A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

[IlliniDave]

How do you time intense workouts, do you work out before or after the noon meal

The higher intensity workouts are almost always before I eat. Often it will be the first thing I do after my morning coffee, so between 0600-0800. When I walk a longer distance (~3mi or more) or hike, that will be before my main meal as well. Now that the weather is getting nice I sometimes take a short stroll after I eat, 2.5 mi or less. I don't consider them intense, but I often do my therapeutic band exercises (part of the program I'm working with a chiropractor for my shoulder) between 1400-1600. Usually I don't have any meaningful exercise for at least 4 hours prior to getting into bed.

[jacob]

Probing below the surface, there are three criteria consistently listed as requirements for good sleep:

1. 7-9 hours total sleep per 24 hours
2. Minimum of 15%-25% (depending on the source) deep sleep
3. Minimum of 20%-25% (depending on the source) REM sleep.

I don't achieve any of those on a regular basis, although usually I am pretty close to the 15%-20% deep sleep range, which per some sources is adequate. Since deep and REM sleep happen while I'm asleep I don't know how I could game them. There may be some way to game the total sleep estimation. Occasionally when I'm deeply relaxed Oura will ask me to confirm I've had a nap when I hadn't, but I've not noticed anything that will reliably "trick" the ring (haven't really looked).

Assuming I can find the right combination of behavior/lifestyle modifications to come closer to or even achieve those criteria, especially the REM/deep sleep thresholds, would it be fools gold? Would it do nothing meaningful for my well being, mentally of physically? I don't know.

I've find that when I do a caffeine detox and avoid the stuff for a few months, I dream a lot more and I also spend more time in bed because I'm not eager to get out of bed in the morning. (I'm normally a fast riser---I never even understood the snooze button.) I don't know about "deep sleep" and the anecdotal experiences are perceptions only. I don't know if I actually dream more. It just seems that way. I figure I'm sensitive to caffeine and that my body doesn't purge it fast. I stay away from coffee (and chocolate) after 11am for that reason. It generally takes about 1 week of abstinence to produce these results.

Insofar you do drink coffee, it's possible that giving it up will reveal the droids you're looking for.

[7Wannabe5]

it's all in line with the thrust of the information I've been consuming for the last two years.

I put a couple of her books on my list. Unfortunately, some aspects of my current health situation are simply too unique and severe to respond to lifestyle measures and/or supplementation, so I am somewhat envious of you. I am currently becoming once again symptomatic with Crohn's Disease due to being two weeks late receiving my infusion of advanced biologic immunosuppressant. I am two weeks late, because I had a severe respiratory infection and asthma. The only happy note is that even though I am 60 and approaching my chubbiest self ever, my comprehensive metabolic panel results are excellent. I am apparently just one of those humans who can endlessly effectively/efficiently process bags full of jelly beans into butt fat, and this is also true of my 85 year old mother. Since auto-immune diseases are 4X more prevalent in females, I feel like I am generally falling off the opposite side of the cliff than many of my male peers. My baseline hormonal profile in my late 30s was that I had very high normal levels of both estrogen and testosterone. I completed menopause during the Covid lockdown, within months of my first acute Crohn's incident, so I still haven't got around to figuring out what sort of hormonal replacement I might need or prefer. Some of the side-effects of the immunosuppressant drug I am on, such as dry skin and weight gain, are also conditions correlated with being post-menopausal, so I am rather daunted at the prospect of even beginning to untangle the overall cluster-fuck. My vague first thoughts are high calcium/vitamin D estrogen promoting diet and strength training.

However, I am charging up my Fitbit Charge 5, and I reloaded the app on my crappy little tutoring tablet (because my phone is too old to run more than a few apps), so forward ho, here I go! I think the first metric I will start tracking will be related to Lower Body Strength, because I feel like that will be an easy win for me towards overall motivation. So, I will see you down at the Over 60 ERE Biomarker and Related Metrics 5 Year Competition thread.

[ertyu]

My vague first thoughts are high calcium/vitamin D estrogen promoting diet and strength training.

