Commune/Intentional Community
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
MMM is essentially an extremely thrifty suburbanite, as are his adherents. Nothing wrong with that. I've benefited from reading him, as that is essentially the extent of my ERE. But I honestly don't see any organization he tries to create as anything more than a glorified bicycle club.
What JLF has created I could see as being more binding as it centers around both a highly contemplative and instructional book. Books are essential to organizing such entities (It is not a coincidence that Judaism/Christianity/Judaism are called the religions of the books). Anyone who says they don't like writing down what they believe in because it is dogmatic hasn't negated the fact that somewhere there is a dogma to their thinking and time will disclose what that dogma actually is. Based on the diversity of this board, I still see it as challenging. I mean, what you do, ask for loyalty oaths? For instance, if I slip out at night, and come back to the village and despite my very best efforts not to, start ripping farts that some highly sensitive olfactory motherfucker identifies as Big Mac induced, do I have to worry about everyone going Nathaniel Hawthorne on me?
What JLF has created I could see as being more binding as it centers around both a highly contemplative and instructional book. Books are essential to organizing such entities (It is not a coincidence that Judaism/Christianity/Judaism are called the religions of the books). Anyone who says they don't like writing down what they believe in because it is dogmatic hasn't negated the fact that somewhere there is a dogma to their thinking and time will disclose what that dogma actually is. Based on the diversity of this board, I still see it as challenging. I mean, what you do, ask for loyalty oaths? For instance, if I slip out at night, and come back to the village and despite my very best efforts not to, start ripping farts that some highly sensitive olfactory motherfucker identifies as Big Mac induced, do I have to worry about everyone going Nathaniel Hawthorne on me?
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
An interesting story on an intentional community that failed before launch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/real ... osure.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/real ... osure.html
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
I just watched this documentary and it was absolutely mind blowing. Sexual abuse, militia building, assassination attempts, mass druggings, biological warfare, rounding up the homeless...they did it all.Jason wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:22 amOr as just documented, these people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Wild_Country
I had a lot of sympathy with the locals and authorities, though I kinda also had a grudging admiration for the Rajneeshees too. They built a whole city from scratch in a few years with every amenity, albeit a short lived one.
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
Vitalik Buterin, the creator of Ethereum, wrote an article about his rcent experience creating a "pop up mini city" in Montenegro.
He brought 200 people together for 2 months to collaborate and work on projects. He considers it an overall success.
Wins, according to him:
- people almost universally reported having a good time
- they quickly developed some interesting tech that would have taken much longer to develop had people not been co-located
- people came from all around the world
Areas for improvement:
- no one used the blockchain to organize anything
- no one used crypto for payments
- there were very few families with kids. Most people who came were already digital nomads
He brought 200 people together for 2 months to collaborate and work on projects. He considers it an overall success.
Wins, according to him:
- people almost universally reported having a good time
- they quickly developed some interesting tech that would have taken much longer to develop had people not been co-located
- people came from all around the world
Areas for improvement:
- no one used the blockchain to organize anything
- no one used crypto for payments
- there were very few families with kids. Most people who came were already digital nomads
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16326
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
This has also been the experience of every ERE meetup since 2010 or whenever the first one was. Of course there may be some selection-bias involved, but I've never had anyone tell me they had a bad or boring experience meeting other EREmites.
However, I much more interested in this aspect of connecting and getting together. Don't get me wrong. Having a good time is nice, but it all seems so ... recreational. This is a useful distinction to make in order to Create anything bigger than the personal experience of those involved. This is the difference between ERE2 and "a bunch of ERE1s having a BBQ party".
This shows that it's something enough people want in their life to pay that price of entry.
This is kinda ideological. It either shows that participants are "more talk, than walk" or that "the dream is not practically viable". I suppose this is like complaining that no lentils were served at the ERE meetup or that people paid for a plane ticket rather than hitchhike across 10 states to get there.
This is an interesting observation. It's either Zuckerberg's observation that people are most "productive/creative/capable of initiative" before they get bogged down by other concerns ... or that living in a given place for a given time is already part of the playbook for digital nomads. (This is almost two sides of the same coin but not quite.)
