Marriage? With a sub-section for women marrying down

[SilverElephant]

I'm up in arms because of the talk of women screwing over men. This is a board with both sexes, and we are both likely to get screwed over if we divorce just due to the reason we are all on this board! Life is calculated risks; partnering up is too. As someone said above, choose wisely!

This. I'm sorry if I somehow turned this into a political discussion. One of the side effects of feminism was to bring men and women up against each other and most have been fighting, in various ways, ever since instead of joining forces against those trying to screw us all over. I feel that the gender thing has been extremely well utilized by the media and political caste.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Asymmetrical risk? Please ask a 40+ divorced mom with custody of two young children what her options look like compared to those of her (same age) ex. The asymmetry only gets worse from then on. Her bank balance is no compensation for having to give up on companionship, advice and logistical support unless she is wholly mercenary. I have yet to meet such a person. Among many other reasons, women generally value marriage and monogamy because they are painfully aware of what happens in this society as they age.

I have no quarrel with men who look at their options/contingencies and decide not to marry. But if a man, hand on heart, stands up in front of everyone and promises to be there for her for the rest of her life (and she makes irreversible decisions based on this fact), and then he reneges on the deal, she absolutely should go after him guns blazing.

A

Wait... who is most likely to be the one reneging on the deal? Fully 2/3s (66%) of all divorces are initiated by women.

<LINK> http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/women-i ... 67068.html

That alone is a pretty big indicator of asymmetrical risk. Why do women initiate divorce more than men? Answer: they have less to lose. Just saying.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Oh, and I agree with Triangle and JohnnyH re: marriage being obsolete. But this:

"Seems for all the girls I've gone with, marriage is a deal breaker... They think it's the most colossal disrespect to not eventually marry them."

...is still very much the case. To prove this, I would ask my own girlfriend how she'd feel if I wanted her to be my lifetime partner without ever marrying, but I'm not quite ready to start seeing other people. :p

[lilacorchid]

Wait... who is most likely to be the one reneging on the deal? Fully 2/3s (66%) of all divorces are initiated by women.

<LINK> http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/women-i ... 67068.html

That alone is a pretty big indicator of asymmetrical risk. Why do women initiate divorce more than men? Answer: they have less to lose. Just saying.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... women regularily end up with children and in poverty after a divorce.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases ... 1-144.html

•Women who divorced in the past 12 months reported less household income than recently divorced men. For example, 27 percent of women who divorced in the past 12 months had less than $25,000 in annual household income compared with 17 percent of recently divorced men.

•Similarly, women who divorced in the past 12 months were more likely than recently divorced men to be in poverty (22 percent compared with 11 percent).

[Ego]

Marriage (and non-marriage long-term commitment) is hard. You've got to go into it like Cortez conquering Mexico. Burn the ships. No turning back. Commit 100%.

Pre-nups undermine the marriage before it starts. It is easier to quit when you have a pre-planned escape hatch.

Is marriage obsolete? Fewer people are choosing to do it, that's for sure. But does it have a function beyond religion and the law? I think so.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@lilac:
Not to be overly cynical, but being "in poverty" in the US doesn't necessarily mean they're actually worse off: actually, it means Uncle Sam takes over as Daddy Moneybags instead (probably in addition to the customary alimony payment from the ex-spouse). From the same article:

"Women who divorced in the past 12 months were more likely to receive public assistance than recently divorced men (23 percent and 15 percent)."

How else do you explain the gender disparity in who initiates a divorce, if asymmetrical risk plays no role? Just curious.

[Triangle]

If not marrying her is a deal breaker for a girl, find another one. There's plenty of girls that have deal breakers I can't or don't want to fulfill. Some girls want a guy to party with them 24/7, buy them diamonds and drive a BMW. If you don't do it, it's a deal breaker for them. But it's a deal breaker for me, so no deal.

Would you take up heroin if your girlfriend really wanted that? Of course you wouldn't. How is marriage different? Some things you can compromise on, some you can't.


There are of course ways to protect your assets, but most of them are considered borderline paranoid/sleazy. You can, for example, form an offshore trust that owns things you want to protect. Or like somebody mentioned, form an LLC that owns your car and your house. Then have the LLC allow you to use those things. I haven't tried those things, but I know people who do it.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Toska: Depends. What kind of health insurance you got?

[lilacorchid]

@lilac:
Not to be overly cynical, but being "in poverty" in the US doesn't necessarily mean they're actually worse off: actually, it means Uncle Sam takes over as Daddy Moneybags instead (probably in addition to the customary alimony payment from the ex-spouse). From the same article:

"Women who divorced in the past 12 months were more likely to receive public assistance than recently divorced men (23 percent and 15 percent)."

How else do you explain the gender disparity in who initiates a divorce, if asymmetrical risk plays no role? Just curious.

Google tells me that women are unhappy or being abused and are tired of trying to fix either. Perhaps more men would initiate divorce for these reasons if they weren't so worried about never seeing their kids again?

I'm not saying the system is good. I think there are still a lot of laws that need updating. It wasn't long ago where a women needed permission from her husband to even have a job or was able to have her own bank account. Perhaps some of the laws still reflect this attitude.

