The eldercare thread

[chenda]

I chose to remember Gene Hackman as he died in The Poseidon Adventure.

+1

[Laura Ingalls]

Here is the email I got recently siblings labeled a, b, c for privacy and impartiality. Thought my real name is not Laura.

To: A, B, C
Thank you for joining me in discussion about the future of my land and property.
It is good to have ideas from those who will ultimately be affected by my decisions.
These are the decisions I have come to make.
Concerning the land I have made the following decisions.
The property will be divided into equal thirds, on the map, there will be 2 lines dividing the land into 3 equal segments. The south segment will be designated to be willed to C, the middle segment will be designated to be willed to B, the north segment will be designated to be willed to A.
The house will be purchased by A at a selling price determined by me. The surrounding land required to be had by the house owner for legal purposes will be gifted by me. (This will come from the segment originally meant for A,) When A pays me a reasonable down payment, she/he may take possession of the house in order to make changes needed for his/her family.
I plan to meet with a lawyer who is an expert in estate planning.
I will adjust my will to reflect my wishes.
I will continue to pay taxes on the property as long as I own it.
At the time of my demise, C and B will receive their share of land in entirety.
A will receive the rest of her/his portion not already combined with the house.

The family matriarch

Does it sound fair assuming A pays market value for improvements that constitute a house?

[IlliniDave]

Here is the email I got recently siblings labeled a, b, c for privacy and impartiality. Thought my real name is not Laura.

To: A, B, C
Thank you for joining me in discussion about the future of my land and property.
It is good to have ideas from those who will ultimately be affected by my decisions.
These are the decisions I have come to make.
Concerning the land I have made the following decisions.
The property will be divided into equal thirds, on the map, there will be 2 lines dividing the land into 3 equal segments. The south segment will be designated to be willed to C, the middle segment will be designated to be willed to B, the north segment will be designated to be willed to A.
The house will be purchased by A at a selling price determined by me. The surrounding land required to be had by the house owner for legal purposes will be gifted by me. (This will come from the segment originally meant for A,) When A pays me a reasonable down payment, she/he may take possession of the house in order to make changes needed for his/her family.
I plan to meet with a lawyer who is an expert in estate planning.
I will adjust my will to reflect my wishes.
I will continue to pay taxes on the property as long as I own it.
At the time of my demise, C and B will receive their share of land in entirety.
A will receive the rest of her/his portion not already combined with the house.

The family matriarch

Does it sound fair assuming C pays market value for improvements that constitute a house?

I'm confused. Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread. I don't understand C's connection to a house. Is there more than one on the property? And if C is improving a part of the property what bearing does whether C accomplishes it below, at, or above market value have on things?

Other than that, it sounds reasonably "fair" assuming the land is relatively equal (i.e., the south part isn't a swamp or something like that). I'm also assuming the family matriarch's goal is to be "fair" in the sense of bequeathing equal value to A, B, and C, although she's not obligated to do so. Technically A is purchasing the land directly under the structure which presumably isn't much, but the rest of the north portion is being gifted or bequeathed. And similar to what I said about C, it shouldn't matter whether A accomplishes improvements above or below market rate once they take possession. The only wrinkle I see is you mention a down payment on the house. Is there a plan for how things would proceed if the estate is executed before the house is completely paid for? Typically the balance would continue to be paid by A to the estate and distributed in accordance with how the matriarch's financial assets would be distributed, unless A will be taking out a mortgage from a lender and paying the full purchase price at the time of sale.

[Laura Ingalls]

I had a mistake and accidentally called person A person C in one point. Just one house, septic, water, electrical connection. B and C chunks are a mix of ag land and junky woodland (ie not especially attractive and no real logging potential or anything of that ilk).

B’s chunk is the best ag land.

A will have no ag land initially and would get his/her chunk at death (the portion behind the existing house) and boxed in by B.

C’s section is probably the least valuable but the most aesthetically pleasing.

[Henry]

Looks like MeeMaw has been watching Succession.

