How do ERE men attract women?

[Frita]

Lots of good suggestions, here are a few more ideas from a long-married person (32 years, same guy).

Work on getting to know yourself and be comfortable with who you are, whether or not you’re alone. Fake people are not appealing any longer than short-term to authentic people.

Also, a long-term marriage or partnership is a form of friendship. Meet and make friends with people who enjoy the things you do. Practicing being a good friend, learn about the gal, and don’t push the relationship thing. That part can come together quickly.

And regarding your strategy to find a less life-experienced partner, what advantage does that yield? I’d suggest you deserve someone who knows herself and is compatible with you, not just some gal who doesn’t know any better.

[Seppia]

Agreed with Frita.
But there seem to be two main approaches to finding a partner
1/ finding someone who is your peer and that is a companion in your life tourney
2/ finding someone who is subject to you and will basically be the “beta” in the relationship.
Approach 2 requires less compromising and adjusting but I know what I prefer.
I would grow tired of someone who is not my equal in a relationship (same as with friendships)

[ertyu]

And regarding your strategy to find a less life-experienced partner, what advantage does that yield?

+1. Work on your own feelings of insecurity or inferiority. Searching for a partner who will not trigger them instead of confronting them head-on is pathetic.

[Stahlmann]

My idea of having a bit less successful socioeconomically partner is based on article below:

https://www-rp-pl.translate.goog/plus-m ... r_pto=wapp

[theanimal]

Before Mrs. Animal and I started dating I hadn't had a girlfriend or dated anyone in 10 years. Some of that was definitely due to where I was living. There are very few options for finding a mate when you live in Arctic Alaska in a town of 14 people. After I started doing forestry work and started to make some friends within that world, they'd offer advice on what I should do to find a girlfriend. One of the guys had similar interests to me, lives on top of a mountain ridge with his wife and 3 kids, a mile from the nearest road and far out of town. He said that he didn't find his wife until he built his first cabin. He would always tell me "You just need to build a house and you'll get a wife."

A couple years pass with still no luck and nobody within sight as a potential match. By that point I was ready to throw in the towel on seeking someone out after a couple rejections. I had purchased land and was getting ready to build a house. Mrs. Animal and I were on the same work shift that summer and she had just moved up to Fairbanks from the Anchorage area. She was looking for friends so we started hanging out and she ended up helping me out on the very first night of construction. In fact, that night she had to call her boyfriend at the time for advice as i had no idea what I was doing. Things progressed after that and by the time the house was finished, we were engaged.

I think finding a partner can be a lot like seeking happiness. If you explicitly pursue either you are more often than not bound to find misery and disappointment. That's not to say to do nothing. But I think it's more valuable to make yourself the most desirable partner you can be. Instead of focusing on finding the right characteristics in another person, think what makes you a worthy match? If you build it, they will come.

[7Wannabe5]

I think it's kind of interesting how some of you are offering kind of the opposite advice when it comes to dating/relationships than offered elsewhere on this forum when it comes to jobs.

Do you make yourself into the ideal candidate and then "the work will come to you" or do you acknowledge that you are not ideal and attempt to learn and improve through the process? I mean, one of the primary purposes of intimate relationships is to find and push each others buttons towards growth. One of my ex-partners, with whom I am now friends, was recently dumped by another woman for a number of reasons, one of which was proximate to one of the reasons I dumped him, and he said "I always thought that couples have to fight, but maybe the way my father expressed anger in his relationship with my mother was not a good model to follow." Ka-Ching! Lightbulb moment! The good thing about just getting out there and dating a lot is that you can very quickly get a goodly number of other humans to either reject you or push some of your more obvious buttons very quickly. IOW, as in many things, no pain, less gain.

I should note that I am addressing this to myself as well as OP, since I am currently avoiding dating anyone new due to being too chubbo. Dating through the shame would likely be more constructive, one way or the other.

[jacob]

I think it's kind of interesting how some of you are offering kind of the opposite advice when it comes to dating/relationships than offered elsewhere on this forum when it comes to jobs.

Do you make yourself into the ideal candidate and then "the work will come to you" or do you acknowledge that you are not ideal and attempt to learn and improve through the process? I mean, one of the primary purposes of intimate relationships is to find and push each others buttons towards growth.

