Jacob's gaming journal
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Jacob's gaming journal
I wanted to chronicle my renewed interest in gaming (after a 25+ year hiatus) more accurately to see if there's any development in attitude and also to see if it's sustainable. Insights and all that.
It's rather motivated by Randers2052 projection that tourism and nature experiences will become rare/unaffordable to the majority of people over the next 20-40 years. Instead he recommends developing an interest and capacity (tools+skills) for electronic entertainment. This certainly conforms to current trends whether the experience of the former is already getting poorer, whereas the experience of the latter is getting better.
My computational backstory: If generations are determined by the cultural changes of the information society, I'm either a young GenX or a very old Millenial. I knew a time before computers, but I was an early adopter and bought my first computer in 1987 when I was 12 and so have been at this for longer than most people. I've been online since 1989. Growing up in the sticks, I spent most of my childhood playing games and being online, quickyl getting into running my own BBS and participating in forums on fidonet. This all ended in 1997 or so when I received my first failing grade ever and realized that I couldn't just coast on my talents/needed to grow up. After that I focused exclusively on my studies and later on ERE. This created a 25y gaming hiatus where I effectively didn't play any games (estimate <100hrs total over two+ decades).
For the reasons above and because my ERE-ducks are all in a row, I decided to make a go at gaming again in 2022. So far me talking about my meandering path has been spread over four threads:
Hardware: viewtopic.php?t=852
DIY: viewtopic.php?t=12429
Social: viewtopic.php?t=12475
VR: viewtopic.php?p=275633
The purpose of this "journal" is to gather in one thread any and all insights as to whether "gaming" or "games" can eventually become a substitute for the loss of nature/travel and/or provide as meaningful existence on par with filing TPS reports or selling widgets for WhoCares Inc. when you no longer need the money.
Here, I'm going to write about my experience with specific games and my approach to them. What can be learned in terms of skills? Do those skills transfer outside of the games? Are games a waste of time or do they make one wiser? Can games be expanded outside the virtual world, e.g. by building hardware or meeting other gamers IRL? What are different gaming subcultures like and how do they compare to other subcultures?
It is already clear that the world of games as I left it in the mid 1990s is nothing like the world of games as I rejoined in the early 2020s. The airplane equivalent is leaving during WWI, not paying attention for the next two decades, and coming back again around WWII and having your mind blown. Not a difference of degree but a difference of kind.
Anyhoo, while I named the thread "Jacob's gaming journal", feel free to chime in with your own gaming experiences. We don't all like the same things or kinds of interacting. This is more of a thread that discussing gaming as a lifestyle... not much different than threads that discuss working a job or being a perma-tourist as a lifestyle.
It's rather motivated by Randers2052 projection that tourism and nature experiences will become rare/unaffordable to the majority of people over the next 20-40 years. Instead he recommends developing an interest and capacity (tools+skills) for electronic entertainment. This certainly conforms to current trends whether the experience of the former is already getting poorer, whereas the experience of the latter is getting better.
My computational backstory: If generations are determined by the cultural changes of the information society, I'm either a young GenX or a very old Millenial. I knew a time before computers, but I was an early adopter and bought my first computer in 1987 when I was 12 and so have been at this for longer than most people. I've been online since 1989. Growing up in the sticks, I spent most of my childhood playing games and being online, quickyl getting into running my own BBS and participating in forums on fidonet. This all ended in 1997 or so when I received my first failing grade ever and realized that I couldn't just coast on my talents/needed to grow up. After that I focused exclusively on my studies and later on ERE. This created a 25y gaming hiatus where I effectively didn't play any games (estimate <100hrs total over two+ decades).
For the reasons above and because my ERE-ducks are all in a row, I decided to make a go at gaming again in 2022. So far me talking about my meandering path has been spread over four threads:
Hardware: viewtopic.php?t=852
DIY: viewtopic.php?t=12429
Social: viewtopic.php?t=12475
VR: viewtopic.php?p=275633
The purpose of this "journal" is to gather in one thread any and all insights as to whether "gaming" or "games" can eventually become a substitute for the loss of nature/travel and/or provide as meaningful existence on par with filing TPS reports or selling widgets for WhoCares Inc. when you no longer need the money.
Here, I'm going to write about my experience with specific games and my approach to them. What can be learned in terms of skills? Do those skills transfer outside of the games? Are games a waste of time or do they make one wiser? Can games be expanded outside the virtual world, e.g. by building hardware or meeting other gamers IRL? What are different gaming subcultures like and how do they compare to other subcultures?
It is already clear that the world of games as I left it in the mid 1990s is nothing like the world of games as I rejoined in the early 2020s. The airplane equivalent is leaving during WWI, not paying attention for the next two decades, and coming back again around WWII and having your mind blown. Not a difference of degree but a difference of kind.
Anyhoo, while I named the thread "Jacob's gaming journal", feel free to chime in with your own gaming experiences. We don't all like the same things or kinds of interacting. This is more of a thread that discussing gaming as a lifestyle... not much different than threads that discuss working a job or being a perma-tourist as a lifestyle.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Gamified platforms that integrate the virtual and real world are pretty good gateway drugs. With AI generating the environments, they will only get better. Zwift and MyWhoosh allow for challenging, on-demand cycling competition without the dangers or climate limitations of real road cycling. Activities that can gamify using a treadmill (running, hiking, rucking...) or use an erg (swimming, rowing and other paddle sports to name a few) will translate well to the new world.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Not exactly gaming, but certainly of the 'computer-based tourism' flavor: I've been gobsmacked recently by the rollout of 3D in Google Maps.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, go to Google Maps on a PC (phone version isn't as good?), make sure you are on the satellite layer, zoom in, then hold down ctrl while click-dragging to tilt the perspective.
