Long-time listener, first-time caller

[ThoreauGoing]

I must be one of the many long time listeners to the ERE conversation who, until recently, haven't felt a need to create an account. I suppose that changes with this post.

I've had multiple exposures to ERE and this forum over the years. Instead of giving a personal history, I'd like to use this introduction to chart the times I've banged my shin against the ERE table as I have groped my way through the dark recesses of the internet.

FIRE
I believe I found out about FIRE before ERE. This was when FIRE was still odd, new and the property of a dozen or so bloggers. Since I tend to like to establish first principles I found my way to Jacob's blog rather quickly. I read the 21 day makeover and largely saw the sense of it. At that point I lived rather closely to those principles given I only half-heartedly took part in any employment. FIRE was a day dream, a vision of living in a peculiarly unburdened way. However, I found the high upfront cost of career sacrifice for a Vanguard delivered freedom most FIRE personalities argued for to be dispiriting. At least Jacob, in his extremity, had a coherent philosophy. I didn't really stick around beyond that, however.

Epicureanism
I'd guess there are mainly Stoics here but I find myself drawn to Epicurus. An atomic explanation of the world that is surprisingly accurate even today, a sober but happiness-informed ethics, hanging out in a garden outside Athens--sign me up! Most writings of Epicurus are lost and it was scouting for some more reading materials that I found a link to these forums. I think it was a post about permaculture and perhaps polyamory? I was sufficiently intrigued to explore the forum a bit then. It left an impression that here was a pocket of the web with some fellow travelers. Again didn't stick around.

ISO different opinions
One day, bored of my usual internet rabbit holes, I thought of visiting the ERE site again. This time I tried out some of the Blogroll links on the sidebar. I found myself reading Axel Heyst website with interest, listening to his podcast and listening, at his recommendation, to The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens. While I was relatively well informed on our unfolding global heating disaster this became my introduction to peak oil, the concept of overshoot and many other horrifying facets of the metacrisis. These were podcasts I listened to primarily while hacking about in an ill-fated allotment garden. I would encourage anyone putting themselves through a similar education to do something exhausting in nature as a companion activity. What this did reveal to me was that ERE was almost a peak oil adaptation manifesto with really clever retirement marketing. Further reading of the forums and the back story of Jacob's peak oil website revealed this to be a literal truth.

Yes, I read the book
I finally got it out from my library last summer. I might have bought it only I have made a personal boycott of Amazon. I read it on vacation which was an odd sort of indulgence. It tied together a lot of the concepts I was seeing on the forum. I forget a lot already and should likely put it on hold again. After that, however, I took to the forums in earnest reading journals and evolving discussions. The benefit of the journals is that you can do something of a speed run of many different journeys towards self-directed living. Recently I felt as though the only sporting thing to do was to contribute my own journal or thoughts to a conversation I found myself following closely.

Partial disclosure
Here's where I will ask for your help.

I'm a rather private person and I've read enough of the journals to notice many have enormous gaps and retroactive deletions. I'd like to avoid this myself. One should be prepared for anything written online to not stay anonymous, I know. Still, I'm certain there are some best practices I could employ with a journal to prevent censorship by a future self. Personally identifying (and perhaps compromising) data becomes more complex to address in aggregate.

From what I've observed it's best to:

• Be careful about revealing actual financial figures.
• To not list your location, employer, etc.
• To avoid spilling too much about your personal relationships.

Anything folks would add too this?

I'd at least like a chance of healthy anonymity in a journal while still being entertaining, unique and valuable to others. Thanks!

[loutfard]

The balance is delicate and very personal. Henry for example seems to have found a good way to participate while closely guarding private bits.

[AxelHeyst]

Welcome TG, cool intro. Glad you're joining the party. Would be interested in breadcrumbs from your dive into Epicurus.

Regarding privacy, I start with the following heuristic: "Tomorrow, everything I've posted here will be emailed to my mother, sent to the NSA, and printed in a national and local newspaper. Still want to hit Submit?"

