The Education of Axel Heyst

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jacob
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

@bsog - Yes, this explains much of these "eternal disagreements". To add a 5th premise, which is quite similar to your 4th:

5) Individuals have different neurochemistry set points for their brains' reward circuits. This relates more to what people would want and not want to do [because they find it rewarding] than what they technically could learn or in the vernacular "do to grow their skills".
5b) It could be said that the mind lives in the environment of the brain and (4) applies here as well to some degree because of neuroplasticity. It will however take very many years of practicing [something one does not want to do if the reward is not there] to change the neuronal pathways that is the brain's environment.

Example for E/I scale (dopamine vs acetylcholine): The average American reads 0.8 books per year. It's even less than that because some 95% of the books are read by 5% of the people. Reading is highly Pareto. This is because most people fall in the middle of their respective dopamine and acetylcholine reward circuits and because there are alternatives to reading in their form of conversation or watching TV or TikTok. Reading requires a trained imagination or a trained ability to understand abstract concepts that is beyond what is immediately experienced---the immediate experience is but words on a page, so the the frontal cortex needs to be working in order to get more out of reading than just looking at sequential words. The experience of reading is something that happens in the frontal cortex and so it is only appreciated if activating the acetylcholine network is experienced as rewarding. If it is, that person will want to read more. If it isn't then reading becomes a chore. It is likely that such a person would only read because they have to, e.g. assigned homework in school or reports at the job.

From the perspective of the average person, reading is an 'extreme environment'. The world is not full of bookstores or libraries. We do not have a bookstore on every street like we have a bar or a cafe.

Lets flip that around. An extreme introvert (like myself, I'm somewhere in the 95%+ percentile) will likely have a very rewarding acetylcholine network but a rather non-rewarding dopamine network. When extroverts engage with others, their dopamine network will constantly reward them, whereas my dopamine network will not reward me for the conversation. Since people generally talk about things that don't require imagination or abstraction ("So how was your day today?") I don't get rewarded by my acetylcholine network either. As such, for me, conversation with others becomes a chore. I'll do the minimum I have to do to get the job done, but I'll never practice it well enough to become adept at it.

"Personal growth/challenge" are often presented as one-dimensional unequivocal goods, but it's more nuanced than that. It's pertinent to ask what kind of growth and what's the cost. In the above, you want to ask yourself whether you want to prioritize "growing" your reading-muscles or "growing" your conversational-muscles. It's clear that different people will be rewarded differently depending on what choice they make. Also see, https://paulgraham.com/nerds.html in which Graham explains "why nerds don't just figure out how to become more popular if they're so smart. Answer: They'd rather focus on becoming [even] smarter instead (and that's why they so smart in the first place)).

The value of a good follows an s-curve. It would be debilitating not to be able to read at all and so even if someone does not find the process rewarding, it would be best if they practiced enough. As such the average person practices enough to be able to read at a 6th grade level, but only 10% of people can easily read college level books outside their field of training. Likewise, it would be debilitating to be so socially stunted as to not be able to participate in a meeting or ask for directions. However, it may not be worth it to practice conversation to the point of being able to strike up a conversation with any stranger one comes across. That's maybe for the top 10% as well.

Lets consider the difference between dopamine and serotonin. Dopamine is the (immediate) fast-reward circuit. If yours is responsive, you enjoy exploring situations with a lot of stimuli, adapting to new situations and people. If yours is not responsive, all that stimuli is but a bunch of noise. Conversely, the serotonin network is the slow-reward circuit. A high level of serotonin increases the "stability" of thought (and emotion) allowing the mind the ability to stay with an idea or plan for an extended time without losing it due to disruption from new stimuli. (Serotonin reduces the typical tendency to "monkey brain".) Conversely, average serotonin levels and responses makes it difficult to stay consistent on long-term plans or think through complicated strategies without losing the train of thought and so the person derives less value from such concepts or ways of thought. When you put an average person in an environment where sticking with a plan without getting run over by dopamine impulses---say you give them a windfall of money they'd have to make and follow plans for---they'd rather get that shit out of their brain space ASAP either by hiring a financial planner, giving the money away, or blowing it at the fastest rate they know. Could the average human "grow as a person" and learn to make 30-year plans for their personal financial environment. Yes, technically they can but it's the same kind of struggle for them that makes it difficult for the average person to not eat an extra piece of cake when its right in front of them. In that regard, should people "adapt" to longer "trains of thought?" It would benefit them in a way that would allow them to deal with bigger and more complex arrangements in their own life, but it would also come at a cost and perhaps the price is not worth it. "Good enough" will do.

