Yields and Flows - Level 5 towards 6

[IlliniDave]

Will note that complexity is not an issue when the system is in place. See e.g. walking: easy for humans age 1 and up. Hard for a robot.
The hard thing about complexity is building it or rebuilding it insofar it can't be copied from others.

Yeah, I was thinking about that on the way home from work (happened to be thinking about cooking rather than walking), though It seems to me we're all limited by native aptitude. To extend the analogy of physical activities, playing a guitar is a system of very simple individual movements but a lot of people are very limited in how far they can go with it, even some who spend a lot of time working on it. It's complex but not all that complicated for a human mind.

Redundancy is good but it has a cost, and that's a lot of what I'm weighing. Once I check out I'll probably have about 25 years left, give or take, and some fraction of those will come with decreased physical capacity. I look at my brainstorming lists of all the activity/skills I thought interesting and/or worthwhile to pursue and realize with the constraint of finite time, breadth will come at the expense of depth, and vice-versa. In other words, do I want to be a generalist to whatever extent I can, or put all my energy into the subset that interest me the most?

Sitting here today I'm inclined to favor the latter (five years ago I would have said the former), which has me rethinking what's the best way to weave money into the equation. Age and relative availability of money are factors in how that thinking has evolved. Renaissance Man versus Man of Productive Leisure is maybe the distinction I'm trying to make.

The hazards of showing up to ERE ~2/3 of the way through life already.

[7Wannabe5]

I look at my brainstorming lists of all the activity/skills I thought interesting and/or worthwhile to pursue and realize with the constraint of finite time, breadth will come at the expense of depth, and vice-versa. In other words, do I want to be a generalist to whatever extent I can, or put all my energy into the subset that interest me the most?

Sitting here today I'm inclined to favor the latter (five years ago I would have said the former), which has me rethinking what's the best way to weave money into the equation. Age and relative availability of money are factors in how that thinking has evolved. Renaissance Man versus Man of Productive Leisure is maybe the distinction I'm trying to make.

Interesting, because we are the same age, and I have recently come around to the same, yet opposite, perspective. Instead of continuing to attempt to strait-jacket myself into focusing on just 1 or 2 or 5 objectives/projects/interest towards mega-mastery, I am giving myself free rein to attempt as many micro-masteries as I like while rationally acknowledging that 500 X 100 hours is about all that I've got left in me.

[IlliniDave]

It's definitely something we all should tailor to ourselves. Right now I don't even think of it as gaining mastery or accomplishments, although some of that may occur. I also see it as a freedom thing: rather than running myself ragged trying to keep too many irons in the fire, or feeling frustrated because I keep falling behind the schedule required for an overly ambitious to-do list, I'm trying to determine what is important and freeing myself to pursue those things to my heart's content. Also, as I hatch plans I'm trying to limit myself to only looking a few years ahead at a time. As things unfold it's likely that new interests will catch my attention, while some of the "old" ones will run their course and fade. I make it an annual exercise to take some time during the year end holidays to contemplate such things, and expect more than one or two changes in course along the way.

[7Wannabe5]

@IlliniDave:

I think we are at similar juncture in the "all roads lead to Dublin" sense. I was trying to stretch myself to something like 7 year SMART goals, and have now realized that led to more sunk cost loss than gain through focused efficiency. For simple instance, I did not anticipate that my DD24 would have purchased her own little house and garden by the time she became my DD28, and therefore that it would be more likely that many aspects of the "cottage" portion of my ideal lifestyle, the Adventure (Ne) Cottage (Fe, Si) Library (Ti), would take place there with myself as mobile human rather than vice-versa. IOW, I did not anticipate such a swift role progression from one who roasts the turkey to one who arrives early to help bake the pies.

OTOH, it's much more relaxing, and ultimately productive, for me to have the freedom to flit from project to project, especially since they often do end up blending together eventually. For example, Taleb's program towards erudition which is something like have a lot of very good books at hand, read one until you get stuck or bored, switch to another book, do this for 30 hours/week, instantly appealed to me, and has worked very well* for me when I have the luxury of that many hours with no need to work or humor other humans who are bothering me. So, I am now applying the same protocol to my projects, some of which are "just" reading.

* I actually found that I could readily digest increasingly dense works by this approach, because I was free to intersperse with light reading. For instance, it is easier for me to read a book on the topic of Surreal Numbers while I also have a history of panics in the stock market, and a novel about a middle-aged woman moving to Italy and having a torrid affair with her young gardener at hand.

[Jin+Guice]

@Redbird:
Thanks for starting this thread, it would've been hard for me to start a thread this beneficial to me, no matter how hard I was trying . I just reread the whole thread and it's very helpful for where I'm at right now.