It's both stunning and creepy. My own house is rendered disturbingly well from all angles, and I kind of wish it didn't. But that also means a lot of global cities are also quite impressive. Venice, London, Tokyo. Of course it isn't exactly like 'being there', but it does do something more than simply looking at a map or flipping photos of a coffee-table book. It's hard to explain. (Maybe that's just map-loving me geeking out)
Not all cities render, which is kind of interesting from a geopolitical perspective (so e.g. no Moscow), and "nature" is only so-so at best (e.g. the Grand Canyon). Who knows what the next 5-10 years will bring.
@jacob (or others)...how does that compare to e.g. the scenery in a modern flight simulator?
If you don't know what I'm talking about, go to Google Maps on a PC (phone version isn't as good?), make sure you are on the satellite layer, zoom in, then hold down ctrl while click-dragging to tilt the perspective.
It's both stunning and creepy. My own house is rendered disturbingly well from all angles, and I kind of wish it didn't. But that also means a lot of global cities are also quite impressive. Venice, London, Tokyo. Of course it isn't exactly like 'being there', but it does do something more than simply looking at a map or flipping photos of a coffee-table book. It's hard to explain. (Maybe that's just map-loving me geeking out)
Not all cities render, which is kind of interesting from a geopolitical perspective (so e.g. no Moscow), and "nature" is only so-so at best (e.g. the Grand Canyon). Who knows what the next 5-10 years will bring.
@jacob (or others)...how does that compare to e.g. the scenery in a modern flight simulator?
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
@bsog- I'm not sure if you've ever played around with Google Earth, but it sounds like they are integrating those features into maps. https://earth.google.com/ The desktop app is better than the web version in my opinion, with a lot more features.
Up here at least, Google Earth/3D view has been used by people in the outdoors for trip planning purposes to see what remote valleys are like, where animal trails are, rapids or obstructions in river, check out possible areas for hunting etc. at least as long as I've been here. The imagery can vary significantly, but in general is very good.
On a related note, access to near real time satellite imagery has also been on the rise, especially in shoulder seasons, as people search for where there is/isn't snow, ice, leaf out, and current water levels. There are some really cool resources out there.
Up here at least, Google Earth/3D view has been used by people in the outdoors for trip planning purposes to see what remote valleys are like, where animal trails are, rapids or obstructions in river, check out possible areas for hunting etc. at least as long as I've been here. The imagery can vary significantly, but in general is very good.
On a related note, access to near real time satellite imagery has also been on the rise, especially in shoulder seasons, as people search for where there is/isn't snow, ice, leaf out, and current water levels. There are some really cool resources out there.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
I was thinking the other day Google street view is a fantastic resource for burglars, stalkers, terrorists and other undesirables. But I do enjoy virtually visiting other places on Google, its genuinely sustainable tourismblack_son_of_gray wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:39 pmIt's both stunning and creepy. My own house is rendered disturbingly well from all angles, and I kind of wish it didn't.
It's used a lot in my line of work; it usually saves on the trouble of an actual site visit. It's often used in litigation and legal issues to demonstrate landscape changes.
Before D-Day the government asked everyone to send in post cards and holiday snaps they had taken in Normandy to build up an intelligence picture of the landscape.
Though in a few centuries the ability to street view will be a fantastic historical resource; just imagine if we could look at the world in 3D in say 1750 today (although things like the Francis Frith collection comes pretty close to a Victorian street view)
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
See viewtopic.php?p=289816#p289816 and much of that thread in general. I for one recommend the ISS or standing a few miles away from a nuclear test, but the whale is okay too. One very interesting thing about VR is the ability to "go where most humans otherwise can't go. This includes experiencing the world as someone the size of a bacteria or flying too close to the sun.)black_son_of_gray wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:39 pmNot exactly gaming, but certainly of the 'computer-based tourism' flavor: I've been gobsmacked recently by the rollout of 3D in Google Maps.
[...]
@jacob (or others)...how does that compare to e.g. the scenery in a modern flight simulator?
Flightsimulator2020 currently includes the entire planet Earth AS IT IS complete with its concurrent weather systems. IOW, if it's raining in real world Chicago, it's raining in the same way at ORD (plus minus a few minutes) in the game. Watch some FS2020 clips on youtube at HiRes. I doubt very many can tell the difference between that and a movie of the real world.
I've played around with Google Earth VR et al. (more travel oriented commentary in the OP link). The recording cameras have been to a lot of places including local forest preserve trails. I have no idea how they get the cameras in there, but it's mapped. The experience is a bit like sticking your head into an aquarium. You're not exactly there, but it's definitely a step beyond watching a movie or seeing a postcard. It probably depends on how you generally rank your sensory input. Obviously VR is something like 90% visual and 10% audio... while foregoing smells, touch, taste, and haptic sensations. If those are important to your experience, then VR is like a poor movie. If not, VR is close to real life. I went to a few places of my childhood in VR and it was downright nostalgic. For me, it wasn't much different than going there IRL a few months later. The main limit with these VR recordings being that it's not "live" + you can't walk off the trail. IOW, you can't chase rabbits, and you can't talk or interact with the people there(*). But if you don't do that anyway...
(*) Frankly, this is probably the weirdest thing about some of these VR experiences. It's like being a ghost. It's still restricted to 100% a third person experience. Of course some of the sims are changing this but only in sim world.
In terms of flying sims, I've never flown in a real plane, but ... sim flying is generally ranked in terms of stages like this:
1) 2D flying with keyboard and/or 8 axis joystick + simplified avionics, like 5% of a real aircraft (1980s-early 90s)
2) 2D flying with analog stick and throttle + simplified avionics at the 10% level (1990s)
3) 2D flying with analog stick and throttle and head tracking + 50% of avionics (2010s)
4) 3D flying with stick, throttle, and VR + 100% of avionics (2015)
5) 6D flying with stick, throttle, VR, and motion chair + 100% of avionics (2020).
