The Education of Axel Heyst

[Western Red Cedar]

This is a good comment, it's been on my mind as well. I agree with it almost entirely on paper, but when I reflect on my own experiences I'm not ready to totally go there. For me I think that having a more or less fire-walled stash that is "the FI stash" in case all else fails will be an important component of feeling free to take creative risks with the ventures I have in mind.

I attempted "as-if-FI" for a while, where I tried to only chase stoke and $ yield was incidental. I couldn't do it: concern for my financial well-being over the long term influenced my decisions regardless of what I consciously set as my decision-making variables. I also struggled with "feeling like a loser" -- like I was making excuses for myself because I was unable to hack it in the real world. Having a FI-stash and being able to tell people, when necessary, that I'm financially independent due to intentional strategic decisions around frugality and earned income, and that's why I can do whatever I want now, feels important if only from a status perspective. I want to be able to say "I won your stupid game, now I'm playing my own."

I think we covered a lot of ground in the decentralizing FI thread regarding this topic: viewtopic.php?t=12663

I suspect a lot of this comes down to individual temperament. There are some who are pretty comfortable with a healthy financial cushion, but a lot of us in the FI community seem to need or want a full 25x COL (or higher) for mental ease. It is easy to forget in the accumulation phase that even those on the slow path are so much better off financially than most people.

Part of what spurred the comment is that I noticed near the end of my vagabonding experience that I actually had a lot more options than I had previously considered if I wanted to take a six figure sum and deploy it towards a house or land. Stepping away from a strict adherence to the FI math felt like it may actually make me more resilient in the long run. I also have a lot more fat to cut in my budget though. Having a larger stash and playing in multiplayer mode with a life partner changes the equation as well.

[jacob]

That said, the status thing is something I’ve noticed, it isn’t a goal/something I feel compelled to resolve. I *noticed* that I felt a certain kind of way sometimes regarding my economic status when I’m conversation with certain kinds of people. I’d prefer that I didn’t give a shit, but oh hm, I kind of do. I look forward to not feeling that way ever. This is something I’ve spent about five minutes thinking about in total.

Being a public-facing figure, status is something I've felt compelled to at least understand if not resolve. As far as I'm concerned, status only has meaning in the context of social relations. Yet when it comes to social relations status is practically a game-changer in that you play a different game if you're perceived by someone to have low status vis-a-vis high status. Status is in other words a quick-filter that most humans use to evaluate other humans. In the contemporary vernacular, status is a kind of "relative privilege".

Humans use different currencies to measure status depending on their values. Spiral Dynamics is useful to realize that not all humans use the same currency. Using the wrong currency can make for social faux pas in which you think you're demonstrating high status (yet cluelessly demonstrating low status) while actually being perceived as low status and politely or not so politely dismissed. I've committed a few of those in my time.

List of currencies:

• Purple: Kin and tenure. (ERE alternative: Move to the area you grew up in or to where your SO grew up. Also see viewtopic.php?t=13384 )
• Red: Power and dominance (ERE alternative: Men lift weights to look physically imposing. Women primp to look hot.)
• Blue: Hard work and doing your duty. (ERE alternative: you perform some kind of community service. For example: "I manage a free online forum that educates people on their finances...")
• Orange: High income and owning stuff. (ERE alternative: You're wealthy by their standards ($1M and up qualifies) and/or "you've done well for yourself as an investor". Follow the rules of dressing for success. Display some trendy consumption pattern e.g. drinking fancy coffee, being a foodie, destination vacations, owning a drum set,...)
• Green: Environmentalism and happiness. (ERE alternative: a focus on aesthetics (e.g. minimalism, zero-waste, sustainability, spending time in nature) and self-discovery (e.g. creating art or music, doing yoga, meditation, exotic (to them) forms of travel))
• Yellow: Interesting insights and useful perspectives. (ERE alternative: Just talk about advanced ERE concepts like WOGs, renaissance capital, ...)
• Turquoise: "A higher state of being". (ERE alternative: At least display an interest in/knowledge of the journey even if you have not dedicated yourself to staring at a wall for several hours a day. Think Plotkin, etc.)

The most important thing to understand here is that "status" is not universal but highly situational. It's best to lead with whatever alternative (or similar) that fits the given person/audience. Even if/when highlighting that particular aspect of yourself sounds lame, idiotic, irrelevant, or low-status to you, others will find [that aspect] of prime importance. It is what it is.

[7Wannabe5]

I think there are actually at least two or three different things going on with the desire for FI at Level Yellow. Theoretically, at Level Yellow what you are valuing is towards Optionality/Access/Influence. It's easy to see the core two ways in which FI offers increased Optionality; free time and "venture" capital, although these may be in conflict to the extent that your more venture-ful investments are more risky than Index Fund 3%.