I thought about making this post a journal post, but I think it belongs here.

The examples were really helpful to me. The examples helped me see the map. A journey isn't made by looking at a map, but having a map makes the journey (and perhaps even choosing a destination) easier.

It's clear to me that I need to shift my conscious efforts from level 5 optimizing for money towards level 6. If I was going to sharpen my mind through emergency, I'd quit my current job, but I'm not feeling that daring yet.

Helpfully, my ideas about semi-ERE are (I think) level 6 ideas, but I was viewing them through level 5 eyes.

A personal challenge for me will be figuring out how music fits into my web of goals. I spend A LOT of time doing different music bullshit and I'm not sure my yield is high enough to continue doing this. I have some bad habits and ego attachment from my former life to contend with in this realm. I need level 6 thinking to deal with this problem because money has never been the only goal, but without a solitary easily measurable goal, what to optimize for?

Something that's occurred to me through thinking about this is that leveling up at higher levels may cause one to spend more money. @c_L demonstrated this in his example about changing cellphone plans. The caveat here is that, in most cases, it wouldn't be a lot more money and if you don't understand why, it's probably a good idea to keep focusing on spending less money. Maybe this is also a reason why sub-Jacob level spending is rare. If one devotes their life to optimizing for the lowest expenditures it's possible to beat Jacob, but in following the thinking to get there, one realizes that this is pointless.

I like the breaking down of the Wheaton Scale further into different ways of thinking with moats around them. I can see that going from 5-6 does require a change in thinking. Personally I started between 4-5 and I now feel that I'm between 5-6 so I haven't had to cross a moat yet. I think levels 6+ are what separates ERE from the rest of FIRE.

I think that starting Wheaton Level also has some impact on the journey. I started between 4-5. I'm not really sure I can say I've progressed a full level yet, much less crossed a moat.

I agree that it's hard to make a sales pitch for even level 6 considering you need to be at least at level 4 to understand why it might be desirable. I also agree with @c_L's observation that if you base your sales pitch on level 4-5 your going to create a lot of level 4-5 people who may be resistant to going higher, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (if you assume that average person is 0-1).

I think being lazy in an absolute sense and curious in an intermediate sense makes going beyond level 5 appealing.

[7Wannabe5]

but without a solitary easily measurable goal, what to optimize for?

Do it like you adjust all the different levels in the recording studio until you optimize "good."

[Jin+Guice]

@7w5, that's probably the best one sentence description of how to mix a record I've ever read.

Now my own sound engineer nerd analogy:

Wheaton 5: Make all of this instruments sound good by themselves (while soloed)
Wheaton 6: Make each individual song sound good
Wheaton 7: Make the album as a whole sound good (this is literally called "mastering")

This analogy is kind of a kick in the dick to level 5, because it's 101 stuff that optimizing every instrument will definitively not work for the song.

[sodatrain]

I really like @JP's leap of faith argument. I think that, coupled with having enough life energy (from a YMOYL standpoint) to work on something that doesn't have a direct, obvious, or immediate yield (ie space and time delays) are critical. IOW a surplus of life energy is needed (or at least preferred so you don't pull from other sources) to take this leap of faith. Each person's allocation of life energy is different. Full time job + human maintenance + family/social maintenance takes most of it from many people. That can make it hard to invest more into something without being able to visualize the hard results. So something has to give. Maybe that is what @Redbird is intuitively feeling?. Things like choosing process orientation vs goal orientation can be part of the answer. Having the ability to stop full time work seems to be helping in my personal case. I'm sure there are many more.

oh! this really resonates. I've been contemplating my WL and trying to be more mindful about advancing it. I have a few things brewing, which I'll post about soon in other threads, but this comment about life energy really helped some things click.

I have pretty easy access to well paying work. I just took several months of work off after getting laid off. My stress levels were relatively low, feeling confident I could find work that pays pretty well pretty easily. It turned out to be harder than expected, but still not horrible. All too easy to dip into comparative advantage mode.

I am currently thinking that I need to take the plunge (leap of faith) and quit working my career job, despite not being FI and focus on SemiERE. I've felt for a while that I am so unmotivated after working even 4 hours of my current work per day. It has the 'soul sucking' sort of feeling. It's pretty easy remote/desk/tech work that pays well. If I loved it, it would probably be ideal. But... It just takes too much life energy. And I think I'm seeing the WoG model enough to think about flows and reducing waste and stacking things to generate some income while simultaneously doing things that I enjoy.

I have some important life milestones coming up in 2024 (end of child support) and contemplating a move, so I think I'll set a goal for myself to "quit my career" mid 2024. I am content to work in more interesting and skill or other capital building work, even it it pays significantly less. (said from my cushy contract tech job perspective!)