Returning to the environment, a crucial factor is that most people actually don't know themselves very well. The typical person often has a very situational understanding of themself confusing themself for their environment. They're Kegan3 and so see themselves as their social group sees them. For example, in the US practically everybody is told that extroversion is "fun and outgoing" and introversion is "shy and timid". (People are told opposite stories in e.g. Finland.) If an introvert grows up in such an environment, the environment WILL drag them towards a higher skill level of connecting to other people. They might even get quite good at it. Maybe they make a living selling used cars; then wonder why they're always so tired after work or needing a stiff drink to relax. Such a person would, without knowing it, be much happier (more rewarded) by working as a bookkeeper. Now imagine (if you got the acetylcholine and serotonin to stay with the image :-D ) the opposite of an extrovert growing up in a family of bookkeepers and being told to of the high importance of going to college and get a good career as a financial analyst or a surgeon. Having "average neural settings" unlike their more extreme parents or schoolmasters, the child spends the first 20 years of their life training to sit still and read boring books but they do it and they become good enough at it. After work, they often feel like "going out" and blowing off steam in a club dancing the night away. Such a person would likely be much happier in a people-oriented lifestyle once they've "grown" the people skills they didn't learn growing up.

With sufficient self-understanding, people will find their "stoke" once they've identified their reward circuits AND shed whatever environmental constraints or "growing up personality baggage" of patterns they thought everybody ought to have but really don't. As such, part of liberating oneself from the machine certainly involves and requires a big dose of self-discovery. It's a lot easier to get stoked from your internal reward circuits than it is to get stoked by some external idea of conviction of what you think stoke should be ... insofar it's not internally compatible.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

I think you are very much overweighting I/E vs. N/S in creating "likes to read" and/or dopamine vs. acetylcholine spectrum. I know very few people who read as much as I do, and I am very balanced in my I/E, but towards 98%/2% on my N/S. Also, there are a great many introverts who rarely read at all and are much more likely to engage in activities such as knitting or woodworking. In fact, I would describe those I know who are more like me as humans who like to converse about books and ideas. And, I would propose that E/I is dopamine, but N/S is acetylcholine.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

@7wb5 - Reading.is.just.an.example. It doesn't change the point. The relation between reward-circuits and MBTI (or OCEAN) is surely not orthogonal (i.e. e.g. dopamine is not strictly E) but there are definite correlations between them as well as between the circuits and specific activities. Science has been done.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

Yes, I agree with your general point that individuals are differently wired/rewarded for varying behaviors. For example, IlliniDave vs. Me would be very good example of your serotonin vs. dopamine conjecture.

ETA: It also might be the case that I have more consistently found myself in social environments in which people do like to talk about books and ideas and/or engage in debate. I do not enjoy engaging in small talk, but I am also fairly likely to forward a topic of conversation that is of more interest to me. If/when I find myself in a milieu that has "no conversation", I derive little social value from further interaction.

bookworm
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by bookworm »

Focused on one particular complication along the self-discovery path. On the road to figure out internal reward systems, I might assume that my current environment is the best for running the experiment(*). For example, in the social sphere, I could prematurely generalize that all interaction is boring small talk, but I am actually the type of person who is rewarded by "meaningful" conversation. If the environment isn't tweaked, I might withdraw into self unnecessarily when there's a level of fulfillment in interaction invisible where I'm standing(**).

The skill to unlock becomes not so much navigating small talk (beyond basic competence) but rather the meta-skills of choosing companions carefully, flying freak flag high, or moving the conversation towards more interesting territory as 7wb5 is suggesting.

(*) Better thought of as series of experiments over lifespan.
(**) This pitfall would matter only when people are closer to average or higher levels of E. The world would have relatively more on offer for such people. But in order to know that you are actually low E would still require experimentation at some point. There's the opposite issue where you continue switching environments looking for the perfect people rather than coming to the conclusion that you're probably just wired differently from the majority and focusing energies elsewhere.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

bookworm wrote: the meta-skills of (1)choosing companions carefully, (2)flying freak flag high, or (3)moving the conversation towards more interesting territory as 7wb5 is suggesting.
I would offer warning that it has been my experience that engaging in (3) prior or with little care to (1) will often result in (2.) Therefore, in situations in which I seek some other benefit through conversation, such as an attempt to expedite bureaucracy with a bureaucrat, or meeting a BF's 82 year old mother, I will instead choose to engage in pleasant conversation on accepted topics. OTOH, I have often found that attempt to make the conversation more interesting is also beneficial or at least not harmful in situations where there is a decent probability that unknown other(s) is also reasonably intelligent and bored within context. For example, job interviews, dates, or academic situations.