Each step brings a new level of situational awareness. Like (1) is like flying by punching numbers into an autopilot. (2) is like flying on instruments while looking through a periscope. (3) is like flying visually. (4) gives you depth perception. I haven't tried (5) but I imagine it would help to feel the difference between e.g. a slip and a skid (a kind of flying slightly sideways... not unlike how a skidding car is not going in the same direction that it's pointing) both of which look the same to the eyes but doesn't feel the same to the body/sense of balance/inner ear.
In 1997, I left at (2). When I came back in 2022, I went to (3) in 2023 and then (4) in 2024. It's hard for me to imagine going back again. Indeed, I'm somewhat stuck in analysis-paralysis between building out a full DIY cockpit of a 4th generation jet like my Kerbal controller at the (3) level OR spending the equivalent amount of money on upgraded VR + 6D motion sim at the (5) level. Both would cost about the same to buy or make.
Add: The scenery in a fligthtsim just comes down to how much money you spent on your hardware. You can get the 4k experience in VR for about $5000 these days. Or you can DIY fabricate a complete F16 cockpit that would have cost millions to make thirty years ago.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Does free form data science count as an online game? How about AI collaborative alternative lifestyle creation? ERE forum participation? eBay arbitrage? Tinder as tourism? Day trading? Remote robotic guerilla gardening hijinks? Randomizing library app ebook selection?
I bought a Commodore VIC-20 in 1982 and created a game called Gypsy Fortune Teller for my 6 year old sister. Then I lost interest.
It seems to me that the options that provide rough mix of the virtual and the "real" might be most intriguing. I think virtual world can serve as substitute for tourism and maybe even live musical theater, but not for nature experience. Planting a seed in a crumpled fast food cup filled with parking lot runoff grit and rat poop is a better substitute for quality nature experience than anything virtual.
I bought a Commodore VIC-20 in 1982 and created a game called Gypsy Fortune Teller for my 6 year old sister. Then I lost interest.
It seems to me that the options that provide rough mix of the virtual and the "real" might be most intriguing. I think virtual world can serve as substitute for tourism and maybe even live musical theater, but not for nature experience. Planting a seed in a crumpled fast food cup filled with parking lot runoff grit and rat poop is a better substitute for quality nature experience than anything virtual.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Figuring out a good definition of what a "game" is is almost as difficult as coming up with a good definition of "life". These definitions are complex enough that it's more a matter of degree than whether something is or is not including in the category. (And of course, no rule without exceptions...)7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 5:14 pmDoes free form data science count as an online game? How about AI collaborative alternative lifestyle creation? ERE forum participation? eBay arbitrage? Tinder as tourism? Day trading? Remote robotic guerilla gardening hijinks? Randomizing library app ebook selection?
As a general rule, though, a game includes
- Rules (Add: generalized to a "a universe that functions in a certain way")
- Competition against other players (PvP) or against the environment (PvE) (Add: generalized to "a challenge")
- Some kind of scoring system that determines winners, losses, or success. (Add: generalized to seeing whether the challenge was met)
... or at least I think that's a good and functional definition that will capture 97%+ of what people commonly think of as games.
So from your list as I see it, my answer is:
free form data science? No
AI collaborative alternative lifestyle creation? No
ERE forum participation? No
eBay arbitrage? Yes
Tinder as tourism? No
Day trading? Yes
Remote robotic guerilla gardening hijinks? No
Randomizing library app ebook selection? No
Of course, all the "no"-answers can probably be gamified in some way, but they aren't games according to the above definition in the way they're typically approached. Add: It seems that games are goal-oriented rather than process-oriented. Also, you're probably going to say that competition is masculine energy and what about collaboration and the feminine energy? This might be my personal bias/perspective shining through though. I'm certainly aware that not everybody "plays to score the highest". Enter Carse or Bartle. OTOH, is a purely socializing experience like facebook an actual game?
More add: Scott2 beat me to it. Also see Bartle's taxonomy.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
A game can also offer space for play. It doesn't require competition, winning or losing. I know several people who've sunk over 1000 hours into animal crossing, for instance.
Yes, there are opportunities for competition, but they are only one play mechanic. I suppose one could argue arranging the island just as you like, then having friends visit, is a success mechanic.
But I think they see it as a means of comfort. A relaxing way of creating and sharing their happy space. Self expression even.
I think that's what will provide refuge as nature becomes inaccessible. COVID in fact drove dramatic success for animal crossing. My wife and I both spent several hundred hours, even celebrating holiday events while on lockdown.
Yes, there are opportunities for competition, but they are only one play mechanic. I suppose one could argue arranging the island just as you like, then having friends visit, is a success mechanic.
But I think they see it as a means of comfort. A relaxing way of creating and sharing their happy space. Self expression even.
I think that's what will provide refuge as nature becomes inaccessible. COVID in fact drove dramatic success for animal crossing. My wife and I both spent several hundred hours, even celebrating holiday events while on lockdown.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
@Scott2 - You're right. I was a bit too fast in my initial definitions. This just goes to show how hard it is to define what a game is or is not. Bartle's taxonomy is helpful here. I suspect the player's attitude/approach is also important. However, I think that will take the definition too far and to a useless place. Some may approach everything "as a game" (playful?) and some may take even the silliest things deadly seriously. I think it's worthwhile to try to make a distinction between the subject (player) and the object (game).
E.g. even if there's no competition (PvP), there still might be some [measurable] achievement in building up e.g. the number of animals collected or crossed, etc. (PvE). Dunno if Animal Crossing is at the point where none of the players really care about what they've built up in terms of collecting all the animals or however it works.
On a side-note: Ever tried Stardew Valley?
E.g. even if there's no competition (PvP), there still might be some [measurable] achievement in building up e.g. the number of animals collected or crossed, etc. (PvE). Dunno if Animal Crossing is at the point where none of the players really care about what they've built up in terms of collecting all the animals or however it works.
On a side-note: Ever tried Stardew Valley?
