How do I retire as quickly as possible??

[Jean]

But is an apprenticeship a good option in the us? Would you be paid during it? Would it lead to a good income?

Getting a degree taught me that i could learn anything. You could probably learn that in less than five year trough other medium.

@fox
Why do you yikes at the idea of dating 20 yo in your forties? They are allowed to vote, drive, buy weapons, make children. It's safe to assume that they are mature enough to decide if they want to date an older person or not.
I wouldn't want someone to date me because of my money, but I don't have enough for that unless i target really poor countries, which is hard to do unknowingly.

[jacob]

But is an apprenticeship a good option in the us? Would you be paid during it? Would it lead to a good income?

It looks good on paper. Just like incomes in Albania are not the same as incomes in Switzerland, incomes in the US vary depending on where you live. A carpenter apprentice in Illinois (a middle ranked/average state in the US by almost every conceivable measure) makes about $18/hr. After four years one becomes a journeyman who can do independent work. They make about $23/hr. If you keep at it, you become a master carpenter after 10-12 years of that making $28/hr. Compare to the median US salary per person of $38,000/year. In short, you'll be right in the middle of the middle class in terms of incomes very quickly without any student debt.

If invested wisely instead of wasted on a brand new truck and other shenanigans, this is definitely enough to hit ERE within 5 years since it pays more than what a typical physicist at a similar experience level makes at a typical university.

This career would further put you in the "working man" quadrant in the ERE book which leaves the option to semi-retire picking only the kind of jobs you want, work seasonally, and be very geographically flexible. (Indeed, it might require you to be so, so this can be considered a feature or a bug depending on desires). When I lived in an RV a lot of my neighbors were carpenters, electricians, plumbers, ... pulling a 5th wheel behind their working truck from job to job. One of the more permanent residents split his year behind hunting and fishing in California and working for a few months in the oilfields of Alaska to pay for the rest of the year.

[Jean]

It sounds about as good as it is in switzerland, so besides plan that require exceptionnal luck or skills, it is probably the fastest way to retire as well.

[AxelHeyst]

One of the more permanent residents split his year behind hunting and fishing in California and working for a few months in the oilfields of Alaska to pay for the rest of the year.

One of my roommates in ~2012 was a seasonal Alaskan fisherman for a few months a year, and then just chilled in Oakland the rest of the year. IIRC he made something like $30k in those couple months.

[zbigi]

On the other hand, if the job is brutal enough that people watch it on TV for entertainment... it must be pretty brutal.

[AxelHeyst]

Yep. For certain people the brutality is a feature, not a bug. I have another acquaintance who does a similar thing now but in the off season she climbs in the southwest. Doesn't sound like a bad life to me, to be honest.

My roommate friend did tell me that once, after his regular fishing stint was over, he stayed on for a few more weeks to work a gig collecting sea cucumbers (I'm pretty sure). The job was to dive down a few tens of feet to the sea floor and pick up sea cucumbers and put them in a bag. Every sea cucumber he picked up was $1 for him. All the divers breathed on tubes that went back to a central apparatus that every once in a while malfunctioned. He said we was taking a smoke break up on the boat, wearing his marginally-thick suit, shivering, while the snow fell, and went "wtf am I doing?" and then the next day he flew back to CA.

[jacob]

Doesn't sound like a bad life to me, to be honest.

It's all fun and games until someone gets a finger chewed off in an open gear box. Seriously though, the impact of physically demanding work does tend to accumulate on the body. My sample size is admittedly small but I don't know any old tradesmen who move well or isn't complaining about some kind of chronic pain (knees, back, ...) It's a hard life if they didn't save and are still forced to work in a physically demanding job at age 50+. Everything hurts... Best to make master/boss/supervisor level by age 40 and have younglings do the strenuous type of work.

[Slevin]

They make about $23/hr. If you keep at it, you become a master carpenter after 10-12 years of that making $28/hr.