Another question to ask yourself is what it is specifically you're trying to avoid. People finding your personal email address? People targeting you for kidnapping and ransom? People showing up at your front door? Your boss knowing you're dabbling in RE fantasies? Is it that you don't want Bad Guys to know you're a potentially lucrative target for theft, or changing dynamics in your dysfunctional extended family (long lost cousins asking for a 'loan'), or that you're simply uncomfortable with the idea of seeming like "one of those rich people who brags on the internet" to your friend group? Understanding these motivations at a granular level will help generate the specific rules of what not to post.

[urgud]

I would like to hear more about the ill-fated allotment garden.

[theanimal]

Welcome!

I must be one of the many long time listeners to the ERE conversation who, until recently, haven't felt a need to create an account. I suppose that changes with this post.

I'm a rather private person and I've read enough of the journals to notice many have enormous gaps and retroactive deletions. I'd like to avoid this myself. One should be prepared for anything written online to not stay anonymous, I know. Still, I'm certain there are some best practices I could employ with a journal to prevent censorship by a future self. Personally identifying (and perhaps compromising) data becomes more complex to address in aggregate.

From what I've observed it's best to:

• Be careful about revealing actual financial figures.
• To not list your location, employer, etc.
• To avoid spilling too much about your personal relationships.

Anything folks would add too this?

Belated concerns for privacy have definitely damaged the forum as you've noted, resulting in many threads that unfortunately now resemble swiss cheese (no offense to @Jean). I think it's worth pondering the questions put forth by @AH and seeing if there's actually anything worth worrying about. As one of the least private people on the forum, I don't think there really is much to be worried about if you approach the community/discussions as you would with trusted friends/family. Of course, it is different in that it is made public for the world to read, but I wonder how much growth I would have neglected, foregone, and missed out on if I did not open myself up to the forum about my struggles with personal relationships, my locale, and myself at various points in my time on here. This is a very giving place and being open definitely lends to making the most of this environment. I can understand why you may want to retain privacy in some domains, but I would encourage you to consider the above and consider what you may be missing out on as a result of being more closed off. Ultimately, the balance will come down to your own personal preference/tolerance. Again, welcome!

[ThoreauGoing]

Already some great responses! Not surprising but I am thankful.

Henry for example seems to have found a good way to participate while closely guarding private bits.

That's a good insight and I suspect it's partly a product of how he writes. Henry is probably the most unique stylist on these forums, at least since BRUTE doesn't seem to be around anymore. I wonder if employing a satirical approach allows for plenty of truth without too much exposure?

I lived during Web 1.0 and there was an anonymity of that stage of the internet that has been lost. It was misued by many to be terrible to others across the planet without repercussion. It was also used by others to allow a form of disclosure unavailable in everyday life. I see traces of that in the journals here but I am aware that it takes a lot more vigilance and wisdom to achieve that nowadays.

Regarding privacy, I start with the following heuristic: "Tomorrow, everything I've posted here will be emailed to my mother, sent to the NSA, and printed in a national and local newspaper. Still want to hit Submit?"

This is my heuristic as well. Or that everything written on the internet should only be as secret as the back of a postcard. Problem is that this heuristic can work perfectly on a post in isolation and fail when posts hit a certain number. This is what I think might happen to the "swiss cheese" journals. Observations or small disclosures that aren't concerning by themselves become connected in the thread of a larger narrative. Then one day it suddenly feels "too risky" and the simplest answer is just to scrub all mentions of the allotment garden where you persistently stole vegetables unaware that one of the grandmas came from a mafia family*. I suspect that employing your heuristic goes a very good distance towards reducing the likelihood of this. I suppose I'm hoping to learn from more experienced journalers what may seem innocuous now but could become a headache later on.

you're simply uncomfortable with the idea of seeming like "one of those rich people who brags on the internet"

I suppose that I'm lucky. There is no risk of this for the foreseeable future.

I wonder how much growth I would have neglected, foregone, and missed out on if I did not open myself up to the forum about my struggles with personal relationships, my locale, and myself at various points in my time on here.

I didn't ask for this but I needed to hear it. It is this same impulse that has led me to create an account rather than continue to poke about here anonymously. I've reached about the maximum utility that passive observation allows. It is by crossing the breach into a more public engagement that I can continue to grow from the discussions here. It will be a balance, as you note, and I'm grateful for some good counsel on finding it.