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
I recently saw a post on the permies forum about an off-grid intentional community. I contacted them and got this information:
Short description of our project:
This is a land cooperative, very similar to housing co-ops in New York City. 75% of apartment owners in NYC own their apartments through housing co-ops. They buy a share in the co-op and the apartment comes with. When they want to move, they sell their share. We're doing the exact same thing, but with land. Members of the co-op are joint-owners of the entire 1,298 acres. The nice thing about our co-op is that our focus is on saving our shareholders money, rather than on maximizing profits like traditional land developers do.
Membership in the Arizona OSR Land Co-op currently costs $25k, with that you get:
- Pick of a two-acre lot for your exclusive use (first-come, first-served),
- A cooperative's equivalent of a title to 2 acres at the Coslor Cove farm-steading village
(it's called a proprietary occupancy agreement).
- Access to the co-op's tool and equipment rentals (so you don't have to buy tools you'll rarely use. Rental fees go towards maintenance.),
- Use of a "casita" (tiny home) on the property while you build, if needed (and if available),
Rental fees go towards maintenance and cleaning, and rental rates are reduced for members.
- Use of the co-op greenhouse for one season while you’re building your greenhouse,
- Co-ownership of all 1,298 acres, Voting rights are extended once your homestead is finished (don't want you to get distracted from building out your homestead).
- Ability to sell your surplus produce through our co-op store,
- Opportunity to join in on agricultural projects being done on the co-op's surplus land.
- Group purchases of products and services needed to build your garden-farm.
- Access to the co-op's "courtesy wells" so you can get water until you have your own well dug.
- Eventually, you get what no other community can offer! 199 neighbors who are producing all their own food, water and power and cooperating together for their mutual benefit.
Obligations
As a member, you agree to build out, within 3 years:
- A passive solar home (with at least 40R in the walls and 80R in the ceilings),
- A greenhouse (at least 600 square feet, 1,200 is recommended),
- A well (most in the area are going down around 450 feet),
- A county-approved sanitation system, and
- A barn or shop for your animals and/or tools and equipment.
- A solar power system to run everything.
Based on our experience with our first off-grid community, we figure you’ll need at least $235k in resources to build out a minimal off-grid homestead (and that’s if you’re OK with a 600-800 square foot home).
Long description:
Watch OSR's 53-minute backstory video here: https://www.Riverbed-Ranch.com/videos
(If clicking these links doesn't work, try copying & pasting them into your browser's address bar)
If you have further interest:
After watching the intro video linked to above, feel free to join us for:
- Wednesday Night live Q&A - where you can not only get your questions answered, but can hear what others are curious about. You can register and access the call using this link: (link removed by sky)
- Saturday tours: https://www.eventbrite.com/o/riverbed-ranch-27972265747
Short description of our project:
This is a land cooperative, very similar to housing co-ops in New York City. 75% of apartment owners in NYC own their apartments through housing co-ops. They buy a share in the co-op and the apartment comes with. When they want to move, they sell their share. We're doing the exact same thing, but with land. Members of the co-op are joint-owners of the entire 1,298 acres. The nice thing about our co-op is that our focus is on saving our shareholders money, rather than on maximizing profits like traditional land developers do.
Membership in the Arizona OSR Land Co-op currently costs $25k, with that you get:
- Pick of a two-acre lot for your exclusive use (first-come, first-served),
- A cooperative's equivalent of a title to 2 acres at the Coslor Cove farm-steading village
(it's called a proprietary occupancy agreement).
- Access to the co-op's tool and equipment rentals (so you don't have to buy tools you'll rarely use. Rental fees go towards maintenance.),
- Use of a "casita" (tiny home) on the property while you build, if needed (and if available),
Rental fees go towards maintenance and cleaning, and rental rates are reduced for members.
- Use of the co-op greenhouse for one season while you’re building your greenhouse,
- Co-ownership of all 1,298 acres, Voting rights are extended once your homestead is finished (don't want you to get distracted from building out your homestead).
- Ability to sell your surplus produce through our co-op store,
- Opportunity to join in on agricultural projects being done on the co-op's surplus land.
- Group purchases of products and services needed to build your garden-farm.
- Access to the co-op's "courtesy wells" so you can get water until you have your own well dug.
- Eventually, you get what no other community can offer! 199 neighbors who are producing all their own food, water and power and cooperating together for their mutual benefit.
Obligations
As a member, you agree to build out, within 3 years:
- A passive solar home (with at least 40R in the walls and 80R in the ceilings),
- A greenhouse (at least 600 square feet, 1,200 is recommended),
- A well (most in the area are going down around 450 feet),
- A county-approved sanitation system, and
- A barn or shop for your animals and/or tools and equipment.
