Frita’s Lost and Found

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Sclass
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Sclass »

Frita wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2024 3:39 pm
I certainly wish you safe passage as you navigate this.

Your story sparked an insight: A healthy relationship requires healthy enough behavior and communication from everyone involved.
You too. I’m actually safe. My dad’s ghost hasn’t bothered to visit. I walked out of my attorney’s office this week and inked the final property transfers. It’ll be good to say goodbye to the old house.

You’re early retired. Your husband stopped working. If you are serious about this you’ll eventually need to seize assets and bankroll your new life. This will require lawyers, divorce and possibly looking like the bad guy. At this point I’d be so ready to kick your husband to the curb I wouldn’t care who thought what.

Not sure of your exact constraints. You’ll need to have a honest discussion with your son about this. My mom did not. Good luck.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I am very sorry to learn that your find yourself in this harrowing situation. I must say that I very much admire how self-actualized you have become while not being assured of basic physical safety. I have never been physically abused by a long-term partner, but even a bit of furniture breaking tends to send me in to some variety of dysfunctional mode such as "I will let myself gain 25 lbs, so I can sneak out of the backdoor of this relationship with less possibility of being stalked." On the other hand, it has been my experience that an adequate "moat and drawbridge" can often be constructed without the need for 100% no contact/no second degree relationship ties. Most/many men are fairly territorial and the sort of coward who will resort to violence against a woman in his own home may be effectively kryptonited in an environment that is "strange" enough. For example, just renting a room in a house that is owned by another man and inhabited by several other people might enough of a barrier.

I definitely also have my own unique mix of FOO issues, and my observation has been that rather akin to "theory and practice" or "the tortoise and the hare", both therapy and the formation of practical physical boundaries/distance are necessary to eventually arrive at appropriate level of self-aware self-care.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

Before I left for my three month sabbatical, I washed our windows. It’s windy, lots of trees and pollen, and smoke from the now yearly fires. When I got back, it seemed like the light in the house was distorted. Yesterday it was finally cloudy and the perfect window washing weather. I wasn’t able to finish before the sun came out again, there are some spots around the edges that I missed, but the contrast is striking. The view is the same only much clearer, and it feels more like being outside. It’s probably a hopeful metaphor for my life as a single person. At this point, all I am capable of is being open to that.

My spouse continues to isolate in his room downstairs. He comes and goes, continually sighing, disappearing for hours at a time (even late at night) without a word. Our son was telling me yesterday that he’d requested he gave him a heads up if he’s going out and when to expect him home, especially if he’s out in the wilderness alone (bear and mountain lion season). He agreed and hasn’t followed through.

When I asked DS how he was feeling, he said he was concerned. Earlier this summer a man just disappeared and still hasn’t been found. Dead bodies show up from time to time around here. I validated that it is worrisome that his father no longer engages, knowingly refuses to comply with a reasonable request, and will not be responsible enough to get help. We had a good talk about healthy relationship behavior and mental health.

My spouse has threatened to kill himself in the past, the “take a walk in the woods” thing. When I told him we loved him and would miss him, offering support and encouraging him to get help, the behavior continued. (Making threats is a power and control tactic. When I told him that I would call the police for a wellness check if he said that again, he stopped.) I have to say that I feel concerned too. Ultimately, if he doesn’t want to communicate, that’s his choice. If we notice he just disappears for an extended time, I can file a missing person’s report.
cimorene12 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:25 am
ertyu wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:07 pm
With some reflection, I realize that I was defensive with my responses to cimorene and ertyu. Instead I lashed out. I know you were trying to help, not get your head bit off. I am sorry. Let me try again:
• Thank you for your support. I am feeling fragile and ashamed. I want to be defensive and need to communicate instead.
• What prompted seven months of seeking 2-hour weekly individual domestic violence counseling was searching for group therapy or a professional-supported support group. (National groups refer local.) There are none.
• There was one focused on women, gave GED assistance, and offered a CDL training so we can earn a decent living and leave. Lack of education or money (in theory) are not my barriers to leaving.
• My counselor was trying to start a group before she left. She told me there are other women in the community who are in my situation. Only I was interested. There is a lot of shame and isolation, especially in my demographic.
• I tried three different online groups. Lots of venting, blaming, feeding off of the chaos. Not much reflection, encouragement, disengagement from the drama.
• There is a local Divorce Care group. It is religious and a form of ministry. I don’t think it is right for me.
• Lack of awareness or comprehension of abuse are not challenges.
• I feel stupid and embarrassed for being in this situation. In the future, could you please ask questions and/or share your experience with what worked for you?
Sclass wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:28 pm
I’m actually safe. My dad’s ghost hasn’t bothered to visit. I walked out of my attorney’s office this week and inked the final property transfers. It’ll be good to say goodbye to the old house.