Thank you, @c_L for making that comment! I'm feeling inspired!

*Edit to say pays significantly less instead of significantly well

[xmj]

An interesting visualization I figured needed doing is which capital helps with which stage of the Maslow pyramid.

The following was a crude attempt at having gpt4o figure out a possible mapping.

Edit: Updated image with flows from Social capital to Esteem needs

[oldbeyond]

I’ve spent some time reading this thread as well as the L7 one. Personally I’m still at the 5 to 6 threshold, so this thread is more relevant to me right now, even if I suspect that there is some value in getting a sense of what’s ahead as well.

From what I can gather, L6 is all about understanding the second order effects of actions. It seems like the focus is more on additional positive yields than on negative ones to avoid? Understand meaning being intimately familiar with, not merely being aware of them on an intellectual level.

On a practical level, I take this to mean deepening existing skills and developing new ones, while being mindful of all yields produced. I also take it to mean connecting these yields in various ways, sidestepping the monetary economy. Previously, income/cost was optimized for.

L5 would thus only grow tomatoes to save on the grocery bill, or as a side business. L6 would also consider the value of skill acquisition, health effects (from more nutritious tomatoes/no pesticides as well as the physical activity and sunlight gained), quality/taste (can equivalent even be bought?), the improved soil health and the benefits to pollinators, improved aesthetic of the garden, the mental health benefits of gardening, the possibility of involving family members and friends and thus strengthening social bonds, the transferability of the acquired skills to the cultivation of other plants (as well as a general improvement in the understanding of ecology). Apart from the produce, L6 would also consider the yielded biomass (stems, leaves, roots) and seeds, and possible use of the plants for shading or as dividers. L6 would be mindful of the needed inputs (soil/substrate, seeds, water, containers, supports, fertilizer) but also note that these inputs may be available from other activities not involving money, hopefully being able to supply some of them from the output of other activities.

[AxelHeyst]

From what I can gather, L6 is all about understanding the second order effects of actions. It seems like the focus is more on additional positive yields than on negative ones to avoid?

I'm not sure if there is (/ought to be) a specific emphasis on positive versus negative effects. If anything, off the cuff, I'd say 'most people' are overfocused on benefits of actions and too blind to negative effects. It might come down to personality though: if you trend optimist, you might do well to put more effort into understanding the negative first and second order effects. If you trend pessimist, vice versa.

A lot of my insights came from sketching all of the negative effects for a given action/goal I could think of, and getting real honest with myself about whether I was cool with inviting/keeping those negative effects in my life, and starting to think/imagine how those negative effects would ripple through the rest of my life's system. Relevant: I trend optimist.

Nice description of L6 perspective on tomato growing.

[oldbeyond]

Considering all second order effects of course makes sense. Some inputs for the tomatoes above might be waste from other activities. I guess I see a bit of a point in focusing on positive yields vs negative waste to develop the energy to try new things. I am more of a pessimist so it might simply be my temperament speaking.

I am thinking a bit in terms of explore/exploit. As L5 is a local maximum, you might require a jolt of energy to break free and explore new skills. Then later on (L7) you’ll decide on which ones to exploit and integrate into a system, and which ones to drop. Initially the net result might be negative (expenses, frustration, insecurity) even if it leads to a better future state. Like leaving your ok island to explore the outer archipelago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explorati ... on_dilemma

[Jin+Guice]

I'm glad to see this thread get some action! Now that I've spent some time at level 6, I think level 6 is where you stop worrying and start living. Viewed from below... the old carrot of freedom-from, it makes some sense to talk about yields and flows. This also makes sense if you are very focused on collapsing now and beating the rush.

However, from a present day, oil party still burnin' place, the thing you get at level 6 is a fuckton of time and control. Budgeting, plugging numbers into a spreadsheet and finally feeling free of the repressive thumb of financial burden are all really really great. Aside from being able to quit a stressful job, most of the freedom gained until WL6 is abstract, freeing yourself from the existential threat of financial collapse.

Once you find your feet at WL6, you run right into yourself. The person who put aside some part of themselves to play the professional and/ or corporate and/ or financial game. Now you have freedom-to let that set aside person back in. Most people want to be free-to make, help or improve something (or a lot of things). Whether that is learning hard skills like building, growing or sewing or make art or improve relationships or help people. The second order effect of doing any of those things (while applying the previously learned WL1-5 lessons so you don't overcommit in some way) will be increased resiliency.

So you can start out measuring and quantifying in exercise, social connections and 900 other directions, but those are really just the hints about what you want to value, do and be. I think where you end up is feeling the dirt in your fingers, breathing the fresh air and having fun solving gardening problems and effecting the change you want to see with friends and loved ones on your own time, instead of effecting someone else's change while solving someone else's problems on someone else's time.