- A solar power system to run everything.
Based on our experience with our first off-grid community, we figure you’ll need at least $235k in resources to build out a minimal off-grid homestead (and that’s if you’re OK with a 600-800 square foot home).
Long description:
Watch OSR's 53-minute backstory video here: https://www.Riverbed-Ranch.com/videos
(If clicking these links doesn't work, try copying & pasting them into your browser's address bar)
If you have further interest:
After watching the intro video linked to above, feel free to join us for:
- Wednesday Night live Q&A - where you can not only get your questions answered, but can hear what others are curious about. You can register and access the call using this link: (link removed by sky)
- Saturday tours: https://www.eventbrite.com/o/riverbed-ranch-27972265747
-
- Posts: 1355
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
@Sky - that is a really interesting model. I'd personally have some concerns about water and would ask about consultations with a hydrogeologist and attorney to understand the potential limits on physical and legal availability of water. Western water law is pretty quirky, and having water rights doesn't mean they are guaranteed if there is a senior water right holder impacted during a drought. The video on the Utah community talked quite a bit about water, but 200 wells pumping 5000+ gallons per day for active agriculture adds up quickly.
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
Similar to what @sky posted above.. we were recently in Rimini, Italy. The campsites there are extremely expensive during the high season but raw land values, even beachfront property, is inexpensive. Groups of "camper collectives" got together, bought pieces of beachfront property, built what appeared to be the minimum necessary infrastructure to become "campgrounds", and thus avoid the high prices. We were there very late in the season and there were a few dozen campers remaining in each of these collectives.
Whenever I hear people talking about an ERE commune, this is how I imagine it happening.
Whenever I hear people talking about an ERE commune, this is how I imagine it happening.
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
I would like to live on a homestead with a passive solar house, greenhouse and barn. I am having some difficulty in identifying value added by living in an intentional community versus a privately owned parcel of land.
Intentional Community Benefits:
Sharing of equipment, group buys, help in distress, bartering, tax advantages, social opportunities. Initial buy in cost is low.
Are there other benefits that I am missing?
I am not interested in joining an intentional community at this time, I am just interested in them as a community building experiment.
Intentional Community Benefits:
Sharing of equipment, group buys, help in distress, bartering, tax advantages, social opportunities. Initial buy in cost is low.
Are there other benefits that I am missing?
I am not interested in joining an intentional community at this time, I am just interested in them as a community building experiment.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16326
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
The greatest strengths are typically also the greatest weaknesses. I see similar arrangements going up in the doomersphere and I'm personally biased towards agency, so caveat emptor on my opinions: There are many who are attracted to these communities because they recently learned that the world as they know it is ending while panicking a bit about not having any useful skills. So why not help each other? This begets the second problem in that while a $235k buy-in may be low to these ready-to-retire white collar workers as long as they cash out their 401k (yes, people do that), it is very high for the young ones with the skills and energy to actually plow the fields. Ideologically, "coming together as a community" is treated as a kind of magic that makes everybody wiser ... but OTOH, you can't put a number of people together in a room and get anything better from the group than you could from the best in the group. The sum of general incompetence still equals incompetence. Incompetence doesn't synergize. Therein lies the problem as far as I see it.
Or in simpler terms: 235k buy-in is the wrong kind of moat.
The "ERE RV Park" used to be a project. Someone would buy an RV park and people would bring their tiny houses and live there and we'd have workshops, etc. The problem was ... someone had to front half a million (probably more today) to start it.Ego wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:38 pmSimilar to what @sky posted above.. we were recently in Rimini, Italy. The campsites there are extremely expensive during the high season but raw land values, even beachfront property, is inexpensive. Groups of "camper collectives" got together, bought pieces of beachfront property, built what appeared to be the minimum necessary infrastructure to become "campgrounds", and thus avoid the high prices. We were there very late in the season and there were a few dozen campers remaining in each of these collectives.
Whenever I hear people talking about an ERE commune, this is how I imagine it happening.
