AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Where are you and where are you going?
7Wannabe5
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

AE wrote:What I should focus on is simply being present with how I feel and taking the actions I can toward values I care about.
Yes. However, feelings can also be a bit funny sometimes. For example, I didn't know I was feeling "lonely" living all by myself in strange city, because "lonely" didn't feel like I thought "lonely" ought to feel. Sometimes simply making a change for the sake of making a change can bring clarity.

@AH: I smiled at the passion you expressed in your post above. I will reply/write more in my own journal at some juncture, because I don't want to clog up AE's flow with giant bergs of cutnpaste and associated babble.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@AH - It's all good, that's what journal discussions are for. :D For me personally, what I am trying to focus on is moving past this notion that anything will "save" me or be "the truth" because I get outrageously stuck inside my own head, and the inside of my head is not a nice place to be. I think what I really need to do above anything else is just live my life and deal with my emotional hangups.

Which, speaking of emotional hangups, I had that job interview today, and it made me realize just how much of my self-esteem is actually tied up in my career. I actually have been pretty damned miserable at work but I now realize, now that I am without it, that it was my primary social identity and greatest source of self-esteem, and this is problematic for obvious reasons.

I think work invokes an obvious scarcity mindset for me as I have massive unmet needs in the rest of my life and work does meet some of these needs, so it's hard to give up. Like building a social life, while I've had some success here, nothing has really stuck in terms of deep relationships or anything beyond hobby friends. And I am also realizing I have this massive psychic complex about being a freakish outcast where work was the only thing that made me feel like a normal person. So yeah, I think I have my work cut out for me still with my inner and outer life, because otherwise, I am legitimately tempted to go back to work. I think @OutOfTheBlue's post has a lot of wisdom for me to consider.

jacob
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:52 pm
Which, speaking of emotional hangups, I had that job interview today, and it made me realize just how much of my self-esteem is actually tied up in my career. I actually have been pretty damned miserable at work but I now realize, now that I am without it, that it was my primary social identity and greatest source of self-esteem, and this is problematic for obvious reasons.
Compare https://www.sloww.co/ego-development-th ... -stage-3-4, https://www.sloww.co/ego-development-th ... dt-stage-4, and https://www.sloww.co/ego-development-th ... -stage-4-5 Somewhere in [between] those?

It's a path that needs walking...

mythicalman30
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by mythicalman30 »

Congratulations on the unplanned FIRE! I've read all of this thread and you've shown me a lot of what I need to work on in my own life while I try to attain FIRE.

Have you read any of Brene Brown's work? A therapist I had, the first therapist I saw, actually, recommended some of her books to me. I haven't read them yet but I have watched her TED talks and she has a lot to say about emotional intelligence and living true to your own self. I'm actually doing ACT therapy right now with the pain clinic I see to try and learn to accept that life sucks and it's all about prioritizing my values rather than what I think the world thinks I should be doing. It's hard work, but very beneficial!

I really resonate with the fact that your job became your life. I was a Home Support Worker before I was injured at work and I would frequently do 24-hour shifts, take 8 hours off, and go back to work the graveyard shift because they had no one to cover. I was only part-time on paper, but frequently I would be working full-time or more. It was gutting when I was injured and I couldn't do that work anymore. I've floated aimlessly for ten years thinking I can't do anything and that I'm worthless because I can't do anything, and then I had the fortuitous event to meet my current partner who inspired me to go back to school and finish, just so I could say that I was capable. Now, I'm moving on to a bachelor of arts and eventually an education diploma because in my heart I've always been a teacher, and it's something I could see myself doing for the rest of my life even if I never RE. I'm even planning on teaching overseas in between my degrees, even though I never thought it would be something I was capable of doing!

I guess the moral of the story is, yes, you just left a life-consuming, soul-sucking job but there is a whole world out there for you to explore and discover! I believe that you will find your stride yet.

ertyu
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by ertyu »

Once I encountered Brene Brown on a podcast by Russell Brand. They were cheerfully discussing how atheists are evil. This wouldn't prevent a thinking adult from taking what's worthwhile and dismissing the rest, just, anyone approaching her should be prepared to sort out what is baby vs what is bathwater

zbigi
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by zbigi »

@AE seeing that work is so central to your life in many aspects (self-esteem, sense of agency, social) , perhaps you should try to make work "work" for you, instead of trying to look for a replacement? Could be easier. Although in my experience, US software teams are pretty robotic and soulless; there's something about the work culture in the US that is radically different and less pleasant from European work culture in my experience [*]. So maybe the water you swim in, aka your country work's culture, is the thing that is contributing to your depression? I rememeber having a lot of fun across my career (although very little when working for US startups), but I don't remember you mentioning it once in your journal.