bookworm
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by bookworm »

Good warning. I think I've gone (3) and slipped right into (2) unintentionally. Probably better to do (1) if possible and resort to small talk otherwise. Another tactic is to lead with (2) in order to accelerate (1) to(3). Ofc if taken too far or unable to "turn off" based on context this could create problems for small-talk-only situations.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by suomalainen »

Sooo, jacob, is ere a map or a filter? If it’s a filter, but we all talk about it as a map >>> eternal disagreements. It’s basically a specialized version of a free will debate.

jacob
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

@suo - To answer that question, you need to elaborate a bit more on what kind of answer you're seeking. ERE as in "a practical and philosophical guide..." is a map of the territory that filters both for those who are (un)able to read the map and also for those who don't want to go to the territory described in the map. I've previously used the metaphor of climbing a mountain. ERE1 is station 7 and there's a map of the part going up there. If you have enough money, you can now take the easy bus up to station 5 which is also called MMM. The majority are happy to live at the base of the mountain, maybe take a few quick excursions in the foothills. The reason everybody doesn't live at the top is that while the rewards of climbing higher increases, the cost of climbing also increases. These do not happen at the same rate for anyone, so one tends to stop at the crossover although of course some go too far or not far enough.

Most of the eternal disagreements are about a) which station is best to live on; and b) whether it's possible to get there at a lower cost. They often originate in people generalizing their individual preference or success to something that should be optimal for everyone.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by suomalainen »

Your response is pretty much what I was getting from your post at top of page plus some of the convo on the prior 4-5 pages. Maybe I’d highlight / explicitly juxtapose two thoughts:
jacob wrote:
Fri Jun 06, 2025 7:56 am
The reason everybody doesn't live at the top is that while the rewards of climbing higher increases, the cost of climbing also increases.
[the eternal disagreements] often originate in people generalizing their individual preference or success to something that should be optimal for everyone.
The former sort of assumes agency in a conscious cost/benefit decision sort of way while the latter sort of nods to the inherent deterministic source of our preferences. In short, it seems that ere first filters for people who have a sort of meta-capability of self-awareness applied to both one’s person as well as one’s cultural environment. And only then does ere act as a map for those self-selected few.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Jin+Guice »

@AH:

I view myself as the defender of all non-linear paths to FI. As such I want to point out that the path you pursued was... highly non-linear. From my perspective you opted to semi-retire by going down to 1 day a week at your j*b. Eventually you were laid off. This freed you to pursue a purely stoke driven path, where income was earned incidentally. It sounds like this path failed as you weren't able to resist the influence of money when you knew you still had to earn more? And perhaps you didn't want to be someone who earned no or very little money for status/ esteem reasons?

As this was failing you were offered a very lucrative opportunity to do w*rk, from home, that you somewhat enjoy. While it isn't purely stoke driven (i.e. you wouldn't do it for free/ there are projects you'd rather do) it is still w*rk you enjoy more than most other paid w*rk, especially considering the w*rk/$$ ratio and it will end up leading to FI in an acceptable timeframe, especially when compared to other known paths you could take?

From my perspective this is a pretty ringing endorsement for not pursuing FI as fast as one possibly can. My main goal is to illuminate the world of possibilities that open up when one has VLCOL, which are not merely sprinting to FI as fast as possible, if that is not what one wants. As we live our lives, a world of possibility necessarily becomes a singular path traveled, and as I feel that eventually achieving FI is still a worthwhile pursuit for most, most will find at some point that some of their energy is geared towards FI.

At any rate, it seems that the risk was going down to one day per week at the dayj*b and this seems to have paid off with both the opportunity to explore an avenue that didn't workout and eventually tap into an avenue that will lead to FI with less overall w*rk than your original j*b?

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Your characterization is essentially correct and I agree with your take entirely. It's a good point to bring up wrt my path to where I'm at now and to emphasize that I am NOT down on semiERE.

I'd make a minor tweak to the wording here and there:
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Jun 06, 2025 3:29 pm
From my perspective this is a pretty ringing endorsement for not pursuing FI as fast as one possibly can.
I'd say it's a ringing endorsement for not pursuing FI as single-mindedly and rigidly as one possible can. If life throws you a curveball or your life-environment-system unfolds in a novel/unpredictable way, DONT just keep the blinders on and grit your teeth like accumulate>FI is The Only Way! The curveball might be an excellent opportunity to explore a side trail that will turn out not to be a side trail at all.