Three stages (Kegan levels if you will)... maybe there are more.

1) Trying to find the ideal match individual. (Usually an exercise in frustration)
2) Becoming the ideal match individual.
3) Focusing on relationships as a couple.

Different advice/questions will be given according to where people are in the process.

The analogous career advice would be
1) Find the career you're passionate about.
2) Find the job you're good at.
3) Concentrate on being a good worker.

[Seppia]

I think it's kind of interesting how some of you are offering kind of the opposite advice when it comes to dating/relationships than offered elsewhere on this forum when it comes to jobs.

I don't see why the approaches should match.
A partner is (should be?) 1/ for life 2/ someone you will raise your kids with. So the key is that your values are aligned and that you have a similar approach with regards to defining what is important and meaningful in life.

Work can be temporary and serves other goals. An alignment in values is a nice plus but is not foundational.
I would add: with very few exceptions, companies don't have "values" regardless of what they say. They (mostly) try to stay away from legal trouble and want to maximize profits.

[theanimal]

I also think the same approach is true with regards to work. If you demonstrate you have a really good skill, product whatever, then your work will sell itself. A very basic example of this would be this very blog and Jacob's ensuing book. Another would be @AxelHeyst's recent forays into whether he could pick up regular income without trying, For most fields, that won't be true in a salaryman style job. That being said, I have seen multiple people that were hired based on their twitter or blog posts (their proof of work) at high end finance firms like Ritholtz Wealth Management and O'Shaughnessy Asset Management in salaryman roles. Yes, some of these are rockstar professions but if money is a solved problem, I don't see why this approach would be any different for a job than for a lifetime partner.

[7Wannabe5]

Three stages (Kegan levels if you will)... maybe there are more.

Well, the fourth would have to be Tier 2 acknowledgment of the needful contribution of previous layers. For example, if you can't cycle back to "cherishing" your wife at (1), and if you don't maintain the skills/qualities necessary to "seduce" her at (2), you will just be throwing effort down the drain at (3.) Roughly analogous to your take on what often happens when humans who mostly rely on high-level social skills gather round a table to reach consensus on a problem.

@Seppia:

Yes, but what happens as your relationship increases in intimacy, and you become more aware of the unique ways in which your partner's values/preferences/purpose/goals do not exactly align with your own. Also, humans can grow and change through adulthood, so it is even possible for one partner's essential truth to alter to the extent that their very definition of "marriage" may change. Conflict is inevitable no matter how mutual and deep the commitment.

@the animal:

I absolutely agree that the same approach is true with regards to work, because it has fairly frequently happened to me. That's why I was wondering (not criticizing) about the difference I perceived in work vs. relationship advice. Anyways, I would note that this observation was helpful for me, because made me realize that I am currently keeping myself stuck at (2) in both realms.

[Seppia]

@Seppia:

Yes, but what happens as your relationship increases in intimacy, and you become more aware of the unique ways in which your partner's values/preferences/purpose/goals do not exactly align with your own. Also, humans can grow and change through adulthood, so it is even possible for one partner's essential truth to alter to the extent that their very definition of "marriage" may change. Conflict is inevitable no matter how mutual and deep the commitment.

it's a journey and if the partnership is healthy you work to sort out the differences and compromise.
When one of the shared values is the will to invest in the relationship, I believe the odds are on your side

[7Wannabe5]

When one of the shared values is the will to invest in the relationship, I believe the odds are on your side

I must respectfully disagree. Very, very few people get married or enter into similarly committed relationships without the will to invest, and the overall "failure" rate, combining "quite unhappy" and "no longer together" is greater than 50%. However, I do agree that this is definitely a necessary, if not sufficient, shared value towards success.

and compromise.

