Low cost living and quality of life/safety issues

[C40]

"The super majority is being created and will permanently change the country."

Well let me be the first here to say that I, for one, welcome out new Bean-eating and accordion-playing Overlords.

(If you can't tell, this is a friendly joke. Also, I'm considering moving to Mexico or further south after quiting. So if I join debates like this, you guys don't get to say "well if you think they are so nice, about you go there / why are they all coming here/ etc..)

[George the original one]

> Learn the language

First you'd have to make English the official language. Right now, English is the de facto language, but it is not official.

[tylerrr]

As for solutions, i like the Swiss system.
Immigrants have qualifications to meet, then a time limit, followed by a citizenship vote from their native neighbors.
if you want to move here and be an American, great. Learn the language, assimilate, etc. What we don't need is little Juarez, pockets of foreign cultures that serve to galvanize some of the attitudes seen here.

And we need a guest worker policy that kills the black market for labor, and collects taxes. We need to provide a legit path the work here for those who would like to.

Both of your posts are right on the money for me..I feel your posts are the best, most sensible on the whole topic.

Yes, we should make it easier for law abiding immigrants to obtain a green card.

It was heartbreaking for me to know a Peruvian guy on the west coast who was here for years on a student visa going to college, paying twice the normal cost of in-state tuition. Once he completed his accounting degree, he could not find a large corporation to sponsor him for a work visa and possible future green card. So guess what?

He followed the law and had to go back to Peru. This is after he spent years working here in the states while being on a student visa. This was a guy who always followed the rules and went to college to get an accounting degree. What does our government do? They kick him out, a skilled, educated guy....and they instead let in millions of unskilled, uneducated people who don't follow the law so they can be used for virtual slave labor.

He gets punished for following the law. Conversely, the law breakers are getting rewarded...

It's completely unfair, and frankly stupid and inefficient for the United States as a whole. It makes me sick how this upside down system punishes people who try to do things the right way.

Even worse, there are actually Americans who encourage people to come here and break the law and cause more social problems instead of reforming the system in a sensible way.

[tylerrr]

@Tylerrr: It's not so much what you're saying as how you're saying it while judging entire nations and groups of people. Your language is offensive and reeks of supremacy. But God forbid anyone point that out because, oh, you're married to a Latina so you couldn't possibly be racist.

But, hey, this is all a pointless debate anyway because, in your words:

"The super majority is being created and will permanently change the country."

Arriba Mexico!

I can't help you if you're hellbent on accusing detractors of being "racist". I see you live in the SF Bay Area where I lived for 13 years. That explains a lot. The whole "racist, racist" thing makes a lot more sense now.

[Riggerjack]

Perhaps I was unclear. I am one of those Americans who encouraged the law breakers. I used cash. I'd do it again.

The law you want enforced is the cause of the problems you object to. I don't know how to be more clear.

[ohcanada]

As long as you all stay out of Canada and leave it free and wild

[llorona]

I can't help you if you're hellbent on accusing detractors of being "racist". I see you live in the SF Bay Area where I lived for 13 years. That explains a lot. The whole "racist, racist" thing makes a lot more sense now.

Oh, great. Another sweeping generalization.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Well let me be the first here to say that I, for one, welcome out new Bean-eating and accordion-playing Overlords.

Our culture could probably use some (stereotypically) Mexican influences. Strong family ties and work/life balance come to mind. And siestas? Who wouldn't want to spend half the afternoon napping on a work day? I mean, I already do sometimes, but still...

[JohnnyH]

This is America, people can say whatever the fuck they want... The vast majority of Americans have never lost their minds and started genociding each other, so let's not fix what isn't broken.
I really like Europeans, but I'd be lying if you guys didn't frighten me sometimes. The "fire in a theater" was used to throw a WWI protestor in jail, btw (and later overturned).

*fuck: for context and emphasis.

[workathome]

Our culture could probably use some (stereotypically) Mexican influences. Strong family ties and work/life balance come to mind. And siestas? Who wouldn't want to spend half the afternoon napping on a work day? I mean, I already do sometimes, but still...

I don't know man, the Mexican roofers here are literally working 14-16 hour days. I don't think they sleep at all.