[7Wannabe5]

Since this is clearly a variant of a "cut-the-cake" problem, one way to resolve it fairly might be to do a series of trial rounds of "pick a piece." IOW, if we call the siblings A, B, and C, would each one of them be equally happy with E.F. or G pieces of land under the described terms OR would each of them be most happy with the particular piece they will receive under the current terms, since the variations in the land and associated terms make the pieces of land non-identical much like a cake cutting inclusive of a corner piece with more frosting, a piece with a plastic Barbie ornament on it, and a piece with 3 jellybeans on it.

Trial Rounds Order of Pick

A,B,C
C,B,A
B,A,C
C,A,B
A,C,B
B,C,A

Alternatively, the cake cut could be made in such a way that completely random distribution of the pieces would make all parties engaged equally happy or unhappy, but this would not be the model/method likely to promote greatest overall utility. For example, this model would more likely default to third party sale of entire property with cash proceeds to be equally divided among siblings. Therefore, the sibling or siblings least likely to prefer this default solution might want to sweeten the pot, recut the cake under above model, until more complex division providing greater overall utility under terms to be both fair and equitable is achieved. IOW, the sibling likely to derive the most benefit from cash sale is also the sibling with the most power to make the other sibling(s) regret choosing piece/terms requiring further commitment.

Anyways, that's how I see it, but perspectives may certainly differ.

[chenda]

There was an Irish tradition whereby the oldest son would divide up the estate and the youngest son would choose who got which slice, thereby incentivising the oldest son to be as fair as possible.

My mother put this into practice when my sister and I had to divide a cake or dessert between us. I would divide, dear sister would choose. Which I always felt unfair as she ended up getting the bigger half. And anyone who tells you you can't have a bigger half has clearly never tried to split a slice of cake in half.

[Henry]

There was an Irish tradition whereby the oldest son would divide up the estate and the youngest son would choose who got which slice, thereby incentivising the oldest son to be as fair as possible.

This sounds like a regional European compromise reached after a drunken St. Patrick's Day brawl between two brothers over primogeniture. Makes me think of the ratings if William and Harry went this route. Have Catherine and Megan parade around like strippers carrying round cards. Charles torn by alliance. Their kids screaming for their fathers to beat up their uncles. I'd bet on Harry with all that pent up bastard ginger rage. Not sure what this has to do with eldercare but I honestly think it's a good idea. Better than reading a whiny ass book about it.

[Laura Ingalls]

Looks like MeeMaw has been watching Succession.

I think so. She has a clear favorite and is in denial about it.

There is a tendency to fetishized the land and house. There is a very narrow view of my dad’s legacy. At the end of the day my legacy from my dad is my resilience, creativity, thrift, and the ability to give near “zero” fucks. Anyway.

[Henry]

Hopefully you'll get the prized Hummel.

[Laura Ingalls]

Hopefully you'll get the prized Hummel.

I don’t know. Frankly it reminds me more of King Lear. Thanks for humor injections I needed it.

[chenda]

Makes me think of the ratings if William and Harry went this route.

A sort of more slapstick version of the apprentice, live streamed on amazon prime. Hosted by Piers Morgan with 'don't leave me this way' by the communards for the closing credits.

[Henry]

The undercard could be the Ingalls siblings fighting over Grandpa Jed's moonshine recipes. Of course Piers would have to explain the Hillbilly tradition of eye gouging so no one accuses Jethro of breaking any types of rules when Ellie Mae gets off the mat with her optic nerves exposed.

[Western Red Cedar]

It is a little hard to say for certain, but the division doesn't sound particularly unfair. I'll be in a similar situation one day, and unfortunately there isn't always a clean way to divide land equitably, particularly if there are structures and/or certain attractive natural features in the entirety.

There is a tendency to fetishized the land and house. There is a very narrow view of my dad’s legacy. At the end of the day my legacy from my dad is my resilience, creativity, thrift, and the ability to give near “zero” fucks. Anyway.

My advice is to not stress about it. Each parcel sounds like it has some intrinsic value. If you end up spending time or building on the land, having good relationships with your neighbors is extremely valuable. Good relationships with your siblings even more so. You are already living a great life based, in part, on the legacy you described above. No need to stress over a few shillings.

