Rob is growing and foraging 100% of his food for a year

[7Wannabe5]

That’s a nice way to put it. From my perspective primary Te is like a bulldozer that destroys alternative universes that very well may have preserved greater complexity.

[daylen]

Similarly, too much Fe homogenizies crowds and promotes group-think.

[7Wannabe5]

Interesting. My tertiary Fe seems to be only capable of group harmonization at the level of “Hey everyone, I baked cookies!”

[daylen]

Generally, Te cultures like America tend to be more capitalistic (i.e. bulldozer, constrict bell-curve) and Fe cultures like China are more socialistic (albeit it is obviously more nuanced than this). Both lead to highly stratified monetary/social structures, whereas Ti/Fi cultures tend to be less stable (i.e. simpler, anarchical) because judgments/relationships/contracts tend not to be externalized. Also relates back to what @Alphaville was saying about scaling.

[classical_Liberal]

i don’t think it’s actively disliked and i’m not criticizing personal initiative. i am disputing what i understood as the assumption that @c_l made about his entrepreneur acquaintance not offering “health care” to employees. there is a lot to dispute in that assumption before it should get accepted as fact. so i asked questions and offered other possible explanations.

Yeah there is a lot to dispute because I didn't offer the whole story. Rather was using a combination of what this person stated and my own internal thought processes to retell it. Other than assuming someone who believed healthcare to be a basic human right would do what could be done in his own sphere of influence, I mostly kept my mouth shut. Because I didn't want to be a dick to a guy I barely know.

So, there could very well be motivations other than money underlying this person's decision to not offer health care. I don't know, I didn't dig deeper, and he didn't proffer additional information about why. He just seemed shocked that I would assume he offered it. I do think my mere assumption got the wheels turning in this person's head though. He's a smart guy and can figure out how to run his business in a a personally acceptable ethical manner.

Really my story was to highlight this feeling of lack of agency, that even those materially successful in today's world seem to feel. Not attack this person. (Sidenote: why is that always assumed the reason to talk about anything anymore is personal attacks vs talking about issues?, I mean f**k you cant even retell Goldilocks anymore without being accused of hating bears!) This guy was smart and freethinking enough to drop out of a college education he felt was wasteful and take advantage of a niche constructruction business. He has done very well at a very young age. There's a lot to like there. Yet he still seemed to look to government first, at least in some realms, to solve problems.

Again,a generalization here, this time without a story to clutter the issue. People work very hard to try and get other people to change things for them, rather than just trying to change things themselves. I think this is a problem and it's accelerating.

It's interesting to me that some people here have answered this question with personality traits (ie immutable) and others with socialization/culture as a primary driver for this phenomenon. Thanks for the responses.

[jennypenny]

lol ... I came back to finish a reply I started this morning about trading aptitude for agency but the thread has moved way past the agency discussion. That's what I get for pondering too long.

[daylen]

There is always room for more agency discussion.

[classical_Liberal]

Ahh shoot! @JP, I'd love to read it!

[Alphaville]

ah! sure. but there are also problems that can only be solved at a societal level, and individual initiative may be futile or even counterproductive. e.g., the provision of “justice”: do i take it into my own hands?

[classical_Liberal]

ah! sure. but there are also problems that can only be solved at a societal level, and individual initiative may be futile or even counterproductive. e.g., the provision of justice: do i take it into my own hands?

The parts the you can, yes! You can start by not acting unjust. ie If you act unjustly, then complain that justice isn't served and that someone should fix that.

[Alphaville]

The parts the you can, yes! You can start by not acting unjust.

i was trying to point at the problem of vigilantism.

nevertheless, i’ll play:

“not unjust”—according to whose standards?

and robin hood: thief or hero?

[Alphaville]

ie If you act unjustly, then complain that justice isn't served and that someone should fix that.

that was added after i started replying.

different game!

—

ok then, let’s reboot.

person 1 acts, another person deems it unjust and conplains. then person 1 complains that we lack a standard of justice, and we should all agree on what that is before deciding.

[7Wannabe5]

Some people don’t make use of their agency, not because they are wanting/waiting for somebody else to take action, but rather because they are still trying to come up with best possible solution themselves. IOW, they want to examine more possible options and consequences before making decision. The negative descriptor is “indecisive.” The positive descriptor is something like “heedful.”