There is a 20% to these things that gets people 80% of the way. Can't go wrong with the above

[IlliniDave]

Insofar you do drink coffee, it's possible that giving it up will reveal the droids you're looking for.

I think that's something I need to consider. Once I got got out of the corporate grind my coffee consumption has declined to one 12 oz cup roughly first thing in the morning and that's it, so essentially no coffee after 630am. Besides that I drink only water, or water mixed with a protein supplement, or a polyphenol supplement, or instant kava. I do occasionally eat small amounts of ~80% cacao chocolate, more for the polyphenol nutrients than as a treat. So on balance I'm not setting myself up for trying sleep while caffeinated. But my body being habituated to a jolt of caffeine between 430-530 AM could very well contribute to why, when I wake up within a stones throw of that window, my body seems to resist going back to sleep. It might be worth either just forgoing coffee, or maybe even just forcing myself to wait until 630 or 700am before having my daily cup that might allow me to gain some sleep back in the 400-530am window.

I don't think I've mentioned this, but I typically have a little over 80% sleep efficiency (time asleep/time in bed). So I've targeted 830pm-530am as my desired window, which at 80% efficiency would get me a little above 7 hrs total. That doesn't speak directly to REM or REM cycle characteristics, but it stands to reason that increased sleep will tend to result in increased REM, especially since REM cycles seem to lengthen the further into sleep they occur.

[7Wannabe5]

Hmmm...obviously not enough data yet, but my first night's sleep log indicates that I did have a fairly long REM cycle within an hour of falling asleep and another somewhat shorter cycle around an hour later, but at no point during the night did I actually achieve deep sleep. This makes me wonder whether these levels sometimes look different for different individuals? OTOH, I have been quite ill with respiratory virus and associated asthma, so my coughing, wheezing, or amphetamine-like medication may be keeping my sleep in light range.

[IlliniDave]

I frequently come across nutrition-based strategies to manage IBDs including Crohn's. I'll assume you've explored both the Medicine 2.0 and Medicine 3.0 takes on that topic. Since what gut issues I had were relatively minor I never paid much attention to the in depth excursions down that trail. From what I can tell it's not so much based on supplements as it is based on what you eat or don't eat.

Sounds like you have good estrogen levels. That's the magic bullet that keeps the typical female much less prone to accumulation of visceral fat until later in life, and generally why women have much lower rates of cardiovascular disease until considerably later in life when they begin to catch up with their male counterparts as estrogen wanes.

Lower body strength is crucial as the birthdays accumulate. As time goes on, falls can be increasingly devastating, and strength in the legs and core are important to staying upright. Fighting off sarcopenia is a difficult challenge. Statistically rapid muscle decline is considered an age 60+ phenomenon. I'm gearing up for it by a big emphasis on strength training and on consuming high amounts protein (0.7 g/lb of body weight minimum) from the sources the body can most readily/efficiently use to counteract age-expected decline in nutrient absorption. That puts me at odds with the ere consensus on nutrition strategies (and on my strategy/approach to recover my metabolic health), but we've all got to weigh our array of goals and pick the best optimum in our individual trade spaces. So far, so good as far as my effort goes, but I'm only in the very first skirmishes of that war. Insofar as any competitions, mine is essentially iDave(today) versus iDave (last check), while I hope whatever ground I surrender is surrendered slowly.

[IlliniDave]

Hmmm...obviously not enough data yet, but my first night's sleep log indicates that I did have a fairly long REM cycle within an hour of falling asleep and another somewhat shorter cycle around an hour later, but at no point during the night did I actually achieve deep sleep. This makes me wonder whether these levels sometimes look different for different individuals? OTOH, I have been quite ill with respiratory virus and associated asthma, so my coughing, wheezing, or amphetamine-like medication may be keeping my sleep in light range.

I don't know much about fitbit as a sleep tracker (assuming that's what you used). It's quite possible that illness and medications interfered with your sleep, any list of things that cause suboptimal sleep will list them near the top. I don't know how much individual variation in sleep characteristics exist within what is believed to be "healthy" for humans. Insofar as guidelines exist, they don't seem to allow for a ton. I get occasional variation in my data, but I largely adhere to the light->deep->REM->light->deep->REM etc progression with decreasing exceptions regarding the initial @ 90 min REM pattern. But scrolling some previous nights' data I do see transitions from light->REM without a nearby deep occurrence (at least not one of sufficient duration to show up on my hypnogram).