[*] Obviously huge variations across Europe as well. Germans and Scandinavians (sans the Finns) are not that much fun either, but at least they don't come from the position of deeply drilled down unconscious anxety of "I need to succeed at this or I'll end up homeless under a bridge" that I think is present in a lot of American workers.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@jacob - A path that needs walking indeed. I am starting to wonder if one can do the equivalent of spiritual bypassing with Kegan levels where one just tries to skip over K3 without fully integrating the lessons of that level. Or if one is in a hostile social environment during those critical years, K3 lessons become more the shadow and less the ego. I'm thinking what I might need to do is be more conscious about my actual needs and how to fulfill them. I grew up in an environment (religious cult) where no one was allowed to have any needs ever (Turn It Off!), and I am wondering if this is now the problem.

For example, I do think I have a need to do something socially useful, and writing banking software is at least a useful task, so this is keeping me trapped here. I think I might need to consider how I can do useful things with other people outside of the employment framework.

@mythicalman30 - Thanks for sharing your story. It's always good to see examples of where people do turn things around and pursue something they are more interested in. I have considered going back to school for something like an Arts degree for the networking connections and the structure, even if I don't specifically need the degree.

Wrt Brene Brown, I have tried to get into her work because she is suggested often, but she was way too crunchy for me to handle. Also as @ertyu mentions, she has this heavily pro-spiritual bias that does not work for me as an atheist and someone who has a lot of what the cool kids are calling religious trauma from aforementioned religious cult upbringing. Indeed, I was reading The Gift of Imperfection, and I was baffled as to how she is as enormously popular as she is because she seems to say exactly nothing at all. I found she wasn't a good fit for the more serious psychological demons I'm battling. ACT has been a better fit because it owns up to the premise that life is difficult right away, and that just clicks with me better.

@zbigi - It's definitely an American work culture problem, although I've found that tech jobs have increasingly enshittified since I started my career. When I started, it wasn't nearly as bad, and I'd go to lunch with coworkers, they'd send us to conferences on the company's dime, we'd have holiday parties, etc.

But the environment has gotten significantly worse in the past few years as companies enshittify. The place I last worked at was particularly horrible. The first two years I was there, it was okay, but we got a new Jack Welsch CEO who wanted to run the employees into the ground and offshore half the team. Really in retrospect, I should have seen the lay off coming sooner, because from day 1 this year the company was doing obvious things to try to make me quit (micromanagement, not giving me any useful work, constant criticism, etc).

And when they layoff did happen, I didn't just directly get laid off, they tried to put me on a PIP that was an obvious exit ticket and I just used my FU money to leave because fuck getting put on a PIP.

I was in the Dutch part of Belgium just last week, and I was a bit taken aback at how just not shitty it was. The streets were clean, they had bicycle lanes everywhere, people seemed actually happy, there were no billboards. America is on the downward swing of late capitalism so I don't expect this problem to get any better, although of course the entire point of ERE is navigating this problem by being creative with your own lifestyle.

In other news, that job I interviewed for yesterday is very likely going to send me a job offer soon. It's for a Deep State government contracting position for 1 year, pays $70/hr, and is fully remote. I am very much considering taking this so I don't have to worry about my overpriced rent this year, plus no roommate, and government + remote means it's not going to be that difficult and then I can figure out the rest of my problems without being stressed over my housing situation.

zbigi
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by zbigi »

Contracts are great in my experience. You're explicitly not a part of the company "family", so much of the drama does not apply to you. You go to less meetings. People see you as less of a threat to their own career paths. There's no HR nonsense (no pointless excercises like planning your career, checking up on past goals, filling out 360 evaluations of people you work with etc.). Also, contract having a set end day makes work much easier to stomach when the going gets tough - "this too shall pass".

7Wannabe5
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It's kind of interesting that we are at a similar juncture from quite different paths. I am slow-mo* deciding between high hourly wage limited term contract tech work vs. lower hourly wage part-time teaching/tutoring the disadvantaged kids. I know it might not be a good fit for an INTJ, but volunteering to lead/teach tech skills to upper high-school aged kids in whatever disadvantaged school district is nearest to you might be a fulfilling outlet. I suggest disadvantaged district, upper-high-school age, and volunteering for something like an after-school or study-hall hour club, because those filters would eliminate the kids most likely to be scaffolded/chauffered-through-affluence, major PITA , or unmotivated.

