I'm reading over something J_ wrote, but I'm struggling with one point. What do we owe society? I think if you take, you should also give. But what if you're almost completely independent? (I'm presuming that's the goal of most people here.) J_ touched on it again in the capitalism thread, hoping that once people are ERE they would use their skills and intellect to better humanity.
What do we owe to society? the planet? other people in our lives? (I think I'm struggling to look at this objectively because of my faith. "To whom much is given, much is required")
What do we owe society?
-
lilacorchid
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:20 pm
- Location: Canada
I personally don't believe we owe the planet anything nor does it think that as I don't believe the planet is alive in that way. And at this point of existence, I don't think we can blow the Earth up - though someone correct me if I'm wrong - so regardless of what we do, it will still continue to spin around the sun. If you are talking what do we owe the rest of the inhabitants of the planet, well that's a little more complex.
I think if you are completely, 100% independent, then you probably don't have much of a social contract with anyone. That being said, it's pretty hard to be that way. Care to squat on isolated land with no contact with humanity? Probably not. Even those communities who are extremely self sufficient still go to others for goods and/or services that they have trouble producing or others make better. They also need to make something that others outside their community find of use to trade for those goods. And there is the social contract, even if it could be a bit selfish: I will be nice to you because you have something I need.
If you use roads, hospitals, libraries, other conveniences of society, etc, then I think you have to give back to society in some way, be it money, time, objects, etc.
As for the other people in our lives, I think we owe them kindness and our help, but help being a very, very general term.
I think if you are completely, 100% independent, then you probably don't have much of a social contract with anyone. That being said, it's pretty hard to be that way. Care to squat on isolated land with no contact with humanity? Probably not. Even those communities who are extremely self sufficient still go to others for goods and/or services that they have trouble producing or others make better. They also need to make something that others outside their community find of use to trade for those goods. And there is the social contract, even if it could be a bit selfish: I will be nice to you because you have something I need.
If you use roads, hospitals, libraries, other conveniences of society, etc, then I think you have to give back to society in some way, be it money, time, objects, etc.
As for the other people in our lives, I think we owe them kindness and our help, but help being a very, very general term.
In a pure resource (more than just hard resources like coal, iron, etc. would include labor, etc.) perspective I do think we should give back what we take. At the very least when we are gone there should at least be a big zero beside our name and if you value your fellow human then a + beside your name would be a goal. Though, I don't think the + should be required. A zero is fine. You didn't hurt anyone resource wise, which should be the baseline goal. Obviously, it would be cooler to have done some good.
We are inextricably bound together so in that respect we have a duty to one another.
Trouble is, more often than not we confuse short term stemming of discomfort as compassion. This discomfort-stemming has the unintended consequence of perpetuating actual suffering. The discomfort itself is the thing that would have prompted change.
Trouble is, more often than not we confuse short term stemming of discomfort as compassion. This discomfort-stemming has the unintended consequence of perpetuating actual suffering. The discomfort itself is the thing that would have prompted change.
This question indeed falls into the category it was placed wrt "eternal disagreements" The range of "society" varies from the planet or a continent to something as small as the group of us taking part in this forum.
Religion aside, Conversations like this make me ask myself, "Does the fact that I have helped thousands of people through surgeries and maybe saved a few lives along the way let me off the hook for the rest of my life?" And then I quickly answer my own question with a "No."
I try and reduce a question like this to pure and simple form to deduct an answer.
For me, if you are interacting in a group working towards interests that are not solely your own, you are contributing to society. I think each one of us occasionally owes that interaction to "society."
Religion aside, Conversations like this make me ask myself, "Does the fact that I have helped thousands of people through surgeries and maybe saved a few lives along the way let me off the hook for the rest of my life?" And then I quickly answer my own question with a "No."
I try and reduce a question like this to pure and simple form to deduct an answer.
For me, if you are interacting in a group working towards interests that are not solely your own, you are contributing to society. I think each one of us occasionally owes that interaction to "society."
-
secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
@jennypenny,
Squaring faith with freedom and independence is not trivial. I’ve thought about it a lot, and offer a couple of points that might help.