I think what you are addressing in terms of Status might actually have more to do with Influence, because humans are less likely to be influenced by those they perceive as having lower status. Unfortunately, because value-memes do vary across the population, it can get pretty expensive, either in terms of $ or effort, to signal status to all the people all the time. And this also brings up the point that being FI alone is not likely to impress others if the lifestyle being supported is not reasonably attractive or seen as otherwise reasonably secure/maintainable. For example, I am sure there were some months when you were living on your parent's property that you spent almost no money, but you didn't declare yourself FI based on that, you focus more on your running average. OTOH, you aren't hesitating to declare yourself FI absent enough fat-funds adequate to support conventional U.S. upper-middle-middle-class lifestyle. I'm going to estimate this at around $2 million, because it amuses me to note that this approximates net worth of Jacob, Bernie Sanders*, and my least wealthy Millionaire-Next-Door-type grouchy old semi-ex-poly-partner. IOW, you could have a complete weirdo lifestyle that absolutely satisfies you although nobody else wants it, but other humans will only believe that this is entirely of your choosing if you can say that you have $2 million in the bank, so to some extent FI is irrelevant as status marker unless your social circle is limited to frugal math nerds.

Access, to me, is even more associated with who/what you know than how much money you have, but interesting note might be that the relatively new Freemium model is based on providing basic access to most users for free and greater access for additional $$. Apparently, this model is most prevalent in the world of video-gaming, but might be regarded as one form of Level Yellow economic kernel/engine.

*I include Bernie Sanders, because $2 million is also a level of wealth that is not considered "too much" at Level Green, simultaneous to being considered "enough" at Level Blue/Orange. At 2%, it also generates the minimum income that one of my Millionaire-Next-Door friends declared to be the boundary where one could begin to save money. Another rule of thumb that seems to be fairly consistent is that at twice the income deemed necessary to begin saving money, humans will start to feel like they "have more money than they know what to do with."

ETA: For some reason, I didn't see Jacob's post before writing this, so towards repeating some of what he said.

[Scott 2]

You and I are in different positions wrt social signals.
...
We’ll see how my thinking changes once I actually am FI. I’ll be interested to see if I still agree with myself on this.

After experiencing it, I'll be stunned if you derive status from FI. Same with the traditional trappings - house, car, etc. I'd say the biggest impact, is visceral understanding material wealth says nothing positive. Anyone finding that enough will be insufferable.

How'd they get there? What are they doing with it? When the answer is a bunch of challenging shit, then things get interesting. Status is earned. You already walk the path.

From what I understand of your values, it's hard to imagine breaking a material threshold shifting that needle. Hence my surprise. Financial milestones in my own life - paying off the house, hitting my FI number, were underwhelming.

When I retired, it struck home how little status I'd earned. I was all in against a tiny corporate microcosm. The loss felt very real. Rebuilding involved taking on a small percentage of what you already do. Only not as successfully. And it's been enough, at least for me.

[AxelHeyst]

I did a bad job communicating how I feel about status and FI - I lumped too many actually-disparate thought-chunks together. Forget what I wrote before, the following is a clearer explanation:

For a small moment of time in early 2023, I intermittently dealt with doubts as to whether or not I was actually a post-consumer solarpunk on an edgy alternative lifestyle trajectory, or just a loser blowing smoke up his own ass because he didn't want to face the reality of his own circumstances. The major contributor to this feeling is that my relationship with a person I was doing some low-skill work for was a bit off. There I was, 37yo, living on my parents property, pooping in a bucket, didn't have a lot of money, and was earning 15$/hr pulling weeds and digging trenches for a guy who treated me like I didn't know which end of a hammer to hold onto. Ugh!

I concluded in short order that I was, in fact, doing something dope and true to myself, hadn't made any major strategic errors, and was on an exciting journey involving iteration, serendipity, and lots of fun-for-me FAFO experimentation. The fact that most people didn't/wouldn't be able to understand what I was doing didn't bother me. I got out of that not-ideal work situation and went on to spend the rest of 2023 riding my bicycle to Oregon, writing most of my book, build some more solarpunk stuff, hang out with awesome people, did Fest, and generally felt like a badass living his best life the whole time. 2024 and 2025 were/are just more of the same theme.

I don't think I'll feel significantly different wrt status pre- and post crossing my FI number.

----

But there's another piece of the Axel's brain puzzle here. This is the "chip on his shoulder about normie society" piece. I'm not super proud about this but it's relevant: I've thought modern society's rules are kind of stupid for quite some time. I've *always* enjoyed the idea of making it clear to as many people as possible that I think the Normie Game is stupid. That's why I had a 18" long mohawk in college and wore all black and lived in a car and lots of other things. Kinda childish, I know! It is what it is.

It's the "has a mohawk so big he can't fit inside a car" side of Axel that wants to be able to say "I won your game and I still think its stupid and I'm going to do this other thing instead". Why is the FI thing important? Because without it it'll be easy for people to call sour grapes. It's a trope that people who can't hack it in the 'real world' spend all their time whining about how stupid it is, but secretly wish they could be successful like the popular kids. I want that to be demonstrably false in my case. I want to be able to say "Nah, I actually was successful by normie standards, confirmed for my own self that the whole thing was indeed as stupid as I thought it was, and I'm doing X instead."

And I should clarify that I want to be *able to say* "Nah...", but I don't actually want to say it. I want my life to speak for itself. As someone said to me, the people to whom I might say it aren't worth the response.

---

But wait, there's more!

