Marriage? With a sub-section for women marrying down

[JohnnyH]

Perhaps as to demonstrate her commitment to the marriage (and as good will she's not interested in taking my assets), she mortgages our house in her name only beforehand?

With that, and me being retired before we're married (established pre-marriage assets) could my feet really be held to the fire if there was a divorce?

... I guess that would be the ultimate test of gender biased court system; if the stay at home Dad would be cleaned out and forced to work to pay the higher income, working female.

[jennypenny]

Accumulated wealth is usually fair game in a divorce.

Chose wisely. Or marry a conservative Catholic who doesn't believe in divorce

[Spartan_Warrior]

Accumulated wealth is usually fair game in a divorce.

Hah, it's certainly game, whether it's "fair" or not is the question. If I'm busting my ass in a high-pay, high-stress job, contributing, say, 90% to the accumulated assets, while my wife essentially has fun all day in a low-pay, low-stress job and contributes 10%, how on Earth is it "fair" that she gets half of that?

Aren't you one of those righties on the board who believes that high income folks shouldn't be subsidizing those with lower incomes?

Chose wisely. Or marry a conservative Catholic who doesn't believe in divorce

Hah! Believe it or not, this is part of my strategy... I would add that I look for women who are comfortable with relatively traditional gender roles. Ironically, of course, this kind of woman is at even greater risk for not contributing (financially) as much as would be taken in a potential divorce (compared to a more independent, working woman). Kind of a conundrum. Like I said, my main strategy is to approach marriage very... very... cautiously.

[JohnnyH]

I'm afraid of marrying a woman my own age because I plan on being in fantastic shape forever. Men can maintain muscularity indefinitely, but feminine beauty is more elusive, rare/valuable ... I feel bad about saying this, but I'm worried I'll lose physical attraction at 50 and it will ruin the marriage.

Feel like a monster for typing that... But hey, it is the internet! Someone please tell me I am way off on this and why.

[Avni1]

JohnnyH,
I'm curious, what is the age range for women being beautiful (to you)? I'm not being snarky, just sincerely curious.

FWIW - anecdotally, the mid-thirties and over women I know, are (by FAR) more into eating healthy and exercising than their male peers. I've always wondered why/how they ended with their pot-bellied, spectator sport loving, salad abhoring, inarticulate husbands. (My theory is middle-aged masculine culture promotes this model but that is a different discussion).

Avni

[JohnnyH]

Yes, I see a lot of that as well. I also see the 130 lb chain smoking, alcoholic husband that weighs half of what his wife does.

But that's the thing, there is no range and the correlation is far from perfect. My girlfriend has a hot 50 y/o aunt. Meanwhile, her 30 y/o sister has let herself go... I could commit if it went one way, and afraid to because it could go the other.

Maybe it's because I'm 30, but it's hard to imagine being sexual with a 60 year old woman. And based on my father, I know I'm going to still have the urge then and later. This is a taboo, I feel a little guilty for discussing it.
I'm betting this will change as I age and mature (with someone who takes care of themselves). But I'm not positive, so I punish myself not allowing anything serious until I'm old enough to get serious with a seriously younger girl.

[lilacorchid]

I'm afraid of marrying a woman my own age because I plan on being in fantastic shape forever. Men can maintain muscularity indefinitely, but feminine beauty is more elusive, rare/valuable ... I feel bad about saying this, but I'm worried I'll lose physical attraction at 50 and it will ruin the marriage.

Feel like a monster for typing that... But hey, it is the internet! Someone please tell me I am way off on this and why.

Well, first of all, what you plan and what happens can be totally different. Illness, freak accident, just not being as in to fitness as you thought... If you plan on having children with a woman, be prepared that her body will change. The media makes it look like it's easy or even *possible* to return to what you looked like before you had a kid unless you have major surgery.

If there are no kids, shared experiences can make someone attractive too! There are also bonuses to being with someone you know likes you for you, and not because they don't have to work if they close their eyes and think of England three times a week because you are an old man with money!

In the end, no one said you have to get married!

FTR: I find this whole thread to be really odd. Perhaps I hang out with weirdos, but I don't have one girlfriend who married for money or tried to rip off her husband in their divorce. Is there something I'm missing? Can't you guys get a prenup in the US and render all this null?