I also checked back on the 3 days I had active covid, and I had decent deep sleep those nights. I'd say it's the stimulant and/or maybe your device wasn't measuring accurately.

[7Wannabe5]

I frequently come across nutrition-based strategies to manage IBDs including Crohn's. I'll assume you've explored both the Medicine 2.0 and Medicine 3.0 takes on that topic. Since what gut issues I had were relatively minor I never paid much attention to the in depth excursions down that trail. From what I can tell it's not so much based on supplements as it is based on what you eat or don't eat.

Yes, I have explored Med 2.0 and Med 3.0 on the topic of Crohn's and based on both my in depth research, consultations with medical professionals, and personal experimentation, my conclusion is that the notion that it can be appropriately mediated through dietary measures is pretty solidly bull-shit. Personal anecdotes of success by such means abound, but there is zero evidence that this is due to anything beyond the tendency of the disease to sometimes go into fairly long periods of remission. It is natural to form hypothesis that a disease that occurs in the digestive system might be correlated with dietary habits, but it simply isn't so, except at the extreme edge where resorting to an entirely liquid diet does sometimes help the severe pediatric cases. The discussion is also often confused by a layperson or unserious "expert" approach which would throw Crohn's Disease in the same basket with conditions such as Irritable Bowel Syndrome, when even the "disease" vs. "syndrome" might offer first clue that they are not even in the same ballpark. The human immune system is the second most complex system known in the universe, and although I absolutely agree that the medical industrial complex is thoroughly out of control, Crohn's Disease is really something nobody can intelligently talk about if they haven't studied human immunology at the graduate school level. And that is why I am now studying Human Immunology at the third year pre-med level rather than watching/reading any more layperson level bullshit on the topic.

End tirade, and that is absolutely not to imply that the approach you are taking for the sort of problems you are encountering is not both wise and appropriate. Obviously, lifestyle diseases abound and it's stupid to not attempt to alter lifestyle first if considering markers well-correlated with lifestyle choices. I am just at a juncture where I am getting pissed off at any suggestion that is rather akin to confusing Diabetes 1 with Diabetes 2, and mostly this is because I keep hoping that maybe it is DIY "curable", when I have to rationally accept that it isn't.

[IlliniDave]

... End tirade, and that is absolutely not to imply that the approach you are taking for the sort of problems you are encountering is not both wise and appropriate. Obviously, lifestyle diseases abound and it's stupid to not attempt to alter lifestyle first if considering markers well-correlated with lifestyle choices. I am just at a juncture where I am getting pissed off at any suggestion that is rather akin to confusing Diabetes 1 with Diabetes 2, and mostly this is because I keep hoping that maybe it is DIY "curable", when I have to rationally accept that it isn't.

Fair enough. For me wading into the pool of bullshit actually paid off. I insisted on actually trying the things practitioners had success with in their anecdotal case studies, and some of them worked. Others not so much. And none of it hurt anything, just took some time. Wise or appropriate or not, it simply worked. But it's quite conceivable your affliction is impervious to any solution other than pharmacologic tamping down or your immune system. I wasn't willing to accept that my collection of conditions wasn't DIY curable, or at least manageable, until I actually tried it.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, in my case it will hurt something, because if I go off the drug that is currently working for me, I may become resistant to it. I can't risk finding myself absolutely down for the count shitting out my own intestinal lining, blood, and bile on a daily basis. I don't want to risk finding myself with a fistula grown from my intestines to the surface of my skin, spewing out fecal matter continuously. I don't want to risk once again experiencing the pain that the alien bursting out of stomach scene in Alien resembles (the writer of scene has Crohn's disease.) I don't want to find myself thoroughly shitting my pants in public setting again. Etc. etc. etc.

Also, I did try a wide variety of dietary and other measures during the 18 months between my initial diagnosis and finding a drug that actually worked for me. And the fact that I was a less likely late onset case does not speak to the reality that most people suffer their first acute incident of Crohn's when young and often otherwise quite fit and healthy or the fact that it is a disease with genetic basis that existed even in primitive times. Not every problem can be solved through frugality and personal agency. This is hard for me to accept, but it is true. Eventually all of us will lose that which we call agency and then we will die and become compost. All any of us can do until then is our very best to run our own odds for ourselves.

[IlliniDave]

Well, in my case it will hurt something, because if I go off the drug ...

No, for something acute you probably wouldn't want to go off the medication. And if you'd have said you did your due diligence with dietary mods, and maybe that quips about downing jellybeans by the bagful were in jest, rather than in your words, going off on a rant, I wouldn't have said anything.

[7Wannabe5]

Oh, I actually have used the jellybeans in the past for home-testing my blood glucose levels under worst case scenario, but I don't do that anymore. My last 5 tests from university lab non-fasting were 94, 110, 73, 103, 91 mg/dL over the last few years. So, consistently in low normal range, and also consistent with my previous home jellybean trial testing I did when my health insurance had humongous deductible.

Also, although I definitely do have a sugar tooth myself, I was living with a dietary health conscious grouchy old man during the Covid lock-down when I first experienced acute Crohn's, and he was getting all of our groceries from a locked sanitary garage drop-off site. So, I was just eating what he bought, which included only very occasional token treats to keep me happy, and it might actually be the case that this really too fibrous barely digestible salad green, kind of like a cross between radicchio and over-grown dandelion, he kept buying and which we ate in large quantity many evenings was one of the "perfect storm" of triggers that set me off. Foods that are "too whole" can be towards too much of a good thing in a mostly mechanical invasive scraping object way for humans with an innate tendency towards Crohn's. Although soluble fiber due to its more jello coating like effect is more towards a good thing at the mechanical level. However, more likely environmental triggers would be the ibuprofen I was taking for bursitis related to being very pigeon-toed in my right leg combined with low Vitamin D levels due to reduced sun exposure. Anyways, it doesn't matter what "perfect storm" of triggers initiated my first acute incidence which sent my immune system out of control, because once that happens, you have Crohn's Disease for the rest of your life, although periods of remission are possible. For example, it's entirely possible that the acute appendicitis I had when 6 months pregnant in my mid-20s was actually my first incidence of Crohn's Disease which was mediated by the surgery and the fact that I spent the next year breast-feeding. I could go on and on with the possibilities.

Anyways, the current state of the research is that there is no good evidence for dietary intervention, but research continues. In fact, somebody just sent me a link for a research study on low sulfur diet. One of the problems I had when experimenting with other diets recommended for Crohn's Disease is that they are often in conflict with each other and also very dependent upon whether you are actively flaring with the disease. I experienced best results with entirely liquid diet, for reasons largely mechanical-the dietary composition of the liquid does not much matter, but after a few weeks, it was like I was just trading one set of symptoms for another set of symptoms. And I generally just kept getting worse and worse, and the first advanced biologic drug they tried on me for 6 months didn't work, and my lower intestine was becoming increasingly ulcerated, so I could only survive beyond the level of the life of a worm somebody smushed on the sidewalk after the rain by taking oral steroids, which are a terrible, terrible drug to take long term, so I was quite relieved when the second advanced biologic they tried immediately worked very well for me. Yay, Med 2.0 for the win!

[IlliniDave]

The end of the month numbers are in.

With the small hacks I put in place--mostly being careful with my evening routine and being more mindful of my eating window--I had a relatively normal first REM cycle timing 77% of the nights in March. I also noticed that several of the nights I I didn't have it I woke up briefly at about the 90 minute mark, like I overshot REM. I'm curious about what's up with that. They are not false detections by Oura, I really do wake up.

My average total sleep was down 25 minutes from February but my overall average for 2025 is about 34 minutes above my 2024 average, and March 25 was identical to March 24 at 6h38m. During March of 25, my little noon siestas accounted for about 29 minutes of the daily total, meaning my average nighttime sleep was around 6h9m, which isn't great. My average REM sleep was down a minute from February but still above my long-term average. Average Deep sleep was identical to February and the last 4 months have been the best 4 months for that parameter over the last 15 months.