[daylen]

It's interesting to me that some people here have answered this question with personality traits (ie immutable) and others with socialization/culture as a primary driver for this phenomenon.

In my head, they are very intertwined and only separable on a superficial level. Basically just another version of nature vs. nurture which is almost never simple.

Also, the typical interpretation of "culture" being a set of values/beliefs/memes/traditions can be expanded upon a bit. These qualitative aspects are important but so are more quantitative measures such as demographics and technological access. The sheer amount of information being exchanged by learning algorithms is probably tied more to stunting [Te/Fe flavored] agency than lack of quality. Highly stratified systems can easily distort the distribution of information an individual ends up consuming (i.e. bell curves, power laws, Overton window).

In turn, this disallows an agent to form a coherent model of their options (i.e. immutable positions) so their subject can never become their object of choice.

[classical_Liberal]

I know where you were going, and you still went. You question is whether robinhood is just or unjust and based on who's view.

My point is more stoic in understanding sphere of control. IOW, not taking ethical sides, rather why people don't act on their own ethics. Of course there are circumstances where governments are so broken they need to be changed or torn down. This still requires people to act using agency. Not asking someone else to do it for them. I also think people seem to want to destroy the existing framework as a solution, but are not willing to put in the effort to build a new one. "They" can take care of that.

What if Robinhood and his merry men foraged and hunted in Sherwood forest and gave the harvest to the poor. Wouldn't be much of a fairytale, but it is a possible solution within an existing framework that could be done. In any event, even stealing from the rich to give to the poor represents agency. IOW, robinhood didn't watch all the poor people starve and think, someone should do something about this. Maybe the king or nobles? Wait I am a noble, well the king then. Then proceed to b**ch about the king for the rest of his life.

[classical_Liberal]

@7WB5
Good point. Even someone with a plan could be waiting to use the little agency they have at the best lever point.

[Alphaville]

IOf course there are circumstances where governments are so broken they need to be changed or torn down. This still requires people to act using agency. Not asking someone else to do it for them.

i don’t know if it’s for ideological reasons but you’re missing the option of petitioning the government and participating in civic life as a form of agency. it’s not “them,” it’s “us,” but as a collective entity.

if i may bring it back from the purely abstract you seem to be saying that if lack of health care is an injustice it’s the just role of the employer to provide said health care to the employee.

but if it were all about personal agency, then it’s not up to the employee, but up to each individual to provide their own health care.

the problem here is that individuals and businesses and other groups operate within legal and frameworks that constrain their agency. i offered a scenario in which, in a competitive market, a business person would go bankruot by offering healthcare to employees. so, while recognizing the lack of health care as a social problem, they may be unable to fix the problems themselves, or make things even worse for the employees by failing to provide a job in addition to health care.

there are situations in which it’s not just how we play the game, but what game we’re playing.

it’s fair to ask for a change of rules when the rules aren’t up to us. ETA: TO US ALONE. so “hey group, this game sucks, let’s change the rules”is still agency.

[Frita]

A bit off topic, but one thing I don’t think many people recognize is that many teenage girls are knocked up by much older men.

Nothing new there though it’s easier to ignore, for sure. It actually shows some savvy to be able to get into a relationship that may be more beneficial than sleeping with someone of the same age. Two to three generations ago in the US it was a way to get out out of one’s house and away from parent(s). There’s probably a cultural component as well in that age difference in couples, with the man being old enough to be the female’s father, is desirable.

[classical_Liberal]

i don’t know if it’s for ideological reasons but you’re missing the option of petitioning the government and participating in civic life as a form of agency. it’s not “them,” it’s “us,” but as a collective entity.

It is. Because this

the problem here is that individuals and businesses and other groups operate within legal and frameworks that constrain their agency.

That's a different discussion though .

My point is there there are almost always places in which we have agency within any framework we are placed. Some are obviously more constrictive than others. Why do people fail to see the agency they do have? and resolve to the constant struggle of trying to make others bend to their view, rather than using the energy to act on the agency they do have.

You make it seem like there are a lot of no win scenarios in life. I disagree.

"I don't believe in the no win scenerio" -James T Kirk Wrath of Khan

[Alphaville]

"I don't believe in the no win scenerio" -James T Kirk Wrath of Khan

therefore, kobayashi maru

*change the rules of the unwinnable game*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru