How do I retire as quickly as possible??

[Jean]

But is an apprenticeship a good option in the us? Would you be paid during it? Would it lead to a good income?

Getting a degree taught me that i could learn anything. You could probably learn that in less than five year trough other medium.

@fox
Why do you yikes at the idea of dating 20 yo in your forties? They are allowed to vote, drive, buy weapons, make children. It's safe to assume that they are mature enough to decide if they want to date an older person or not.
I wouldn't want someone to date me because of my money, but I don't have enough for that unless i target really poor countries, which is hard to do unknowingly.

[jacob]

But is an apprenticeship a good option in the us? Would you be paid during it? Would it lead to a good income?

It looks good on paper. Just like incomes in Albania are not the same as incomes in Switzerland, incomes in the US vary depending on where you live. A carpenter apprentice in Illinois (a middle ranked/average state in the US by almost every conceivable measure) makes about $18/hr. After four years one becomes a journeyman who can do independent work. They make about $23/hr. If you keep at it, you become a master carpenter after 10-12 years of that making $28/hr. Compare to the median US salary per person of $38,000/year. In short, you'll be right in the middle of the middle class in terms of incomes very quickly without any student debt.

If invested wisely instead of wasted on a brand new truck and other shenanigans, this is definitely enough to hit ERE within 5 years since it pays more than what a typical physicist at a similar experience level makes at a typical university.

This career would further put you in the "working man" quadrant in the ERE book which leaves the option to semi-retire picking only the kind of jobs you want, work seasonally, and be very geographically flexible. (Indeed, it might require you to be so, so this can be considered a feature or a bug depending on desires). When I lived in an RV a lot of my neighbors were carpenters, electricians, plumbers, ... pulling a 5th wheel behind their working truck from job to job. One of the more permanent residents split his year behind hunting and fishing in California and working for a few months in the oilfields of Alaska to pay for the rest of the year.

[Jean]

It sounds about as good as it is in switzerland, so besides plan that require exceptionnal luck or skills, it is probably the fastest way to retire as well.

[AxelHeyst]

One of the more permanent residents split his year behind hunting and fishing in California and working for a few months in the oilfields of Alaska to pay for the rest of the year.

One of my roommates in ~2012 was a seasonal Alaskan fisherman for a few months a year, and then just chilled in Oakland the rest of the year. IIRC he made something like $30k in those couple months.

[zbigi]

On the other hand, if the job is brutal enough that people watch it on TV for entertainment... it must be pretty brutal.

[AxelHeyst]

Yep. For certain people the brutality is a feature, not a bug. I have another acquaintance who does a similar thing now but in the off season she climbs in the southwest. Doesn't sound like a bad life to me, to be honest.

My roommate friend did tell me that once, after his regular fishing stint was over, he stayed on for a few more weeks to work a gig collecting sea cucumbers (I'm pretty sure). The job was to dive down a few tens of feet to the sea floor and pick up sea cucumbers and put them in a bag. Every sea cucumber he picked up was $1 for him. All the divers breathed on tubes that went back to a central apparatus that every once in a while malfunctioned. He said we was taking a smoke break up on the boat, wearing his marginally-thick suit, shivering, while the snow fell, and went "wtf am I doing?" and then the next day he flew back to CA.

[jacob]

Doesn't sound like a bad life to me, to be honest.

It's all fun and games until someone gets a finger chewed off in an open gear box. Seriously though, the impact of physically demanding work does tend to accumulate on the body. My sample size is admittedly small but I don't know any old tradesmen who move well or isn't complaining about some kind of chronic pain (knees, back, ...) It's a hard life if they didn't save and are still forced to work in a physically demanding job at age 50+. Everything hurts... Best to make master/boss/supervisor level by age 40 and have younglings do the strenuous type of work.

[Slevin]

They make about $23/hr. If you keep at it, you become a master carpenter after 10-12 years of that making $28/hr.

One of my neighbor's sons is a master carpenter. He says makes about $150k per year here. That tracks what I found online. The COL is definitely much higher here, but almost 3x the wages seems like a lot.

[jacob]

@Slevin - Union vs nonunion accounts for some of the difference (~50%), but more importantly, the particular specialization matters a lot. Remodeling and trimwork pays rather more than framing or millwork for example. The numbers I listed were the median nonunion numbers. Union work tends to be better in effectively all dimensions except it typically has a waiting list to get in. Funny story: My cousin used to be a tool and die maker and the millworkers studied at the same school. Their nickname was "fingerless"

[thef0x]

@Jean, no ill feelings intended, just a personal preference I suppose. For me, there's something to be said about life experience, specifically aging, that is important to experience together. Insert the argument "it's how you've lived your years not the years you've lived" here. I get it -- but I do think literal years on the planet carries some meaning.