In my case, I went down to one day a week because it was a gambit to save my team, and then a year later we both got laid off anyway. I wouldn't change my choices around that. It's worth re-stating that *because* I went semiERE and had lots of time on my hands, I was able to focus very intently on dropping my COL and internalizing post-consumer praxis, which put me in an incredibly strong position to roll into my entrepreneurial gig from.

It's a common story that tradFIRE people will RE and then realize that they oversaved because their COL drops after work. I reversed the order: I've figured out what a "I don't really have a job" COL is for me, without paying the "no time, can't even" tax of trying to internalize post-consumer praxis while FTE and being immersed in consumer culture via coworkers.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Jun 06, 2025 3:29 pm
At any rate, it seems that the risk was going down to one day per week at the dayj*b and this seems to have paid off with both the opportunity to explore an avenue that didn't workout and eventually tap into an avenue that will lead to FI with less overall w*rk than your original j*b?
Yep.

I feel like the essential idea I'm trying to express, which is difficult, is that "FI should probably be decentered from your thinking so you don't get stuck in WL5 land and whiteknuckle through bullshit that you should duck and weave around via semiERE techniques. Also, being FI/aka "solving money forever" seems like a really good state to be in if [see list above of conditions]. VLCOL is magic and makes semiERE *AND* FI just not that hard. So, probably good advice, is to point yourself in the direction of FI via VLCOL, and if circumstances push you in the direction of slowERE for a bit, embrace that and roll with it because probably the serendipity harvesting emergent effect of having a WL6+ WOG will throw something even cooler than you could think up in your lap before too long."

If anything, I'd say that where I went "wrong" or "failed" in my slowERE phase was just putting too much weight or faith into the idea that I could kind of force an as-if-FI money is an incidental yield of pure stoke attitude. I couldn't pull that off and I suspect it'd be really difficult. I was essentially trying to force myself to think and act AS IF money were already a solved problem, but my subconscious knew I was blowing smoke up my own ass and was having none of it.

However, if I'd instead focused on an attitude of "I'm going to largely be doing stoke-directed projects right now; I'll take on jobs and projects here and there to try to at least cover my COL; and I'm going to stay active and engaged with my relationships and with doing fun things. I can do this for quite some time, but most likely serendipity will bring me something cool to do (either I'll have an idea I'm excited about to pursue, or my activity in my network will generate an opportunity, or something else)", I think I'd have enjoyed my slowERE phase more than I did.

To be clear, I DID enjoy my slowERE phase. But I would have been more relaxed about it and less disappointed in myself for not being able to decouple income generation in my mind if I'd had a different mental model regarding what I was actually doing.

--

ETA: having semi/slowERE praxis in your back pocket is a way to have an FU lifestyle before you have FU/FI money. With a little bit of cash and a VLCOL and a "FI is decentered" attitude, you're going to be comfortable walking away from toxic BS and not sacrificing your personal integrity just to keep adding to The Stash.

---

ETA2: This discussion about status and freedom-to wrt FI and my "side" hustle is an echo of a discussion we already had on pg 96, February 24, at the beginning of my business adventure. There's more grist in and around this post related to my feelings about FI, money, and status for those interested.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Due in large part to the recent discussion here about decentering FI, slowERE, etc, I sat down and gave my financial circumstance a good hard think.

I, uh, think I've solved money, guys.

Here's the deal: the business isn't a W2 kinda job. I can't just put in my 2wks notice and turn the spigot off. The most aggressive eject-maneuver I'd be ethically comfortable with would take no fewer than 3 months and would involve earning money and sorting out my equity. However, I'm not actually interested in that aggressive of a move -- what I have in mind is a 6-12 month process of ramping my hours down as I operationalize and automate my portion of the business, until a point where I can maintain a certain involvement/cashflow/etc for something like a couple hours a week with a season or two of more hours. But even if I did take a 3-month route to extricating myself from the business, I'd almost certainly cross my made-up FI number in the process.

Also, a side hustle that developed from my main business -- supporting A's design work -- is something that a) I intrinsically want to do and b) already pays more than my COL.