*Actually, I learned that a garden a 3 mile jog away is not feasible for me. That's even with a WOG that highly values terrific cardiovascular endurance and fresh tomatoes.

[jacob]

I lived during Web 1.0 and there was an anonymity of that stage of the internet that has been lost. It was misued by many to be terrible to others across the planet without repercussion. It was also used by others to allow a form of disclosure unavailable in everyday life. I see traces of that in the journals here but I am aware that it takes a lot more vigilance and wisdom to achieve that nowadays.

Much of the Swiss-cheesing of the forum comes down to a few people breaking one or the other (or especially both) of the two points I underlined and subsequently regretting it. Breaking is done either deliberately (e.g. believing that freedom of speech + anonymity = the ability to say things that piss people off without consequences) or accidentally (even in 2024 there are still those who don't realize that an online forum is not a private club but a public "club" in the sense that technically your boss or spouse might walk in the door uninvited at any point even if it is unlikely). The subsequent part is because the consequences (of being found out) are rarely instant as situations change, etc.

However, if those two issues are kept in mind at all times, the likelihood of problems are very low. I'm also a web1.0 guy so I suppose these two ideas were part of our formative years. Indeed, again, Swiss-cheese issues are connected with people who either grew up with on web2.0 or joined it later mistakenly carrying their old-fashioned "local private club" habits onto a global public forum.

In terms of wisdom, I don't have any grand theory to offer but it is definitely worth pondering. Marcus Aurelius said something to the effect that one should live one's life in a way that one would be unaffected by the full disclosure of all one's secrets. There are two ways to read this. It could mean that one should be stoic about any embarrassment or social consequences of having such secrets revealed. It could also mean conforming to a life where no such consequences occur i.e. having no controversial or compromising opinions, choices, etc.

Insofar there's a right answer, I think it's somewhere in between or a combination of the two. If I have an opinion that I wouldn't say to someone's face, I keep it to myself. So, for example, you wouldn't find me posting online about how I think my company or boss sucks UNLESS I was also vocal about it at my job. Ditto family members. This is part of internalizing that not just the internet but the entire world is potentially public information. Indeed, given that this is public, I would also not talk about someone/something unless I was willing to face the social consequences of me indirectly airing their dirty laundry. As such one also needs to be sensitive to whatever/whoever one is talking about because "the world is watching". In this way, what I say to anyone and anywhere is not very far out of alignment with what I believe and what I'm willing to stand by putting my name on it for the record. Another word for this is authenticity/living without a mask on. I do understand that many people feel like they have to put a mask on in order to fit in with family or corporate ... but if so, using the megaphone of the internet to tell the world what they REALLY think and how they REALLY feel is unwise.

Another good rule when posting is the "need to know"-basis of the message. Another factor is the "didn't need to know"-basis or TMI-problem. For example, if you want detailed feedback on your budget, then we "need to know" your budget perhaps down to the last dollar. However, we "don't need to know" the account types and names and addresses of your financial institutions, and neither does the rest of the internet.

Combining these two, what to post and what not to post really comes down to two things: The risk of making yourself a target (pissing someone off, having an affair, saying that you hate your company, making political enemies) of someone and the cost for them to find out things about you that you don't want them to know. Finding out is for the most part always an economic decision. Nobody is really anonymous. Some are just harder to find than others. However, only a few are really worth finding. For the most part, most people just don't care, because one is rarely as interesting as one thinks one is.

On the flip-side, the rewards of engaging as opposed to lurking can be rather very high. Lets form a 3x3 matrix of creators, commentators, and lurkers using the 90-9-1 rule. Creators engaging with creators lead to massive productivity and opportunity. (On the forum, a "creator" is someone with an active journal or someone who starts threads that go for pages.) This manifests in the form of conferences, books, podcasts, interview requests, recurring meetups, job offers, and perhaps some day "ERE City". All these rewards fall to the 1%*1%=0.01% of the people. Then there are the creators engaging with commentators (2*1%*9%=18%) which cause effects like forum discussions, feedback, or a single meetup. Then you have lurkers passively "engaging" with the life of creators and commentators. They are essentially spectators to what is hopefully better than watching TV but still a comparably empty experience. And finally there's the vacuum of lurkers engaging or technically not-engaging with lurkers because there's nothing there. That's 0.9*0.9=81% of lost potential.