A primary reason I care about how my life is perceived by *certain* others is because I think post-consumer praxis is amazing and more people would have better lives if they adopted it. Insofar as my lifestyle is attractive and relatively clear-cut to others who might be receptive to the post-consumer message, that's a win. Insofar as it is unattractive and confusing to those kinds of people, that's not ideal.

I actually *want* to be able to talk to other people about how a VLCOL is magic and leads to increased resilience and optionality and, if you also layer on some pretty basic personal finance and investing knowledge, leads inevitably as a side effect to becoming FI -- which means massively increased personal autonomy and freedom to pursue stoke at a scale much greater than if you're nights-and-weekends-ing it. I want to do this because this shit is awesome and I want awesome stuff for people. I think the more people who get into this cult--ure, ahem, the better.

This isn't academic: I've opened up about my lifestyle to a few people that I've met randomly (a mid-20's yoga friend of E's comes most immediately to mind) who were intrigued about how I was pulling my lifestyle off, they asked more, and I was happy to unpack the gist of my strategy and exchange numbers with them. Their Overton window just expanded to include post-consumer praxis. Hell yeah! Honestly, if I ever find out that I met one of you stealth-FI assholes in real life and you thought to yourself "this poor bastard could really use some post-consumer praxis in his life; oh well, sucks to be him, I'll just let him suffer in ignorance", you're on my shit list. j/k... but for real though, wtf. (I get being stealth towards your jerk relatives or coworkers etc, no shade there.)

In short, I think about how my lifestyle presents to other people because I am intentionally living a sort-of public life with a specific goal in mind - to spread post-consumer praxis in service of the future successor cultures that will rise out of the ruins of the current arrangement. If I were trying to live a private life I wouldn't think about this at all.

---
Speaking of FI! Yeah, it seems like I've done a 180 on the whole slow-ERE vs accumulate-to-FI question, doesn't it?

Sort of.

First off, @ootb, you're certainly somewhat right in your impression of me. I take strong convictions and hold them lightly, meaning, I'll make a strong assertion about what I think the right move is -- but if I get experience/information to the contrary, I'll change my mind quickly.

I do think I caveat my assertions responsibly, though, so I don't really agree with your depiction of my convictions as ne plus ultras. I might just not totally get the nuance of that term, I had to look it up.

It doesn't seem to me that a statement preceded by "I’m more convinced than ever that..." and post-scripted with "We’ll see how my thinking changes once I actually am FI. I’ll be interested to see if I still agree with myself on this" can be described as ne plus ultra. I mean, I'm already half expecting my future self to either disagree with my present self or have a lot more nuance to add to my current conviction, *and I'm noting that expectation now*, so it doesn't feel like I'm eating humble pie all the time. It feels like I'm learning all the time. Maybe those are the same thing? /shrug

Anyway, regarding this:

My current discovery leans almost in the opposite direction. Not toward a fixed goal to reach, but toward a way of being that blends doing and being—one that integrates work, play, and service into something I’d rather be doing, regardless of whether I was FI or not.

The state of being you describe is almost exactly the way I'd phrase what I'm looking for as well. I don't think I'm saying something opposite. What I'm saying is that I think just banging out FI if it's within reach is in a lot of cases the simplest and easiest way to *get access to* that state of being you describe. Let me try to unpack that.

I went back and read my OP on the Decentering FI thread. While I still agree that one ought to treat FI a lot less as a panacea than a lot of people in the FIRE-space do, I now think that pulling the trigger before FI out of a fear of getting stuck in WL5 is kind of dumb. My OP idea was that it might be better to quit with an FU but not FI stash and then spin up stoke-directed nodes in your WoG and really internalize WL7 etc and probably hey presto you'd become FI anyway via $-as-incidental-yield activities.

The main reason I've changed my mind is because I spent a few years trying the $-as-incidental-yield strategy and it was actually really difficult. The hard part was in preserving a stoke-first, $-is-incidental attitude towards decision-making. I couldn't do it! Anytime a little opportunity came up to earn some cash I was really tempted by it and often said yes, which polluted the stoke-centricity of my WoG.

I also noticed a big difference in my attitude towards working on my book: when I started it I was in my slowERE incidental-income phase, and then halfway through working on it I started my current business venture and started making actual money. Once it became totally irrelevant to my life whether or not my book made any money, *my attitude towards it changed for the better*. It shifted back to pure intrinsic motivation, with no complicating extrinsic-motivation factors involved. This in particular was a big aha moment for me:

If the need to earn money still exists, it will be difficult to preserve a stoke-first attitude towards your WoG. And I highly value a stoke-first, intrinsic-motivation-protected attitude towards my WoG construction. A major reason for this is that I want to be able to spend lots and lots of time and energy in pursuit of projects and initiatives that might have nothing to do with income generation, and I need to be undistracted to do a good job or enjoy those projects/initiatives.

So that's my experience. But I also talk with lots of folks about their WoGs on and off the forum and I've picked up on a trend: I think slowERE is attractive because it looks like a shortcut, but it's actually a trap for a lot of people in a non-obvious way.

slowERE looks like a shortcut because it promises the state of being a master of living NOW, rather than having to wait till after FI. In some cases it does exactly that, and again, kudos to anyone who pulls that off or lucks into a situation that makes that straightforward.