[SilverElephant]

FTR: I find this whole thread to be really odd. Perhaps I hang out with weirdos, but I don't have one girlfriend who married for money or tried to rip off her husband in their divorce. Is there something I'm missing? Can't you guys get a prenup in the US and render all this null?

There have been enough instances of prenups being declared null and void in court to make them essentially worthless.

Well, your girlfriends might not have married rich guys (the common definition of "marrying for money"), but let the husbands quit their job and declare that they now want to take care of the kids and that the wife should now be the main breadwinner, then sit back and enjoy the show. Some will prevail, but I'd bet anything you will be very surprised at some people... have you seen American Beauty? Similar. The wife is a realtor but complains when she's the sole breadwinner because the husband quit his boring-ass soul-sucking job. Imagine a man complaining that he's now the sole breadwinner in a family. I would venture that this is a not-so-subtle-but-somehow-overlooked form of "marrying for money".

You just have to look in the right forums to stumble across really, really bitter men who had their whole existence ripped from them by the person they loved for years.

All that said; I'm not saying that women are bad or that men are better, just from the point of view of a guy (i.e. mine) it's better to be safe than sorry in these times.

[jennypenny]

@johnnyh--Aren't you worried that if you marry a younger spouse, she might come to the same conclusion when you're 50? Most of my female friends think guys are the ones who don't age well.

You may find this hard to believe at your age, but a person's sex life usually improves during middle age. There comes a point where talent and thoroughness mean more than looks. Doesn't mean you won't find younger people better looking, it just means you won't find good looking (by itself) satisfying anymore.

@lilac--Divorce laws are different in different states and pre-nups don't always hold up. Sadly, divorce has also become somewhat of a spectator sport. I've witnessed plenty here in Stepford. They get ugly, even if they don't start out that way. The guy's friends will jump in and encourage him to hide everything he can, and the woman's friends will jump in and encourage her to get all she can. Nasty business.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Is there something I'm missing? Can't you guys get a prenup in the US and render all this null?

Short answer: No. A pre-nup can be thrown out for all sorts of reasons, and the authority of such an agreement varies from state to state.

<LINK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenuptial ... ted_States

As for the permanence of post-pregnancy weight gain, I definitely do not buy the defeatist premise that it's "not possible" to return to your previous body weight and fitness. Women should only be gaining about 25 pounds during pregnancy, 8 of which is coming out at delivery. A woman who can't lose the weight she gained during pregnancy probably gained too much.

<LINK> http://www.choosemyplate.gov/pregnancy- ... _gain.aspx

[lilacorchid]

@SilverElephant - Most of my friends (myself included) are already the breadwinners. I made buckets more than my husband, and I brought a house into our marriage. He brought all his wordly goods in the back of a 25 year old Tercel, not a penny to his name. My one friend makes 2x more than her husband, and my other friend refuses to marry her boyfriend until he gets his debt under control. And I don't have to imagine a man complaining about being the breadwinner, I lived it while I was on mat leave. "Newsflash!" I said to him, "I hate it too!" And that's why we save money and do side work, but I digress.

I find it rather sickening when my husband gets the "high-five" from older male relatives because he will get my sweet gov't pension if we get divorced. I also find that generation is the one who poo-poos me for working and putting our kid in daycare, even though it's a great arrangment for our family. Anyway, I'm the one worrying about getting screwed financially if we get divorced.

I think you should stay off those forums full of angry divorced people. It's just normalizing a bunch of terrible experiences for you. No one logs on the internet to tell people how average or painless, or even good an experience was!

@jennypenny - That is just sad. I suppose I'm getting to the age where I'm going to start seeing my friends getting divorced and we will see if that holds true for my friends.

[jennypenny]

@JohnnyH--When I reread my question, I realized it sounded snarky and I didn't mean it that way. It was an honest question. You might marry someone who thinks like my friends.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@lilacorchid: Where do you live? Just curious.

[Triangle]

Of course the 20yo chic will get bored with him when he's 50 and she's 30. But then SHE can go out and find a young stud.