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Good guess, but I was actually going to go to subjective/objective. The shadow work that I am often sloppily engaged in on this forum is almost certainly more reflective of INTJ being the "shadow" of ENTP and vice-versa than feminine/masculine dichotomy. I know that my problem with fully inhabiting Integral/Systems/Yellow is due to shadow work I need to complete in my masculine energy at Level Orange/Modern, yet I also intuit that in order for ERE/ERE2 to fully inhabit the Holistic/Turquoise, it must complete some shadow work in the feminine energy at Level Green/Post-Modern. Thus, lacking full consciousness of my own needful shadow work, I have sometimes pointed to the "faults" I perceive with ERE as "cover." I do apologize.jacob wrote: Also, you're probably going to say that competition is masculine energy and what about collaboration and the feminine energy?
Anyways, another new thing I learned is that ENTP/INTP tend to root/focus their Ti subjective singular Idealism in the subjective plural "We" of Language/Culture (Ne,Fe, Si), whereas ENTJ/INTJ tends to root/focus their subjective singular Ni/Fi Idealism in the objective plural "Its" of Empiricism/Infrasture (Te,Se.) And this would also be clearly reflected in concept of "Game." I instantly went to Scott's thought that a game needs to be subjectively "fun" or found within the cultural concept of "play" in order to be fully defined. For example, your definition could include war with actual weapons as an option. So, although I grant that the subjective/cultural/semantic is inherentally squishy, first line striking the difference (or meta-rule of "game")might be agreed upon as whether or not the activity includes the likelihood of "dead babies."
Another inherent difference between NTP and NTJ is that NTP is almost instantly going to start looking for exceptions to the "rules" or trying to figure out how/where "luck" comes into the play. So, my second thought was that although games generally have rules, they are also often designed to be inclusive of "luck" to the extent that it makes sense in the alternative universe that is being modeled. The NTJ Strategist/Leader will likely prefer long-run strategic games of dominance with many levels such as 3-D chess tournament, whereas the NTP Explorer/Thinker will likely prefer games of expansive probability/possibility/analysis such as two-deck strip poker. The human who would prefer co-operative everyone is a winner type games is likely a type with Fe in first/second position (as opposed to third/fourth position of an NTP), probably either ESFJ (The Caregiver) or ISFJ (The Nurturer.) Unlike the majority of NTPs, I was also early moderately socialized towards the (non-competitive/non-aggressive)feminine gender at Blue/Orange/Green and only test 70% T vs F at most (also XX genotype and phenotype associated with high estrogen exposure in womb), so I can also enjoy co-operative games (or maybe not games?) such as Church Lady Potluck or Tutor/Hug the Disadvantaged Tots Up To Grade Level/Smile and Give Them Warm Winter Coats or Community Clean All the Trash From the Riverbank Ecosystem. The humans who would prefer games to be combatative as well as competitive (hockey, demolition derby/PubG) would likely have Se in primary/secondary position which is more likely to be associated with XY genotype, testosterone exposure in womb, and/or early socialization towards masculine gender. Of course, gender socialization changes as culture/society changes, so these "types' are drifting in alignment with likelihood of randomly happening upon a scene in a midbrow Netflix series (The Lincoln Lawyer) in which a woman who has clearly won at the Game of Pilates throws a man she just met that evening across the room and on to her bed while simultaneously ripping open his dress shirt. (My old-fashioned-girl thought being that Netflix should have flicked a Do Not Try This At Home warning on the screen at that juncture.) And the female warrior is obviously also a common video game character.
A final difference between ENTP and INTJ is that ENTP generalist (also the ENFP Inspirer) is very much towards "make work fun/make play pay" unlike the more disciplined and conscienscious INTJ, so more likely to automatically attempt to "gamify" or take a playful approach to many activities, such as all of those I suggested on my list in last post. Still, the "dead babies" line in the sand is held in quite general form, so, for instance, I would only play the game of Tinder Tourist with those whom I intuited/knew/clear-contracted to be in "the Big Boys" league and only within a context where any other "babies" were already tucked safely in crib (Yet another interesting new thing I recently learned about ENTP being that we take parenthood/responsibility-to-the-universal-young much more seriously than marriage/rule/romance-based-responsibility-to-other-adults-only= contract-to-be-freely/openly-broken-if/when-gameplaydone & personpuzzlesolved.) Also, the very interesting thing about my recent Solo Challenge Game of Free Form Data Science was that I think it may have given me just an inkling of function in Ni vision-strategy! I am on a roll in the game of self-development! Watch out Level Teal and/or Analogous Wheaton Level, here I come!
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
I wanted to highlight the play dynamic, because I completely missed it as a young gamer. I'd fail to consider if I was having fun, as I focused entirely on whatever I saw as the win condition. With wisdom, now if I see a game taking me in that direction, I'm out. Joy is a prerequisite for ongoing participation. I'll happily replay with a suboptimal but enjoyable strategy. If the game elicits anger, no thanks.
I have never tried Stardew valley. From what I've read, it's the same mechanic as animal crossing, only more compelling.
However - a big part of the animal crossing hook, was joining the larger the cultural movement upon release. My wife played too, her sister, her sister's best friend, and our niece. We discovered the game features and time locked events together, with the world even. When we couldn't visit in person, we connected in our virtual homes.
That broader connection really shifts the dynamic. I think there's a level of accessibility required for nourishing cultural transition. Leaving loved ones behind detracts from the shift. Doing it together is what justifies paying the new release premium. The game made permanent deposits in many of my relationships.
I think joining Pokemon go at launch offered similar potential, though I missed that ride.
I've had more isolated community experiences with Battle Royale games - fall guys for instance. The content drops in seasons. With each season, you decide to recommit to the community. Skins are earned as trophies of your participation, with unlocks specific to the season. So a shared culture unfolds. It's meaningless to those who aren't playing though.
I've avoided MMO's because the culture can be so compelling. I'm nearly certain I'd find it better than real life. Only the people I want to connect with aren't there. There's a good chance I'd let my brain and body rot. And love every minute of it, until I looked up to survey the damage
A shift I've encountered over the past 5 years is games where completion of a prolonged tutorial is the "win" condition. When one "beats" animal crossing, they've unlocked the play mechanics and demonstrated understanding to use them. Some opt out there, but the game has just started in earnest.