On the flip-flip-side, engaging does require more effort/energy than lurking and it is VERY easy to spread oneself too thin. We've talked about this on the forum in the past when the MMGs started. Suddenly many who were previously creating or commenting on the forum just disappeared because they were busy creating and commenting elsewhere on discord/signal/zoom, and so forum activity too a steep dive. More was lost here than gained elsewhere. This was observable because it happened to many forumites at the same time. But of course, individuals also come and go as they gain and lose interest and work through their issues. Overall, though, formulating/explaining one's own issues and understanding usually does lead to far more effective mental growth/change that merely reading someone else's thoughts about a topic.

[suomalainen]

using the megaphone of the internet to tell the world what they REALLY think and how they REALLY feel is unwise.

For the most part, most people just don't care, because one is rarely as interesting as one thinks one is.

For me, it comes down to these two things. Don't be an asshole (to the people here or to the people you write about). This will spare you any embarrassment should you be unmasked. And the risk of you being unmasked is extremely low, because you're just not that interesting. Some of the biggest swiss-cheese moments occurred, iirc, because people lost their minds in/near the 2020 election, thinking "the government" will be coming for them ... for ... posting ... about ... lentils ... and ... beans ... or something.

[chenda]

I always make it a rule never to mention the stockpiles of arms my militia is building up. To mention that on a public forum would just be foolish.

[Henry]

I was a poster on a heavy metal board where an argument over who was the better Van Halen singer, David Lee Roth or Sammy Hagar, spilled out of the computer screen into a photo verified fist fight in the parking lot of an Oslo Burger King. The DLR guy supposedly won, albeit with accusations of hair plug pulling. I just don't see that level of passion here. I recollect the Covid thread getting a little heated but I think the pie chart utilization helped people take breathers before there were any real challenges to step outside the internet.

[black_son_of_gray]

I'd at least like a chance of healthy anonymity in a journal while still being entertaining, unique and valuable to others.

Well, there's who you are on paper, and then there's who you are as a person. For me personally, knowing who you are on paper isn't particularly entertaining, unique, or valuable. (This isn't to say that paperwork isn't important in life more broadly.) But I do enjoy getting to understand the person underneath all that. There are some amazing people on this forum! I think it is reasonably possible to separate those two things in a journal, if one is so inclined.

What I most enjoy about posts on the forum are the different perspectives, histories, reasoning, insights, obscure references, metaphors, etc. that they contain. That's all coming from the humanity behind the various user names, not the specific identity.

Welcome!

On the flip-flip-side, engaging does require more effort/energy than lurking and it is VERY easy to spread oneself too thin. We've talked about this on the forum in the past when the MMGs started. Suddenly many who were previously creating or commenting on the forum just disappeared because they were busy creating and commenting elsewhere on discord/signal/zoom, and so forum activity too a steep dive. More was lost here than gained elsewhere. This was observable because it happened to many forumites at the same time. But of course, individuals also come and go as they gain and lose interest and work through their issues. Overall, though, formulating/explaining one's own issues and understanding usually does lead to far more effective mental growth/change that merely reading someone else's thoughts about a topic.

Related: I think there is a lot to be gained from taking the time to (think about and) elaborate reasoning in forum posts. A lot of discussion on the forum takes place at a depth where 'firing off a post' from the hip (at least for me) is not a great idea. The consequence is that I don't post a lot on the forum, and I would actually like to post more. BUT: 1) It takes me a looooong time to write a post , and 2) I have a lot of other projects going on in my life that I want to do. So, most of the time I lurk, and maybe 1 in 4 ideas I have for a post actually manifest in reality. I honestly don't know how some of you do it...

[ThoreauGoing]

I think the diversity and wisdom of these responses has already made clear that making an account was the right decision. Current lurkers, take note!

What to post and what not to post really comes down to two things: The risk of making yourself a target of someone and the cost for them to find out things about you that you don't want them to know.

