Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

[Hristo Botev]

The cravings the first day were brutal, but another thing I came across is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LUm51Z-Ii0 in which Nikki Glaser talks about quitting alcohol by reading a book.

Hey! I just finished reading this book! And I read it based on seeing the same interview. IIRC, this is effectively how I quit smoking years ago, after trying for years. DW got pregnant with our first and, overnight, something switched in my mind where I saw cigarettes as something that would prevent me from spending time with grandkids and something that could harm DW and our unborn daughter. And that was it, just like that I had no desire for cigarettes anymore. I'm just starting to apply this principle to alcohol, but this strikes me as an effective way for someone wired like me to quit something like alcohol: just change your perception about alcohol and eliminate the desire immediately. The book talks abut the physical aspects of the withdrawal symptoms as being the "little monster"; and then everything relating to the brainwashing we all receive from day one about how hard it is to quit, how much "pleasure" and "relaxation" one would miss out on if they didn't drink, etc. as being the "big monster." Recognize that the little monster will die on the vine after only a few days of abstinence, and focus on re-brainwashing yourself to kill the big monster.

I'm not really attempting to get swol, just trying to add a bit of joint strength to establish habits for long-term mobility.

I started my strength training journey with Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" book. I'm not necessarily recommending it. @WhiteBelt is the expert on all things strength training. But I still remember Rippetoe's great introduction in that book, where he talks (hyperbolicly) about how strength is THE most important thing in life, and how strength training now ensures you will be able to get on and off the toilet by your own power in older age for as long as possible. That's probably the only reason one needs for strength training; that's why I do it, as it certainly isn't for aesthetics.

. . . and for your daughters to shack up with older French trust-fund men who own sailboats or Vegas based hip-hop video producers.

Oof, we've got a friend down here, a high school friend of DW and me (pretty sure just about all of my male friends dated her at some point in middle school or high school). We love her; she's got one of those loud personalities of the kind that I would hate if I hadn't known her for 30+ years. Long story short, she has a daughter in her early 20s who has some rich sugar daddy in his 50s. Mom raged about it for awhile, but eventually surrendered when she realized that she had to accept it or she would no longer have a relationship with her daughter. She still has never met sugar daddy, and I think it is the desire of both mom and sugar daddy that it stay that way. But sugar daddy has paid for several very expensive and luxurious trips for daughter and mom and other family members to go on. So, it's kind of like he is now mom's sugar daddy as well, and for that matter the sugar daddy of mom's current husband and of mom's other two kids.

It is the kind of story that, as a the father of a daughter, scares me to my core.

[Mousse]

It's not just your kid. It's a generational trend that is now well documented.

Would you happen to remember books or articles that dig into the details that you'd recommend? I was recently talking about this topic with my mother, who has friends with grandchildren in their late teens/early twenties who are "failing to launch" or I'm not sure how the phenomenon is called (I didn't have this conversation in English!). Like, many many stories of dropping out of university in the first week or quitting a job after a few days and returning to live home, not doing much for months after. We were reflecting on our own experiences, which both contained hostile colleagues or customers that made us cry more than once on the job in the early days, which... isn't great, to be honest. Hard to recommend. For us, living away from home was too precious to consider going back unless absolutely untenable, so it's difficult to comprehend the mindset, even if we'd like to help the youngsters close to us if we can. Maybe understanding more context would help me, though!

I came across some astounding facts a few weeks ago which said in 1975 over a quarter (28%) of all women in England and Wales were married by the age of 20, over three quarters (77%) were married by the age of 25, and more than 9 in 10 (91%) were married by the age of 30.

Obviously cohabiting partially explains this but I find it absolutely mind-blowing how young married couplings were. Today less than a third of women have ever been married by the age of 30.

That's something I noticed anecdotally while involved in a genealogy project. Great-grandparents and their own parents dying very young, often in their twenties (illness, war, ...), but already married and with children. If they'd followed the trends from a couple of generations later, most of my family wouldn't exist!

[Hristo Botev]

Not to completely highjack @Suo's journal on the generational sub-topic, but I have noticed anecdotally that I saw much more in the way of failure to launch case studies when living in the big city and surrounded by highly educated careerist folks, of the sort that are inclined to be of the helicopter or bulldozer parenting philosophies, then I see since moving back home to my little area of redneck paradise. A lot more people working in their teenage years; a lot more people joining the military right out of high school, and/or getting married or at least getting pregnant and cohabitating. I'm sure there is something to what the academics are seeing as it concerns the generational differences (goodness knows I can see how I share much more in common with older Gen X'ers than with millenials that are closer to my own age), but I also wonder if there isn't some bias in those studies that is necessarily built in because academics are seeing something in their ivory towers with their own families and those of their colleagues, and they overgeneralize their anecdotal experience to a broader population that in fact shares almost nothing in common with them.