Slay the Spire and Hades repeat this pattern, though they lack the in game community. Online communities are strong though, due to the resulting depth of play mechanics. This pattern has grown on me, as the "post game" offers extensive strategic growth. Achievements assist in discovery of the depth.
I have never tried Stardew valley. From what I've read, it's the same mechanic as animal crossing, only more compelling.
However - a big part of the animal crossing hook, was joining the larger the cultural movement upon release. My wife played too, her sister, her sister's best friend, and our niece. We discovered the game features and time locked events together, with the world even. When we couldn't visit in person, we connected in our virtual homes.
That broader connection really shifts the dynamic. I think there's a level of accessibility required for nourishing cultural transition. Leaving loved ones behind detracts from the shift. Doing it together is what justifies paying the new release premium. The game made permanent deposits in many of my relationships.
I think joining Pokemon go at launch offered similar potential, though I missed that ride.
I've had more isolated community experiences with Battle Royale games - fall guys for instance. The content drops in seasons. With each season, you decide to recommit to the community. Skins are earned as trophies of your participation, with unlocks specific to the season. So a shared culture unfolds. It's meaningless to those who aren't playing though.
I've avoided MMO's because the culture can be so compelling. I'm nearly certain I'd find it better than real life. Only the people I want to connect with aren't there. There's a good chance I'd let my brain and body rot. And love every minute of it, until I looked up to survey the damage
A shift I've encountered over the past 5 years is games where completion of a prolonged tutorial is the "win" condition. When one "beats" animal crossing, they've unlocked the play mechanics and demonstrated understanding to use them. Some opt out there, but the game has just started in earnest.
Slay the Spire and Hades repeat this pattern, though they lack the in game community. Online communities are strong though, due to the resulting depth of play mechanics. This pattern has grown on me, as the "post game" offers extensive strategic growth. Achievements assist in discovery of the depth.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
The discussion about play reminds me of this video from Folding Ideas that goes into those ideas of play and the communities and social expectations that form within a game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU.
As for my experience, I generally stick more to single-player games where I play a game and then I'm done playing it (I don't think I've spent over like 250 hours in any one game), but I also have sometimes run into the issue where I optimize the fun out of the game, like what Scott mentioned at the start of his last post. I think the advance in information accessibility certainly plays a big part in this.
Now, it's basically expected for any sufficiently-popular modern game that within days of release, the answers to every puzzle, tactics to fight any boss, best units/weapons/powers to use/upgrade, etc., will be posted online in a wiki with youtube tutorials likely also available. As mentioned in the Folding Ideas video, there may even eventually be 3rd party add-ons to make the game easier to play that become basically necessary at high levels of play.
The game where I experienced the worst experience of this was Fate/Grand Order, notably a gacha game where the English version of the game is basically two years behind the Japanese version. The former meant that there was valuable, limited currency (SQ) that could be spent to acquire new characters, and (barring impossibly good luck) you cannot get enough currency to get every character, or likely even all the characters you want, without spending real money on the game. The latter meant there was basically full information about when new characters would release, how good they were, odds of obtaining them, how much of the limited currency could be gathered without spending by x time, etc. The combination of scarcity within the game yet surplus of information set off pretty powerful things in my brain and soon I was building spreadsheets about how to prioritize my SQ to get characters when, what in-game materials I should farm in the meantime so I could upgrade the new characters once I got them, and other things that weren't conducive to me enjoying the game.
Fortunately, the good ending is that Elden Ring came out and I loved it and realized "wow, I'm not having fun in this gacha game and it's not very good" and stopped playing.
As for my experience, I generally stick more to single-player games where I play a game and then I'm done playing it (I don't think I've spent over like 250 hours in any one game), but I also have sometimes run into the issue where I optimize the fun out of the game, like what Scott mentioned at the start of his last post. I think the advance in information accessibility certainly plays a big part in this.
Now, it's basically expected for any sufficiently-popular modern game that within days of release, the answers to every puzzle, tactics to fight any boss, best units/weapons/powers to use/upgrade, etc., will be posted online in a wiki with youtube tutorials likely also available. As mentioned in the Folding Ideas video, there may even eventually be 3rd party add-ons to make the game easier to play that become basically necessary at high levels of play.
The game where I experienced the worst experience of this was Fate/Grand Order, notably a gacha game where the English version of the game is basically two years behind the Japanese version. The former meant that there was valuable, limited currency (SQ) that could be spent to acquire new characters, and (barring impossibly good luck) you cannot get enough currency to get every character, or likely even all the characters you want, without spending real money on the game. The latter meant there was basically full information about when new characters would release, how good they were, odds of obtaining them, how much of the limited currency could be gathered without spending by x time, etc. The combination of scarcity within the game yet surplus of information set off pretty powerful things in my brain and soon I was building spreadsheets about how to prioritize my SQ to get characters when, what in-game materials I should farm in the meantime so I could upgrade the new characters once I got them, and other things that weren't conducive to me enjoying the game.
Fortunately, the good ending is that Elden Ring came out and I loved it and realized "wow, I'm not having fun in this gacha game and it's not very good" and stopped playing.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
I think I need to elaborate somewhat on this definition.
Competition can be understood either in terms of "winning by making someone else lose", that is, the object is to do better than someone else, aka PvP. In my mind the definition also includes "mastering the environment". Competition is probably the wrong word here: In this case, it's more about achievement.
Typically both will have some kind of metric. It may be as simple as win/lose, as normal as some numeric score, or as complicated as "how much of the map has been explored" or "how big is your empire". If there's no PvP action, competition can only happen indirectly by e.g. comparing scores on leaderboards.
Compare a boxing match, which is PvP, with a swimming competition, which is PvE at least to the first order. The former focuses a lot on "studying the specific opponent", whereas the later often contains phrases and attitudes that "I'm mainly competing against myself" e.g. by trying to get a faster time.