For the purposes of finding a balance of privacy I think this a good summation. The higher the risk of your message (or the more inflammatory you make yourself thus incentivizing people to find out just WHO wrote that) the more careful you need to be in hardening your privacy practices. I also appreciate the need-to-know / TMI spectrum that a good journal needs to consider. It also is a matter of how much effort do I want to expend protecting privacy. For example, if I want advice on whether a used vehicle is a good buy I don't need to add a link the specific vehicle from the specific dealer who is located in my hometown. I can just jot down the relevant specs even if it takes an additional 15 seconds. For me that would likely be a worthwhile tradeoff. For others it's more like, "Who could be bothered!"

I think there is some safety here too in the sense that this forum has a culture that rewards the "don't be an asshole" approach. It is surprising just how much this is the case. The civility of disagreements here is something to behold. However, I would like to know what ERE beef would lead to a throwdown in Oslo Burger King parking lot. Maybe if I felt someone really underestimated my Wheaton level I'd need to make a point. Crack skulls, carry water.

People lost their minds in/near the 2020 election, thinking "the government" will be coming for them ... for ... posting ... about ... lentils ... and ... beans ... or something.

I actually didn't realize this was a factor in some cases. I appreciate the context. Of course, if the NSA knows what "lentils and beans" are code for here chenda might already be compromised...

Engaging does require more effort/energy than lurking and it is VERY easy to spread oneself too thin. We've talked about this on the forum in the past when the MMGs started. Suddenly many who were previously creating or commenting on the forum just disappeared because they were busy creating and commenting elsewhere on discord/signal/zoom, and so forum activity too a steep dive.

I think this is another really important insight I am grateful to get before starting a journal. I've skimmed some of the discussions on the Darknetting of the forums and I do think that there is a unique value in trying to compose your thoughts for public consumption. I had thought of it as simply a product of conversations moving offline but didn't consider that it was also an issue of energy and time. There's another form of self censorship which doesn't materialize as retroactive deletion but as an inhibition to write. I have seen great journals get waylaid when the standards the authors held themselves to or the format of their updates were just too much work--the cost of upkeep became too great and they got abandoned. I'm also surprised by how many people self-flagellate themselves for "not being ERE enough" as though this wasn't a journey you could be open about. Sometimes you pay money to solve a problem because you are lazy and that is FINE. It makes me wonder how much isn't posted because somebody feels they need to live up to some ERE ideal.

A lot of discussion on the forum takes place at a depth where 'firing off a post' from the hip (at least for me) is not a great idea. The consequence is that I don't post a lot on the forum, and I would actually like to post more. BUT: 1) It takes me a looooong time to write a post , and 2) I have a lot of other projects going on in my life that I want to do.

I am so relieved to hear you say this. I am a slow writer as well. Your journal is one that I've read in it's entirety and I think the time you've taken on it is evident. But I am similarly blown away by what others are able to produce on these forums at such a reliable cadence. I mean, jacob just fired off about 1,000 words and incorporated a novel 3x3 matrix. Based on the stats I can now see as a member (Lurkers, come join--there's stats!) he has averaged about 4 posts a day for over a decade. I'm tired from writing just one and I've borrowed a bunch of quotes for it!

Thank you all for the excellent advice. If others have thoughts to share or suggestions on how to make a great journal it will be most welcome. I know I will be referring back to this often as I get my own underway.

[7Wannabe5]

Welcome!

I've been a constant reader my entire life, but I was a blocked writer for many years, from around age 12 until my mid-30s. Then I had a major mid-life crisis and my writing voice came out of the gates fast and formed. Now, I can't not write. So, sort of a gift and a curse, especially since I don't have a great deal of control over it. I am slowed down when given an assignment such as "Executive Report on Recent Developments in Database Security", because soooooooooo boring in terms of topic, structure, and intended audience. And, I am also slowed down or rendered awkward when I attempt to convey emotion in my writing. I am a warm, calm, mature woman in physical presence, but my writing voice is a whistling 12 year old boy riding a raft down river, grabbing words and concepts off the trees as he goes, and occasionally stripping down buck naked to jump right in the stream. Shhh, don't tell the deep-pocketed others, but I don't believe he even gives half a damn about property rights, so not likely to be inhibited of freedom of speech. However, when the raft eventually comes to rest on a sand bar, I find that I am most likely to edit anything that might hurt somebody's feelings and/or anything that is even more towards insanely off-topic than my usual.