But I think that it's really tempting to say "well, I'm slowERE, I kinda like my work, I've got regular income, I'm planning on working for a long/indeterminate amount of time, so it doesn't reaaaaaaally matter how much I spend or what my SR is. I can float up and down my expenses and it's fine." Which is kind of true, but also it's just really tempting for the COL to stay or float up kinda high. And mo' money mo' problems. (I'm currently observing myself starting to pre-rationalize more expenses because hey, I'm making good money and the work doesn't suck....)

One of my hardcore absolutist convictions is that VLCOL is magic, regardless of if you're trying to do FIRE or ERE or semiERE or whatever. A very low COL is *magic*. Problems that you have at 50k/yr burn rater just poof go away when you spend 20k/yr. Problems you run into when you spend 20k/yr just poof go away when you spend 10k/yr. Even entirely putting aside the ecological ethics of consumption, the skills and systems required to hit a VLCOL is a cheat code for making problems go away.

And so I see a pattern where people kinda hand-wave at the slow-ERE concept but actually.... they're just normies with normie problems and a strange vocabulary, but feel even more frustrated than normies do because they're still kind of *expecting* the ERE promise of a dope alternative post-consumer life. But they're not actually doing it at all! I'm being kind of harsh on purpose because I want these people to feel called out and make better choices for themselves and have doper lives! Or be like "oh y'know actually this ERE bullshit isn't for me" which is also fine, but if you're one foot in one foot out I think you'll have a worse time than if you committ either way. [I don’t mean commit to FI, I mean commit to postconsumer praxis of whatever flavor works for you.]

---

ETA:
Q: So do you think you made a mistake with your slowERE phase?
A: Not at all. Recall that I went to 8hrs/wk in 2020 and then got laid off in 2021. Having the techniques of slowERE, the concept of it, available to me when I got laid off, was great. I was burnt out and needed to sort my head out. I also took the extra bandwidth to go all-in on learning the skills of post-consumerism. Still a WIP obviously, but because of how much time I had on my hands I was able to rapidly drop my COL, increase my resilience, internalize systems thinking, etc. That alone was worth it. Then, I was able to cruise along in a low-stress semiERE mode and be patient and then *bam*, when the opportunity to do this business thing came up I was able to jump on it and now I'm doing a fun entrepreneurship thing that is actually pretty related to my values/vision/etc.

[calamityjane]

Interesting thoughts re: status perspective. I think this is one area in which being a non-conformist (not just a non-consumerist) comes in handy, as characterized by unwieldy mohawks or whatever else suits your aesthetic.

I've never particularly cared what people think about the appearance of my success. I was accepted to a couple of elite colleges, but decided on the state school that offered me a full ride scholarship. I chose English and Art History majors despite all the eye rolls. I never really wanted to get married or have kids. Growing up in the suburbs, I think I positioned my life in direct opposition to that value system and it led me to where I am. At this point, my freedom is entirely its own reward and I find myself largely unconcerned about validation or external value judgments.

Still, there will always be those figures in my life to whom I'm vulnerable, in my case family. I do and I don't share their value system(s), but I definitely find myself growing defensive when describing my lifestyle choices in a way I don't generally. I think it is human nature to be extremely sensitive to whoever your "clan" happens to be and what values they promote. Nobody wants to be pitied or kicked out of the club. So it behooves us all to choose good clans. Like ERE.

BTW, nice loft railing! That's one of my next projects. Did you make the ladder, or was it already there?

[AxelHeyst]

Thanks! The ladder was already there. Let me know if you want detailed pics of how they put it together. More or less just mortised the rails and screwed the steps into the mortises.

[daylen]

What I have observed is that the ERE clan on the whole, being TeFi biased, tends to be somewhat blind to TiFe processing. There is an expectation of outputting thought into a utility-oriented "system" based upon internal value/stoke/harmony. Whereas TiFe tends to output value/stoke/harmony based upon an internal "system" that is more people-oriented. From either bias, the other looks kinda like cycles spinning towards nowhere. The underlying unifier around here being COL and savings rate which are somewhat taboo to talk about in "normie" land. Though, the liminal space between "normie" and niche worlds is where much of the interesting interaction occurs. Blending these worlds is a skill in an of itself, requiring both TeFi and TiFe for optimal effect. This is perhaps why I would be hesitant to completely throw out the SlowERE concept/bridge for those looking to keep one foot in. Although, my TiFe bias makes me somewhat of a permanent impurist around here. It does seem as though having no ground to stand firmly upon gets easier with time.

[Scott 2]

Interesting take on slowERE. Cool to read findings from lived experience.


There was a time when I'd claim the Stealth FI label. I didn't want to rock the boat at work, was intensely focused on my freedom, and purposefully tried to play things down. I was convinced I had THE answer though.

That motivation faded. Now it's more about what emerges from intersecting frames. Connect with others where we share values or interests. This stuff is unusual, so the full picture tends not to come up. My answer isn't their answer. I don't choose to seek where we conflict, but I wouldn't say I'm hiding it anymore.

