semiERE: exploring semi-retirement

[berrytwo]

-An awareness of FI and the underlying math
-A desire for financial independence
-Rejection of a fast-track mentality to FI
-An unconventional career/work history, or at least being okay with one
-Reliance on other forms of capital beyond the monetary system (especially social capital)
-A desire for agency over ones time and a willingness to sacrifice monetary gain for that agency
-Some financial base and/or income source to provide that agency
-Application of systems-thinking to ones life and FI
-Trust in serendipity to provide future opportunities
-Actively searching out serendipity and opportunities for income generation (or cost reduction)
-A higher risk-tolerance than those on the traditional FI path
-A plan to reach full FI through investments, earned income, reduced expenses, or a combination of all three before traditional retirement age

-Avoiding the damaging nature of full time employment on health, relationships, family, hobbies, skills and the ability to converse on non-work related subjects.

-Necessity is the mother of invention. Most humans, when given the option to do nothing, succumb to the temptations of nothing-adjacent pastimes like sports spectating, gaming, drinking, television watching, mindless scrolling, marijuana ingesting, book-clubbing, porn consuming or gambling. Even worse are those who manufacture physical or mental ailments to give themselves something to think about and do.

Yes! This is how I understood it too.

I am trying to map this in terms of wheaton levels / spiral/ MBTI not sure if they can be correlated or not. Is there an upper limit on the WL of someone that is slow/ semi ere not yet reached FI? Maybe not because AH is just now FI-ing. People can actualize without being retired, but I do get the whole 'can't fully be untethered from money' argument for being FI. I think that there would be a LOT more greenies into semi/ slow ere.

I do agree that Te users would like fast ERE.

[jacob]

I am trying to map this in terms of wheaton levels / spiral/ MBTI not sure if they can be correlated or not. Is there an upper limit on the WL of someone that is slow/ semi ere not yet reached FI? Maybe not because AH is just now FI-ing. People can actualize without being retired, but I do get the whole 'can't fully be untethered from money' argument for being FI. I think that there would be a LOT more greenies into semi/ slow ere.

I do agree that Te users would like fast ERE.

I think it's temperamental. Particularly this: https://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html and perhaps somewhat this: https://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html ... and it speaks to how people engage with what they're doing in terms of depth and breadth. I'll bet that those who prefer slow-ERE are more likely than not to be able to think of their work as "just a job"/"a bunch of tasks to complete" for which they have an off-switch when they go home or on vacation. And when they go back to work the next day or to some other job the next year, they can easily switch back on and start up where they left off. I'll wager a somewhat lower amount that this switch also exist for other activities. IOW, task-switching comes very easy to them. They are fine on the "manager-schedule". They can organize their work and also the rest of their life in the form of to-do lists. (A good example are those who sometimes make posts about their daily schedule like 8:00-8:05 drink coffee, 8:05-8:30 read newspaper, 8:30-10:00 study economics book, 10:00-12:00 write novel,...)

Whereas those, who prefer fast-ERE, are more fully integrated with their activities. Their work or their interests are not a job they HAVE, it's who they ARE. They can not task-switch and therefore something like a part-time job for a 1-2 days a week or 1-2 hours per day is deadly to the other things they want to do. The reason being that it breaks the concentration. It would basically be impossible to do original research (at the level of publishing in scientific journals as a principal investigator) on a part-time basis. (It would be possible to assist a researcher which routine/rule-based bench work, but that's not the level of creativity that I'm talking about.) It is rather less likely that they are able to write out what they seek to accomplish in linear to-do lists. (Their schedule is more like "I woke up and took a shower where I had a flash of insight based on the stuff I've been thinking about for the past three days. Then I spent the rest of the day trying to write it out. At some point, I noticed it started getting dark outside and I was also beginning to feel hungry, so I jotted down a few notes and diagrams to hopefully not lose any threads and be able to pick it up tomorrow.")

I also think (but will not insist as much) that it's harder to nerd-out with slow-ERE. Like the regular working Joe, slow-ERE affords one or two lifetime proficiencies like e.g. running or playing an instrument, but otherwise life is too busy doing "life things" like paying rent to master more than a couple of things. Whereas fast-ERE is more appealing to the "serial mastery" nerds. Without being too conceited, I'm confident I can carry on a technical conversation at at-least the competent level in the following interests from my post-FIRE life: sailing, bike repair, woodworking, epidemiology, personality-typing and social dynamics, clock making, climate science, US politics, microcontroller electronics, and realistic flight sims with some of them at the proficient level. I'm definitely acquiring these for my brain space at a faster rate than I did when I was working.