That said, I do scold myself for spend too much time reading and writing (as opposed to engaging in burpees, lucrative trade, or brushing my hair), so I can empathize with those for whom the process is slower, so even more of a life-energy investment. I also truly appreciate the craftsmanship aesthetic and intellectual rigor exhibited by those of you with the slower approach. The beyond the usual level of writing on this forum is very much in alignment with the beyond the usual level of civility found here. The wonderful thing about forum format is that it is asynchronous; you can carry your threads forward at whatever pace you prefer. The month mark is arbitrary and should be more frequently violated, because it stinks of the pay packet and billing cycle more than the moon. I found your first entry quite interesting, and look forward to your future contributions.

[ThoreauGoing]

This was in the Future of Artificial Intelligence thread but I had to drop it here because I very succinctly points to my concerns around digital privacy and the cumulative impact of posts/disclosures and the unforeseen implications:

The experiment that makes me nervous, is feeding a model someone's entire blog or forum post history, then using it to learn about the person. Computers can connect 1000s of data points way better than a human. It's not even so much data that it's expensive to process. I bet the capacity to do it locally becomes commoditized.

I imagine the inferences include a lot of unexpected disclosure. It could even happen unintentionally. Say someone tries to create an early retirement AI and pulls the contents of ere forums, mmm forums and bogleheads. Only the user decides to ask about individuals instead of retirement. Maybe a couple references to nearby businesses offer enough data to reveal a location, for instance. Or to link users across sites, then combine that data.

I wonder if such tools will become publicly available, especially for larger forums like Reddit. But potentially also for forums software, as say an AI summary feature.


And how good are the major LLMs at doing this across the full Internet, with the guard rails off? I bet those models are already running somewhere.

This is basically what I fear.

Like, before the internet someone could have appeared in an adult film marketed to a different country and felt rather confident of the impermanence and the unlinkability of that act to their current lives. Nobody was expecting a networked internet where all these things would be scanned and duplicated without constraint. People then made a decision around their privacy that was bounded by their technological context and it entirely blew up. Now I see people making ill-advised online disclosures but the promise of privacy is made possible in unending crush of oncoming content. You just wait for the stack to bury your mistakes. But what if that "guarantee" of privacy is a naive one with AIs that can read all of the internet, cross link your accounts and profile you?

Halloween was a few days ago but this is a spooky thought for me!

On a cheerier note:

I am a warm, calm, mature woman in physical presence, but my writing voice is a whistling 12 year old boy riding a raft down river, grabbing words and concepts off the trees as he goes, and occasionally stripping down buck naked to jump right in the stream. Shhh, don't tell the deep-pocketed others, but I don't believe he even gives half a damn about property rights, so not likely to be inhibited of freedom of speech. However, when the raft eventually comes to rest on a sand bar, I find that I am most likely to edit anything that might hurt somebody's feelings and/or anything that is even more towards insanely off-topic than my usual.

Imagining your writing voice as Huckleberry Finn is absolutely delightful. I also think that the disparity between the writing voice and the life experiences and intellectual range of you as an author produces some truly wonderful insights presented in a completely unique way. It can be really powerful, fun and come seemingly out of nowhere like a good left hook. I've been grateful for your writing because the angle of your approach often helps me understand a concept that I would otherwise stubbornly butt my head against. I take your note as an important suggestion to at least not self-censor in the act of writing. If your temperament is cautious, as mine seems to be, you can just edit before you hit "Submit" after all!

[Scott 2]

Halloween was a few days ago but this is a spooky thought for me!

I think public transparency into our private information is likely inevitable. It's a question of when, and how prepared individuals are for the disclosure. I considered the earlier retirement AI as a fun learning project, but decided against it because I don't think many have come to terms with this yet.

Odds are someone else will do it. There's profit to be made. When people trust AI, all the monetization we've seen with the Web, will shift to the new channel.


Thing is, the essence of who we are, already exists in private databases. Vilify big tech, sure, I've done it myself. But credit card, transactions, therapists notes, the license plate reader at your local condo association. The price of living in an information society, is the data exists.

I can't imagine it stays disconnected. So I think we're better off preparing for it, rather than hiding. Part of that is learning to collaborate publicly. Cause it's all going public sooner or later.