I've softened on my stance towards others solutions. It's their most effective huerstic. Paraphrasing David Brooks - "how did you come to believe that?". Lean in and see where it goes. Usually they have good reason, are acting rationally and happiest to spend time in their frame. I'm probably masking to hold the conversation, so why not chill where they thrive?

[AxelHeyst]

And to be clear, I’m not anti-slowERE now. I just think there was a kind of backlash against fullFI strategy (maybe just in my own head) for a variety of reasons many of which were very valid critiques (people becoming obsessed, deferring happiness to ‘after FI’, etc). There are definitely risks inherent with the FI approach! And also, it’s pretty damned robust and elegantly simple. And there are risks associated with semi/slowERE as well. The ones I unpacked up above being ones I haven’t read on the site before, so hopefully it’s good for thought for people.

Bottom line, though, is that my warnings are for people who are struggling to figure out a system that works for them and not sure why it isn’t coming together. Maybe what I wrote will help bring some insight. If your system - whatever it is - is working well for you, awesome, carry on!

[bookworm]

There is an expectation of outputting thought into a utility-oriented "system" based upon internal value/stoke/harmony. Whereas TiFe tends to output value/stoke/harmony based upon an internal "system" that is more people-oriented.

I'm biased, but what would an internal "system" more conducive to TiFe look like from an observer point of view and feel like internally? How do the pieces relate logically? What environmental conditions contribute to the flourishing of TiFe and what constrains it? I know a few TiFe dominant people in real life, but their workings remain a mystery to me. I can't see how everything fits together, but I know there is an inner structure. Some are quite happy doing their own thing and most seem uninterested in ERE or related content if it starts with internal value systems / be the change language. What variation of the why-carrot should be used if there is to be productive engagement: viewtopic.php?t=12102

There does seem to be clear clustering on the forum around the Te/Fi versus TiFe poles. This was first observed objectively as a doing/being distinction (there was a helpful diagram a while back that I can't find now). The subjective viewpoint seems to be until recently under-explored. I think AH is exemplifying TeFi in a way that resonates with people (myself included). Some journals if you read between the lines are expressing the alternative TiFe journey.

Although I usually adopt pragmatic systems based on personal values and run with it, there seems to be something incomplete about it based on a relational component that isn't fully captured by multi-player stoke-centric activities. I perceive when this element is missing or absent. There's some shifting depending on life season which can be tricky to navigate. One way to capture is running closer to the middle on J and P (despite J preference).

[daylen]

I'm biased, but what would an internal "system" more conducive to TiFe look like from an observer point of view and feel like internally? How do the pieces relate logically? What environmental conditions contribute to the flourishing of TiFe and what constrains it? I know a few TiFe dominant people in real life, but their workings remain a mystery to me. I can't see how everything fits together, but I know there is an inner structure. Some are quite happy doing their own thing and most seem uninterested in ERE or related content if it starts with internal value systems / be the change language. What variation of the why-carrot should be used if there is to be productive engagement: viewtopic.php?t=12102

This depends a lot on type (i.e. where TiFe is in stack) and development. Generally, TiFe looks like bringing multiple value sets together through a unifying logic and doesn't itself feel any particular way (i.e. emotions tend to mirror context). Ti can be quite subtle/introverted when looping with Fe (which is more difficult in absence of tighter Fe feedbacks associated with facial expressions). Ti in essence is logic seeking parsimony, whereas Te in essence is rationality seeking a goal. TiFe thrives in the process of harmonizing or weaving together rifts in the social/emotional context. For instance, TiFe may try to help two people arguing past each other by introducing an intermediate construct between them that both sides can use as a stepping stone towards each other. If resolution cannot be reached due to some underlying incommensurability, TiFe will tend to be uncomfortable and seek an exit. This may be felt as a failure of the Ti system to reach deep/wide enough to cover all the poles/people of the situation. The structure is generally the same as for Te at the micro-level but arranged more like a small-world network with few steps between each construct at the macro-level.

Carrot will depend more on developmental stage than type. Though, generally TiFe will be more responsive to not having/doing [because of ethical reasons] than on doing [because of moral reasons].

[bookworm]

@daylen Your description makes sense of people I know (mainly thinking of INTPs). As a shared example, I could see TiFe in someone focused on the metacrisis and trying to integrate perspective after perspective (Nate Hagens?)

Without larger scale structures (e.g. community hub/forum), it seems that overall ERE praxis is more of a challenge under TiFe
(leave that to externally-focused TeFi to get things going), but that once there's a baseline level of adoption, it provides synergy.

This implies that ERE praxis in single player mode may simply not fulfilling from that perspective since the potential for harmonizing and expansion into the external world is not there to a sufficient degree. One solution is to adopt researcher/sage/traveler roles as supplement. These would appear to be unrelated to ERE "fundamentals" but can be seen as filling necessary gaps in the overall model from the perspective of Ti. In practice, this translates into increased focus on being and seeing (combined with the not-having approach to VLCOL)

[bookworm]

I think slowERE is attractive because it looks like a shortcut, but it's actually a trap for a lot of people in a non-obvious way.