There is a profound difference between a gift and a debt, similar to the difference between light and dark, freedom and bondage. I hold tightly to this distinction because the whole world is furiously determined to transmute the former into the latter.
I would not ask what I owe; I pay my way (including some obscene taxes) and don’t accept unsolicited debts. The question is what to give (and when, for what purpose and to whom). A well-made gift satisfies in a way that nothing else can; I wouldn’t allow anyone to diminish the joy of it by trying to turn it into an obligation.
I think this is consonant with the passage you mentioned, if seen as more parent to child giving rather than some kind of boundless societal enslavement. The more good things you give to a child, the more you expect, as in a strong, healthy, productive adult who is a good person—honest, faithful and charitable. It’s not to hook the child into some perpetual cosmic debt-slavery (though my own parents might have jokingly-I-hope demurred at this
Squaring faith with freedom and independence is not trivial. I’ve thought about it a lot, and offer a couple of points that might help.
There is a profound difference between a gift and a debt, similar to the difference between light and dark, freedom and bondage. I hold tightly to this distinction because the whole world is furiously determined to transmute the former into the latter.
I would not ask what I owe; I pay my way (including some obscene taxes) and don’t accept unsolicited debts. The question is what to give (and when, for what purpose and to whom). A well-made gift satisfies in a way that nothing else can; I wouldn’t allow anyone to diminish the joy of it by trying to turn it into an obligation.
I think this is consonant with the passage you mentioned, if seen as more parent to child giving rather than some kind of boundless societal enslavement. The more good things you give to a child, the more you expect, as in a strong, healthy, productive adult who is a good person—honest, faithful and charitable. It’s not to hook the child into some perpetual cosmic debt-slavery (though my own parents might have jokingly-I-hope demurred at this
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
I guess you could look at this like a goal and a focus....to give more than you receive. Makes good psychological sense. Alot wiser than to take more than you give thats for sure.
But i am not sure as humans and scoieties we can be too hung up on something that is so unquantifiable...
The problem with focusing on results (doing good) is that it can be preachy and at the end of the day you cannot be sure if the sum of your actions are infact doing good or not. You gonna annoy someone along the way no matter what. The act of trying to do good can make things worse.
christian missionaries - good or bad?
Nuclear energy - good or bad?
Doing everything for your children - good or bad?
People living to 100 - good or bad?
the USA - as the only world superpower see's itself for a long time as a country with a duty to save the planet from communism, religious fundamentalism etc etc...despite the so much good....this focus has in many ways been problematic.
Or the NGO that helped an african village with bore water only to leave and 6 months later the village was massacred by a waring tribe wanting that water...
I would reckon that if the focus of your life is on respect, simplicty, dignity then the results (doing more harm than good) will follow. So this idea of geing 'in the positive' at the end of life should imo not be the focus of anything... but more a side product of living well.
But i am not sure as humans and scoieties we can be too hung up on something that is so unquantifiable...
The problem with focusing on results (doing good) is that it can be preachy and at the end of the day you cannot be sure if the sum of your actions are infact doing good or not. You gonna annoy someone along the way no matter what. The act of trying to do good can make things worse.
christian missionaries - good or bad?
Nuclear energy - good or bad?
Doing everything for your children - good or bad?
People living to 100 - good or bad?
the USA - as the only world superpower see's itself for a long time as a country with a duty to save the planet from communism, religious fundamentalism etc etc...despite the so much good....this focus has in many ways been problematic.
Or the NGO that helped an african village with bore water only to leave and 6 months later the village was massacred by a waring tribe wanting that water...
I would reckon that if the focus of your life is on respect, simplicty, dignity then the results (doing more harm than good) will follow. So this idea of geing 'in the positive' at the end of life should imo not be the focus of anything... but more a side product of living well.