I would also note that it is my perspective/experience that being/becoming a generalist works for self-esteem/identity much like it does for resilience in changing market/environment (see diagram in "ERE" the book.) The obvious downside being the inherent trade-off between "resilience" and "efficiency" and the general lack of esteem/status in the phrase, "jack of all trades, master of none." Since the entirety of STEM only comprises maybe 1/5 of my generalist costume bag/toy box, focusing on Tech to the extent of earning a grad degree was almost physically painful for me.

Referencing Lobenstine's "The Renaissance Soul", INTJ is almost certainly best matched by The Serial Master variety of scanner/polymath/generalist. So, you may eventually find a fulfilling option in returning to grad school in a field that is different enough to broaden perspective, but not different to the extent that potential for consilience would be strictly limited.

*I am in no hurry due to current lifestyle overhead being less than 1/2 of a Jacob. I have determined that it is super-wasteful for an easy-going frugal core generalist to live alone in her own apartment or maybe even to take on an entirely individualist perspective/philosophy. Having a bunch of simple skills for which most/many people would either require a specialist or resort to comparative advantage is greatly magnified when you share facilities with others. I could likely financially support myself just by putting up a "Tech Help: $20/hr" notice on the Moderately Affluent Senior Complex bulletin board. Although, the "easy-going" would certainly have to come in to play every time I encountered, "Help! My DoorDash has disappeared!"

philipreal
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by philipreal »

I'll admit I haven't read through your previous journal(s), so this is only based off the most recent posts, but I think you should be wary of accepting the position. While it seems like a good gig, it also doesn't seem like it's going to solve the issues you're facing as much as put them off.
It makes me realize just how much the time consuming part of my job combined with all the money was training me to delay all my other goals in life and throw money at problems that are better solved by slowing down and actually doing them the right way.
I have been halfheartedly talking to recruiters and applying for jobs because I was concerned about my housing situation, and my heart really is not in this. I have a job interview tomorrow I am struggling to force myself to prepare for, so this may not really be a solution.
So yeah, I think I have my work cut out for me still with my inner and outer life, because otherwise, I am legitimately tempted to go back to work.
One thing I am trying to remind myself is that I am going to be fine and it's a bigger mistake to panic over a few hundred dollars a month in my budget that will probably go down on its own as I learn to manage things better. Because one thing I have learned through all of this is that it's hard to appreciate how much stress you are under until you are no longer under that stress, and getting my head cleared and adding things into my life that I want into my life is far more important than being miserable over a couple bucks, especially because I do have quite a lot saved. I am also young and I will earn more money if that's what I decide I really want to do. So I think getting to a better mental state and building up my life with freedom-to things that bring me fulfillment is a lot more important than trying to stay EXACTLY inside $3.3k when my situation is fluid and rapidly changing.
It seems like the rent problem can be solved by getting a job and spending more money, or getting a roommate, or just not worrying as much about staying exactly inside $3300, knowing you can always earn some money or be more frugal later. Other than that, it seems like the real things you're trying to tackle will be hindered if you go back to work and its "infinite money." If your self-esteem is largely tied up in your career, and you want that not to be the case, you need to figure out how to untie it, and I wouldn't think going to a new job is going to help that very much.

NewBlood
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by NewBlood »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:37 am
In other news, that job I interviewed for yesterday is very likely going to send me a job offer soon. It's for a Deep State government contracting position for 1 year, pays $70/hr, and is fully remote. I am very much considering taking this so I don't have to worry about my overpriced rent this year, plus no roommate, and government + remote means it's not going to be that difficult and then I can figure out the rest of my problems without being stressed over my housing situation.
Congrats on possibly securing a new job this fast, very impressive and it speaks to your "marketability" and your ability to get a job quickly if/when you need it. Maybe just knowing that can help alleviate some of your fears?
Govt positions can vary a lot, but I found working in public service meaningful overall. And yes, govt + remote is a nice situation.

Whether you decide to take this one or not, given your mental health struggles, would having a roommate help you get out of the funk when you find yourself low or would it be an additional drain on your energy?

An unexpected change in job situation + trying to sell a house + moving to a new place is a lot to deal with at once. It's only been a couple of months and it's totally understandable you're feeling burned out and experiencing anxiety.

It sounds like either taking the new job for now, or getting a roommate would help reduce your anxiety but might not give you space to fully decompress. Maybe a year with inflated expenses wouldn't be too bad to allow you to regain some brain space and figure out who you are without a job. At the end of your lease, you can always reassess or change your housing situation.