This matches my experience. I dragged out the accumulation and skill development phase for longer than I would have liked to from where I'm standing now (of course it's all about the journey...etc.) CoL stayed in 20-30k range with increasing skill but dominant frame centered on money solutions to money problems. Downside was social perception (sending mixed signals) and substantial internal conflict between my ideal of who I wanted to be and who I actually was.

From the perspective of a salaryman, the "decentering FI" thread helped me stop seeing ERE as something to get to later after white-knuckling to FI. It also addressed my moving the goalposts problem of sighting on higher and higher stash amounts (4%->3%->2%->...) combined with some lifestyle inflation. I still up ended up oversaving substantially because my spending dropped more than I thought possible at the outset. Long story short - I got a lot out of that discussion as a conventional FIRE person nearing the "end", even if I wasn't really the intended audience.

[ertyu]

Imo status is best separated from being FI (at least mentally). The drive for status is a Monkey OS thing, which means that most humans come pre-loaded with it to one degree or another. Most humans are also average (by definition of average). In addition, achieving status through positive personal accomplishment is hard. So monke get status easy: by dunking on other monke. It's often said that others don't care about you and aren't paying attention to your minor foibles etc. Sounds nice, but it's untrue. Most people walk around constantly searching for people to judge and look down on, first because their shadows aren't gonna project themselves, and second because looking down on people is easy while hard work is hard. Entire cultures are organized around "face" and how you appear to people. In such cultures, you try your hardest not to lose "face" because you know that if you do, others will rip you to shreds in mad glee.

So let's say you're an ageing mediocre schmuck with no skills, like I highly suspect 2023-job dude was. And here is this young, capable buck, while you're ageing. How do you make your ego be ok with needing his help? You make less salient the things you're weak at, you amplify what you do have -- you see yourself as the successful one, the one with the cash, and you devalue what he has (vigor and skill). You then treat him in a vaguely condescending manner throughout your exchange. While I wasn't there, I'm almost 100% positive that this is what happened. It is actually perfectly possible to hire a person to help you with something and to not be condescending to them at all.

Also, notice that 0 things so far have been about you. It's all been about him and his bullshit ego games. And these games did not occur because you have no cash, they occurred because he had insecurities to act out and wanted to win the status game the easy way. He would have found a way to try to be condescending even if you were FI because none of this is about whether you have money or not, it's about what HE doesn't have. You thinking, "if I only were FI he wouldn't have treated me like this" is you attempting to control what you can't control. Also here go, "if I hadn't worn the short skirt he wouldn't have raped me," "if I am a perfectly looking tradwife I'd be the one exceptional female he treats like a person," "if I cook perfect dinners he won't trade me in for a younger model in 15 years," "if i break my back at my job my boss would see me as a human being rather than as a unit of labor and i can control my fear of job loss" etc. It's all a fool's errand. The only way to win is not to play. So, my thinking is this: pursue FI or don't for it's own sake, but take the status out of it and sort it out separately. Status is a Monkey OS psychological thing. Sort it out with psychological tools: inner (EK, navel-gazing, journaling...) and outer (assertive behavior skills, both verbal and physical -- wrote something in the sales resources thread on that, a lot of interpersonal impact is in the vibe you bring and in how you hold your body).

ETA: this post

[bookworm]

The form of the status game changes based on value structure I've realized. Sometimes coming into a new social structure I've thought: "finally I can relax into this" before seeing the new status is being determined. I do think it gets more subtle and refined at "higher" levels, but that doesn't mean it isn't there (just harder to spot).

So imo Monkey OS gets new updates from time to time, but it's basically the same software on similar hardware. Once inner and outer work for base application is sufficiently stable, then flavorful appreciation/presentation is an add-on based on value frameworks if that's helpful/interesting to you.

Overall, seeing underlying Monkey OS/hardware + presentation patterns is helping me, even if the answer in many situations is not to play.

[jacob]

I'm biased, but what would an internal "system" more conducive to TiFe look like from an observer point of view and feel like internally? How do the pieces relate logically? What environmental conditions contribute to the flourishing of TiFe and what constrains it? I know a few TiFe dominant people in real life, but their workings remain a mystery to me. I can't see how everything fits together, but I know there is an inner structure. Some are quite happy doing their own thing and most seem uninterested in ERE or related content if it starts with internal value systems / be the change language. What variation of the why-carrot should be used if there is to be productive engagement: viewtopic.php?t=12102

Consider that within stack theory, identifying a temperament by two judging functions or two perceiving functions only happens at the second and third function. IOW, TiFe only happens for *TiFe* and by [stack theory] construction, this can only be valid for NeTiFeSi (ENTP) and SeTiFeNi (ESTP).

I think @daylen already answered but let me give a one-sentence "translation". TiFe "checks for logical consistency [of the primary function] in the context of one's social environment". For an ENTP, the primary function is Ne which sees patterns everywhere. TiFe then checks whether these patterns are consistent with their own social environment. 7wb5 would be a case in point. For a given situation, the ENTP brain will either light up with multiple connections and start unspooling them on an unsuspecting audience, only checking what they write for any obvious logical inconsistencies (but making little effort in terms of highlighting any kind of Te logical progression), and usually relating it to people they are socially connected to albeit perhaps not explicitly. In a conversation, they will use TiFe to nitpick your arguments for logical inconsistencies at it applies to how the idea is applicable for socially relating to others.