[chenda]

Great-grandparents and their own parents dying very young, often in their twenties (illness, war, ...), but already married and with children.

Yes your normally don't have to go back far too find some horrendous family tradagey which would have been once commonplace. And people often quickly remarried after the death of a spouse as they needed a wage earner or child care. If new hubby didn't beat you and earnt a regular wage you were on to a winner. Kinda puts tinder in perspective.

[Hristo Botev]

Yes your normally don't have to go back far too find some horrendous family tradagey which would have been once commonplace. And people often quickly remarried after the death of a spouse as they needed a wage earner or child care. If new hubby didn't beat you and earnt a regular wage you were on to a winner. Kinda puts tinder in perspective.

DW's grandfather, after becoming a widower in his 40s with 5 kids at home: "Father ___, I need to remarry, can you recommend a widow who is a member of the parish?" And that's how DW grew up with an Ecuadorian grandmother, despite DW being of entirely Polish/German/Irish/French descent.

[7Wannabe5]

It is the kind of story that, as a the father of a daughter, scares me to my core.

I'd be more concerned about the cocaine-using son than the gold-digging daughter. At least she would probably have a rational grip on her spread-sheets.

Would you happen to remember books or articles that dig into the details that you'd recommend?

I also wonder if there isn't some bias in those studies that is necessarily built in because academics are seeing something in their ivory towers with their own families and those of their colleagues, and they overgeneralize their anecdotal experience to a broader population that in fact shares almost nothing in common with them.

Yes! The book is "Generations: The Real Difference Between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers, and Silent Generation- and What They Mean for America's Future." by Jean Twenge. It is extremely large data intensive and part of the author's mission with her more data scientist approach is to dispel the mythologies created in other books that were more anecdotal or theory-first in nature. For example, she fairly thoroughly disses and dismisses the cyclical generation theory promoted by prior authors. Her take is that the data largely supports the notion that Technology change has consistently driven Modern culture towards increased Individualism and a Slower Life Trajectory, and these two primary trends have created the cultural generation gaps which will continue to occur relative to the rate of technological change (not in response to major one-time historical events such as 9-11, as also suggested by prior authors on the topic.)

I was kind of surprised by how predictably Gen-X much of my own behavior has been according to the data studies in this book. Likely my belief that I was a bit precocious/unique was just due to the fact I was born in the very first month of the first year assigned to Gen-X, so many of my exact age peers vibed more towards the Boomer if they had older rather than younger siblings. OTOH, how likely is it that I was the only 15 year old female in the U.S. who decided it was time to start having sex after watching young teens Tatum O'Neil and Kristy McNichol compete to lose their virginity in "Little Darlings" (1980) or very similar theme in "Grease" (1978) and the forgotten classic "Sooner or Later" (1979) starring and featuring the music of Rex Smith in which 13 year old Jessie pretends to be 16 because she has crush on 17 year old guitar instructor? "Maybe tomorrow, maybe next year, sooner or later love will appear..." I blame the slew of teen sex movies produced in the late 70s and early 80s on the huge demographic of Boomer men who were in their 20s or early 30s at that juncture. Luckily, now that they are in their 60s and 70s, most of them have moved beyond a penchant for big screen soft teen porn to something more in alignment with their maturity level and advancing technology, although some of their second wives may occasionally wonder why they are continuously searching for Only Fans when their Florida condo has central air???

[suomalainen]

There was a twitter feed and now probably a bluesky feed that does these historical comparisons - "kids these days", "america is going to shit", etc. that has headlines from basically every decade from now until the mid-1800s where someone is bemoaning the same exact thing every decade for at least 15 decades. Point being that perhaps now I am just aging into that demographic that is going to whinge about the thing that someone ten years my elder whinged about ten years ago. Be that as it may, let me whinge some more.

I've been thinking about this in a back-burner sort of way ever since I posted it in the what if you get zeroed thread:

Perhaps I wouldn't feel responsible for being a fallback plan for my kids any more. Perhaps I wouldn't feel like they have some ownership claim on my future years and earning power to supplement their years, their needs, their deficiencies. Perhaps I'd realize that they have just as much agency and opportunity and responsibility as I do to make something of our lives. Perhaps I'd realize that we're all just monkeys and shit happens and any one of us could die at any time for any reason or for no reason and that to fear the future, even when that future contains death, is absurd. Perhaps it would strengthen us as individuals and as a family. Perhaps it would break us - as individuals or as a family.

This ^ is the only challenging part of the question. As to the rest of it - I'd just get to it.

Perhaps this question is really a gut check of whom do you trust to be competent, capable, skillful, resourceful, clever, resilient, driven and yes arrogant enough to rise to the challenge. I, unhesitatingly, trust myself. I guess I don't trust my kids. And the real question is: is that my failing, or theirs?