Jin+Guice
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by Jin+Guice »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:26 pm
For the individual, yes.
Oh! You meant collectively as a theory? I gotchu now.



@AE:

Are you able to get your financial expenditure within your desired WR without a job or roommate?




I am currently obsessed with needs. I think WL6 is about figuring out what your needs are now that you are free of a job. There was a time when working meant freedom from my family as well and it was at first heartbreaking and then stressful as I realized that I'd simply traded one master for one slightly less shitty master (and I got to work in fields that I supposedly liked, one of which is supposedly fun). Underneath that though, I think there is often a fear that if you don't have a job or, more generally, DO SOMETHING, that somehow your escape will be taken away from you. Personally I would rather live under a bridge than go back home (see experimenting with being homeless in my early 20s to prove to myself this was a viable option).

The very difficult task you must conquer now is accepting that you don't have to do anything. Aside from the massive trauma you suffered in a religious cult as a child and a society that teaches us that our only value is our job, I don't think people are hardwired to existentially believe that if they don't do anything their physiological needs will be met. For most of us, this takes years of actual experience.

That's all freedom from stuff though. Finding freedom to means taking the space you've created for yourself and learning to listen to your internal voice again. What actually sparks joy in your day? What have you made off limits to yourself that you actually need or want? What are you doing out of (often made up) obligation?

ertyu
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by ertyu »

My 2c: the CAPE rn is insane. Take the job. Don't pull the plug at the top of the stock mkt only to find yourself 40% down in 2 years (this is the estimate I've seen bandied about of how overvalued the stock market is compared to "fair value").

jacob
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by jacob »

ertyu wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 3:33 am
My 2c: the CAPE rn is insane. Take the job. Don't pull the plug at the top of the stock mkt only to find yourself 40% down in 2 years (this is the estimate I've seen bandied about of how overvalued the stock market is compared to "fair value").
On the flip side, if the market were to drop to fair (average CAPE?) value, the argument would be along the lines of "don't pull the plug, look at how the market is crashing". If so, this suggests finding another investment strategy that doesn't depend as much on fair value vs current price.

Moving out of the salaryman quadrant and learning to deal with the fact that income is no longer a regular paycheck is a big one.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@J+G - I relate to what you're saying and the job is definitely a safety issue for me emotionally. Some of this may also be influenced by my status as a single woman/sexual minority (and also growing up poor with no social support) in that I am hyper aware that I have no one else to support me if I can't support myself financially and the list of downsides for financial ruin for someone in my situation is a long one. This is clearly an emotional issue and a fear-based issue so I think I am going to have to spend some time exploring this.

I think what I am learning from this experience is that my actual plan for how to make this work is low on practical details and that is my problem. Again, maybe a sign I should refocus on some basics and take a step back from planning at too high of a level.

I'm also wondering, once again, if my mental health issues are more than I can cope with and if I really should just go see a professional therapist. I've been putting off therapy because finding an actually good therapist is a task in and of itself and the bill can be damned expensive but I have been spinning over the same problems for years and might need some better tools to deal with it.

@ertyu/jacob - I am actually very concerned about the markets right now and the problem is made worse by the fact I now have actual money to lose (my NW is nearing $1mm and I just sold my condo for $300k in cash that I now don't know what to do with). The conventional FIRE advice of "put it in an index fund bro" is starting to sound unappealing in this market. My investing strategy is something I really need to put more effort into.

7Wannabe5
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

AE wrote: Some of this may also be influenced by my status as a single woman/sexual minority (and also growing up poor with no social support) in that I am hyper aware that I have no one else to support me if I can't support myself financially and the list of downsides for financial ruin for someone in my situation is a long one. This is clearly an emotional issue and a fear-based issue so I think I am going to have to spend some time exploring this.
Actually spending some time literally exploring this might also prove useful. "Becoming a baglady" fears are very common and often more linked to status than survival, although they may feel more like a matter of survival. We all have fears that may be more or less rational. My top fear approximates, "Something terrible happens to somebody I love and it is my fault or I could have done something to prevent it.", but if I can't release this control mechanism, I will thoroughly deplete myself in my efforts to prevent this from happening. I have to sit with the reality that terrible things over which I have no control will happen to the people that I love or eat every last muffin in the bakery to distract myself from facing this fear. I have less access to my internal feminine sensitivity(Fi) as opposed to sensibility (Fe), so have to focus more to come to realization such as terrible things might happen to the someone I love who is future me if I eat every last muffin in the bakery. My point here not being that Fe is selfless and Fi is selfish, but rather that the fear that nobody will take care of you is essentially the same as the fear that you can't take care of everybody. So, if you can easily see my fear as irrational and counter-productive then you can also with some effort come to see your own fear as irrational and counter-productive.