You’re early retired. Your husband stopped working. If you are serious about this you’ll eventually need to seize assets and bankroll your new life. This will require lawyers, divorce and possibly looking like the bad guy. At this point I’d be so ready to kick your husband to the curb I wouldn’t care who thought what.

Not sure of your exact constraints. You’ll need to have a honest discussion with your son about this. My mom did not. Good luck.
It sounds like you’re in a peaceful spot emotionally. I imagine that sorting through the house and letting it go is quite healing.

The ER dynamic makes this more challenging in some ways. As Jacob pointed out, it can create conditions where one can be more of who they are. Ironically, my spouse’s being true to himself (and/or decline into untreated mental health issues) has created a situation where I am even less of myself and more isolated. It requires leaving. It requires reclaiming access to my money beyond having a credit card and submitting receipts. I have enough data that the only way there will be a non-lose for me is going to be a battle. Shit.

I want to say that positive impression management is my spouse’s thing. Not true. When I first realized early on that my spouse was abusive and annulment seemed like an option, I did not reach out to my friends who would have supported me. No, I asked my mom with a history of dysfunctional relationships for advice and she said stay. I ignored friends over the years who called out his BS based on their observations and said leave. We kept moving for his career and then his friends were my friends. (It takes time to develop close friends too.) Yeah, I care about being viewed as a victim. I need to think more about that.

You mentioned an honest discussion with my son about constraints and that your mom didn’t. I don’t think I follow. Could you elaborate?
Last edited by Frita on Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:42 am
Thanks, I am identifying more with “red, hot mess” these days. I like to think being with my spouse has given me the opportunity to do a lot of work on myself. People really love my spouse unless they are more peripheral and observing his behavior. He uses this to control and manipulate with the “Everyone else likes me. You’re the problem. If you were different, I would be like that with you.” I knew this was BS, played along until I believed it, and realized his behavior was the problem when I exhausted my self-improvement project.

Breaking furniture as a pattern of behavior is not healthy. Getting the hell out of there is healthy. My pattern is more, “I know this is unhealthy but I will stay because I am married and made a commitment to do my part.” I literally had no marriage dealbreakers and thought any issue was able to be resolved and worth it. I am certain that was part of what attracted him to me. Getting out quickly prevents the abuse snowball (hindsight) and necessitation of more elaborate planning.

Thanks for pointing out balance in response. I am so stressed/overwhelmed/whatever and acting out of sorts. Lately, I just suddenly fall asleep and want to nest with my Sherpa blanket and read. I am isolating myself and that’s not good. And some comfort eating too.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I like to think being with my spouse has given me the opportunity to do a lot of work on myself.
I think the majority of the highly intelligent humans in my marriage support group, myself included, went through a similar phase. And the statement is not without some truth, but this is a variety of truth that doesn't account for mortality, as in "Yes, you alone as a highly functioning individual with high degree of insight and perseverence may eventually find "success" engaging in multiple roles of partner, therapist, and life coach (this happened so frequently in my group we abbreviated it to COTU (inhabiting the center of the universe chair in your marriage))...but death may claim you first." It very much might not seem like it now from where you are now collapsed and coping, but it very much seems to me that you are on what I recognize as the path to the emergence "good enough" divorce.
I knew this was BS, played along until I believed it, and realized his behavior was the problem when I exhausted my self-improvement project.
Exhausting your self-improvement project is not quite the same as coming to the end of your self-improvement project. When you come to the end, his behavior will no longer be a problem because your perspective will be elevated to a place where you see your way out as primarily a set of practical tasks as easy as putting the trash in the Hefty bag and hauling it to the dumpster, although there will still be some highly emotional moments. The average human only persists for around three months in a primary relationship that is significantly out of power balance (you clearly being the partner who actually holds more personal power), so I congratulate you on your fortitude in hiking with stinky bloated albatross on shoulders. I also hasten to inform you that the humans who are most likely to answer "Yes" to the question "Would you leave if God or equivalent gave you permission to do so?" are the humans most likely to find themselves very happy with their decision to divorce 5 years after the fact.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:53 pm
I appreciate being able to vicariously benefit from your (former?) marriage support group. It is fascinating that as I try to transition from exhausted options to the end, his behavior gets worse. Yesterday I discovered all my professional documents were gone out of our file cabinet. After much searching, he gave me a jumbled banker’s box of items I need to go through while repeatedly saying, “See, I didn't throw anything away.” It’s like a sadistic Where’s Waldo? exercise to discover the latest vindictive act of sabotage. Mindboggling.