In contrast, something like facebook or twitter completely lacks this aspect and as such I would not consider social media to be a game. I mean one can vaguely gamify these social activities by striving for maximum likes or followers, but overall that is far from the main purpose of engaging. (Ditto, one can make up one's own metrics, like "how far can I spread this meme" or "can I get this particular conspiracy on the front page of actual media", but again that is not the purpose of facebook or twitter just like a purpose of a hammer is not to club someone on the head.)
I'm working on a post that covers Prosperous Universe (discussed in one of the OP threads, the EVE online one I believe). It's sometimes hard to tell whether that game is a social club for people who happen to be into economics simulations OR an economics simulation/collaboration where the chat function is rather important for advanced gameplay.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
@jacob:
Well, a beauty contest has rules, competition, and scoring, so is also a game under your schema. Social media is often harmful for very young women, because it does to some extent function like a beauty contest, with very clear metrics such as "thinness." It's hard to get away from the fact that core biological competition is either for survival or sex. Social games can be about survival (networking for career move comes to mind), but they are more often related to sex. I think maybe you have to walk a mile in the shoes of a 13 year old girl to fully ken this. I mean, it's absolutely true that boys are also judged in terms of their appearance and social functioning at that age, but for them it's maybe 25% of the equation, whereas for the average girl it's more like 75%. And it's also the case that there is still in late Modernity USA, very little benefit to be derived in the sexual marketplace for any achievement badges earned by females beyond those typically judged in "beauty contest."
This aspect of reality is also more critical to frugality/resource conservation than it may superficially seem. For example, it's a significant factor in how people are able to functionally share resources, because less than fully mature females will often exclude females who are significantly more or less attractive from what otherwise might be a fairly cooperative group. For example, my third sister, who is very social and chubby since early childhood, would "joke" about how she had to hang out with the other fat Moms associated with an exclusive charter school in Chicago. And the Mom group you are part of will almost certainly influence the resources to which your children have access.
Another example would be when a friend of mine talked me into joining a book group mostly composed of women who were older, wealthier, and more conservative than me. We rotated from house to house each month, so there was some competition in terms of food/wine served, but the thing that really struck me was how often these women, who were mostly employed outside the home themselves, would mention something their husband bought for them, as in "Howard just insisted on the marble counter tops for our kitchen renovation." It was like I was back in the land of the high school "bipsies" bragging about friendship rings.
Well, a beauty contest has rules, competition, and scoring, so is also a game under your schema. Social media is often harmful for very young women, because it does to some extent function like a beauty contest, with very clear metrics such as "thinness." It's hard to get away from the fact that core biological competition is either for survival or sex. Social games can be about survival (networking for career move comes to mind), but they are more often related to sex. I think maybe you have to walk a mile in the shoes of a 13 year old girl to fully ken this. I mean, it's absolutely true that boys are also judged in terms of their appearance and social functioning at that age, but for them it's maybe 25% of the equation, whereas for the average girl it's more like 75%. And it's also the case that there is still in late Modernity USA, very little benefit to be derived in the sexual marketplace for any achievement badges earned by females beyond those typically judged in "beauty contest."
This aspect of reality is also more critical to frugality/resource conservation than it may superficially seem. For example, it's a significant factor in how people are able to functionally share resources, because less than fully mature females will often exclude females who are significantly more or less attractive from what otherwise might be a fairly cooperative group. For example, my third sister, who is very social and chubby since early childhood, would "joke" about how she had to hang out with the other fat Moms associated with an exclusive charter school in Chicago. And the Mom group you are part of will almost certainly influence the resources to which your children have access.
Another example would be when a friend of mine talked me into joining a book group mostly composed of women who were older, wealthier, and more conservative than me. We rotated from house to house each month, so there was some competition in terms of food/wine served, but the thing that really struck me was how often these women, who were mostly employed outside the home themselves, would mention something their husband bought for them, as in "Howard just insisted on the marble counter tops for our kitchen renovation." It was like I was back in the land of the high school "bipsies" bragging about friendship rings.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
I've had bouts with gaming and remember wishing I had a holodeck before virtual reality was a thing. My gut reaction is that I'm skeptical gaming/virtual experience could ever completely replace interaction with the real world, but it could probably become a better than nothing option in certain dystopias.
I come at this as someone who has very little inherent wanderlust--travel is just a necessary evil to get me from one place to another, and the draw of what I can do in the other place has to be pretty strong for me to even consider the 'cost'. I do value being outdoors and immersed in environments that are more steeped in the world sans humans than human modified. The things I prize tend to be the sensory/interface aspects of it. Fresh air, sunshine, the feel of unpaved ground, the other forms of life encountered, the exercise, etc. I suppose some day they will come up with a way to trick our brains into an equivalent experience, a Matrix of sorts, perhaps even with the biological/physiological benefits baked in.
When it comes to gaming I tend to be drawn to RTS-type games, although I've never really found one that truly resonates with my temperament. My peak game years were ~2000-2007, around the time my kids were interested in them too. I also tended to prefer computer opponents to human opponents, maybe because I was way behind on getting access to high speed internet connections. Maybe in the last 17-20 years AI has advanced enough to make computer opponents more interesting for a longer time. Back in the day they were fun for a while, but it didn't take long to figure out and anticipate what the computer would do, and a strategy to beat them could be used an infinite number of times. I also get weary of all the overhead/busywork those games required. Having to tell every peon in the game what to do on a constant basis distracted me from what I was interested in, which was typically the military conflict part of it. I suppose I was looking for more of an experience than clicking a mouse or twiddling a joystick. At one point controllers became complicated enough I began to dislike them, especially in first-person games. That I was already in my 30s before I encountered them probably left me with insufficient neural plasticity to develop the dexterity in my hands and connect it to what my eyes were seeing on a screen. At this point it's hard seeing myself getting back into gaming. My working years caused me to prioritize mental activity over physical, so I'm content at this stage of life to let physical activity be the priority, and that's likely the best thing I can do for my ongoing cognitive health anyway.
