The Brothers Karamazov

[zbigi]

There is one more interesting tidbit in Dostoyevsky's biography - while in SIberia, he converted from being progressive to basically embracing conservative "Mother Russia" view of on the state and its society and politics. He became an ardent supporter of the Tzar (as bulwark of traditionalism), and even sent him a sleazy letter full of praise and subservience. It might have stemmed from the belief that the traditional values are the only thing that could rescue the world from the horrors that the progressivism might bring (and, indeed, did bring) in the future.
A corollary of that was subscribing to the uber-chauvinist vision of Russia as a natural leader of all Slavic nations ("panslavism"). (*) This brought about his hatred of the Poles (notable in most of his works), as Russia's greatest contenters and biggest spoilsports when it comes to panslavism. Also, there might have been some self-hatred involved, with his family having strong Polish origins.

As for whether he was a true believer or rather tried to convince himself that it would be good and wise to be a believer, I always got the impression that it was the latter.

(*) Interestingly, this seems to be an undivisible combination, as far as great Russian conservative writers go. For example, Solzenicyn basically turned to Putinism in his late years, while Brodsky claimed that "Ukraine is Russia".

[chenda]

For example, Solzenicyn basically turned to Putinism in his late years, while Brodsky claimed that "Ukraine is Russia".

Solzenicyn it seems had a long standing fascist streak. Apparently his main criticism of Hitler was his failure to 'liberate' the Soviet Union from communism.

[candide]

You’ll have to forgive me, but I was joking when I wrote that. I joke a lot. So much so that Dear Husband Suomalainen has suggested I try stand up comedy. And your comment kind of proves a point: merely reading a book isn’t impressive and doesn’t make you smart.

I still don't understand the joke. So I also don't understand how my comment proves a point.

But to be clear, I wasn't being sarcastic; I am impressed when people put in the time to read a large book, as it is becoming rarer and rarer in our culture. And I think you have shown intelligence in this conversation. If I am going to accept a pluralistic world, then there are things that smart, reasonable people are going to see differently than me.

I think the stakes to this conversation are very, very low. But if it doesn't feel that way, I would blame the conditioning of online culture wars. I am reminded of a part I wrote for a piece a few years ago exploring " why so many assume by default that when someone mentions anything they are therefore a fanatic of that thing." And I had this one:

Fanatical endorsement is a mode of American salesmanship.

This mode is clearly related to all those smiling faces and the often pointed-out (near?) orgasm in advertisements for every product. You can't just like wine, you are now a wine freak. Everything is "the best." And there are existential stakes to this "bestness" . . . every time. That these people are lying con artists doesn't stop their effectiveness, particularly in the aggregate -- meaning, they need to get as many people doing it as possible. Why can't you just be more confident? After all, it's very important to learn how to sale yourself. And any small scrap of something you consume is now a part of you . . . ergo sale that with complete confidence. QED.

So... I thought the book was good, and if you don't, it's fine. But I am answering the question "what I see in it," not "why this is the greatest book any human being could ever experience." And I would have anyone who assumed that was the template, examine where that would come from.

You'd hope that a young person asking for book recommendations would have a few hundred more books in their future. It seems like you'd admit Dostoevsky has some books that would be worthy of making such a cut. You may be right to recommend those other books over Brothers K, but again, I must emphasize how low the stakes are here.

[Biscuits and Gravy]

I think you have shown intelligence in this conversation.

It’s because I used the word ‘penumbra,’ right?

I think the stakes to this conversation are very, very low. But if it doesn't feel that way, I would blame the conditioning of online culture wars.

Maybe I’m just not engaging well in this discussion? I appreciate you starting the thread and it has been interesting to read everyone’s experience of Dostoevsky and his novels. This is stuff I never get to talk about IRL! So maybe that’s why it comes across as me thinking it’s high stakes? (I know it’s not.) As far as online culture wars, I am very unfamiliar. My internet history is Reuters, the Houston Chronicle, and ERE, so I’m not very savvy when it comes to Internet drama or trends.