When I say that my spouse gave me the opportunity to work on myself, it’s somewhere between brightsiding myself with toxic positivity and being sarcastic about being chronically blamed for everything. I figured he needed time to mature emotionally which fueled my “It’ll be better when” denial: he finishes grad school, gets a job, gets a better job , has kids, retires. None of that made a difference, though I notice a sharp escalation in his depression and anxiety post-ER.

As I no longer have a lick of frustration tolerance, his protest behavior is getting worse. A “good enough divorce” is sounding more appealing, not just something I’d be willing to consider. This is progress albeit very slow. You predicted I’d get there.

The odd thing is that I don’t feel any religious obligation to stay married or try to make things work. It is my own moral code. I have done what I could on my end. So…I am giving myself permission to part ways with first husbands who don’t pull their weight in the relationship. I know that I did everything I could short of being codependent. And good things are happening, like actually enjoying(!) my mammogram today in comparison to being exposed to his shenanigans.

My next thing is to recreate a routine and stabilize. Being this fried, I don’t know that I want to start a high conflict divorce. The no longer having direct control of my finances is a challenge. Part of me thinks I will just suck it up and get a job until I am eligible for my pension. (It might be a nice distraction and an excuse to move. He could maintain his public image, something from which I could be free.) I think that would make whatever battle more of a moot point. Now I live in back burner-level fear of having my credit card canceled, though I spend very little. I’d rather have an interesting job than some barista FIRE. I also wonder what the reality of our finances are. Is money hidden or being squandered on stupid shit? Who knows, nothing would surprise me…forensic accounting is an option when the time comes.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It is my own moral code.
Yes, this was also my take on this likelihood of divorce regret factoid; just replace "God" with "complex agglomeration of all that informs my own moral code."

A thought I had even prior to reading your most recent post is that the combination of not fitting in with usual non-profit-supported abused woman needing services/support profile and the fact that it seems like the power dynamic in your marriage is largely playing out in the financial realm is that maybe your tendencies towards frugality are limiting your ability to take what would be the obvious next move for most women in similar situations, which would be obtaining the services of a very good divorce attorney. There are very few DIY projects I've undertaken, even the many that have failed tremendously, for which I regret not hiring an expensive professional instead, but I do regret DIY-ing my own divorce, not for financial reasons, but because it delayed my ability to fully move on with my own life independently. This goes back to one of the concepts I learned in my support group which is that when you enter into a contract, you have two forms of responsibility; the responsibility to hold up your end AND the responsibility to enforce the other end. Your husband does not possess the right to harm you physically AND he does not possess the right to maintain solo knowledge and control over your joint financial assets.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:43 am
Hm, I never considered if my frugality is hindering my hiring a lawyer. (But we have very different attitudes toward money, which adds to the friction. This has increased in ER.) As long as the retainer could go on my credit card and it wasn’t denied, no problem. More than anything, I would prefer to not have a high conflict divorce. (This is probably like hoping water isn’t wet.) I would want someone, who isn’t brash and litigious, yet could mitigate any drama. Holding on to the green marriage dream, from my more idealistic days, that it’s going to happen.

I have always thought of my marriage being more of a covenant than a contract. If it’s more like a contract and easily dissolved, why bother with getting married? If it’s not a contract, there’s more of a possibility for unrealistic unconditional love. Regardless, the controlling behaviors aren’t okay, yet it turns out my spouse is more of a rules-don’t-apply-to-him sort of person.

Today I took my wedding ring off.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Frita, I've been following along and wish you the best in navigating all this.

Don't know if you've read that book, but just thought I'd share: "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty".

Even if I have disagreements with it, I've found it valuable in various respects, but more pertinently here on how to escape boxes aka situations that restrain our freedom (such as bad relationships and marriage). Seeing how everything we want has a price attached to it, that there are always options, recognizing what we are giving up by choosing (and also doing or not doing) something and mustering the willingness to pay the price for freedom once we determine what it takes.