However, rethinking this ... as part of ERE Midwestfest2024, lets descend on a campground and do the same for two months. We may not be able to individually stay for longer than 2 weeks at a time (campground rule), but that does not mean that the "system" can not be in place for (much) longer than that with people coming and going ... and maybe coming back later, perhaps on the return trip. Indeed, some existing campgrounds allow for seasonal passes. Such a fest could last for a season with a core group staying for the duration while others drop in. This could be a thing insofar people made the habit of making an annual pilgrimage to the same (few) place(s).
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
@sky
Watched the promotional video. Man, I don't know, the whole project seems a bit naive. Especially the water issues.
I think your greatest challenge is going to find a community that fits your ideal sense of living. I don't know that it exists unless you create it yourself. I can easily poke holes in any intentional community, whether it is Amish, hippies, permies, ERE people, religious cults, what have you. The original founders may be wonderful, but they will eventually leave either through death or internal conflicts. And then what? We have many examples to examine when shit goes sideways. People are people.
Have you looked into communities that are experiencing progressive, artsy changes such as Asheville, NC? These types of towns draw in a lot of interesting people that counterbalance the existing population. It makes for a dynamic community that retains a lot of its original values but also welcomes new ideas and beautification.
Watched the promotional video. Man, I don't know, the whole project seems a bit naive. Especially the water issues.
I think your greatest challenge is going to find a community that fits your ideal sense of living. I don't know that it exists unless you create it yourself. I can easily poke holes in any intentional community, whether it is Amish, hippies, permies, ERE people, religious cults, what have you. The original founders may be wonderful, but they will eventually leave either through death or internal conflicts. And then what? We have many examples to examine when shit goes sideways. People are people.
Have you looked into communities that are experiencing progressive, artsy changes such as Asheville, NC? These types of towns draw in a lot of interesting people that counterbalance the existing population. It makes for a dynamic community that retains a lot of its original values but also welcomes new ideas and beautification.
-
- Posts: 1355
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
The thing that is most interesting, and that I think they get right with this setup, is that it is a larger community with privately owned parcels of land. That offers some level of autonomy and ownership to focus on personal projects and improvements to the land. It should significantly limit the free-rider problem. Two acres is a bit on the small side for my personal taste, but it might be fine if they are surrounded by Federal land.sky wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:43 amI would like to live on a homestead with a passive solar house, greenhouse and barn. I am having some difficulty in identifying value added by living in an intentional community versus a privately owned parcel of land.
Intentional Community Benefits:
Sharing of equipment, group buys, help in distress, bartering, tax advantages, social opportunities. Initial buy in cost is low.
Are there other benefits that I am missing?
I think social opportunities is a pretty broad category and is quite valuable. When my parents built their cabin and homestead, they benefited greatly from the experience of others who had come before them. Sometimes that was simply a conversation about certain building techniques or materials, but they also had different neighbors come over to help with things like plumbing, wiring, and a few group projects to speed things along before winter arrived.
I suspect this type of environment would be much more fulfilling for raising children, as opposed to a solo endeavor on acreage.
Also, some projects are simply easier when you have a small crew for a few hours. The Amish are a good example of this.
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
I think this is a great idea. Pretty much how my strewn across the U.S. multi-generational extended family has managed to do summer vacation together almost every year for the last 5 decades (actually more like 12 decades if prior manifestation in my father's extended family is considered!) except we always rented cottages/rooms in a series of resorts in the same lakeside locale. The only critical note I would add is that in order for this to work, somebody always has to be "Daddy" (co-ordinator and possibly financial backer), although the role can be rotated on an annual basis. One of the reasons this is necessary is that it is almost impossible to honor all preferences/schedules within a large group. So, after initial brief survey, somebody has to just announce "Okay, I reserved the big lodge cottage where we can all gather evenings for August 1-14th, hope to see most of you!"jacob wrote:However, rethinking this ... as part of ERE Midwestfest2024, lets descend on a campground and do the same for two months. We may not be able to individually stay for longer than 2 weeks at a time (campground rule), but that does not mean that the "system" can not be in place for (much) longer than that with people coming and going ... and maybe coming back later, perhaps on the return trip. Indeed, some existing campgrounds allow for seasonal passes. Such a fest could last for a season with a core group staying for the duration while others drop in. This could be a thing insofar people made the habit of making an annual pilgrimage to the same (few) place(s).
Re: Commune/Intentional Community
I read this because I might be moving into an intentional community in the next year, thought I'd add it's description to the chat..