Over the long run, compromise alone becomes dysfunctional. Everyday small decisions such as "She wants to go to the movies. He doesn't want to go to the movies. So, they compromise and see the sort of movie he prefers." slowly pile up over time, and eventually you are in a dead relationship where nobody is ever quite getting anything they strongly desire. In the words of Hanzi Freinacht, you are no longer able to "fuck like a beast" (broadly defined as taking definitie action in accordance with your core energy) within the relationship, and it is also the case that the terms of the relationship may prevent your ability to "fuck like a beast" in other contexts (for example, take the new job that would be very exciting for you, because would uproot spouse.) Subconscious resentment builds, and, finally, twenty years down the road, you find yourself sitting across from a silent, sullen spouse who has become your most intimate frenemy attempting small talk on a "date night."

[chenda]

Sexual attraction is largely based on immutable factors. Most things in life are unfair, but dating and relationships are one of the most inequitable. Natural selection is by design unfair.

Add: I'd go as far as to say most people get as much sex as - in evolutionary terms - they deserve.

[Frita]

@Seppia and @5W7
Shared values seem like they much be lived through action. To me, many people’s definition of “investing” is more like “trying.” What does one commit to do? What do I expect from myself? What can my spouse/partner expect from me? And vice versus. If divorce is the fallback, why bother marrying?

I believe that some people marry not really knowing who they are; hence, not knowing what they need/want in a relationship. Perhaps they are playing a role of who they think they should be. Some people were not raised by functional people and believe maladaptive behaviors are normal.

To quote Kenny Rogers, “You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em” seems how compromise works. Constantly compromising instead of co-creating workable alternatives sounds like a disaster. Why can’t she go to the movies alone or with someone other than her husband? Some things, like whether or not to have kids, should be all-in from both parties.

I find that when I experience resentment, it is because I have abandoned myself. Being pissed at someone else is a way for me to not take personal responsibility for my part.

[chenda]

To quote Kenny Rogers, “You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em”

For years I genuinely thought he was talking about women not cards.

[Frita]

For years I genuinely thought he was talking about women not cards.

It’s a good metaphor.

[Seppia]

I must respectfully disagree. Very, very few people get married or enter into similarly committed relationships without the will to invest, and the overall "failure" rate, combining "quite unhappy" and "no longer together" is greater than 50%. However, I do agree that this is definitely a necessary, if not sufficient, shared value towards success.

I VERY much disagree
Most people think/pretend they marry for the right reasons, but they focus on stuff that's either irrelevant ("we both like action movies"), temporary ("she's a hot girl"), or both.
This means that while they may enter the relationship with the right attitude, when the reasons fade away, so does the attitude.

Marriages among people who paid attention to the stuff that matters in the long run (what is the view on the importance of family/kids? do we have a comparable attitude towards finances/spending? etc) seem to almost always be long lasting.

A note on sex since it comes up a lot: with DW, we have a better intimate relationship today after many years together than we had at day 1 when we started dating.
Sex is not (only) an animal-like thing (in fact, I pity those who see it that way because they miss so much).
While I am certainly less "physically capable" and "attractive" now at 43 VS when I was 20 (and so is she), we know each other better, we share so much more life and experiences and that more than makes up for the purely physical gap.
When I see sex reduced to nothing but a mechanical or beastly act it makes me want to puke

@Seppia and @5W7
Shared values seem like they much be lived through action. To me, many people’s definition of “investing” is more like “trying.” What does one commit to do? What do I expect from myself? What can my spouse/partner expect from me? And vice versus. If divorce is the fallback, why bother marrying?

100% agree

Constantly compromising instead of co-creating workable alternatives sounds like a disaster.

When I say "compromise" I mean exactly "work to find an alternative that is acceptable to both"

[7Wannabe5]

I find that when I experience resentment, it is because I have abandoned myself. Being pissed at someone else is a way for me to not take personal responsibility for my part.

Absolutely, it's a clear sign of poor boundaries. However, as David Schnarch (author of "Passionate Marriage") might note, and this is kind of subtle, if you are in a modern marriage, the possibility of divorce already does exist as the final frontier of healthy boundary setting, whether or not you are willing to "believe" in it. Simplest evidence of this would be that no matter what you are willing to do or "believing", there is nothing you can do to prevent your partner from choosing to divorce you if/when you take a hard stand on some issue you truly value.