It helped me to untangle and move on from a long-term relationship that was not going anywhere despite best efforts, because of our inherent incompatibility, causing suffering, disappointment and stagnancy along the way.

I believe you can easily find a PDF copy online, otherwise, I'd be happy to send by pm.

Bon courage!

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Sclass
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Sclass »

Frita wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:43 am
You mentioned an honest discussion with my son about constraints and that your mom didn’t. I don’t think I follow. Could you elaborate?
I’ve tried to explain it but I cannot. It just comes out wrong.

All my life my mom was hurt by my dad. She said she wanted to get away but she kept staying with my dad. Even after they divorced she shared my dad six months a year with my step mom. He lived between two households.

I disapproved but the only way mom kept me around them was to say she wanted out. For thirty years. I wanted to believe her. But after she got dementia there was no disguising what she really wanted. The problem was I got sucked into it.

This reminds me of how lovers triangles are held together by one party saying they want to leave their marriage and they will soon but they don’t. But I was her son, not her lover. And I wanted my mom in my life but not my dad.

I would have been a lot happier abandoning my father. But mom was in the middle.

I don’t know what your constraints are. That is I don’t know what you can and cannot do. My mom’s may be quite different.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:43 am
the fact that it seems like the power dynamic in your marriage is largely playing out in the financial realm
That is true. After the kids were born, they both had high needs and one was in and out of the hospital. I ended up staying home for a year and a half, which I am glad I did. My husband took over all of our finances to help. He worked and picked up additional time consuming hobbies, like bow hunting and golf and partying with his work crowd. I think this was his way to cope using his emotional skillset. I appreciated that he could use his skills to help, but it became an adult-child money dynamic that he doesn’t want to shift.

Example of this dynamic: While I was crewing, my spouse bought a new four-piece oven mitt set for $12.97 from Walmart. ( I am the solo potholder user around here. ) They are crammed in a drawer that is now hard to open. They are ugly, feel cheap, and don’t match or coordinate with our decor. I prefer to minimize buying from Walmart. I understand the need to replace ovenmitts after they have holes burnt into them even if there are multiple alternatives. It would have been nice to have a discussion and some sort of compromise (two, beautiful, perhaps from a local store or artist). But it wasn’t brought up and I’m not a mind reader , so there was no opportunity. When I asked if we could have just two in there, he told me that I am cheap and want to use threadbare ovenmitts. There just isn’t any compromise stemming from not even seeing my point of view and his black-and-white thinking.

Current understanding of my underlying Two unmet needs: 1) adult-relationship with money, 2) consideration, communication, and cooperation to make win-win decisions collaboratively

My spouse’s parents were divorced with ongoing conflict even now that his father is deceased. His mother had/has mental health and substance issues. She would overspend and hide purchases and sleep around. He was abusive. She and her second husband (also deceased) fought constantly and filed bankruptcy twice. I see a lot of this baggage at play. My part was not getting to know these people and forming my own impressions before getting married.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:20 am
"How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World: A Handbook for Personal Liberty"
Thank you, I have read it and obviously don’t have it memorized.
I need to reread Chapter 13: The Box Trap and need to think about it more. 5w7 had referred to the marriage box as well as alternative containers with an option to renegotiate. The latter is certainly more appealing to me, hence, but I see that I am in that box nonetheless from my “exhausted self-improvement project.” The “end of my self-improvement project” is paying the price for a better outcome. My perseverance and preference for possibilities are major liabilities here. Much more work to do here.

Sclass wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:47 am
I’ve tried to explain it but I cannot. It just comes out wrong.
I appreciate you clarifying and can only imagine what an unnecessarily painful situation this was/is.

***This is my attempt to paraphrase. I value your insight and want to not leave a necessary conversation with my son on the table. If it is out-of-line, let me know and I will delete it.****

It sounds like you didn’t want a relationship with your dad, just your mom. In order to have a relationship with your mom, your dad was part of the package. Your mom needed a buffer to have a relationship with your dad, either you or your step-mother. This put you in a double-bind with your mom, lose her or deal with your father. Once your mom had dementia, it was clear she was using and controlling you. It sounds like you felt manipulated and would have just left, knowing what you know now. Maybe you would have preferred that she consider and accept how you felt and what you wanted, no contact with your dad? Maybe you would have liked her to be self-aware and honest enough to paint a clear picture to make a fact-based decision for yourself?
————————

Drama Triangles are certainly a thing. The chaos results from moving positions. Staying in them results in more unresolved conflict. I like Choy’s Winning Triangle model: softening one’s position to assertive (persecutor), caring (rescuer), vulnerable (victim). The connection I made with your story was at some point, these positions mean leaving, not using these new attributes to remain in dysfunction.