Anyway, I’ll just chill out and hopefully some other people will post their impression of the book.

[chenda]

It’s because I used the word ‘penumbra,’ right?

I had to Google it as I confused it with perineum. Which in some ways has a similar meaning.

[7Wannabe5]

I did read "BK" when I was 22. It was during my first brief period of self-funded "temporary retirement." I had plenty of free time and it was winter in Michigan, so reading Russian literature seemed appropriate. I found it somewhat interesting, but I didn't love it. In the somewhat contemporaneous realm, "Anna Karenina" would be the one great novel to read, Chekhov would be the finest writer, and Gorky's works are more deeply "humanist." IMHO

[zbigi]

I've also read BK when I was 22 or 23 (in the evenings after a demaning job, days of such energy are pretty much long gone...), and also didn't love it. I've only gotten to Anna Karenina in my thirties, and didn't finish it - made it 70% through and decided "it's probably more of the same till the end", and put it down. I would have probably loved it in my twenties. Unfortunately, with age it's harder to become impressed.

[Western Red Cedar]

The only Dostoyevski I read was Crime and Punishment - right before I started university after moving to a new city at 18. I remember being both engaged with the characters and the novel, but feeling like it was a slog. It kind of put me off Russian literature, though I enjoyed Fathers and Sons later that year. I read Kropotkin's memoirs of a revolutionist at 22 and loved it. I also went through the typical early 20's, Ayn Rand phase as well; though I don't know if she'd necessarily fit into the canon of Russian authors.

My dad and BIL like to nerd out on Russian literature discussions on occasion, with a particular love for Solzhenitsyn. Ironically, Dostoyevski kept me away, even though I know I should probably read more.

[Hristo Botev]

I entirely agree. To remind people, this discussion stemmed from a 22 year old American’s request in his journal for reading recommendations. Brothers was recommended. Forumites can imagine what an average American’s knowledge of the 19th century and specifically 19th century Russia is. Layer on top of that the intimacy with the Bible that reading Dostoevsky requires. So when a kid says, hey, what’s a great book I should read? I just don’t think Brothers should be the go to. It’s Russian pearls before American swine.

For the record, my recommendation to that 22 year old (viewtopic.php?p=293580#p293580) was to start with Homer and then move on from there through the Great Books in rough chronological order. BK was something I said that I personally liked to re-read every few years.

I didn't know much about ancient Troy the first time I picked up the Iliad, but it turns out knowledge of ancient Troy or even of Hellenistic culture generally isn't required; it helps, for sure, but I don't think it is required.

I think that is kind of the point--the universality of the shared human experience over time: that we can see so much that is relatable and familiar in a story written about a prehistoric people that may not have existed, about a prehistoric war/battle that may not have happened, written down by a poet (or poets?) that might not have existed after centuries of that story being relayed and improved upon orally. If that is the case with the Iliad, then I certainly don't think any special knowledge of the 19th century and/or Russian culture and history is required to appreciate and benefit from a reading of BK.

And each time I go back to the Iliad, having since read Plato (who repeatedly quotes and pulls storylines from Homer), and having since read some of the Greek plays (many of which tell stories of the same gods who are characters in the Iliad), the story opens up more and more.

This is the same for me with BK, and it's why I love to return to the BK. In my mind it's a great progress report as to how well read (or not) I am. There are so many Biblical and historical and philosophical and theological and psychological references in BK that were completely lost on me the first time I read the book. When I returned to the book a year or so later, having made my way through some of the Great Books, the book opened up to me a lot more. And the third time, even more. And no doubt that will continue as I continue to make "heavy reading" a priority. I certainly do not think that intimacy with the Bible is required to read BK, though such intimacy does of course open the book up a lot more.

If you view the Great Books as being "The Great Conversation," written down over the centuries by the smartest thinkers of their time, BK certainly has to be considered part of that conversation.

He once met Hristo Botev. Not our one though.

So, what are you saying, you don't think this is what I look like IRL?

