weight lifting.

I'm also just gonna add in down here that I also don't see a problem with you practicing yoga a bunch though as a form of exercise. You can get extremely fit and mobile and get good breathwork / etc with yoga alone (as it is an incredibly deep practice). The only basic thing it is missing is pulling. So just like add in pullups and pulling variations on top of it a few times a week. Voila. A nice great thing you can keep up with because you enjoy it.

Also, working out is like eating your vegtables. You can make vegetables delicious, but eventually some days you are just eating em to get them down. Same with workouts. Whenever I'm really not feeling it (and not because I'm just too sore to actually do anything) I just accept it and then start the first couple reps anyways and see how it goes. I usually end up finishing the whole workout.

Divandan wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:10 am

@Axel Heyst, kind of a tough question for you, but what are the five most important books that you have read? Apologies if this was covered elsewhere.

Oooo that is a hard question. I'm going to have to cheat a little.

1. ERE [important because only thing I've ever read that addresses lifestyle design for people who've read the following books]

2. Science, Strategy, and War: The Strategic Theory of John Boyd, by Frans Osinga [important because how to think, and an example of intellectual polymathy] [If you dig that, you then might like Certain to Win by Chet Richards, The Book of Five Rings by Musashi Miyamoto, The Japanese Art of War by Thomas Cleary, ...]

3. Choose one and then read the others: Tainter's Collapse of Complex Societies, Limits to Growth by Meadows et al, The Long Descent by John Michael Greer, Overshoot by William Catton, The Five Stages of Collpase by Orlov [important because you'll understand the ecological thermodynamics of collapse and by extension why zombies/fast collapse is a fantasy, and also why techno-utopianism is so unlikely]

4. Choose one and then read the others: Retrotopia by JMG, Entropia by Samuel Alexander, Future Scenarios by Holmgren, The Ecotechnic Society by JMG, Collapse Now and Avoid the Rush by JMG, Tending the Wild by Kat Anderson [Important because it's a range of future ideation that falls in between zombies/fast collapse and techno-utopianism. Tending the Wild is important because it dispels the Man vs. Wilderness story, which is related imo]

5. Tao te Ching by Lao Tzu. I <3 the Mitchel translation.


I suspect that I'm going to have a permaculture book to add to the list in the near future. Peter Bane 2012 is pretty killer.

There's also a whole category I left out in the realm of Plotkin, Rod Stryker, and the like.... I think those are going to be much more hit or miss based on personality.

Also I have a (very) incomplete list of books at the bottom of my unlisted manifesto page.

Slevin wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:22 pm

But have you ever met anyone who could do 20+ pullups / chinups in a row who wasn't jacked? Or do you mean jacked in terms of extreme size?

Yeah I meant jacked=beefcake. I'm 5'10" and for years my goal was 220lbs in lean bodybuilder shape and who cares how strong I am, for reference. I got to 205lbs natural before losing interest. I'm 165 now. My bf% has only varied a few percent up and down since high school (highest was during my brief relationship with powerlifting).

So for years my motivation with lifting was entirely visual/aesthetic. Strength, injury prevention, bone density, etc was an incidental yield. Even when I trained powerlifting style, it was more serendipity having to do with my training partner being into it. I was still mostly stoked on getting big. Powerlifting + a cut = dope bodybuilding physique.

So I completely buy the strength/weight, complete physicality, etc etc of bodyweight training that you wrote about. Nevertheless, I struggle with consistency. I have some bug in my software, it seems.

It does occur to me that there was something special about *going to the gym* vs working out at home. It was always easy to get in the car or hop on my bike to go to the gym because it's Tuesday and I go to the gym on Tuesdays. And then by the time I get there well, hell, I'm not going to NOT work out I'm already here. The only real decision I made was to get in the car / on the bike and point myself at the gym. This is very James Clear of course.

Whereas here at home, the first action is pick up the kb or start warmup routine or whatever the first exercise is. I wonder if it would paradoxically help if I established a designated space for my workouts that wasn't right here in my compound. Then the first action would be 'put on shoes and shirturban and go to the workout place'. I'll give that a shot.


ETA also I'm wondering if signing up for some sort of structured competition thing would help with a Why/Vision. OCR or something like that...