I discern that I cannot have a continued relationship with my husband as he is. He will not help himself. He wants a relationship in which he alternates between Persecutor and Victim positions. I want a relationship with my son. My son wants a relationship with his dad and me. (This is confusing. I need to diagram these triangles out.)

Dialoguing with my son: I can talk with him to see how he feels and what he wants. I can reflect on whether I am being self-serving or truly honoring his wishes. I can consider if I, myself, experience some comfort in the chaos. I can accept that with me out of the picture, they can sort out their own father-son relationship. There’s probably other things, too, so suggestions welcome. Is any this part of the conversation you would have liked your mom to have with you?

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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Frita wrote:I have always thought of my marriage being more of a covenant than a contract. If it’s more like a contract and easily dissolved, why bother with getting married? If it’s not a contract, there’s more of a possibility for unrealistic unconditional love.
I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn that the "covenant vs. contract' issue was also addressed in my marital relationship forum. The way in which the more religious members of the group eventually found resolution absent the possibility of divorce or engagement of spouse was to realize that a "covenant" is what you make with God, a "contract" is what you make with another adult human. IOW, a human who has faith in God's unconditional love and believes that marriage is a sacrament can find peace within this paradigm even in an objectively terrible marriage. The more recently conceived romantic notion of unconditional love in marriage is more of a weak Traditional/Modern cusp concept. For better or worse (ha!), one thing I have learned is that the concept/construct of "marriage" varies a good deal. However, the reality on the ground is that we live in a predominantly Modern, secular society, so divorce exists as an option for either party to contract.
It became an adult-child money dynamic that he doesn’t want to shift.
Interesting coincidence is that I recently came to the conclusion that keeping my own spreadsheets most every morning is core to my notion or practice of financial independence. Maybe because I was the adult in the adult/child money dynamic in my first marriage for quite a few years before I even obtained my first full-time job when my youngest reached school-age. Arrow to higher level view would be note that both spend-thrift and highly frugal humans often prefer a great deal of autonomy over money matters. Just like high sex drive spouses want the freedom to get laid and low sex drive spouses want the freedom from being hassled for sex.

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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Laura Ingalls »

I would like to contribute to anyone reading this that there are many good ways to manage finances in a relationship. DH and I have joint accounts and a joint, flexible “spending plan”. Jacob and his wife keep things separate.

Please remember that letting the other partner just take care of it all probably is not the best solution. Let Frita’s situation be a cautionary tale. Being the less involved partner is probably ok. Being an uninvolved partner either by choice or because the partner is being controlling is not cool. All relationships end eventually and being in the loop and having access and financial knowledge is important.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

Laura Ingalls wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:54 pm
Let Frita’s situation be a cautionary tale…All relationships end eventually and being in the loop and having access and financial knowledge is important.
This is very true. I would caution to watch out for stressful times when takeovers can occur as we used to have finances more like LI. Even if I was suddenly widowed or my spouse had a severe medical emergency, I would be in a pickle right now. (This, plus a “people might think less of you,” is a good angle to wiggle.)

The last couple days I have been working on liberating my 403(b) so I am directly monitoring it.

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Sclass
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Sclass »

Frita wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:53 pm
I discern that I cannot have a continued relationship with my husband as he is. He will not help himself. He wants a relationship in which he alternates between Persecutor and Victim positions. I want a relationship with my son. My son wants a relationship with his dad and me. (This is confusing. I need to diagram these triangles out.)

Dialoguing with my son: I can talk with him to see how he feels and what he wants. I can reflect on whether I am being self-serving or truly honoring his wishes…… Is any this part of the conversation you would have liked your mom to have with you?
Sounds like you have a good idea what’s at stake. This is complex. While it’s good to know what your son wants you cannot let that decide what you want or need.

What did I want from my mom? I wish she hadn’t been so deceptive. Yes it might have resulted in me abandoning her. So I understand why she hid her true desire to stay with my father from me. In the end I realize I wasted a lot of time suffering their drama. I got mad, I fought and I worked hard to fight something my mother was actively sabotaging behind the scenes. If I had a better picture of what everyone wanted I could have saved a lot of time and grief. But expecting them to be honest and losing their connection to me may be expecting too much.

I don’t know if there is any right answer. Your story just reminded me that my own mother was not very forthcoming with me. That ended up wasting a lot of my life.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Frita wrote:This, plus a “people might think less of you,”
Eh, and other people might think that it is garden variety normal to "lose' or 'give up" some forms of functioning or relative functioning in a long-term committed relationship. It could be worse; I allowed my first husband to become the "pretty" one in our relationship. I am entirely confident in your ability to regain your functioning as the popular-aggressive_asshole-financial_managing one absent the presence of your husband.

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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by suomalainen »

More than anything, I would prefer to not have a high conflict divorce. (This is probably like hoping water isn’t wet.) I would want someone, who isn’t brash and litigious, yet could mitigate any drama. Holding on to the green marriage dream, from my more idealistic days, that it’s going to happen.
This is a huge red flag, and one that you can solve yourself: you absolutely must be a realist now. Negotiate with the counter-party you have, not the counter-party you wish you had. After all, if he was the counter-party you wish you had, you wouldn’t even be considering divorce.

Also, it takes two to have a high-conflict divorce. You have your rights under state law. Either he respects that in negotiations or he’ll respect that when a judge rules on it. Given your son’s age, the only thing to fight over is money and if you don’t engage in some emotional tangle over the house or the bed or the jewelry or whatever, the conflict can remain on his side.

Frita
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Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by Frita »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:12 pm
I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn that the "covenant vs. contract' issue was also addressed in my marital relationship forum.
;) Covenant is a multiple meaning word, and I can certainly appreciate the cleverness of choosing the relationship with God as a distinguishing feature. Since I find myself married to a transactional person, my covenant has to shift to contract. Baby steps or my gray thinking? Probably a bit of both. Unlearning to relearn…the trend in starting from a contract if marrying might be skillful. As you said, there are many definitions of “marriage.” Mine, the one I am shedding, is something from 1950.
Sclass wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2024 7:18 am
If I had a better picture of what everyone wanted I could have saved a lot of time and grief. But expecting them to be honest and losing their connection to me may be expecting too much.
The words that stood out when you described your mother’s interactions with you were deceptive and sabotaging. From a young age trusting our parents, especially our mothers, is key for survival. It is impossible to make a trust-based, informed decision with a self-interested, self-sabotaging person, dishonest, and manipulative person (much less two). Disentangling is even harder. I appreciate your willingness to allow me to benefit from your hard-learned lesson.

Our son having different needs and wants and being able to verbalize them is healthy differentiation. I support him having a relationship with his dad to see how it shakes out. Any pressure I have does not come from my son, rather my spouse’s manipulation efforts and my values-reality accommodation challenges.
suomalainen wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2024 1:42 pm


This is a huge red flag, and one that you can solve yourself: you absolutely must be a realist now. Negotiate with the counter-party you have, not the counter-party you wish you had. After all, if he was the counter-party you wish you had, you wouldn’t even be considering divorce.

Also, it takes two to have a high-conflict divorce. You have your rights under state law. Either he respects that in negotiations or he’ll respect that when a judge rules on it. Given your son’s age, the only thing to fight over is money and if you don’t engage in some emotional tangle over the house or the bed or the jewelry or whatever, the conflict can remain on his side.
Thanks for your reality check. Of course, you’re right. I am using emotional reasoning in what I wrote. Get what I have coming and move along. Some green conscious decoupling isn’t going to be squeezed from this turnip. The only tangible item that might be an issue would be our daughter’s urn. I’d be fine with our son keeping it, spreading her ashes, or burying her. Really, her twin has the biggest say on that one.

This makes me question the find-a-job strategy for money I won’t need. It might be trying to zero out to done alternate past for control or manage some feelings of rejection. The last couple days I have been declutterring as lower hanging fruit as practice.

suomalainen
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Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Frita’s Lost and Found

Post by suomalainen »

Putting aside the emotional aspects (which, of course, are 95% of it), I'd encourage you to talk to a lawyer. And I hope, hope, hope he hides assets. Judges love that.

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