OTOH, the popular-prototype is not really interested in knowing everything they can about something that catches their interest. They're happier connecting with others and would rather know-about "someone" than know "something". Here connecting widely with part time jobs and people and communities is a "feature" rather than a distraction. Whereas the scientist or the CEO is at their happiest and best the more they can get rid of the interference of having to deal with anything outside what they're currently focused on. They'll rather have a secretary than be someone's secretary. Obviously being FI helps a lot with that.

The key is not to put people in the wrong strategy. If you put the maker-nerd in a slow-ERE situation they'll feel constantly distracted and pressured by the things they have to do and get frustrated if they're not able to go deep for the things they're really interested in. Same reason they wanted to retire from their full-time job once they lost interest in them, in the first place. I quit my physics career once developing and writing the ERE concepts took over my mind. I was simply unable to show up at 9 in the morning, think about physics for 8 hours, then go home and think about ERE for the next 4. A maker-brain doesn't work like that. It's hard to pull different ideas together if those ideas are switched out for a different set of ideas every 8 hours. As such, there's a strong motivation just to get over and done dealing with the "bugs" ASAP.

Conversely, if you put the popular-manager in a fast-ERE situation, they'll get bored from not having a bunch of people and tasks to manage. They won't automagically find joy in going deep with some interest and use it to fill out all their time. Instead they'll end up trying to fill their waking space with consumer-grade entertainment of which there's basically not enough quality and quantity for 100 hours a week.

[7Wannabe5]

@berrytwo:

I think that there is a sort of effective ERE Wheaton level barrier for humans who are not of type INTj. And this is for towards the same reason that young humans who are raised in bilingual households may be relatively late talkers. I think the evidence of this would be that humans who are of INTJ or near type who have never encountered ERE/MMM will also often follow similar paths. For example, my FIL who was a chemist specializing in a particular metal, was also very interested in health metrics and retiring early in order to hike, bike, and garden. He only grew useful vegetables in his garden and he biked the entire Lewis and Clark trail at age 69. He also did woodworking. His first wife, my MIl, was an ESFJ, who frequently annoyed him by interfering with his plans by doing stuff like having too many kids or insisting on a kitchen renovation. His third wife who was an iSTJ annoyed him less and also took care of him (because her duty)when in spite of all his health consciousness he declined into slow paralysis due to neurological Parkinson like condition in his 70s. So, he left her most of his not insignificant savings.

@jacob:

I think the dichotomy you describe mostly applies to INTJ vs towards ESTJ schism. It doesn’t really apply to my semi-ERE experience as an xNtP. In the 11 years that I have been on the forum I have gained some level of competence (or further competence) in permaculture, early childhood education, math education, polyamory/sexual relationship theory, energy/climate/eco-systems, IT/Data, personality typing/Spiral/Kegan/Hanzi etc. and probably something(s) else I am forgetting. And at least two or three of these competencies are at a level where I can now earn money with them.

I think the difference between a plate spinning or juggling generalist ENTP and a serial master INTJ is that the “juggler” holds the ability to once again pick up a ball of interest and add a layer of competence, not on an hourly Managers Schedule, but throughout a lifetime. For concrete example, 11 years ago I would have placed my level of competence in Early Childhood Education at Engaged Mother Who Also Sometimes Provided Daycare for Others or Helped Out at Co-op Nursery and now my level of competence is At Least 85% Able to Professionally Teach Kindergarten. I am not certified to teach kindergarten, but I am quite confident that if I took a long term substitute assignment I could manage the task, and I also know most of the 15% unknown I would have to get up to speed on.

[jacob]

I think the dichotomy you describe mostly applies to INTJ vs towards ESTJ schism.

There might be something to that except I think it's more INTJ/INTP/ISTJ vs everyone else. If we consider the original FIRE-movement, it was heavily populated by just three types: INTJ, INTP, and to some degree ISTJ. These happen to be the same types you often find at the nerd-table at the high school cafeteria AND rarely find on other tables. Nerds also happen to be makers rather than managers for the most part.

Going by the triangle in ERE book chapter 1, the INTJ/INTP/ISTJ types also checks all 3 in terms of "dissatisfaction with standard options", "vision to see alternatives", and "ability to follow a plan all the way out". Whereas other types might only hit 0, 1, or 2 of these in which case FI is not pursued.