[Riggerjack]

Yeah, back to that hate speech subject. Let me tell you a few stories about Ray. Back in the 90's, Ray was a friend's coworker. He was a old school punk, white,with head shaven. This is Fremont, one neighborhood more green state than blue, if you follow. Ray rides the bus. One day there's a cute black chick in the seat in front of him. Next stop, a big Mexican sits next to her and starts playing intimidation games with her. Ray grabs the guy's arm, and twists it back over the seat, pinning him. He tells the girl to get off at the next stop, and he will keep riding with the Mexican for a few more stops for some distance. He told us this over some brews after work the next day. I bring it up to show that while he may be quick to violence, it isn't because he's racist.
the next story of ray, he and 2 buddies are crossing the street at night, when a car runs the stop sign, and at low speed hits one of them. Then runs, running the next stop sign, and getting t-boned. Ray and the friend that didn't get hit, chase on foot. The driver and passenger get outand run. Ray and his friend chase them down, and in his words, kicked their asses. The friend that was hit, catches up, joins in, then they all go out for beers. The guy who was hit is bruised, and scraped, but intact, and they thought it was all about even.
that's how I heard the story a few nights later, anyway... a few days later, ray disappears. It turns out the beating was pretty severe, and the guy who. T-boned the car saw a car run the stop sign, tried to stop, but hit him. Then these skinheads jumped in and started kicking their asses! Then left before the cops got there.
now, I'll be the first to say that it sounds like Ray and company should be facing assault, and maybe the Indian driver should also be facing hit and run.
instead, ray is up for assault and hate crime sentencing, because 3 skinheads jumped 2 Indians without provocation.
ray was extremely liberal, but being white with a shaved head made his crime a hate crime. Seriously. Think on that when you talk about criminalized speech or thought crimes.

[Carlos]

I seem to be the only Mexican resident around here. I don't live in the cesspool of Tijuana; never been there so I can neither confirm nor deny.

The discussion lacks some context in my opinion. I hope this isn't offensive.

Mexico is a country of nearly 115 million people covering a vast area. Generalizing about Mexico based on Tijuana is like generalizing about the US based on Akron or Boise. Mexico is quite a developed country, sure there are wide variations but in general as a country it's achieve a FAR greater level of development than places like Honduras, Nicaragua or El Salvador.

Most of the kids flooding the border at the moment are not Mexican they are from the countries mentioned above.

The US bought or conquered nearly half of what was once Mexico (California, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona...). Culturally and linguistically the US and Mexico are linked much much closer than say with Germany or France. Millions of Americans live in these border states and speak English, Spanish or a combination of the two. Are these people less "American" than a WASP who lives in Boston?

Yes Mexican has it's problems with corruption and insecurity. Is it a cultural flaw or is the situation inflamed by the BILLIONS of dollars and weapons that flow into Mexico from the US, spoils from feeding the US insatiable appetite for illicit drugs.

Despite its flaws, where I live in Mexico is safer than where I used to live in the US. I'm a tall white guy and do stand out here.

Often I'll see kids from Central America carrying backpacks and begging for money at intersections near the train tracks. Little kids, like 12 to 14 years old. It's really sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kviJ2figeCA

[C40]

"This video is not available in your country" kind of funny!

I think i watched that on Netflix. Pretty interesting and sad at the same time.


Thanks for chiming in.

[tylerrr]

Perhaps I was unclear. I am one of those Americans who encouraged the law breakers. I used cash. I'd do it again.

The law you want enforced is the cause of the problems you object to. I don't know how to be more clear.

you said:
I was shocked to find that I'm only qualified by birth to work here. I was born here, so I don't need a green card. I'm qualified to apply, because I have family here. Other than that, Uncle Sam says F-off.
I'm a productive law abiding taxpayer, but I don't have unique qualifications, or a college degree, or a sponsoring company.
If I were born 1500 miles south, there would be no legitimate path for me to get a green card. Being fairly ambitious, I'd be here with whatever fake papers allowed me to get ahead.
all this calling to enforce existing laws ignores the complete inadequacy of current law.
we have a black market in labor and documentation. That is a regulatory failure. I blame Ted Kennedy, this is his BS law, anyway.



I'm agreeing that current law is horrible and should be changed to allow more legal immigration so we can get the workers we need in higher educated positions. As far as lower paying positions, I think companies should be forced to pay a decent wage instead of hiring illegal, virtual slave labor to fatten their corporate pockets...and we should cut back on welfare...Force more deadbeats sucking off the system to work by giving them more incentive and taking away their free lunch.

Back in the day, Americans used to be ashamed of taking handouts and work for a living...Now, it seems there are millions who have their hands out begging for more all the time(basically, the average Obama voter). A spoiled lot, huh?

You're just going to have to accept that I partly agree with you...I refuse to give-in and disagree anymore with you. You can't make me.

[Riggerjack]

My point was that one side wants to register the full undocumented population to vote, and the other calls for enforcement of existing law. There is no discussion of real solutions.
So long as Pedro is faced with a choice between breaking the law, and working/eating/sending money home, well we've seen the choice he'll make. So long as your solution is to punish Pedro for Ted Kennedy's failures, nobody's gonna listen to you, and you open yourself up to being branded as racist/evil/politically incorrect. Yes, I know, those throwing out those labels think they all really mean the same thing. All I've seen is that you are blunt, and lack empathy. Me too.I think we'll agree, when you start looking for working solutions, rather than rattling the cages of the weaker thinkers.

[George the original one]

> I'm agreeing that current law is horrible and should be changed to allow more legal immigration
> so we can get the workers we need in higher educated positions.

So who will work the positions not requiring education?

[jacob]

Here are the issues which a solution must take into account:

The market issues:

The world has a free market in goods and capital. Stuff and money can easily be transferred to anywhere in the world.

The world does not have a free market in labour. Except for a minority of highly-skilled (typically a masters degree equivalent + some specialized knowledge is required), most people are not free to move outside of the nation they were born into.

In summary of those two points: capital, labour, technology and its managers are free to move around for maximum efficiency, but labor/people are not.

The social/political issues:

Developed countries have social services that are paid for by those who work in said country to those who are allowed to live in said country. That is mostly people who are born there.

In summary: social services are not globalized; they operate based on citizenship. Furthermore, such services are not paid by "capital" or "goods" but by "labour".


The cultural/national issues:

Countries vary widely in terms of income and spending. Values are very strong culturally and are practically inate. It usually takes 1-2 generations past the original immigrant to normalize these patterns to the native status.

As a result, immigrants from less affluent countries tend to be more resource-efficient than nationals. However, since the income is generally much higher, they are willing to take jobs that natives won't. Furthermore they will enjoy surplus savings even on low income.

This is why immigrants come willing to take any job. This happens regardless of whether it's done legally (eastern Europeans immigrating to western Europe with EU passports) or illegally (US). It's simply a huge economic incentive---a "free" market in labour.

Nationals are generally (regardless of legality) not pleased that anyone---especially when they can be labelled with a group identity---is willing to take jobs they deem beneath them and actually prosper under those conditions. Lots of envy and resentment obtains. Even if unpaid social services wasn't an issue---and frankly I think it's more of an excuse for this issue---this would still be a problem.

Regardless of legality, you will always have arguments between "These immigrants are taking our jobs" and "I can't find any nationals willing to work these jobs".

In summary: it's not so much a question of law as it is one values clashing. Immigrant values can be seen as either a competition to existing values or they can be seen as an enhancement. Not surprisingly, whether it has to do with immigration or anything else; it comes down to whether people are resistive to new ideas or they welcome them. Most arguments are just a post-rationalization of those underlying sentiments.

So to summarize the entire discussion: We have three majorly important systems that guide human behaviour all of them are somewhat incompatible. And this is where the problem comes from ...


PS: Isn't it interesting how two of the biggest extreme frugality bloggers who both tend to significantly challenge the existing way of life are both [legal] immigrants? Also note that neither of us are really contributing our fancy degrees to the US economy any more.

[Riggerjack]

So, Jacob, you are more familiar with immigration law than I am. Did I miss a loophole somewhere? Can your average Pedro, without unique skills, university education, or corporate sponsorship just sign up somewhere and wait his turn to get a green card? My understanding is no.
I think that hollows out the "just enforce the laws we have" argument.
not that I object to educated immigrants, I just think the greatest immigrant contributions don't require college.

[llorona]

@Riggerjack: Not exactly, but there is this. Two years ago President Obama signed new legislation called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). It gives individuals 31 years or younger who immigrated illegally to the U.S. the chance to apply for a two-year stay from deportation, provided they arrived before their sixteenth birthdays and meet certain qualifications. Eligible youth have to either be in school, hold a GED or high school diploma, or have served in the military. They can't have any felony convictions. The cost to apply is $465.

In addition to protection from deportation, youth who receive DACA status are eligible to apply for Social Security numbers and employment authorization, which means they can hold jobs or enroll in higher education. Once their two-year period is up, they can reapply for another two years, at least under current legislation.

Supposedly up to one million youth in the U.S. are eligible to apply for DACA.

[Ego]

If you have an immediate family member who is a US citizen you can apply for a green card with their sponsorship.

The Diversity Visa Green Card Lottery is not available to Mexicans.