[chenda]

So, what are you saying, you don't think this is what I look like IRL?

Oh I think there's some remarkable similarities

All this talk of Russian literature has inspired me to read Turgenev's Home of the Gentry, which for some reason I have a copy of. According to the blurb it is 'about the homecoming of the Russian gentry who have flirted with western ideas and found only failure and disillusion, and return to plough the land in hopes of a distant harvest'. I'll review in due course...

[7Wannabe5]

If I had to pick one novel to recommend to a 22 year old American, it would be (and has been),"The Adventures of Augie March", by Saul Bellow. There is no shortage of recommended novels written from the perspective of the "anguished young man", so a novel that starts with the following paragraph is a notable alternative:

I am an American, Chicago born—Chicago, that somber city—and go at things as I have taught myself, freestyle, and will make the record in my own way: first to knock, first admitted; sometimes an innocent knock, sometimes a not so innocent. But a man’s character is his fate, says Heraclitus, and in the end there isn’t any way to disguise the nature of the knocks by acoustical work on the door or gloving the knuckles.

[Hristo Botev]

If I had to pick one novel to recommend to a 22 year old American, it would be (and has been),"The Adventures of Augie March", by Saul Bellow. There is no shortage of recommended novels written from the perspective of the "anguished young man", so a novel that starts with the following paragraph is a notable alternative:

Well, if we are talking about whoppers of an opening paragraph, can we really even attempt to top the opening line of The Iliad about the OG when it comes to "anguished young man" (i.e., Achilles)? (from Fagle's translation)

"Rage—Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters’ souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
as the will of Zeus was accomplished."

[chenda]

'Twas a dark and stormy night...

[candide]

Ah, we're dong cool openings to books?

O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!
Then should the warlike Harry, like himself,
Assume the port of Mars; and at his heels,
Leash'd in like hounds, should famine, sword and fire
Crouch for employment. But pardon, and gentles all,
The flat unraised spirits that have dared
On this unworthy scaffold to bring forth
So great an object: can this cockpit hold
The vasty fields of France? or may we cram
Within this wooden O the very casques
That did affright the air at Agincourt?

Henry V. Billy Shakspere

For the record, my recommendation to that 22 year old (viewtopic.php?p=293580#p293580) was to start with Homer and then move on from there through the Great Books in rough chronological order. BK was something I said that I personally liked to re-read every few years.

I didn't know much about ancient Troy the first time I picked up the Iliad, but it turns out knowledge of ancient Troy or even of Hellenistic culture generally isn't required; it helps, for sure, but I don't think it is required.

I think that is kind of the point--the universality of the shared human experience over time: that we can see so much that is relatable and familiar ...

It takes a certain type of mental bent to see the familiar in these old texts. I believe it can be an acquired taste, and back when the tide was on our side in respectable circles it seemed that more people did acquire the taste... But I can't help seeing the possibility that people used to either fake it, or were a silent majority of people who thought the emperor had no clothes. Well, they are silent no more.

To be honest, I take no pride in all of my heavy reading I have done in my life, because I don't feel I'm allowed to -- in spite of living in a university town, and having my former social circle be teachers, and a plurality with English degrees.

Instead, I look back on it as an itch I scratched... Before making the recommendation for history or the classics, I would first see if someone has that itch. And many intelligent, diligent, successful people just do not. (So it is always a joy to meet someone who does -- I appreciate that any of you... us... still exist).

But it's not just the deep empathy that allows certain sensitive souls can see the familiar in these texts, it also the fact that what is different can be an invitation to learn. And it a very interesting learning, it that you first have an opportunity to make inferences that you can then latch on to as you explore a more systematic history.

... Leading me to a recommendation for a course of humanistic studies, for those who can't imagine NOT doing such a thing. Read a few works of literature from a period, and then follow that up with Will Durant's lovely histories.

That is quite a bit of reading, I understand (a few million words to get up to the birth of modernity). And I cannot promise any who would do it either income or respect from any person they meet in real life for doing so.