One of my neighbor's sons is a master carpenter. He says makes about $150k per year here. That tracks what I found online. The COL is definitely much higher here, but almost 3x the wages seems like a lot.

[jacob]

@Slevin - Union vs nonunion accounts for some of the difference (~50%), but more importantly, the particular specialization matters a lot. Remodeling and trimwork pays rather more than framing or millwork for example. The numbers I listed were the median nonunion numbers. Union work tends to be better in effectively all dimensions except it typically has a waiting list to get in. Funny story: My cousin used to be a tool and die maker and the millworkers studied at the same school. Their nickname was "fingerless"

[thef0x]

@Jean, no ill feelings intended, just a personal preference I suppose. For me, there's something to be said about life experience, specifically aging, that is important to experience together. Insert the argument "it's how you've lived your years not the years you've lived" here. I get it -- but I do think literal years on the planet carries some meaning.

If you balk at the idea of 70 year old's dating 20 year old's, then to some degree, you understand my point. I guess if you don't think there's anything particularly off-putting about that kind of relationship, any appeal I'll make here won't be meaningful. But if there is a limit in your mind, then I suppose I'm just suggesting a tighter band of age that aligns with one's desires.

As I stated earlier, I do think life projects have limited timelines. Having children at 70 is, in my mind, arguably immoral, for example. Playing sports is another obvious example; certainly our physical biology limits our capacities based on our age.

Fortunately in the western world, you're free to do as you please in this regard, so have at! But I know I would not be satisfied in a relationship with someone with 20 years less life experience than myself. Having some fun, if you will, sure, but a deep connection.. I'd say the odds are not stacked in my favor there on both sides of the equation --> a 20s something tends to not look for a 40s something as well and similar to me, if they did, I'd be a bit concerned about what that says about them.

All personal preference here. Appreciate the opportunity to chew on my intuitions

[7Wannabe5]

If you balk at the idea of 70 year old's dating 20 year old's

Well, since I very briefly "dated" a man in his 20s when I was in my 50s, I would offer up the list of "pros" compiled by my fellow eNTP Benjamin Franklin:

In all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:

1. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor’d with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.

2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc’d may be attended with much Inconvenience.

4. Because thro’ more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin’d to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.

7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.

8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!”

Actually, although/because our shared temperamental disposition inclines my reasoning in the realm of relationships to be somewhat akin to Ben's, I would suggest that all other things being equal (as is seldom the case in reality), and given the 21st century cultural freedom to engage in solo polyamorous practice, acquiring one peer partner, one older partner, and one younger partner might be optimal. The downside of limiting your intimate relationships to only age peers is that you might find yourselves to some extent "locked in the 1980s together." IOW, the fact that a peer relationship is the sort of relationship in which you are likely to feel most comfortable may also speak to the challenges it allows you to avoid or the perspective to which you have limited yourself.

Similarly, there is also no reason why one couldn't enact a mix of lifestyle narratives conventionally assigned to a given decade of one's life in any or every decade of one's life. IOW, lifestyle design can be approached through an iterative/agile methodology as readily as a more structural/waterfall methodology. The way to "retire as quickly as possible" can be imagined as similar to a first iteration towards "minimum viable product" and it's also the case that climbing Maslow's Hierarchy towards "self-actualization" and beyond can (and often is) be achieved within the cycle of single day.

It is true that one's vigor decreases with age, but experience informs us that it would likely be best to knock boots with younger "buddy" or new-tech-oriented grad school assignment in the morning after second cup of coffee, enjoy an early dinner in the afternoon lull with an older lover or classic work of literature, and then hang-out "back home" in the evening with your peer partner or a bingeable bit of media. Mastering the "art of the nap" may allow for some further flexibility, but it has been my experience that any attempt to "keep up" with a lover or a task more than 15 years your junior after 11 pm in the evening will exhaust you to the extent that you will likely appear/feel like a crypt-dweller much of the following day.