The last 8 days I was using the wearable parasympathetic activator. Over such a short time the data isn't super meaningful, but total sleep went up by about 9 min, deep went up 6 min, and REM down 11 min. The most notable thing was that HRV went up 41%. Those 8 days were enough to pull the monthly average up and reverse a multi-month declining trend. A similar decline happened Jan-March of 24, and March 24 was my all-time low HRV month. March 25 was on pace to possibly take second place in that low HRV derby until the last 8 days yanked it up.

HRV is supposed to be important, but I've not really found a satisfying answer to why/how. Seems to be that when it's higher it's indicative of lower stress and better recovery.

My nighttime resting heart rate average for the month is still in the low 50s, more/less where it's been ever since I started the heavier strength training in June of last year. Prior to that it had been in the upper 40s, so only 2-3 bpm higher. I can't say why, but instinctively I'd like it to be lower.

So it's a mixed bag without a ton of progress. With my "normal" first REM cycle occurring at 90 minutes more than 3/4 of the time my concern about displaying early stage Alzheimer's/dementia symptoms is reduced. And I'm happy that the increase I started seeing in deep sleep last December has persisted. Deep sleep is associated with repair and maintenance of the body, and with cleanup/detoxification processes in the brain. My relative lack of REM is still bothersome, but on balance I've seen an upward trend since September of last year where it had bottomed out.

The sort of comical thing about all of this is that if I'd never bought the Oura ring I wouldn't think twice about my sleep. Other than my proclivity to nod off after a largish meal if I set myself up for it by being still and relatively inactive, I don't feel like I lack general energy or experience brain fog or any of the usual complaints.

Since it's a new month tomorrow I'm going to try some different things and maintain some of the things I broke in during March. One is that I'm going to do my best to skip naps, which tend to occur about 2 days out of 3. The other is I'm going to initially hold off on my daily slug of coffee until 600 am. There is a school of thought out there that says delaying caffeine for an hour or so after waking is good for one's circadian rhythm, but I never bothered to experiment with that. And Jacob mentioned something above that made a gear tumble in my noggin. For decades I woke up early, used the bathroom, then immediately started downing strong coffee to get through the salaryman grind. I used to drink coffee pretty much all day. Since retiring I've cut that back to a single "cup" first thing in the morning. No scientific randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study for this, but I wonder if part of the reason I have difficulty sleeping past 400 am is my body is expecting it's daily caffeine fix to happen around that time. I'll probably try that for the first two weeks then depending on how it goes, consider going without an caffeine at all. Given my consistent lights-out time, if I could just extend sleep to 500 AM or beyond regularly, I think my numbers might normalize. I've noted that most of my REM tends to occur over the last 2-3 hours of sleep. The last thing is I'm going to try to be a little less haphazard with breathing exercises. I don't think they'll do much for sleep, but they feel good to do.

In the anecdotal/subjective realm, there does seem to be something to the wearable vagal nerve activator I'm trying out. I can't rule out placebo effects, but, for example, I have to be careful with the "calm" and evening wind-down modes. Twice in the 8 days I've had it, I wound up falling asleep during my evening wind down ritual which is typically watching something on Netflix for an hour between playing guitar and getting in bed to read. Nothing screws up my sleep more than a nap at 700PM, especially when it's the second nap of the day, lol. The focus mode is noticeable while playing guitar as well.

[IlliniDave]

I mentioned a while back that I hadn't been monitoring my BP, and since testing season is coming up I decided it was about time to check in on that.

Average of 3 readings ~ 1 min apart: 118.0/72.3 58.7 bpm

That's a little above where I was BP-wise on a typical day last April (roughly, say, 110/66), but still in the Medicine 2.0 healthy range, which is good. If Medicine 3.0 has an update to a healthy BP range I'm not aware of it. Heartrate-wise that's on the low end of what I was typically seeing last April.

Obvious caveat is that it's only 1 reading. Another inconsistency is that I didn't think to do it until mid-coffee and my past routine was to measure before coffee. Over the next few days I'll some more measures away from caffeine).