If you balk at the idea of 70 year old's dating 20 year old's, then to some degree, you understand my point. I guess if you don't think there's anything particularly off-putting about that kind of relationship, any appeal I'll make here won't be meaningful. But if there is a limit in your mind, then I suppose I'm just suggesting a tighter band of age that aligns with one's desires.

As I stated earlier, I do think life projects have limited timelines. Having children at 70 is, in my mind, arguably immoral, for example. Playing sports is another obvious example; certainly our physical biology limits our capacities based on our age.

Fortunately in the western world, you're free to do as you please in this regard, so have at! But I know I would not be satisfied in a relationship with someone with 20 years less life experience than myself. Having some fun, if you will, sure, but a deep connection.. I'd say the odds are not stacked in my favor there on both sides of the equation --> a 20s something tends to not look for a 40s something as well and similar to me, if they did, I'd be a bit concerned about what that says about them.

All personal preference here. Appreciate the opportunity to chew on my intuitions

[7Wannabe5]

If you balk at the idea of 70 year old's dating 20 year old's

Well, since I very briefly "dated" a man in his 20s when I was in my 50s, I would offer up the list of "pros" compiled by my fellow eNTP Benjamin Franklin:

In all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:

1. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor’d with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.

2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc’d may be attended with much Inconvenience.

4. Because thro’ more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin’d to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.

7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.

8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!”

Actually, although/because our shared temperamental disposition inclines my reasoning in the realm of relationships to be somewhat akin to Ben's, I would suggest that all other things being equal (as is seldom the case in reality), and given the 21st century cultural freedom to engage in solo polyamorous practice, acquiring one peer partner, one older partner, and one younger partner might be optimal. The downside of limiting your intimate relationships to only age peers is that you might find yourselves to some extent "locked in the 1980s together." IOW, the fact that a peer relationship is the sort of relationship in which you are likely to feel most comfortable may also speak to the challenges it allows you to avoid or the perspective to which you have limited yourself.

Similarly, there is also no reason why one couldn't enact a mix of lifestyle narratives conventionally assigned to a given decade of one's life in any or every decade of one's life. IOW, lifestyle design can be approached through an iterative/agile methodology as readily as a more structural/waterfall methodology. The way to "retire as quickly as possible" can be imagined as similar to a first iteration towards "minimum viable product" and it's also the case that climbing Maslow's Hierarchy towards "self-actualization" and beyond can (and often is) be achieved within the cycle of single day.

It is true that one's vigor decreases with age, but experience informs us that it would likely be best to knock boots with younger "buddy" or new-tech-oriented grad school assignment in the morning after second cup of coffee, enjoy an early dinner in the afternoon lull with an older lover or classic work of literature, and then hang-out "back home" in the evening with your peer partner or a bingeable bit of media. Mastering the "art of the nap" may allow for some further flexibility, but it has been my experience that any attempt to "keep up" with a lover or a task more than 15 years your junior after 11 pm in the evening will exhaust you to the extent that you will likely appear/feel like a crypt-dweller much of the following day.

[Jin+Guice]

As has been hinted at by other's you are already retired, you just haven't realized it yet.

As other's have also said, learning a job that takes some specialization/ skill is preferable to one that doesn't.
The most important financial aspect is keeping expenses very low.
The second most important financial aspect is having a high savings rate (unless you are doing something truly out there, i.e. Mark Boyle/ Robin Greenfield).

More important than financial stuff or jobs are staying healthy (this is the most important thing) and learning the basic life skills not taught in school (home ec, emotional skills, social skills, learning how to learn, appreciation of aesthetics, learning how to self-reflect).

Congrats on finding ERE so young. Enjoy your freedom and think about what you might want to do with it.

[jayritchie]

I'd like to go and sit in the park to read books. I have a lot of books taking up cyberspace. Haha. Also, I'd want to learn a martial art, Financial independence where I wouldn't have to worry about getting fired, layoff-ed, performance reviews, office politics. I'd want to learn how to make tables and other things.

There seem to be some interesting things to pick up on here. How often do you go to a park to read books? For how many hours a day do you read at present when you have free time? I think there is a difference between the person who enjoys reading for one hour a day to the person who loves reading for 6 plus hours a day over extended periods.

[Revan]

There seem to be some interesting things to pick up on here. How often do you go to a park to read books? For how many hours a day do you read at present when you have free time? I think there is a difference between the person who enjoys reading for one hour a day to the person who loves reading for 6 plus hours a day over extended periods.

I'd say I read a book for about an hour a day during the school days and 3-4 hours on the weekends. I usually read at home instead of the park. Yeah, I got to start reading more and go to the park.

[jayritchie]

I'd say I read a book for about an hour a day during the school days and 3-4 hours on the weekends. I usually read at home instead of the park. Yeah, I got to start reading more and go to the park.

Cool - that's a significant amount of time. As a thought from a non American, is there a good reason to go to university as soon as you can? Any reason not to take a year or two out first?

There may be very good reasons. One would be that you receive an offer from a big name in-state school and might not receive the equivalent offer in the future. I'd be very nervous about turning down a place at UCB or U Mich without some very serious consideration.