I bet if we sorted people accordingly, there would be strong correlations between fast-FI ERE preferred by strongly typed INTJ/INTP/ISTJ vis-a-vis slow-FI ERE preferred by everybody else (all other types including the types who "don't believe in typing" or "can't figure out their own type"). There are two experiments here: both the positive and the negative statement.

[MidsizeLebowski]

As someone firmly in the makers categorization while also engaging in slow ERE I’ve found it helpful to choose income opportunities that offer depth and breadth. IE. after an entire weekend of field work on erosion control I’ve found myself studying stream dynamics/riparian ecosystems into the wee hours of the morning in order to comprehend a particularly challenging problem in the landscape. My other primary means of income - soil food web/gardening, and health and human movement are equally immersive… perhaps this is a consideration for those pursuing slow-ere. Far from being a bunch of tasks to complete or just a job, these are things I would do absent of pay but have monetized due to the fishbowl I’ve been born into swimming.

The task switching friction is reduced by having broad blocks of time dedicated to each - ie. on a day I’ll be working in personal training I wouldn’t open a book on erosion or walk the stream flowing through our home landscape as this could become “all-consuming” and lead to difficulty engaging with other tasks fully.

“Yes I think we can prevent those early signs of patellar tendinitis from advancing by building a baffle that erodes the bank adjacent to those cottonwoods. Huh? Oh yes we want to hold the position on this split squat.”

The main benefit of slow-ERE to my experience has been having the optionality to turn passions into jobs (despite well intended advice to the contrary) - as others have noted on the forum; it’s hard to burn out on something when you’re deeply immersed in it and only “have” to do it intermittently. For a slowERE strategy it’s much more effective earning wise and life satisfaction wise to earn in line with organic trends toward mastery. I’d perish from boredom slowEREing over 2 decades as a Walmart stocker 16hrs/week though it’s certainly a valid option for others inclined to an off-switch.

[Jean]

Are intp really good at following plans? It's not what i understood about the type, and It hasn't been my experience either.
I think the main drive for intp to go with fast ere, is to want to be done with it. And this drive is very strong because its possibly the type for which a career sucks the most. But intp dont seem to be reliable when it comes to maintain sustained interest in something for very long.

[jacob]

The task switching friction is reduced by having broad blocks of time dedicated to each - ie. on a day I’ll be working in personal training I wouldn’t open a book on erosion or walk the stream flowing through our home landscape as this could become “all-consuming” and lead to difficulty engaging with other tasks fully.

Not quantifying how big the blocks of time are contributes greatly to us/everybody talking past each other. I read Paul Graham talking about "at least half a day blocked off" to solve a coding problem. You mention block-periods on the order of of a day. Whereas the kind of scientific work I did was usually approached in "half a year"-blocks, that is, one paper at a time. A half day or a one day block would get me nowhere---I might as well not bother even starting.

The way I think of it is in terms of "retooling" vs "production" times. These are not the same for all tasks. Woodworking illustrates this well. For example, a table saw takes maybe 5 minutes to set up for a particular job (retooling), 1 minute to organize the wood (overhead), and 1 minute to do the cut (production). Whereas with a handsaw, it takes 1 minute to organize the wood (overhead), 0 minutes to set up (retooling), but 5 minutes to do the cut (production).

As such, with the table saw approach, it makes sense to only do the setup for a given kind of part once and proceed to cut all the parts before retooling for the next part. Whereas with the handsaw approach, one can switch it around at-will making one part, then a different part, etc.

(This is ignoring situations (without loss of generality) where another activity might provide a welcome distraction or relaxation.)

I think it's obvious that if someone is working a table-saw, then constant task-switching (between parts) would greatly lower efficiency. For table-saw type production, it's desirable to retool as little as possible, ideally only once. The upside of this is that a tablesaw greatly increases production. Is greatly increased production desirable? Again, this depends on the type of focus/work/mission one has. "Galaxy brain"-type problems require more more "production" in that sense than e.g. solving a random plumbing problem or helping a child with their homework each of which require little "production".

Ultimately, it's not that one approach is better than the other. Rather that one's approach depends on what kind of focus or "work" one's life is about.