Assuming I stay a little higher than last year my first thought about a cause is that I weigh about 10-12 lb more than I did in early April '24. My optimistic side wants to attribute most of that that difference to lean mass gains--10-12 lb over 10 months seems a reasonable lean mass gain, though more than I expected at my age. I don't have a direct way to measure that, but the clothes that fit me when I weighed in the upper 160s back last May still fit me in the low 180s, so at least I've avoided big visceral fat buildups.

Anyway, it's a relief to know I haven't slipped back into the 140+/90+ range where I was not so many years ago. 73% of men over 60 have hypertension, and being in the other 27% feels like a win. I no longer make any lifestyle choices with BP specifically in mind. That's a progression I've noted. Initially I was very interested in driving basic biomarkers into better ranges, but after 2.5 years or so at this my perspective has widened to more of a holistic one. The markers do still tell me something useful, but them being okay or even incrementally improved is no longer the magnitude of victory it once was.

Inspired by the competition thread I've decided to revisit my top level healthy aging goals. I haven't found my official list from earlier, but I remember it containing things like being able to wrangle my fishing kayak on and off my vehicle--functional goals, but narrow and short- to intermediate-term. I'd like to see if I can determine some that would extend beyond the time frame where being a faux rugged outdoorsman ceases to be a realistic possibility.

[IlliniDave]

Quick update to add that my decaffeinated numbers were 107/66 59 bpm, which is right in line with a year ago.

[mooretrees]

I’m sorta surprised that you haven’t been doing any Dexa scans with all your focus on metrics. Any particular reason why? They will definitely answer the lean muscle mass questions. I don’t really know, but gaining that much muscle mass in a year or two seems unlikely? Happy to be proven wrong.
For body fat percentage I found that photos were pretty useful to look at for myself. And that’s a very ERE adjacent way to “measure’ body fat.

[IlliniDave]

I’m sorta surprised that you haven’t been doing any Dexa scans with all your focus on metrics. Any particular reason why? They will definitely answer the lean muscle mass questions. I don’t really know, but gaining that much muscle mass in a year or two seems unlikely? Happy to be proven wrong.
For body fat percentage I found that photos were pretty useful to look at for myself. And that’s a very ERE adjacent way to “measure’ body fat.

I'd love to do a DEXA scan, but the nearest one I've found that an average joe can walk in to is something like 78 miles away and probably a 1.5-2hr drive each way. If there was one within a half an hour from me I'd have already had several (depending on the cost).

From what I've been able to find through casual use of Google is a typical person on a regular resistance training regimen can gain 1-2lb of muscle per month. So 12 lb in 10+ months seems to pass a simple sanity check. I have some baseline photos from last spring but I haven't taken an updated one. A problem with them is the baseline photos don't show my legs where I think most of the mass gain has occurred. Thanks for reminding me about that!

[mooretrees]

Interesting. I was only able to do a Dexa scan while visiting family who live in a major city. Since I did two and the body fat percentage matched my assessment based on photos, I am unlikely to do more. Measuring specific body parts over time also seems like a good way to track body composition changes. I use the scale and monthly photos to track as I get a little lazy with measurements.
If the extra weight is muscle then well done!

[IlliniDave]

Interesting. I was only able to do a Dexa scan while visiting family who live in a major city. Since I did two and the body fat percentage matched my assessment based on photos, I am unlikely to do more. Measuring specific body parts over time also seems like a good way to track body composition changes. I use the scale and monthly photos to track as I get a little lazy with measurements.
If the extra weight is muscle then well done!

It's the same with me, I'd have to go to the nearest big city metro area (Chicago, in my case) and I don't like big cities.

That makes sense and it's likely I could wind up doing similarly to you in getting a few done just to calibrate and then go on easy DIY measures from there. Supposedly the US Navy body fat measurement technique is pretty reliable for tracking body composition changes, although it's absolute accuracy is probably iffy. I'm not targeting a specific body fat % or anything, but would like some confirmation that my visceral fat is low, and to answer questions like my recent one about the distribution of my weight gain over the last year.