I come at this as someone who has very little inherent wanderlust--travel is just a necessary evil to get me from one place to another, and the draw of what I can do in the other place has to be pretty strong for me to even consider the 'cost'. I do value being outdoors and immersed in environments that are more steeped in the world sans humans than human modified. The things I prize tend to be the sensory/interface aspects of it. Fresh air, sunshine, the feel of unpaved ground, the other forms of life encountered, the exercise, etc. I suppose some day they will come up with a way to trick our brains into an equivalent experience, a Matrix of sorts, perhaps even with the biological/physiological benefits baked in.
When it comes to gaming I tend to be drawn to RTS-type games, although I've never really found one that truly resonates with my temperament. My peak game years were ~2000-2007, around the time my kids were interested in them too. I also tended to prefer computer opponents to human opponents, maybe because I was way behind on getting access to high speed internet connections. Maybe in the last 17-20 years AI has advanced enough to make computer opponents more interesting for a longer time. Back in the day they were fun for a while, but it didn't take long to figure out and anticipate what the computer would do, and a strategy to beat them could be used an infinite number of times. I also get weary of all the overhead/busywork those games required. Having to tell every peon in the game what to do on a constant basis distracted me from what I was interested in, which was typically the military conflict part of it. I suppose I was looking for more of an experience than clicking a mouse or twiddling a joystick. At one point controllers became complicated enough I began to dislike them, especially in first-person games. That I was already in my 30s before I encountered them probably left me with insufficient neural plasticity to develop the dexterity in my hands and connect it to what my eyes were seeing on a screen. At this point it's hard seeing myself getting back into gaming. My working years caused me to prioritize mental activity over physical, so I'm content at this stage of life to let physical activity be the priority, and that's likely the best thing I can do for my ongoing cognitive health anyway.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
I'd strongly recommend checking out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWVqfdG3uTY (AI War Fleet Command, old post of mine here: viewtopic.php?p=269838#p269838 You can get it on steam for $10 or probably <<$5 if you wait for one of their ongoing sales where prices drop by 30-90%. The Thanksgiving sale is next, then the Xmas sale. There's also an AI War 2 which I haven't tried. Ostensibly it simplified some of the more annoying features of AI War). The AI is considered impossible to beat as nobody has yet to beat it on level 10 (out of 10). It's not true AI but more of a decentralized simulation of AI. I forget exactly how it works, but effectively, the AI will never attack or defend the same way twice. If you try something and fail, you can't just come back and try again with a larger force like you can in most "decision-tree"-based bot enemies.IlliniDave wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:38 amWhen it comes to gaming I tend to be drawn to RTS-type games, although I've never really found one that truly resonates with my temperament. My peak game years were ~2000-2007, around the time my kids were interested in them too. I also tended to prefer computer opponents to human opponents, maybe because I was way behind on getting access to high speed internet connections. Maybe in the last 17-20 years AI has advanced enough to make computer opponents more interesting for a longer time. Back in the day they were fun for a while, but it didn't take long to figure out and anticipate what the computer would do, and a strategy to beat them could be used an infinite number of times. I also get weary of all the overhead/busywork those games required. Having to tell every peon in the game what to do on a constant basis distracted me from what I was interested in, which was typically the military conflict part of it.
I highly suspect that enjoyment comes down to individual minds/neurotransmitter levels. AI War definitely engages my brain in a way that being in nature, surrounded by green, feeling the sun shine on my skin and also feeling the sting of mosquitos on my skin, sweating, and generally being miserable doesn't even come close to. It leaves my brain zonked in a way that yacht racing (the most intense "nature" experience I've ever engaged in) only approaches. But, yeah, very much an eye of the beholder thing. It takes a 20 mile march or some paintball gun battles for me to "feel" being in nature. (Something something INTJ and Se ...)
Or... try World of Warships. I think it's slow enough that a lot of the tactics depend on strategy. It's free to play ( https://store.steampowered.com/app/5529 ... _Warships/ or see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jyLIm ... aNmdaEtfEU for that soothing Bob Ross like voice. I usually play UK or American light cruisers (CL) ... which kinda fits my temperament. It's almost as if every nation/ship-type fits a personal temperament. There are some 600+ different ships.) if you don't mind grinding. The game is considered "easy to learn but hard to master". It's my personal favorite and also the favorite of middle aged dudes. I play using a network cable connected to the router on the second-slowest data plan (I think we have comcast, not sure, that's DW's department). As long as you're not on dial-up, you'll be fine---dropped connections is the biggest worry. There's no game-economy and you don't need to have supreme twitch skills to do well. I'm an average player (like the 50.something% percentile) by total ranking but with a good win rate (I play to the team objective unlike many of the asshats who are just playing for personal glory ), an average damage ratio, and a below average kill ratio (lack of twitch of maybe it's just because I playing ships with slow ballistics so my shells always arrive 1 second after the guy who got the kill). You'll be playing against humans rather than bots.IlliniDave wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 6:38 amI suppose I was looking for more of an experience than clicking a mouse or twiddling a joystick. At one point controllers became complicated enough I began to dislike them, especially in first-person games. That I was already in my 30s before I encountered them probably left me with insufficient neural plasticity to develop the dexterity in my hands and connect it to what my eyes were seeing on a screen. At this point it's hard seeing myself getting back into gaming. My working years caused me to prioritize mental activity over physical, so I'm content at this stage of life to let physical activity be the priority, and that's likely the best thing I can do for my ongoing cognitive health anyway.
After playing against humans, there's no going back for me. Humans are sneaky in a way that bots just aren't. Some players do like the destruction-fests that is going up against a fleet of idiotic boots in Co-Op or Asymmetric and that's possible too. I occasionally run into people with 10000+ battles in the Tier4 bot world. More experienced players refer to those tiers as "seal clubbing" but hey, if they're having fun... One thing I really enjoy about playing against humans is that there are many who are better than me. This gives me something to strive for. Put it in other words... with old RTS bot opponents, you probably figured out how to win after 30-50 hours of playing. Whereas against humans, I have 600+ hours of experience which has gotten me to a point of "more helpful than not" when it comes to being on the time, something which I consider an achievement, but nowhere near God-Tier.