Obviously, pulling out divorce as an ultimatum anytime somebody doesn't remember to take the trash out is highly destructive, and there are some quite strong boundaries that you may enact without resorting to legal divorce. For instance, if you were a mid-20th century Mormon woman whose relationship with God prohibited possibility of divorce, and your husband cheated on you, you could choose to maybe kick him out of the house (if you could support yourself financially), or at least refuse to have sex with him yourself (if you were at least confident that he wasn't likely to resort to marital rape)until he gave up the other woman, but you might also feel compelled to improve some of your own qualities and behaviors.

Constantly compromising instead of co-creating workable alternatives sounds like a disaster. Why can’t she go to the movies alone or with someone other than her husband? Some things, like whether or not to have kids, should be all-in from both parties.

In theory, but it has been my experience, that sometimes the "big things" matter less than the "sum of the small (or not fully realized) things" over time. For overly simplistic instance, in the current climate, marrying somebody who votes differently than you might seem like a deal-breaker, but few people consider whether or not a potential partner enjoys a similar pace of living. Year 3 with the energizer bunny and the tortoise is an exhausted wreck. I'm a very independent person, but in my marriage, I eventually found myself doing things on my own or with other people to the extent that my adult daughter once made the "ouch" comment "What relationship?" when I started a sentence with "In my relationship with your father..." If my ex had been willing for me to also have sex with other people (since he was largely disinclined), we might have been able to carry on for a third decade on limited fairly civilized basis. It might also be the case that if I had married at 42 rather than 22, and had already had a lot of sex with other people, I might have been willing to "settle" for relatively sexless marriage, especially if I also had my kids late in life.

I'd go as far as to say most people get as much sex as - in evolutionary terms - they deserve.

At this juncture, I would say that I've likely gotten more sex than I deserve, but this recognition doesn't seem to stop me from once again inching my way up to the front of the line abd then inquiring, "Please, sir, may I have some more?"

[7Wannabe5]

Sex is not (only) an animal-like thing (in fact, I pity those who see it that way because they miss so much)...When I see sex reduced to nothing but a mechanical or beastly act it makes me want to puke

I don't think that there is a single member of this forum who has only evolved to the level of the purely mechanical or beastly. At its best, exuality is a channel for deep emotions and spirituality, inclusive of the unique emotions that can only be experienced in the company of somebody you have truly known for a long time. However, it is also the case that there are some humans who simply do not know how to fuck. For instance, I recently watched "Good Luck to You, Leo Grande", a movie in which the 60 something character played by Emma Thompson* chooses to hire an extremely attactive young male sex worker after she is widowed from very long term marriage, because she had never achieved an orgasm. She had faked it for 40 years. She described the style of her dearly departed husband as "Every Saturday evening he would come into the room where I was already in bed, neatly take off and put away his clothing, kiss me, briefly touch my breasts, then 5 minutes later, we were done." IOW, being a reasonably affectionate, respectful, otherwise agreeable partner is maybe not good enough either.

*Who bravely reveals her actual 60 something year old body nude. Bravo, Emma!

[Frita]

When I say "compromise" I mean exactly "work to find an alternative that is acceptable to both"

Compromise is one of those multiple meaning words. Sometimes it means each person giving up a little to make things work. Functionally, it can also mean the partner with more power having their way while the more dependent person giving in. Your definition represents emotional maturity on both sides, optimally seeking a solution that is even better. The longer I am married, the better able we can do the latter. This is important because it normalizes this behavior for our son. He can speak up and work out differences. High conflict people and situations, where someone always has to lose, don’t feel good to him. I consider that one of the most important skills we’ve taught him.

@5W7
Bingo, resentment signals a boundary issue. That is why it’s so important to be able to communicate effectively in a timely manner with a solution-oriented focus.

I grew up in a very religious area, about half Morman and half Catholic. I’d argue that either church in the mid-20th century would shame the cheater into compliance or taking the extra-curricular behavior to the next town over. Shoot, that’s how it was in the 1970s and 1980s.

It doesn’t sound like you and your ex were a good fit. Just curious how long you knew each other and whether or not you did marriage counseling. (I got married after knowing my spouse for six months, too soon and it wasn’t a shotgun wedding. But we did have marriage counseling by a guy willing to ask tough questions. It was good to pre-identify some potential issues and realize that we’d most likely be having more/ongoing conversations in the future.)