I really can't stress enough how much of a mind trip being a parent is. For a decade or a little bit more, your kids are so dependent on you. You get trained that you have to do basically everything for them. And then, overnight, you have to change because they change. It is ... extremely hard. I joke with my friends that I'm the parent for my second kid that I should have been for my first kid, and by doing so, I will inevitably learn and be for my third kid what I should have been for my second kid. Who the fuck knows what gravy's kids are gonna get from me when their time comes around. Little kids are just so fucking easy to figure out. They're just dogs. But once they develop their own inner worlds, with the concomitant inability to self-analyze and express that inner world to you, you're just guessing and fucking it up along the way.

In any event, back to the quote - I guess where I've come out is that I don't trust my kids ... to do it the way that I would do it. But that's not the point, is it? They have to figure themselves out and then figure out how to navigate that self through the world that they are experiencing. It's not just that we have different lenses, it's that we have different environments - be they generational or technological or whatever. It's a generational example of never stepping in the same river twice. I shouldn't expect my anecdotal "wisdom" to be all that generalizable in the first instance nor for them to be able to apply it specifically in a useful manner. At best, my experiences can be guideposts that may or may not provide any useful direction; at most, they can provide a starting point - try this first and if it works, great, and if it doesn't, you'll have learned something and can make an adjustment and iterate. The only sticking point is ... how to get them motivated to take that first step?

But then, the question - am I wanting them to take that first step for themselves, or for me? And if it's for me, then I can just adjust my orientation to identify what need of mine I'm trying to address (back to the quote, it's the freedom from worry/responsibility) and just address it myself. Bird parents don't push their kids out of the nest. They just fly off and make a few encouraging calls back to the nest.

[Henry]

There was a twitter feed and now probably a bluesky feed that does these historical comparisons - "kids these days", "america is going to shit", etc. that has headlines from basically every decade from now until the mid-1800s where someone is bemoaning the same exact thing every decade for at least 15 decades. Point being that perhaps now I am just aging into that demographic that is going to whinge about the thing that someone ten years my elder whinged about ten years ago. Be that as it may, let me whinge some more.

I've been thinking about this in a back-burner sort of way ever since I posted it in the what if you get zeroed thread:



I really can't stress enough how much of a mind trip being a parent is. For a decade or a little bit more, your kids are so dependent on you. You get trained that you have to do basically everything for them. And then, overnight, you have to change because they change. It is ... extremely hard. I joke with my friends that I'm the parent for my second kid that I should have been for my first kid, and by doing so, I will inevitably learn and be for my third kid what I should have been for my second kid. Who the fuck knows what gravy's kids are gonna get from me when their time comes around. Little kids are just so fucking easy to figure out. They're just dogs. But once they develop their own inner worlds, with the concomitant inability to self-analyze and express that inner world to you, you're just guessing and fucking it up along the way.

In any event, back to the quote - I guess where I've come out is that I don't trust my kids ... to do it the way that I would do it. But that's not the point, is it? They have to figure themselves out and then figure out how to navigate that self through the world that they are experiencing. It's not just that we have different lenses, it's that we have different environments - be they generational or technological or whatever. It's a generational example of never stepping in the same river twice. I shouldn't expect my anecdotal "wisdom" to be all that generalizable in the first instance nor for them to be able to apply it specifically in a useful manner. At best, my experiences can be guideposts that may or may not provide any useful direction; at most, they can provide a starting point - try this first and if it works, great, and if it doesn't, you'll have learned something and can make an adjustment and iterate. The only sticking point is ... how to get them motivated to take that first step?

But then, the question - am I wanting them to take that first step for themselves, or for me? And if it's for me, then I can just adjust my orientation to identify what need of mine I'm trying to address (back to the quote, it's the freedom from worry/responsibility) and just address it myself. Bird parents don't push their kids out of the nest. They just fly off and make a few encouraging calls back to the nest.

If this is not a billboard for a vasectomy, I don't know what is.

[Biscuits and Gravy]

If this is not a billboard for a vasectomy, I don't know what is.

100%. Even though I know better, I would give anything to have this man’s babies, but he can just shrug off my “easily disrupted womanly instincts” (thanks Victor Hugo for this phrase) and go on his merry way.

[jacob]

100%. Even though I know better, I would give anything to have this man’s babies, but he can just shrug off my “easily disrupted womanly instincts” (thanks Victor Hugo for this phrase) and go on his merry way.

I'm curious how this instinct works, because I never felt the instinct myself. Early on, I thought of having children but only because "that's what people do". However, I also had a mother who spent a career in child care in its many forms and stages and so I had a pretty good idea of what parenting would be like and many reasons and experiences why I would not enjoy that process at all. Add in some DNA-math and the expectation of "child=(jacob+wife+2*random mean regression)/4", the resulting child(ren) would have a high likelihood of being unrelatable (bad for me, bad for DW?, bad for them) was enough to convince me not to. I mean I've encountered the "I wanna have jacob's babies"-drive to which my response was "hell no!" for the aforementioned reasons, albeit in more polite terms. So how does instinct work?