Add: Perhaps a better example than production-sawing is sports. Anyone who has competed in more than one type of sport (not at the same time!!) has probably noticed how their body adapted and changed from one sport to the next making what used to be easy become hard or even impossible. E.g. someone who used to squat hundreds of pounds would have developed a big ass and big legs to the point of chafing when walking ... but if they then switched to ultra-running, they'll gradually turn into a flat ass with chopstick legs. This transition did not happen from one day to the next .. or even from one month to the next. Indeed it could not happen because it takes time to build up the muscles/tendons/nerves/... to compete (not just participate) at a high level. Someone "doing both at the same time" would never experience squatting 400 pounds while also running a sub-3:30 marathon. However, it would be possible to spend a few years achieving the first (400lbs) ... and then retool and spend a few years achieving the second (sub 3.5 hrs).

[daylen]

I'm more of an imaginative "head in the sky" nerd than maker-nerd. I've tried some full-time, but I suspect there are no jobs or careers that I would want to put that much effort/attention towards even for just five years. Slow-ere is a pretty good adaptation for my brain as I find the subtle shades of variation serving as imaginative fuel. I can't really help but see/feel all tasks as integrated into some universal puzzle that keeps drawing my attention into the abyss.

[jacob]

Are intp really good at following plans?

No, but they are at least capable of respecting that the plan will work. Like they will be convinced if you show them the math. Whereas ISTJs are perhaps not as easily/immediately convinced by a mathematical argument, but they're very good at following rules once they have adopted those rules.

Note, correlation, not causation. Just because the majority of FIRE'd types are INTJ/INTP/ISTJs doesn't mean that the majority of INTJ/INTP/ISTJs get FIRE'd.

[Jean]

@daylen
Yes exactly.
When it comes to making, i have great enjoyment in making a perfect plan, that requires the very little effort to be done.
When i remodelled my home i spent much more time thinking than doing, but the doing was very quick.
It adds the advantage to limit the time spent living in a construction site.
Exceptions are data collections, where doing is not for the result, but the knowledge of the result, and mindless task where you get to think about something else.

@jacob
Ok, your implication was that non nt can't even understand a plan
I imagine then that entp entj and estj lack the dissatisfaction?

[MidsizeLebowski]

Great point Jacob, a good reminder to start with defining of terms.

Interesting to note Daylen, has your experience been that mini-careers/employment follow a thread of continuity with regard to previously placed puzzle pieces? Wondering if there’s a “continuation of skill” as discussed upthread.

[jacob]

Ok, your implication was that non nt can't even understand a plan

Most types can "understand" a plan, especially if they're walked through it. It's more that most people won't accept a plan on its own merits if the plan contradicts their rules, conventions, habits, feelings, "common sense", etc. They'll go right back to ignoring the plan after the argument/explanation is over.

But there are a few types who when being exposed to better logic will proceed to replace or reform their own logic and do so contrary to rules, conventions, habits, feelings, "common sense", etc. INTJs in particular are notorious for this.

[Stasher]

I'm just gonna come out and say that so much of what gets discussed here (and in all threads) goes so deep and so far over my head that I can't even get into the discussion. I'm simple and usually just go with whatever has the least barriers or friction points, I hate letting process/perfection get in the way of actually doing. (that being said I try my best to keep up and grasp what is being said in the forums, including the endless acronyms)

I didn't think about, I just knew I wanted to immediately live life to the fullest and with the most basic knowledge of ERE felt confident in exchanging less money for more time. We didn't have a big enough nest egg to completely stop working as a couple but that didn't stop me from leaving my career. We had the confidence that we would arrive at a safe future outcome, that life is what you make of it and opportunities always seem to gravitate to us.

So semi-ere wasn't some big analysis or plan....spend less, save what you can, make what you can, repair what you can, live with a softer footprint on the planet.....and of course for me hike, bike, climb, backpack, visit family, visit friends as the goal and to have that the focus of my time not money.

After 8 years of being ok with needing to make money here and there we have achieved full nest egg level ERE, we no longer fit into this discussion. We are now phasing out of the Semi-ERE mindset phase, work will stop and then after that with full FI the time spent making money will be from the passive systems we have built.

[daylen]

has your experience been that mini-careers/employment follow a thread of continuity with regard to previously placed puzzle pieces? Wondering if there’s a “continuation of skill” as discussed upthread.

My tutoring experience bleeds into any conversations I have with humans/AI through better explanations and relating material to various interests. Food service work continues at home as ongoing experimental cooking ventures. Farm and greenhouse work supply biological/ecological case studies, intimacy with various aesthetics, and blending with primitive survival. Cleaning is on the cutting edge of the entropic battlefield where dust bunnies are slain in vain out of the main. Having a bit of fun here but lifelong story short is.. math is everywhere and the universe is ever so elusive of its grasp.