Marriage in its current form seems so absurd to me. It guarantees that both partners will become unhappy soon. Why limit yourself to one partner? You might still "love" your 60yo wife when you're 60, but not like when she was 20. Why give up that part about her just because you crave young chicks? Get a little girlfriend on the side, or go to a hooker to blow off some steam in bed. Then go home to your wife. If she feels that way, she can go find a young boyfriend on the side.

Marriage breeds jealousy.

At the same time, why tie your financials together like that? Have a party, be my guest. But what makes you think that another person will always have the exact spending habits you want them to have?

The idea of singular "love" being equal to sexual attraction, financial symbiosis, bringing up children together, being intellectual inspirations for each other and so on, is very western and very new. Until maybe 100 years ago, people got married solely for utilitarian reasons. Dowry, anyone? Or growing the family's influence by marrying someone from another influential family. And then until the 70s, women couldn't get good jobs easily and fewer rights. My grandma told me stories about not being able to purchase a dishwasher on her own, without the signature of her husband.

So this whole "love-marriage" thing is new and mostly exists in Hollywood and romantic novels. Many cultures in the world have very different concepts. For example, in Japan it is very common to have a mistress for sex, and a wife as the partner in your household. Why give up one because your partner can't fulfill ALL your desires? Separation of concerns is a great idea.



Another thing: How old are you guys who know women that just want to have a hobby-job? I'm late 20s, and I know women in my profession who're making a shitload, and it's not a hobby for them. Not sure if they make more than I do, but some of them I'm pretty sure. In my family, nobody talks about my sisters getting married and being a stay at home mom. Maybe it's because both my grandmas and my mom always worked full time jobs their entire lives, but my sisters were brought up to be financially independent and educated and have good jobs, just like I was.

So this might be a generational thing. Or it's a cultural thing and differs between families? But I've never known a single woman who was planning on being a stay at home wife that marries a rich guy.



Third thought: I dig women richer than me. To me, making money is a sign of success, intelligence and character. I met a biologist once who was ~10 years older than me, made 300-400k, owned a very large house and was stunningly hot. Also spoke 3 languages, fluent. I was intimidated - but also very attracted. I can see how if your ego is closely tied to making a lot of money, then you could feel intimidated and not want to be with such a woman.

[lilacorchid]

Is there something I'm missing? Can't you guys get a prenup in the US and render all this null?

Short answer: No. A pre-nup can be thrown out for all sorts of reasons, and the authority of such an agreement varies from state to state.

<LINK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenuptial ... ted_States

Well then. That is too bad. So there is nothing either party can do to protect their assets?

As for the permanence of post-pregnancy weight gain, I definitely do not buy the defeatist premise that it's "not possible" to return to your previous body weight and fitness. Women should only be gaining about 25 pounds during pregnancy, 8 of which is coming out at delivery. A woman who can't lose the weight she gained during pregnancy probably gained too much.

<LINK> http://www.choosemyplate.gov/pregnancy- ... _gain.aspx

Google "diastasis recti" and tell me how a person is supposed to diet or exercise that away. My OB and doctor both told me that is just happens with some women. I'm back to my pre-pregnancy weight and fitness and my abs are still blown out and I still have stretchmarks. And they will still be blown out at 50 with stretch marks.

It's not defeatist, it's nature. Genetics and age also play in to things. Pregnancy basically does a fun-house mirror on a woman's body. Media does a piss-poor job of representing it, just like so many other things.

EDIT: I live in Canada.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Fair enough. I won't attempt to argue that diastasis recti can be dieted or exercised away (although, according to wikipedia, there are some exercises that can mitigate it). But IMO some separation of the abdominal muscles and stretch marks are fairly minor (aesthetically) if you returned to your general fitness level. Definitely not the same as the woman who gains 50 pounds and then "just can't lose it".

I just don't view pregnancy as a valid excuse for a woman to let herself go (although it's often used as such). Obviously complications can occur.

As far as asset protection in the U.S., what I'm gathering is that the only valid way of protecting an asset is to earn it before you get married. And I doubt even that is full-proof.

[JohnnyH]

I pretty much agree with Triangle, marriage is an obsolete concept; an irrelevant religious sacrament wholesale taken over by government that has become trite, bizarre, commercialized, so on.