@Ego +1. Having no out certainly helps push through big issues to find a solution. (Barring abuse or other deal breakers.)

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Toska:

Okay, but I call the Kevin James role.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@lilac: Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of it is outdated laws. I think some of it is also predatory divorce lawyers, who I assume make more money the larger the settlement/alimony/etc.

Definitely a tragic system for all involved. It just occurred to me that all this discussion of whether the man or women is most affected is missing the real victims: the children themselves, if any.

[lilacorchid]

@lilac: Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of it is outdated laws. I think some of it is also predatory divorce lawyers, who I assume make more money the larger the settlement/alimony/etc.

Definitely a tragic system for all involved. It just occurred to me that all this discussion of whether the man or women is most affected is missing the real victims: the children themselves, if any.

Totally. The kids get screwed. Their standard of living is lower, they are missing a beloved parent, they get shlepped between homes, never mind if their parents behave like animals trying to kill each other.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Triangle: That's all well and good, but the problem with that attitude is that I actually do want a long-term, happy relationship and family someday before I die. Living an ERE lifestyle narrows the selection enough! I guarantee you the subset of available women who 1) also want a long-term relationship without marriage, but 2) want kids and 3) appreciate the ERE lifestyle is infinitely small. I'm guessing the whole handful of them are all represented on this board! On that note, any of you ladies single?

[Chad]

Pre-nups undermine the marriage before it starts. It is easier to quit when you have a pre-planned escape hatch.

I don't care. Actually, if I was thinking about getting married, not that I would need to for me, I would definitely bring up a pre-nup even if they aren't 100% bulletproof. If she got angry, that would probably be the end right there.

Is marriage obsolete? Fewer people are choosing to do it, that's for sure. But does it have a function beyond religion and the law? I think so.

Interesting enough, I do think it has value for some people. In the book Coming Apart the author shows how the declining town has far fewer people married (roughly 30% if I remember correctly) and the professional improving town has far more people married (roughly 80%).

This of course does not mean that decline is caused by not being married, it could just be a by product.

Also, he isn't suggesting that the people in the declining town are living together in permanent relationships just without the official "marriage." He suggests that these women aren't creating serious relationships with the guys they are sleeping with because they are so low quality. They don't have jobs or have low end jobs, and aren't great partners.

The author suggests that over time these men have been conditioned to not care about being a good partner. They can't become a professional or even a skilled laborer, so they devalue themselves and society has devalued them and the jobs they can actually do. He suggests society will not give them credit for working a $10 an hour job and being reliable to their family.

I do think this is part of the problem.

For this group of people I do think marriage is a good idea, as they need the structure, societal rules, and forced responsibility from marriage. Though, other people, probably most on here, don't need the artificial construct of marriage to be committed, reliable, and at least a solid partner.

[jennypenny]

Marriage (and non-marriage long-term commitment) is hard. You've got to go into it like Cortez conquering Mexico. Burn the ships. No turning back. Commit 100%.

Pre-nups undermine the marriage before it starts. It is easier to quit when you have a pre-planned escape hatch.

Is marriage obsolete? Fewer people are choosing to do it, that's for sure. But does it have a function beyond religion and the law? I think so.

+1

It's curious that some of you are hesitant to take advice from people in long-term successful relationships, but seem eager to listen to war stories from divorcees. Don't you think you might learn more from the success stories? I assume you came to this forum because there are people who are financially successful who might teach you something, instead of frequenting forums where people just gripe about not being able to get ahead.

[jacob]

The way I see it is that marriage is some legal/religious/traditional solution to a specific set of problems. Now, some of these problems may no longer be around; also marriage might not be the solution to your particular problem. There may be other solutions.

Maybe [the generic] you should see relationships in terms of investments. Do you want a solid blue chip? Growth stock? High yielder? Do you want to be diversified? Do you want to chase hot start-ups? Are you a buy & holder or a trader? How do you feel about giving up (selling) optionality? Is marriage about selling an option on your net worth in exchange for regular sex? Is there something about the "marriage-portfolio" that makes it fragile? Anti-fragile? What about moral hazard? Prisoner's dilemma? Agency problems? A 50% draw down? And so on ...

The purpose of this exercise is to see the multiple dimensions to the problem.

A lot of people here like the PP for its resilience towards multiple unknown regimes. You don't know what the market throw at you. Do you approach partners the same way choosing one that will work out whether you end up quadriplegic following a freak centrifuge accident (don't ask) or manage your virility into your 80s (again, don't ask); or are you chasing junior gold miners? Ha!

[Spartan_Warrior]

LOL Jacob. That post is amusing but true. That's more what I meant when I referred to marriage upthread as an "investment"--not in the sense that it's solely about profit, but that there are many aspects to consider, risk being one of them.

[Triangle]

So what's the PP of relationships? I'm guessing you need at least four partners?

[lilacorchid]

@Triangle - Probably. But only one of those gets to be romantic... the others are family or friends you need in your life to diversify the relationships, lol

[Ego]

So what's the PP of relationships? I'm guessing you need at least four partners?

Better, worse, richer, poorer, sickness, health. Till death.

Two people spreading the myriad of risks and responsibilities between them. Far more antifragile than every man for himself.