[Laura Ingalls]

The undercard could be the Ingalls siblings fighting over Grandpa Jed's moonshine recipes. Of course Piers would have to explain the Hillbilly tradition of eye gouging so no one accuses Jethro of breaking any types of rules when Ellie Mae gets off the mat with her optic nerves exposed.

We have household term/inside joke to describe cobbled together jerryrigged things. They are Clampetty ie made my Jed Clampet. Many of my dad’s projects while functioning fine are upcycled mismatched Clampetty looking affairs.

After this ongoing mess I might need some moonshine though I tend to think of my self as a beer girl.

[Laura Ingalls]

It is a little hard to say for certain, but the division doesn't sound particularly unfair. I'll be in a similar situation one day, and unfortunately there isn't always a clean way to divide land equitably, particularly if there are structures and/or certain attractive natural features in the entirety.



My advice is to not stress about it. Each parcel sounds like it has some intrinsic value. If you end up spending time or building on the land, having good relationships with your neighbors is extremely valuable. Good relationships with your siblings even more so. You are already living a great life based, in part, on the legacy you described above. No need to stress over a few shillings.

Thanks for the kind words. The part that makes me sad is that my mom seems like she feeds the antagonist and competitive nature of my relationship with my one brother. I also feel that this family meeting we had last week was purely performative in nature. She had her mind made up already

At the end of the day you are right but right now I would like to see brother try the country life and find out it not what he thought. Most of the fond memories his crew has there are a result of the weekends they spent at my folks when their kids were small and my folks watched the kids and did all the cooking. That ship has sailed.

[Henry]

We have household term/inside joke to describe cobbled together jerryrigged things. They are Clampetty ie made my Jed Clampet.

As my knowledge about Hillbilly culture has increased over the 50 plus years since I first watched the show, I have learned that the last thing Jed Clampett would have done after discovering oil on his land is to move his family to Beverly Hills.

[Laura Ingalls]

Update
Actually walked the proposed lines.

Section C has no existing access to the road and building a driveway would require extensive culvert and grading and then still does not allow non-walking access to the ag land in the back

Section B is clearly the best and the only way to access C and the back 1/3s of A.

Section A has the house (which party A is supposed to pay market value for). And the early. The rub with A is if B or C buy out the out each other A has parcel that has limited ag or recreational value and zero buyers other than the current owner of the combined B/C.

[Henry]

the proposed lines.

Maybe I'm guilty of profiling a bit here, but I always thought these situations were resolved with a few warning shots fired over personal insults referencing bottom feeding rascallian animal life indigenous to whatever part of Appalachia you find yourself bickering in.

If the three of yous are successful in bastardizing the real estate as described above, it will be encumbered with easements, set backs, and convoluted property lines that will cause a drunken Jethro to pass out in the middle of another sibling's block and lot number every early morning he stumbles home from The Stripper Emporium which you hopefully no longer work at. You don't subdivide unless the sum of the parts nets out than more the whole. I don't know the land use laws where you live, but what was on the books when your greatgrandaddy Billy Bob Wayne Dale Slim Pickens Ingalls claimed the land by having his kin encircle him while taking a public dump on it, have probably changed since the time of claim by public shitting sufficed. When the three Ingalls siblings are long gone, people will be saying how much inbreeding and moonshine caused this idiotic clan to sub-divide a property that decreased the aggregate value, useable acreage, utility and resale value of the property. Someone will come along and try to Humpty Dumpty it back together again.

My suggestion: each stakeholder hires an independent appraiser to determine value and agrees that the average of the three appraisals is market value. If the three Ingalls cannot resolve which sibling buys the land and which two each get a 1/3 of the proceeds, then it goes to market and sold to a third party. Otherwise, the only place I see this going is to the law offices of Atticus Finch, which of course, plays into MeeMaw's sheer sadistic twinkle in her glass eye delight.

[ffj]

@Laura

Holy easement nightmare. Do the other two kids even want parcel's B and C? Over the money I mean? Kid A ideally should get first option to buy out B and C but I don't know if that is financially possible.

Or you could sell the whole farm, sans the house, and divide the money equally three ways. Kid A buys the house outright with a bit of land.

Lots of options but while Mom is still kicking this probably needs to be figured out sooner rather than later. Rarely does drawing some arbitrary lines on a plot plan constitute parity.