If I had to pick one novel to recommend to a 22 year old American, it would be (and has been),"The Adventures of Augie March", by Saul Bellow.

Too bad not a public domain one, or I'd suggest a book club on it.

[7Wannabe5]

Too bad not a public domain one, or I'd suggest a book club on it.

I wouldn't recommend it as a forum book club pick. The reasons I would recommend it to a 22 year old American would be that is often found on short list for The Great American Novel, and I found it so affirmative in philosophy when I read it while pregnant at age 25, I was planning to name my second son (who turned out to be a daughter due to misleading ultrasound) Augie after the protagonist.

The public domain book I would recommend for forum book club discussion would be "Howard's End." Mostly because I think it offers an earliest example of the Spiral Dynamics and similar models we often discuss.

[candide]

The public domain book I would recommend for forum book club discussion would be "Howard's End." Mostly because I think it offers an earliest example of the Spiral Dynamics and similar models we often discuss.

That could be interesting. Are you willing to teach spiral dynamics through the book? Maybe do a write up of the spiral dynamics in play after each checkpoint? With, perhaps a checkpoint at every 60 pages?

[7Wannabe5]

@candide:

That might be a stretch because as an "earliest" example, it is still most clearly seen through lens of class structure in England around the turn of 19th/20th century. IOW, some previous knowledge of Spiral Dynamics would likely be needed to see the hinting towards this model with the novel. However, I actually just reserved a copy of "On Beauty", by Zadie Smith (already found on best books of 21st century lists) which is meant to be a 21st century adaptation/response to "Howard's End", in which this theme may (or may not) be made more accessible or further developed for post-post-modern audience. Dunno.

OTOH, the late 19th/early 20th century might be sort of a unique juncture for considering a model such as Spiral Dynamics, because more of the levels of the model would still be significantly in play prior to the globalizing effect of WW1 and 2. OTOH, casting some of the characters in "Howard's End" as post-modern would mean equating post-modern more with "progressive towards artsy/intellectual/Bohemian" and claiming Level Yellow post-post-modern for just one of the characters would require equating the meta-modern mostly with "towards higher perspective which allows for tolerance of intolerance and appreciation of values which one does not value most highly oneself." IOW, one would have to accept the premise that in the most affluent, urban, and educated portion of the population in the most industrial advanced nation in the world of the time, flickerings of the meta-modern perspective were already in existence, even as much of the world's population still inhabited Traditional/Warrior/Magical or Survival Paradigm. Whereas, these-a-days if I suggest that many of my students in gangland environment junior high operate within the Warrior paradigm or perspective, the rubber meets the road fact that we all own cell phones, occasionally drive-thru Starbucks, or find ourselves in adjacent beds in Covid-crowded emergency room tends towards disproving any simultaneous conjunction of levels. IOW, just like climate change will have the tendency to make every exit off of I75 feel more like you woke up to pee on a muggy day in Georgia by the turn of the next century, the last 150 years of history have mostly served to make us all more uniformly Modern in our functioning.

[candide]

So are you still suggesting the book as a forum book club? If so, is it for other additional reasons?

[7Wannabe5]

Well, one of the early reviewers of "Howard's End" described it as a novel with a "feminine" energy, so I may also be recommending it as counterpoint to the more towards masculine energy of this forum. So, although "Howard's End" is a much easier read than BK, it may be even more unliked than BK by the median member of this forum. Therefore, if I were to instead choose a public domain work I believe would be "liked" by many/most members of this forum, I would suggest "The Last of the Mohicans" by James Fenimore Cooper or "The Virginian" by Owen Wister. These are two great novels which I believe would be liked by both those who went through an Ayn Rand phase and those who went through a Laura Ingalls Wilder phase, so would envelope at least a strong minority of the forum.

[candide]

Well, we can let it hang there and see if anyone else bites, but for my part Howard's End seems more interesting than the two proto-Westerns.

I'll read to be part of a group, if a group forms, though.