[7Wannabe5]

the INTJ/INTP/ISTJ types also checks all 3 in terms of "dissatisfaction with standard options", "vision to see alternatives", and "ability to follow a plan all the way out". Whereas other types might only hit 0, 1, or 2 of these in which case FI is not pursued.

I disagree with your type extension, because unless towards INTJ cusp, ISTJ is far too conventional to have vision to see alternatives, and INTP is far too spacey/abstract/diffused to have ability to follow a plan all the way out. Also, I think you may be more describing those found sitting at the “good students” table than the full spectrum of nerds. Of course, I would rate nerdiness more on library records, and almost every INFP and ENTP I know is more of a book person than most ISTJs. I mean some ISTJs don’t even read for pleasure, although they almost always get gold stars for fine penmanship.

However, I do agree that there is no type besides INTJ that is likely to very well fulfill all three. For example, as an xNtP my ability to straightforwardly follow a plan all the way out is lousy to terrible, because I am likely to both want to take every side path and desire to include all types in the march to the sea. OTOH, I immediately recognized ERE to be a valid plan or interesting box of tinker toys.

[jacob]

Of course, I would rate nerdiness more on library records, ...

... which is not how it's "rated" or defined in pretty much every link and argument I've presented so far.

Also, in terms of "fulfill", I had hoped it was clear that this is not/never a black/white binary argument. Think probabilities and likelihoods!

[zbigi]

Most types can "understand" a plan, especially if they're walked through it. It's more that most people won't accept a plan on its own merits if the plan contradicts their rules, conventions, habits, feelings, "common sense", etc. They'll go right back to ignoring the plan after the argument/explanation is over.

But there are a few types who when being exposed to better logic will proceed to replace or reform their own logic and do so contrary to rules, conventions, habits, feelings, "common sense", etc. INTJs in particular are notorious for this.

I remember that when I was six or seven, I was rebelling against having to undress myself and making my bed before going to sleep. So I slept in my clothes on and in a sleeping bag on an unmade bed for a couple of nights, until my Mum finally concluded that I'm not just going to stop doing that by myself (as I was quite happy with my "rationalisation") and intervened, putting an end to it.

[7Wannabe5]

Think probabilities and likelihoods!

Gotcha. Yes, I agree that INTJ, ISTJ, and INTP are the three types most likely to hand in their homework on time and receive 100% score. The INTP will spend 5 minutes on the assignment, answer the last two bonus points theoretical questions correctly, skip the boring rote work unless helping an ISTJ study buddy or an ESTJ study bully, and some probability won't bother to turn it in. The ISTJ will spend 50 minutes on the assignment, and then call up an INTJ or INTP to check on the answers before turning it in. The INTJ will spend 10 minutes on the assignment, answer all the questions correctly, and also remember to turn it in on time.

Wow! Lightbulb moment! All I have to do is get an ISTJ study buddy or an ESTJ study bully and I'm golden on achieving FI!

Hmmm...I forgot, I actually already tried that, and the results were not quite as I imagined.

[guitarplayer]

The INTP will spend 5 minutes on the assignment, answer the last two bonus points theoretical questions correctly, skip the boring rote work unless helping [...] an ESTJ study bully

jesus I got a flashback to primary school.

The way attempt to hack following a plan is I here-and-now try to do things that I think my future self will find handy as they stumble upon them. As it is a matter of fact that I regularly zone out for extended periods of time, I forget these things and later find them as external 'gifts' from past me. This is my version of following a plan. I also think this approach is maybe what contributes to intuitive problem solving, or the workings of intuitive problem solving in my case at least. It relies on having a framework so there I find resources such as ere book or stoic stuff handy, but also many others. At the same time, the framework is so obvious to me that when I talk about it people can be very surprised or disoriented by the high level view, or it just flies over their heads.

[7Wannabe5]

It relies on having a framework so there I find resources such as ere book or stoic stuff handy, but also many others.

Yes, this. Towards what I meant with my kid in bilingual household analogy. I have never been entirely operating under the framework of "ERE", although it has been towards newer-more-central for the last 11 years. And this is different than simply being occupied with other large life tasks such as raising a family or completing a graduate degree. To put it in overly simplistic terms, I've been at least as engaged in the framework of Permaculture Philosophy/Practice as "ERE" over most of the last 11 years. There is a further analogy to polyamory I could develop here, but won't.