Note that TiFe is not the primary focus here. It's better to think of functions 2+3 as the "implementer" of function 1 which is the primary focus.

The ESTP would do something similar except instead of spinning off on Ne-patterns, they will look at what's right in front of them. This could be what they see on TV [right-now] or what they read [right now]. To be mean about it, ESTP (with a poorly developed Ni) is always (re)acting to the last person they talked to or heard from. TiFe works the same way though. "Does what this person is saying make sense in a way I can apply it to how I relate to others?" With a better developed Ni in 4th, the ESTP becomes able to think more than 0 steps ahead. Usually ESTPs converge on roles where they don't need to though.

(INTJ fundamentally has Ni which is a "system of the world" which the INTJ has been building on since they began to think formally about the world (for them, age 6+ or so). Here TeFi serves to implement the world model in a logically deductive way in accordance with their personal values. Your typical INTJ will not be talking about or thinking about other people a whole lot instead treating them as abstract groups.)

In terms of support and constraint, the answer is easy. Anything that supports the functions is literally happy juice for the person because it triggers their neurochemical reward system. Anything that goes against it is not rewarding. All types can eventually learn to play another type. The reason this doesn't come easy is that it's simply not as rewarding. They receive less dopamine, oxytocin, acethylcoline, ... than they otherwise would.

Ti is not happy when forced to deal with logical contradictions even if it's a "special case that does not apply here".
Fi has little interest in how someone else might feel about something if it means overriding their own feelings.
Te does not appreciate messy reasoning or inefficient solutions that don't work well.
Fe objects if the process is inconsiderate to people's feelings

Ti is very happy once there is a "proof" for the argument.
Fi is happy and full of conviction when the cause is righteous.
Te appreciates a beautifully written argument or piece of code.
Fe loves when social harmony reigns.

(This also makes it clear that the larger the group and the more diverse the temperaments, the harder it gets to make everybody happy. Instead humans have developed various methods for "good enough". Methods like voting, unfortunately, leads to a tyranny of the majority in terms of which neural rewards are made available.)

In terms of why-carrots, you need to be looking at the primary function because that's "the carrot" people live for. 2+3 is just how they get [that carrot]. For example, as an INTJ if I hadn't felt crimped/constrained by the academic system of tenure and grantsmanship and serving as a cheap labor for other people's ideas under a pretend-student arrangement, but instead had been hired as a professor to teach and research what I found interesting and relevant, then I wouldn't have had to create ERE (both the lifestyle but also the textbook and this forum) as an alternative.

This is also why FIRE-type communities mainly attract INTJ, INTP, and a few ISTJs. These are the least satisfied with what the average world currently offers. Conversely, if you're happy in the current environment, there's no reason to look for alternatives.

[AxelHeyst]

This matches my experience. I dragged out the accumulation and skill development phase for longer than I would have liked to from where I'm standing now (of course it's all about the journey...etc.) CoL stayed in 20-30k range with increasing skill but dominant frame centered on money solutions to money problems. Downside was social perception (sending mixed signals) and substantial internal conflict between my ideal of who I wanted to be and who I actually was.

From the perspective of a salaryman, the "decentering FI" thread helped me stop seeing ERE as something to get to later after white-knuckling to FI. It also addressed my moving the goalposts problem of sighting on higher and higher stash amounts (4%->3%->2%->...) combined with some lifestyle inflation. I still up ended up oversaving substantially because my spending dropped more than I thought possible at the outset. Long story short - I got a lot out of that discussion as a conventional FIRE person nearing the "end", even if I wasn't really the intended audience.

Nice, thanks for sharing this.

An interesting dynamic of my path that's worth highlighting is that *because* I got laid off so far away from FI and earned close to nothing for a couple years, I essentially took a mini-sabbatical where I put most of my energy into "getting to WL7" / aka internalizing systems thinking in a post-consumer context etc. This had the effect of proving to me that I can live a great life on $10k/yr or less (everyone's situation/number is different, I'm just saying I found "my" range that I'm comfortable with), so my FI number is pretty modest. Also, since I was in fact able to scrounge up sources of income generation here and there in a mostly-fun way, I'm pretty blase about the precision of "my number". I'm kind of seeing FI as more a state of mind. I mean, even when FI you've still got to manage your money, make allocation/balancing decisions, etc etc. There's still *labor* involved. The line is not as hard as some of us (me) imagine, I think.

A trap with FI is that you over-focus on money, forget to live your life now/defer happiness, assume that FI will be a magic land of rainbows and bjs, whiteknuckle for too long, put a lot of importance on "not having to earn another cent for the rest of your life under any condition including Armageddon", and then finally quit your day job and realize you are staring into the yawning abyss of infinite-weekend freedom with no tools or guidance. Often you find yourself stuck at WL5.