With a year or two out you can work for a while and save money then travel somewhere which gives you a chance to read a lot. 6 months in India and Nepal? Walk one of the long trails in the US? The benefit of learning a lot when young is you have a lifetime to benefit from the knowledge.

[Revan]

As a thought from a non American, is there a good reason to go to university as soon as you can? Any reason not to take a year or two out first?

I'd say that main reason to go right away is to get it over with. Plus the longer I wait the less support system I have from family. I have friends that have taken a gap year but then followed it with a gap life. They planned on going to college but problems arrived along the away. Murphy's law, you know? Traveling the world and seeing new places does sound nice though.

[lillo9546]

I'll emphasize what Lemur mentioned--whatever you do, you need to pick something that suits you. I started out studying Chemical Engineering because I liked chemistry in high school, it paid well, and I didn't have any better ideas. I ended up not making it through the program. After the fact, I found that career on a list of worst careers for my personality type. Maybe look at a similar list/take a career test before committing to something. There are other threads about picking a career that I'm too tired to search up for you. The general advice around here seems to be practical--pick something that pays and you are good at. Since this is ERE, Home Economics should be your unofficial minor--controlling expenses ends up being at least as important as how much you make.

A friend of mine in his 30s started personal training, rented a private box, and began training people. He earns a net income of $100,000 per year. No one would have predicted that. However, at this rate, he could easily retire in less than 10 years and use the SWR to cover his COL while continuing to train, perhaps with a limited schedule.

How does that sound to you?
He knows he will do it for a good part of his life, at least for another 30 years, and then, who knows, maybe he will train the people who grew up with him, specializing in training for the elderly.

This job satisfies his lifestyle, providing a great income, doing what he really enjoys, and something that makes others happy. It seems like an ikigai.

[Revan]

It looks good on paper. Just like incomes in Albania are not the same as incomes in Switzerland, incomes in the US vary depending on where you live. A carpenter apprentice in Illinois (a middle ranked/average state in the US by almost every conceivable measure) makes about $18/hr. After four years one becomes a journeyman who can do independent work. They make about $23/hr. If you keep at it, you become a master carpenter after 10-12 years of that making $28/hr. Compare to the median US salary per person of $38,000/year. In short, you'll be right in the middle of the middle class in terms of incomes very quickly without any student debt.

If invested wisely instead of wasted on a brand new truck and other shenanigans, this is definitely enough to hit ERE within 5 years since it pays more than what a typical physicist at a similar experience level makes at a typical university.

This career would further put you in the "working man" quadrant in the ERE book which leaves the option to semi-retire picking only the kind of jobs you want, work seasonally, and be very geographically flexible. (Indeed, it might require you to be so, so this can be considered a feature or a bug depending on desires). When I lived in an RV a lot of my neighbors were carpenters, electricians, plumbers, ... pulling a 5th wheel behind their working truck from job to job. One of the more permanent residents split his year behind hunting and fishing in California and working for a few months in the oilfields of Alaska to pay for the rest of the year.

Has anyone on this forum gone through with this? Starting right after HS and implementing ERE?

I'm trying to find journals to see if its actually possible beyond paper. Most of them already have a job/degree or are theorizing that the trades could be done. But I haven't seen anyone actually implement it. If there is someone on this forum that has completed this, can you point me to their journal?

Best Trades for ERE:
viewtopic.php?t=10399
Getting into the trades?:
viewtopic.php?t=5388

[AxelHeyst]

I'm not aware of any journals where someone's hit ERE right out of HS, avoided university, and beelined towards FIRE (which is what I think you meant?). Not that many people find ERE that early! I only know off-hand of one other forumite who joined around the end of HS (RoamingFrancis), and he's on a pretty alternative path so not totally relevant to your question.

The closest I'm aware of are people who found ERE in university and then either graduate (or not) and beeline towards ERE/FIRE generating income without much relevance to whatever their degree was. @ether (FIREd off of flipping apts if I recall correctly) and @theanimal (ran off to the tundra of Alaska to become an arctic badass) come to mind.

Blaze the trail! Be the first! All the glory goes to the first ascenders.

[Western Red Cedar]

@Revan - The one journal that comes to mind is Cam's. They found ERE relatively early and had some headway with an electrician and welding apprenticeship, but ultimately moved in another direction. Someone else already commented in your journal who took a sales route shortly after high schooled, dramatically increased their income, and hit FI relatively quickly. You might think about visiting that journal.

In addition to the fact that not many people find ERE early, keep in mind that the FI forums, and this one in particular, attracts nerds who like spreadsheets, ecology, and philosophy. The type of people and professions who are already sitting at a keyboards for much of the day. I have at least a half dozen close friends who have found a lot of financial success in the trades or starting their own businesses without college degrees, but they aren't the kind of people who hang out on internet forums, if you know what I mean.