I would say in terms of mental exercise, gaming does beat crossword puzzles and bingo. Not just in seniors, but also in younglings.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
My recommendation is Civilization V (with all the DLCs). Many people probably played Civ I or Civ II in their youth. The game has come a long way since then. It has multiple intersting systems (trade, complex diplomacy, religions, ideologies, public opinion, culture, tourism, and of course war) that are tightly intervowen. There's plenty to master - it took me around 600 hours before I started beating the game fairly regularly at the penultimate difficulty level (I have yet to try the highest setting). Could be faster if all you want to do is get better, but I suspect it would take away some of the fun (playing piano to improve vs playing piano to enjoy the music). There's plenty of people that have 1-2k hours logged in - it's a game you can enjoy for many years.
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Re: Jacob's gaming journal
This is a really interesting topic as one of the outcomes of ERE could be to engage in play very seriously as an adult. I have put on VR headsets and been strapped beneath a plane flying over North Korea. This is a form of tourism inaccessible to my embodied self, at least with my current risk tolerance. The level of visual stimulation was almost entirely immersive and this was a few years ago now. I'm sure the pixel counts have gotten even higher since then.
I'm sure those of us who do enjoy travel have noticed how many people approach it through the screens of their smartphones. This observation is nearly a full-blown cliche...
However, I think it points to a difficulty many people have with tourism. What am I supposed to do with this experience? Feeling unequal to the challenge I take a photo so I can assimilate it later and at least prove I've been here. Or maybe other people really do experience a distributed cognition where "in my phone = in my brain."
One of the appeals of ERE for me is that opens up a lot of location independence. You can avoid doing a tourists sights, sounds and signature meals type of agenda that is practically enforced on you if you have the pressure to make an experience of 10 days. Slower travel allows long bus trips, visits to the grocery store, the mundane business of life but now the negotiating them is novel and challenging, a game suddenly! The optimization that living in one place allows also reduces the challenge level. Grocery shopping at home is like defeating an unintelligent bot. I barely think and certainly by now the glory has worn off.
I suppose some of this comes down to where your locus of "reality" falls. For jacob it sounds as if the interior experience is paramount so a videogame that is truly engrossing is made real. It takes some supernormal stimulus to impress the external reality into his experience. For someone like myself, I am much more porous WRT my internal and external realities. I would play Civ type games where hours would be spent immersed in colonizing a planet but eventually I'd step back, see the hours spent on it and feel a vertiginous grief at "all the time I just wasted!"
This is not a judgement from me but the experience of finding myself in different polarities of reality or immersion. Immersion in the game, largely an interior experience, to be ejected and immersed in the world where all the achievements of the game are trivialized suddenly. In short, the games I play likely need to woven with the fabric of my life and surroundings to be truly fulfilling but that is just me.
I do think maintaining there skill to play videogames as they evolve is an important investment. I imagine that late old age care is going to be revolutionized by videogames, immersive VR experiences and the like with the generations that have grown adept with these technologies. At that stage of life I'd definitely want my VR headset to enjoy an opera though I hope I'd still shuffle around the block and find pleasure in that too.
I'm sure those of us who do enjoy travel have noticed how many people approach it through the screens of their smartphones. This observation is nearly a full-blown cliche...
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ChatGPT, write a newspaper column by a bitter boomer visiting Paris who is despairing at a younger generation that is just taking selfies all the time. Contrast with the author's formative visit in their college years. End with a convoluted scene of a group of attractive young people take a photo on front of a landmark observed by our author with condescension betrayed somewhat by a longing to be young again.
One of the appeals of ERE for me is that opens up a lot of location independence. You can avoid doing a tourists sights, sounds and signature meals type of agenda that is practically enforced on you if you have the pressure to make an experience of 10 days. Slower travel allows long bus trips, visits to the grocery store, the mundane business of life but now the negotiating them is novel and challenging, a game suddenly! The optimization that living in one place allows also reduces the challenge level. Grocery shopping at home is like defeating an unintelligent bot. I barely think and certainly by now the glory has worn off.
I suppose some of this comes down to where your locus of "reality" falls. For jacob it sounds as if the interior experience is paramount so a videogame that is truly engrossing is made real. It takes some supernormal stimulus to impress the external reality into his experience. For someone like myself, I am much more porous WRT my internal and external realities. I would play Civ type games where hours would be spent immersed in colonizing a planet but eventually I'd step back, see the hours spent on it and feel a vertiginous grief at "all the time I just wasted!"
This is not a judgement from me but the experience of finding myself in different polarities of reality or immersion. Immersion in the game, largely an interior experience, to be ejected and immersed in the world where all the achievements of the game are trivialized suddenly. In short, the games I play likely need to woven with the fabric of my life and surroundings to be truly fulfilling but that is just me.
I do think maintaining there skill to play videogames as they evolve is an important investment. I imagine that late old age care is going to be revolutionized by videogames, immersive VR experiences and the like with the generations that have grown adept with these technologies. At that stage of life I'd definitely want my VR headset to enjoy an opera though I hope I'd still shuffle around the block and find pleasure in that too.
Re: Jacob's gaming journal
Your post reminded me of a video I saw a few years ago of a middle-aged guy who was living in his car after getting Covid-laid off from an IT job, and the lockdowns were still going on so there wasn't much to do. But his passion was flying drones around with a VR headset on. He'd go to an empty-because-lockdown park and fly his drone around, sitting in his car with his headset on. To be honest it looked fun. Easy to imagine some form of drone-based 'games' either solo or multiplayer. I wonder how that would feel to brains prone to have the "agh I just wasted my day" reaction you described.