A trap with slowERE is just what you relayed - you cruise along, COL isn't a big deal so maybe it stays kind of high, you have a good amount of free time on your hands but you're still tethered to whatever your income source is so you aren't THAT free because the difference between 0 and 10 or 20 is much MUCH bigger than the difference between 10 or 20 and 40. Often you find yourself stuck at WL5.

The more I think about it, the more I want to put "VLCOL IS MAGIC" on a billboard. That sounds like an over-focus on money, but I think it's actually a hack to force yourself to get to WL7 faster, in which case the FI or semiERE argument becomes either academic or rather totally subjective because you're operating an honest-to-god WoG now and that's actually the state of being all this verbage is driving at, and you'll be able to decide which path forward is best for you.

ETA: This post seems relevant to stick here:

The longer one is cold, the harder it is to get warm. The longer one is forced to act normal, the harder it is to be weird. The longer one endures the stagnation imposed by FTE, the harder it is to not be stagnant.

VLCOL at WL5 suuuuuuucks. If you can stick to it, and keep hanging around the forums and reading the book, you'll inevitably put in the effort to level up to WL6 and 7, and then your life will be amazing. If you solve the tension of VLCOL at WL5 with increased spending... you're headed back in the opposite direction.

--

Imo status is best separated from being FI (at least mentally).

Now I'm worried people think I've decided to pursue FI because of status, and I feel compelled to set the record straight.

But why do I feel compelled to set the record straight? It's because NOW I'm concerned about my status in the ERE club - my status will take a hit if people think I'm pursuing FI for status reasons. It's low status to care about status 'round these parts.

...and now I'm in a real pickle, aren't I?

[jacob]

This isn't academic: I've opened up about my lifestyle to a few people that I've met randomly (a mid-20's yoga friend of E's comes most immediately to mind) who were intrigued about how I was pulling my lifestyle off, they asked more, and I was happy to unpack the gist of my strategy and exchange numbers with them. Their Overton window just expanded to include post-consumer praxis. Hell yeah! Honestly, if I ever find out that I met one of you stealth-FI assholes in real life and you thought to yourself "this poor bastard could really use some post-consumer praxis in his life; oh well, sucks to be him, I'll just let him suffer in ignorance", you're on my shit list. j/k... but for real though, wtf. (I get being stealth towards your jerk relatives or coworkers etc, no shade there.)

I'm definitely stealth. Not that I'm deliberately hiding it. I don't need to because very few muggles understand FI or post-consumerism without elaborate explanations and even then many revert to denial because it's less painful to avoid understanding that there is an alternative to their struggles. The only group I've come across who instantly got it was traders.

The reason I'm not spreading the gospel to anyone who could use it is because when most humans bitch about their struggles, they much prefer a sympathetic ear over unsolicited solutions. If I start solving problems for them or talk about FI/ERE in an "I did it and so can you", I'm likely to get on their shit list. It's possible that I just lack the charisma to pull it off. However, changing the typical person's mind on a level as deep as values and lifestyle takes several steps and is generally only possible when certain conditions are met. E.g. they have to be ready, hear it from the right person, be aware of A before B, etc.

Fortunately, there's the internet where I just have to put myself out there and the few who are ready, willing, and capable of changing their mind will come to me. Other than the trading room mentioned above, I've never come across a group of people where the density of the above mentioned qualities were high enough to even bother.

[7Wannabe5]

I think @daylen already answered but let me give a one-sentence "translation". TiFe "checks for logical consistency [of the primary function] in the context of one's social environment". For an ENTP, the primary function is Ne which sees patterns everywhere. TiFe then checks whether these patterns are consistent with their own social environment. 7wb5 would be a case in point.

Yes, although I am actually an XNtP, thus my presence here and my semi-and/or-intermittent lack of satisfaction with what the current environment has on the offer. Two immediate examples I came up with vis-a-vis daylen's observation would be (1)that the variety of "waste" that seems present in TeFi functioning from the perspective of TiFe is like two Modern single humans each purchasing their own home, and then realizing that they want to marry/live with each other, so now they have more house than they need. Or (2) when the concept of ERE city came up, my immediate "logical social hostess" thought was that although forum members have much in common, each one might likely bring a plus-one in some form, and the probability that the plus-one cohort would be comprised of humans more extroverted/social than the actual forum member cohort would be quite high, and the ramifications of this might be x,y,z, etc.

. The drive for status is a Monkey OS thing, which means that most humans come pre-loaded with it to one degree or another. Most humans are also average (by definition of average). In addition, achieving status through positive personal accomplishment is hard.

Yes, I think this is towards why Hanzi recommends alternate goal of "sublime mediocrity" at Level Yellow. I would also note that it has been my experience that focus on status does decrease with age. Maybe just because you come to realize that everybody is currently unhappy and/or not growing as a human. Anyways, my favorite approach to status games is to repurpose an old one, find or invent a new one, or self-aware play at the "wrong" one. And, because there is nothing new under the sun, I think this is towards the Level Green/Yellow happy/interesting-systems approach. For example, if you are in a room where everybody is talking boring "career" status, start talking about your pickled egg recipe, transcendent sex, or weather patterns related to societal collapse. Remember what Tolstoy said, "All happy winners are alike and therefore way too boring to write a very long novel about."