So my circumstance is that unless something very strange happens, I'm going to cross my FI number (which is made up) in a couple months AND one of my active non-theoretical freedom-to nodes is generating more money than I need to pay my bills (and will pay more when I'm able to put more time into it). So I'll also have cashflow to support my other freedom-to ventures which might need a bit of capital to get off the ground.
AxelHeyst in January 2020 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:15 pm
Goals
  • FIRE in 2027, with a stretch goal of 2025 (maybe 'semi-FIRE in 2025...).
Somewhat related to JnG's point/philosophy, man, I can't imagine having spent the past 5 years doing FTE at my old job. I wouldn't trade my non-linear route to this point for anything.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Mousse »

Congratulations! And interesting observations, as always.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Stasher »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:34 pm
Somewhat related to JnG's point/philosophy, man, I can't imagine having spent the past 5 years doing FTE at my old job. I wouldn't trade my non-linear route to this point for anything.
Right !!! this is how I look back on the last 8 years since leaving FTE and the 13 years since stumbling upon MMM and then ERE.

As someone who leans more towards keeping things simple and not being hard on one's self, just a friendly reminder to enjoy your days and be kind to yourself. Don't let your "status" or "timeline" of goals and objectives take away from how amazing each day can be, I am often reminded of this when in the forest alone or on a long solo bike ride.

Congratulations to finding some clarity on your path unfolding and now maybe just let it flow and see where it goes.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Axel Heyst wrote: I was essentially trying to force myself to think and act AS IF money were already a solved problem, but my subconscious knew I was blowing smoke up my own ass and was having none of it.
I think this may be indicative of the trait of Conscientiousness. Even though ERE/FIRE are outside of the dominant system, they are "games" with their own internal rule-sets, although these may be regarded as reality-based within the framework of late capitalism. IOW, there may be a shifting focus between winning/completing the game/task and the systems/mechanisms to be put in place towards literal survival within varying contexts vs. at different levels of play.
Conscientiousness, a prominent trait within the Big Five personality model, is characterized by a desire to do what is right, fulfill obligations, and strive for excellence. It encompasses traits like responsibility, carefulness, diligence, and a focus on hard work and goal-directed behavior. Conscientious individuals are often organized, efficient, and adhere to rules and standards.
Since all humans tend towards more conscientious behavior in matters deemed important, I suppose the trick is to not burn out one's gears being overly conscientious everywhere. As in the frequently embroidered motto of the less than extremely conscientious:

"Cleaning and scrubbing can wait 'till tomorrow, for babies grow up, we've learned to our sorrow. So quiet down cobwebs. Dust, go to sleep. I'm rocking my baby, and babies don't keep."- Song for a Fifth Child: Ruth Hulbert Hamilton

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

A significant sub-node of my Personal Growth cluster is "Dial Conscientiousness Down" or at least get better at aligning conscientiousness with actions supportive of living a good life for me and those around me. An excess of conscientiousness/poor control of it is a toxic thing. It's part of the internal landscape I have to incorporate into strategy.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Personal growth is hard. I clearly would benefit from boosting my level of Conscientiousness, but it's towards third order personal growth for me. I can't approach it without first addressing my juvenile feminine energy or "I will get shit done, but it won't be pretty." would likely be my motto.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by Scott 2 »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Jun 10, 2025 3:34 pm
What I have in mind is a 6-12 month process of ramping my hours down as I operationalize and automate my portion of the business,
I think this is where you use the new leverage to train others and create 10x earnings. The factory must grow. :)

In all seriousness - as your success establishes expertise, the promise of stupid money becomes a siren song. The guys who started my last employer, did it out of successful exit from a prior venture. They're generationally rich now, but at the price of their 40's and 50's.

It's worth considering what that call might look like to you, and how you'd want to answer it.

I had two inflection points in my career where I declined it. My coworkers in the same cohort, who answered the call to equity holder, are doing very well. But they also fully sacrificed their 30's and are locked in for at least their 40's.

I saw another founder acquihired into what's probably a very similar long term path.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

I have heard the siren call you speak of! Particularly when consuming a lot of entrepreneurial content half-educationally and half-recreationally. (something something mimetic desire...) For me the siren says "you could make a *lot* of money, and then what *couldn't* you build??" and that's very tempting. Pumping the brakes even just a little bit over this past week induced a sort of snap-out-of-it-moment. I've felt a lot more balanced and stoke-directed just cracking a bit more openness in my schedule to pursue the other freedom-to's in my WoG.
Paul Millerd in The Pathless Path wrote:On the pathless path, the goal is not to find a job, make money, build a business, or achieve any other metric. It's to actively and consciously search for the work that you want to keep doing.
To which I would add, "there is a danger/risk in assuming that the work you want to keep doing will generate income or permit you the energetic/cognitive surplus to have a bread job on the side; FI *might* (might!) be a gate you have to go through to be able to do the work you want to keep doing at the scale you want to keep doing. It is worth serious introspection to make a call on this one."

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