[Dave]

I'm not sure if there is (/ought to be) a specific emphasis on positive versus negative effects. If anything, off the cuff, I'd say 'most people' are overfocused on benefits of actions and too blind to negative effects. It might come down to personality though: if you trend optimist, you might do well to put more effort into understanding the negative first and second order effects. If you trend pessimist, vice versa.

...

This is interesting! I can't speak for other folks, but for a while now I've had a predilection towards focusing more on the negative effects of actions and using that more heavily to steer what things to do/not do. I was not was always like that - I used to get amped up about something and dove in, and generally found I hadn't thought through the downsides. Over time as I've steered my life into a place I'm happy with, I'm often skeptical something new doesn't come with more downsides than upsides, and the opportunity cost of the present actions sets a high bar. The risk of becoming calcified here being that you move to never doing anything new!

Considering all second order effects of course makes sense.

Yeah, of course rationally this is it, but I think AH is right that we all have a preference and a mental process ordering we naturally approach with.

I think as long as you think about both, especially over time as you incorporate feedback, you get to the same place. Just making sure to periodically recalibrate as experience accumulates and circumstances change.

[oldbeyond]

Since I’m a parent of two (4/1 years old), I’n constantly crashing into hard limits on time and energy. Even in a more general WL5 position, you might have made trade-offs where you sacrificed time and energy for money (increased income or lower expenses).

The dynamic for me often pushes me towards buying a solution, as that will (at least initially, but perhaps not in the long run) require less time and energy. It’s both that the expected outlay is higher, and that the uncertainty is substantial (”buying will cost 3x and 1h, DIY will cost 1x and I guess take 3h but it might be 13”). The uncertainty is also (understandably) a hard sell to my wife. I am realistic (pessimistic) so I can’t convince myself that I’ll breeze through every obstacle.

I guess breaking down a project further to focus on specific skills could help. Ie not building a bookshelf but repainting an existing one.

I’ve opted to work less (part time, more/stretched out parental leave), but that of course has very real financial implications. It seems fairly common for people to ”drop out to level up”, though.

[oldbeyond]

@Jin+Guice: That is something beautiful and meaningful to strive towards. I guess the other side of WL5 being rather impersonal and boring is that it’s also safe. For some of us, having to face the question of who we are and what we want to do can be a lot of work in itself (also facing the discomfort from being a noob at stuff). It has certainly been my main rabbit hole the last few years.

Likely totally worth it in the long run (there was no growth left for me in obsessing over spreadsheets or portfolio composition), but a challenge nonetheless.

[jacob]

Not sure if I've previously mentioned it in this thread, but WL5/6 also seems to coincide with the beginning transition into the postconventional ego stages as described by Loevinger and Cook-Greuter (and many others). What makes this harder is that WL6 is the first time the person is beginning to question who they are without the support of society. "If I am not my specialized job function (career), who am I really?" The thing is that society doesn't really have an answer for this. Yet ERE does. As such, WL6 is not just about picking up a bunch of new hobbies. It's also shedding one's old identity as a "trained specialist with a career" in a world that doesn't really see much beyond or know other forms of conversation than "what do you do for a living?"

See https://www.sloww.co/ego-development-th ... -stage-4-5

[7Wannabe5]

What makes this harder is that WL6 is the first time the person is beginning to question who they are without the support of society. "If I am not my specialized job function (career), who am I really?"

Yes, but what if you have never strongly associated or ego-identified yourself with your specialized job function (career)?

[jacob]

Yes, but what if you have never strongly associated or ego-identified yourself with your specialized job function (career)?

Then unless you've identified with a similarly narrow identity (as supported by your surrounding society) like mother, father, housewife, soccer fan, Christian, ... the comment does not apply.

[J_]

The thing is that society doesn't really have an answer for this. Yet ERE does. As such, WL6 is not just about picking up a bunch of new hobbies. It's also shedding one's old identity as a "trained specialist with a career" in a world that doesn't really see much beyond or know other forms of conversation than "what do you do for a living?"

Can you say: you become to swim in another kind of water when you reach WL 6 ?

A kind of same (odd) experience I had when I ( long ago) internalised/applied the knowledge combination of nutrition and health (see Michael Greger).
“Suddenly” I realised that growing old(er) does not mean at all that your health would deteriorate. Now I swim again in other water as a very big part of my surrounding society has one or more illnesses. There are hardly healthy people anymore above age 50….

The connection with Wl 6 (was for me) that this level gives the patience and time to study (nutrition and health) and to learn to cook that kind of food in a many tasty ways.