-
irukandjisting
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:58 pm
Ive got a couple of favourites where I work - 'mad as cut snakes' and probably will not get much better than they are now - and they can turn violent and nasty as quick as the wrong trigger word or suggestion is given - labile as
When they see me come in the door, and not just me I know, but anyway, - they call out to me, and I go and give them a hug or ask em how they are doing - just something, to break up the boredom day in and day out for them, make them feel something again, if just for a few moments
They have no one - no one that still cares - sure there are daughters and mothers and fathers, outside, and psychiatrists, inside, but they are just one of the many - understandably, 'outside' people can only take so much 24 hours a day 7 days a week
When they see me come in the door, and not just me I know, but anyway, - they call out to me, and I go and give them a hug or ask em how they are doing - just something, to break up the boredom day in and day out for them, make them feel something again, if just for a few moments
They have no one - no one that still cares - sure there are daughters and mothers and fathers, outside, and psychiatrists, inside, but they are just one of the many - understandably, 'outside' people can only take so much 24 hours a day 7 days a week
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@irukandjisting
That is a wonderful example of treating people with dignity and probably making a significant difference....and it didnt take too much forethought or energy...
Probably doing as much cosmic good as planting 100 trees or spening 1 week in a bangladeshi village (or any other higher profile high status helping scenarios)
That is a wonderful example of treating people with dignity and probably making a significant difference....and it didnt take too much forethought or energy...
Probably doing as much cosmic good as planting 100 trees or spening 1 week in a bangladeshi village (or any other higher profile high status helping scenarios)
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 17136
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
Well ... society is an abstract concept, so I think the answer is going to be biased towards whatever one thinks society should be like. Maybe we owe it to society not to eat hotdogs on Thursdays?
One could also refuse to consider idealizing abstract concepts and simply consider society to be a collection of individuals, that is, responsibility stops with the person, not with the abstract concept. In that case, the golden rule comes to mind. Since the golden rule is to treat other people as you yourself would like to be treated, I'd prefer not to get hassled, maimed, threatened, or otherwise put upon.
Recall that humans are generally tribal, short-sighted, and narrow-minded albeit with many individual exceptions. So at best I see society as a bad idea... present company excluded.
To some extent, for quite a while, I saw it as my personal mission to save individuals from society. Then society caught on because I got too enthusiastic. So now I keep a low(er) profile.
One could also refuse to consider idealizing abstract concepts and simply consider society to be a collection of individuals, that is, responsibility stops with the person, not with the abstract concept. In that case, the golden rule comes to mind. Since the golden rule is to treat other people as you yourself would like to be treated, I'd prefer not to get hassled, maimed, threatened, or otherwise put upon.
Recall that humans are generally tribal, short-sighted, and narrow-minded albeit with many individual exceptions. So at best I see society as a bad idea... present company excluded.
To some extent, for quite a while, I saw it as my personal mission to save individuals from society. Then society caught on because I got too enthusiastic. So now I keep a low(er) profile.
You've hit upon a point. The question just begs more defining, as is what is a "society" and what is the basis for owing it something?
You could define society as the world at large, the country you live in, your family, your church, your neighborhood, your internet friends, or any number of other things.
As a legal matter, you certainly owe your sovereign its taxes and perhaps some kind of service, military or otherwise. You may also be required to care for offspring and honor agreements. That's probably not what you are asking, but my point it that the answer depends more on the definition of the terms than on any thought process or philosophy.
I think the better question is how much do you want to be involved in whatever society you are considering (or maybe you are stuck with). You may owe that society in proportion to whatever you obtain from it. There's still no free lunch.
You could define society as the world at large, the country you live in, your family, your church, your neighborhood, your internet friends, or any number of other things.
As a legal matter, you certainly owe your sovereign its taxes and perhaps some kind of service, military or otherwise. You may also be required to care for offspring and honor agreements. That's probably not what you are asking, but my point it that the answer depends more on the definition of the terms than on any thought process or philosophy.
I think the better question is how much do you want to be involved in whatever society you are considering (or maybe you are stuck with). You may owe that society in proportion to whatever you obtain from it. There's still no free lunch.
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Thanks for the replies. I have to admit, I'm a little surprised at the responses. There is so much talk on the forum about class issues, affordable healthcare, and unfair bailouts, I expected more people to say that we were obligated to share our talents and good fortune with others less fortunate (beyond just giving back what we take).
My libertarian viewpoint also seems different from other people's. I would rather try and fix social and/or local problems myself instead of giving the government money and hope they figure it out. I wonder if we had better social institutions would we need such a big government?