"You need to be married for your kids." Why, is this is Dickensian London?... Shouldn't having 2 parents be enough? As I kid I could have cared less what my parents' standing with the IRS was. I remember asking my Mom about her 3 names on a document around the age of 5, and that was the first, and likely last, time I cared about this allegedly important issue.

In the end, no one said you have to get married!

FTR: I find this whole thread to be really odd. Perhaps I hang out with weirdos, but I don't have one girlfriend who married for money or tried to rip off her husband in their divorce. Is there something I'm missing? Can't you guys get a prenup in the US and render all this null?

Seems for all the girls I've gone with, marriage is a deal breaker... They think it's the most colossal disrespect to not eventually marry them.

No one goes into marriage expecting failure, but we're all realists here looking to protect ourselves. People do 180s, I've seen it and it's frightening... Energetic, agile people become stones. Positive people become poisonous... Like SW said, go look on an investment board, there are usually quite a few guys who will recount Greek tragedies if you mention marriage. I'm sure plenty of stories from the female perspective as well.

@johnnyh--Aren't you worried that if you marry a younger spouse, she might come to the same conclusion when you're 50? Most of my female friends think guys are the ones who don't age well.

You may find this hard to believe at your age, but a person's sex life usually improves during middle age. There comes a point where talent and thoroughness mean more than looks. Doesn't mean you won't find younger people better looking, it just means you won't find good looking (by itself) satisfying anymore.

I'm worried about that too (pattern? )! And I know you're right about sex getting better... The sex I had when I was a teenager was, lol, relatively terrible despite looking like classical statues... I've never understood the guys that wanted 1 night stands and nothing else. Sex with strangers (in my mid range number of trials) is usually bad. Sex with a friend of years gets better.... OTOH, if your partner lets themselves go, the sex basically stops and people get bitter. I experienced that for a multi-year relationship, and I'm terrified of living that for decades. Again, more more horror stories and circumstantial evidence, once the woman secures the man in contract they can give up on everything because of the asymmetrical risk.

[Avni1]

Asymmetrical risk? Please ask a 40+ divorced mom with custody of two young children what her options look like compared to those of her (same age) ex. The asymmetry only gets worse from then on. Her bank balance is no compensation for having to give up on companionship, advice and logistical support unless she is wholly mercenary. I have yet to meet such a person. Among many other reasons, women generally value marriage and monogamy because they are painfully aware of what happens in this society as they age.

I have no quarrel with men who look at their options/contingencies and decide not to marry. But if a man, hand on heart, stands up in front of everyone and promises to be there for her for the rest of her life (and she makes irreversible decisions based on this fact), and then he reneges on the deal, she absolutely should go after him guns blazing.

A

[lilacorchid]

@JohnnyH - I was the marrying type. It worked for us, but I do have friends who aren't married and have everything set up the same as us but don't have the paper. Common-law is, in some provinces, the same as being married as far as laws go when splitting up and if my memory serves, there are laws coming into place in others. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but only people over 50 seem to freak out about us young people living together and perhaps never having a wedding.

@avni1 - I have to disagree. If two people break up and have children, that is just one more reason to try to resolve things without it getting messy. Absolutely fight for the benefits for the children, but don't go after him just F him up because he hurt your feelings.
---

I'm up in arms because of the talk of women screwing over men. This is a board with both sexes, and we are both likely to get screwed over if we divorce just due to the reason we are all on this board! Life is calculated risks; partnering up is too. As someone said above, choose wisely!

[SilverElephant]

@lilacorchid

As I said in an earlier posting, the nature of this forum alone means we'll get unusual people, so I'm not too surprised to see a "breadwinner" woman. Forgive me if I offended you or your friends; that was not my intention, I was playing by statistics. But then you can relate to how I feel with "everyone's" attempt to push me into that role.

As for those ominous "forums", I'm aware that only the bitter log on to describe their experience, but as I pointed out in my previous post, I just like to know what the risks are and I'd much rather be mainly aware of the horrible possibilities than get blindsided. As JohnnyH pointed out, all of us are here because we're realists trying to protect ourselves one way or another.