[Biscuits and Gravy]

I experience it as a powerful, sometimes overwhelming drive. It ebbs and flows with age and ovulation. The frustrating part is that it seems totally unswayable by my situation or reason. When I was 28 the instinct was unbearable and even though I was dissatisfied with my marriage, life, and was two months into a new job, I got pregnant. Was riding up the elevator one day at work and life seemed pointless and my body was like “baby me” and my mind was like “fine fuck it, just shut up” and bam, that night, pregananant. I’m turning 37 soon and even though I’ve got five kids and know with complete certainty that I could not handle another child, there seem to be some death throes of this instinct. Suo shuffles into the kitchen to eat some cheese and my ovaries are like “ughhhhhhhhh ffs just impregnate me already.” It don’t make no sense.

[Henry]

I mean I've encountered the "I wanna have jacob's babies"-

I'm sure that has crossed many people's minds as they sat reading your book.

[7Wannabe5]

I would say that the urge or instinct to have a particular man's baby would be somewhere along the spectrum of "being in love with that man" and "wanting to order all of the varieties in the garden catalog in January." Also, if babies are one of your things, you miss having one in your life. Since I know this about myself, I purposefully attempted to switch my maternal drive from babies to gardening when my youngest child was approaching age 6. Still, this didn't stop me from considering going for a third a few years later, even though I was not happily married to my ex. I also semi-seriously considered resorting to medical intervention to have a child with my second "husband" when we were in Honeymoon Phase, but we both eventually came to our senses after working the numbers/logistics.

If "global resource depletion" etc., were not issues, now that I am at the juncture that my kids are adults in their mid 30s, I actually wish that I had more kids-> grandkids. Also, society in general seems to be more of a downer or a drag when there aren't a lot of young humans energetically bringing it forward. Makes me almost want to move to some city in Africa. But, what I do instead is occasionally teach at the nursery school full of low-income and recently immigrated children.

[Biscuits and Gravy]

It’s true I wouldn’t have just any man’s babies, and the instinct to be knocked up by Suo is heightened by the love and attachment I feel for him. Just this week I was fantasizing about a baby, and I noticed that my memory of having an infant is heavily rose-tinted. I hated having infants. They’re the absolute worst. But my mind has glossed over all of that so that I would do it again in a heartbeat. Luckily, my daughter had an asthma attack so I was up every four hours at night administering albuterol and that was enough to remind me of the horrors of night feeding and the impacts of poor sleep. I have kept in mind what you said in my journal, 7, about life seeming pretty random as you grow older, and I’ve kept in mind Hristo’s regret at not having more kids, and I am grateful I have the 2 bios + 3 steps to distract me in my dotage. In the meantime, Suo can reap the benefits of me being baby-crazy without having to pay the 30 year price tag.

[jacob]

I'm sure that has crossed many people's minds as they sat reading your book.

Just as it's crossed enough minds of $TSLA investors. So ...

[Henry]

Elon brings the ruckus. And he is playing the cult leader card with all these kids he's having with multiple women. It gives the illusion of eternal life surrounding him. It's a good business decision. Plus, they'll fill up all the positions in Baron Trump's cabinet.

And this is becoming a pretty entertaining thread. It's like sitting in a room with Kierkegaard knowing his wife is going to burst in at any moment screaming "Soren, I need to get laid."

[7Wannabe5]

I am curious about whether Musk's multiple female partners/baby-moms also have other partners themselves? IOW, is he polygynous or polyamorous? Since, I am currently knocking boots with my polygynous "ex" who would-if-he-could support multiple wives at millionaire-next-door level, and has actually been legally married 4X and non-legally "married" at least twice, I have lately been engaged in some pretty heated debates on the topic of polygyny vs. polyamory. Polygynous men are frequently not made happy by my assertation that the practice is less fair to other men than polyamory. OTOH, I suppose that if humans are willing to freely enter into one-sided polygynous or polyandrous contracts in exchange for FITB, then that should also be their prerogative. Actually, to me, the oddest aspect of Musk's style of reproduction would be the repeated use of nameless compensated surrogates to carry the embryos he created with his young female partners. I suppose that this practice will only go up as more affluent young women have their eggs frozen for later use or do not wish to take pregnancy/maternity break from being in their own more masculine energy.

[chenda]

Elon brings the ruckus.

He's also an aspie high on ketamine. I suspect he'll end up like Cardinal Woolsey.

[suomalainen]

And this is becoming a pretty entertaining thread.

Oh please. My dysfunction has kept you entertained for nigh on a decade.

[Henry]

True. But whoever pushed for the B&G addition needs to be promoted.