My libertarian viewpoint also seems different from other people's. I would rather try and fix social and/or local problems myself instead of giving the government money and hope they figure it out. I wonder if we had better social institutions would we need such a big government?
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6910
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
@Jacob, I think our main talent is problem solving. We don't pay other people to think for us, fix things for us, entertain us, feed us, clean for us, build things for us, or even teach us most of the time. Having people watch how we approach and solve problems in an efficient, self-reliant way (and in a neutral setting) might get people to think more like us.*
Of course, this involves a lot of personal interaction which is a problem for me. I was amazed at what I was able to accomplish with the Bloomberg/formula thing mainly through phone calls and emails, but I suspect most problems would require more direct involvement.
*I'm making a big assumption here that the way we do things is the best way.
Of course, this involves a lot of personal interaction which is a problem for me. I was amazed at what I was able to accomplish with the Bloomberg/formula thing mainly through phone calls and emails, but I suspect most problems would require more direct involvement.
*I'm making a big assumption here that the way we do things is the best way.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@jennypenny
thanks yours. I think you are making some assumptions and inferences that arent necessarily there.
From my perspective all i am saying is that the focus shouldnt be on this intanjibe (in my eyes) idea of giving more than you take. For me its about how you live first and then the rest falls into place.
So I value the way people interact with eachother first....
BUT - that doesnt mean within this framework - if you have time and the inclination you cannot do more practical things to help.
Eg - i was a mentor for the big brother big sister foundation for for a few years. Spent 4 hours per week hanging out with my 'little brother'....i wanted to do some cummunity service and found the experience rewarding and beneifical hopefully for myself, my little mate and the the community. I also have sponsored shildren in africa for 23 years via 'world vision australia'....
Both fairly big ticket items in the give more than you take stakes. There are more examples i could cite.
BUT i think in the scheme of things no bigger and probably less important than the way i interact with life on a day to day basis. Whats the point spending tens of thousands on charity (or thithing or whatever) if there is comsic leakage (yes i am getting airy fairy here) in other aspects of life.
So i see doing 'service' as part of a bigger picture. The worry is when it becomes 'my service is greater than your service' scenario. Like 'my god is better than your god"...both manifestations of the ego. Like both mother inlaws falling over themselves to help at a wedding it becomes more about them than their childrens wedding.
thanks yours. I think you are making some assumptions and inferences that arent necessarily there.
From my perspective all i am saying is that the focus shouldnt be on this intanjibe (in my eyes) idea of giving more than you take. For me its about how you live first and then the rest falls into place.
So I value the way people interact with eachother first....
BUT - that doesnt mean within this framework - if you have time and the inclination you cannot do more practical things to help.
Eg - i was a mentor for the big brother big sister foundation for for a few years. Spent 4 hours per week hanging out with my 'little brother'....i wanted to do some cummunity service and found the experience rewarding and beneifical hopefully for myself, my little mate and the the community. I also have sponsored shildren in africa for 23 years via 'world vision australia'....
Both fairly big ticket items in the give more than you take stakes. There are more examples i could cite.
BUT i think in the scheme of things no bigger and probably less important than the way i interact with life on a day to day basis. Whats the point spending tens of thousands on charity (or thithing or whatever) if there is comsic leakage (yes i am getting airy fairy here) in other aspects of life.
So i see doing 'service' as part of a bigger picture. The worry is when it becomes 'my service is greater than your service' scenario. Like 'my god is better than your god"...both manifestations of the ego. Like both mother inlaws falling over themselves to help at a wedding it becomes more about them than their childrens wedding.
"Since the golden rule is to treat other people as you yourself would like to be treated, I'd prefer not to get hassled, maimed, threatened, or otherwise put upon."
When calculating the debt to society, negatives are not counted. Crime, polution, prison, disease, wars, involuntary servitude, taxes, fines; no one wants those back.
"Our main talent is avoiding dumb behavior. "
Oh. Shoot.
When calculating the debt to society, negatives are not counted. Crime, polution, prison, disease, wars, involuntary servitude, taxes, fines; no one wants those back.
"Our main talent is avoiding dumb behavior. "
Oh. Shoot.