It is not an INTJ type of community--I don't think anyone involved is likely an INTJ. The binding factor ideologically is that the group is liberals, almost alt-left, in a state and community that is predominantly conservative. It is mostly formed of various types of neurodivergents, most who are at least peripherally involved in liberal activism, conservation efforts, the local ACLU, ect.
It was founded by some of my close friends I met doing environmental activism in our state in college--The Community has lasted about ten years so far, and paid off their original land through member dues and some produce sales. They recently added 25 acres more and are working on paying it down. There are 7 completely bought in members or so, and about 15 or 20 members of lesser status (Either supporters or members of the community that are not buying in or people in the process to become full time members.) Age range is 25-75. The children raised in it have not stayed members, but younger people intermittently join.
To become a member, you first come live there for 5 days. Bought in members then vote on letting you stay a month, if you pass they vote again at 1 month and 3 months. After that point you are free to stay as long as you want unless you do something egregious that gets you voted off. After a year of living in the community, you can buy in for 1-5k, depending on the plot of land and it's location (Close to utilities, easily accessible, on a south facing slope, this costs more.) As a non member you pay 45$ a month and your share of utilities, as a member you pay 100$ a month and your share of utilities. Everyone is required to contribute 10 hours a month to developing the commune, and you can buy out half your hours in a month by contributing financially to the community. You can buy more votes by purchasing more 1/2 acre lots, with approval of existing members.
Depending on what is available when you move there, you either live in one of the established community houses with roommates, in a camper attached to the grid, or in a tent or other structure you provide. Most bought in members have built their own homes on the property.
I am mostly interested in the group for the community part. I don't have kids or intend to have kids, so living with other people of like mindsets is appealing. They have community and solo work hours and projects, intermittent communal meals, weekly DND sessions with most of the people that live there. They host semi-private (invitation only.) events a few times a year where people of similar views attend from the broader community. It is also a cheap option to live, as you get a room or camper for a lot cheaper than the going local rate.
They don't advertise or have much of a public presence, and gain members through relationships.
It isn't fancy. There are a lot of neurodivergents of various diagnoses so...unfinished projects are pretty common on the property and it isn't...a place where the lawn is mown every 2 weeks or neatly landscaped. It's a little wild.
It is not an INTJ type of community--I don't think anyone involved is likely an INTJ. The binding factor ideologically is that the group is liberals, almost alt-left, in a state and community that is predominantly conservative. It is mostly formed of various types of neurodivergents, most who are at least peripherally involved in liberal activism, conservation efforts, the local ACLU, ect.
It was founded by some of my close friends I met doing environmental activism in our state in college--The Community has lasted about ten years so far, and paid off their original land through member dues and some produce sales. They recently added 25 acres more and are working on paying it down. There are 7 completely bought in members or so, and about 15 or 20 members of lesser status (Either supporters or members of the community that are not buying in or people in the process to become full time members.) Age range is 25-75. The children raised in it have not stayed members, but younger people intermittently join.
To become a member, you first come live there for 5 days. Bought in members then vote on letting you stay a month, if you pass they vote again at 1 month and 3 months. After that point you are free to stay as long as you want unless you do something egregious that gets you voted off. After a year of living in the community, you can buy in for 1-5k, depending on the plot of land and it's location (Close to utilities, easily accessible, on a south facing slope, this costs more.) As a non member you pay 45$ a month and your share of utilities, as a member you pay 100$ a month and your share of utilities. Everyone is required to contribute 10 hours a month to developing the commune, and you can buy out half your hours in a month by contributing financially to the community. You can buy more votes by purchasing more 1/2 acre lots, with approval of existing members.
Depending on what is available when you move there, you either live in one of the established community houses with roommates, in a camper attached to the grid, or in a tent or other structure you provide. Most bought in members have built their own homes on the property.
I am mostly interested in the group for the community part. I don't have kids or intend to have kids, so living with other people of like mindsets is appealing. They have community and solo work hours and projects, intermittent communal meals, weekly DND sessions with most of the people that live there. They host semi-private (invitation only.) events a few times a year where people of similar views attend from the broader community. It is also a cheap option to live, as you get a room or camper for a lot cheaper than the going local rate.
They don't advertise or have much of a public presence, and gain members through relationships.
It isn't fancy. There are a lot of neurodivergents of various diagnoses so...unfinished projects are pretty common on the property and it isn't...a place where the lawn is mown every 2 weeks or neatly landscaped. It's a little wild.