I mean it is true that other people suck, but they really don't suck as hard as you think they do. Seriously, maybe do an experiment pretending like you are a baglady for a day or a week. The abundance of your own internal resourcefulness and also the generousity of others might surprise you. Although, it will also likely be true that you will be like, "Mmmmm, I really, really, love my warm apartment and full fridge." by the end of the experiment, and then you might also think, "And I love myself for taking such good care of myself with this warm apartment and full fridge. Go me!" Or you could also do the opposite behavioral experiment which would be random acts of kindness and generousity. People suck, but sometimes you can create a warm flow between you that will lift all the boats and balloons. I mean, Oprah does okay as an ENFJ, although she does also suffer a bit from the muffin problem, which let me tell you is practically an epidemic among women who teach young disadvantaged kids.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@7W5 - I think you misunderstand me. I actually don't think people suck, in fact I have found most people have been quite generous toward me, and my default belief is that most people will be friendly toward you if you are friendly toward them. (Although I will admit I sometimes struggle feeling like I "deserve" to "take up space") What I mean is that as a single woman/lesbian, I find myself in what one might call the "male provider" position more often than not. Certainly, it could be a growth opportunity to learn how to occupy another role than "breadwinner" but it is what I am most familiar/comfortable with and there is certainly fear in the uncertainty of not playing a role I know how to play and I am socially rewarded for.

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Ego
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by Ego »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2024 2:28 pm
I find myself in what one might call the "male provider" position more often than not. Certainly, it could be a growth opportunity to learn how to occupy another role than "breadwinner" but it is what I am most familiar/comfortable with and there is certainly fear in the uncertainty of not playing a role I know how to play and I am socially rewarded for.
From afar, it seems logical that flying directly from sea level to Shangri-la would cause problems. There may be benefits to gradually climbing the mountain. Would your mind benefit from acclimatization before ascending to the top?

Would it be possible to look for a goldilocks job that ...
1. provides just enough income to cover some expenses, eliminating some of the fears of total wipeout...
2. while satisfying the male provider role....
3. and doing something you find social, interesting, enjoyable or want to learn?

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@Ego - I think there is wisdom in that certainly. It's the whole "better integrate work into your web of goals" approach. I'm not sure I even plan on quitting work forever either, as I think it can be a significant way to engage with the community (provided one can actually find the right job for this).

The contracting role I got the offer for actually isn't bad from this approach because it:
1. Is remote (so I'm not commuting) but also has a branch office in Denver (so my coworkers don't turn into total screen abstractions)
2. Would involve learning more about financial markets (a significant todo item on my wog)
3. Involves getting a security clearance (massive benefit for finding other jobs)
4. Coworkers/social environment seemed much more chill/fun than the deathgrind corporate jobs
5. I am a contractor so it's easier to not let this become my identity/life as @zbigi mentioned

ertyu
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Re: AE's Adventures in Accidental FIRE

Post by ertyu »

I vote take the job, go to actual therapy, work on whatever you're hitting that's stopping you from letting go of the job, decide whether to quit again in the future. To me, you've encountered, "I thought I was ready to quit but it turns out I'm not." This actually isn't a failure: you've unearthed things you need to address/work on. At this stage, it doesn't matter whether these things are factual/material or emotional: this distinction only matters when you're at the stage where you're considering strategies to deal with whatever there it is.

A therapist might help over what you yourself are able to do because external validation matters. We're social animals. If you're in the general vicinity of neurotypical (not speaking for autistic people because I simply don't know if it still holds), some semblance of being heard and validated on regular intervals by someone who has your best interests at heart can do wonders for one's existential terror (I do believe most therapists are genuine idealists, do in fact have your best interests at heart, and find helping people sort shit out inherently meaningful - INFP gang represent :muscle: ).

One thing to watch out for is, often a therapist can't take you further than they've gone: so if all this talk about you wanting to work towards the inner peace to quit your job in your 30s triggers their unconscious anxieties, this might bleed through in their attitude, even in ways that aren't explicit, and limit how validating their validation actually feels. Even so, I think if you can afford it (which you will be able to with the new job), it's a good idea to try.

I'd personally put the 300k in a CD, take the job, go to therapy, sort out all moving etc logistics gradually, and pull the plug at the bottom of the next recession.

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