The Real Philip Deal

[philipreal]

About me:
I’m writing this introduction in the afternoon of 09/13/24, and my cat has just laid down on me (thank you Rosie, you’re very cute). My thoughts on things have already evolved some from my introduction post I wrote last night, but I’ll go into a bit more detail here.

First: the present.
As mentioned, I’m 22, recently graduated from college with a major in political science and a minor in pre-law. I’ve got about 40k NW currently (going up constantly), of which about 10k are in 401k/Roth and the other 30k are in CDs/HYSA (the intent is for this to be law school money). I have a sort of intern-like position at a local law firm (basically do whatever anyone needs me to do) that pays around 55k a year gross (although I’m not intending to stay at it for more than about a year, which they are aware of). I also play violin and piano semi-professionally, but currently have very low emphasis on this. I essentially never look for gigs to play myself nor advertise, but people ask me to play things and I do, and I’m honestly not really sure how much I make from this a year. Probably somewhere around 10k?

I did some rough math and realized I currently have somewhere around a 70% savings rate right now before trying to implement any changes to my life from ERE, MMM, these forums, or really anywhere else. (It’s probably more, but also I’m planning to visit Japan next summer with friends so I feel like I should try to include the cost of it in there some. I don’t know.) That’s pretty cool! It makes me question my near-current strategy, which I’ll go more in-depth in in the future section. I’m probably somewhere 4-5ish on the Wheaton scale, which idk seems pretty cool to me, we’ll see how/if we can boost those numbers over time. I noticed in the forums that a lot of people noted their Myers Briggs type, I don’t remember what mine is, but I took an online big 5 personality test and it said I’m in the bottom 1% for neuroticism, which I don’t disagree with. Nice!

Second: the future.
I’m lucky/skilled/smart enough that I can surely go to law school with free tuition somewhere, and potentially get free tuition at some very good law schools. I would go to law school, get a biglaw job paying me >200k a year just to start out, do the work for 5-6 years (maybe less if I found a similarly thinking SO) and then “retire.” This was my pretty basic FIRE thinking, and to some extent it was predicated on an assumption that I would be wanting to live on significantly more money than I do now. I now feel a lot less sure that that is/will be the case. How my thoughts on this change over time will likely be a significant part of this journal.

I’m also realizing once again how difficult it is for me to make a direct statement without qualifying it in some way. I care about being accurate in my communication, although that does come at the cost of clarity/ease of reading sometimes. If it’s annoying I’ll improve it. I hope you enjoy reading what I post or find it interesting/valuable in some way. I will be following this up with two journal posts describing some of my actions towards ERE that I’ve taken so far.

[philipreal]

Post 1: 09/12/24: Getting my bike

I live in a pretty small (and cheap!) apartment near the college campus that I was attending until last spring, and I had never brought my bike to where I live. I had thought that since I live in a slightly-sketchy area, it would be a bad idea to keep my bike outside, and just never brought it, leading to many unnecessary trips by car (although at least I was close enough to campus to always walk back and forth from my classes/other campus events/activities).

Today, I resolved that I should have my bike at my house, and with just a small amount of actively thinking about it, I found a solution. I could put it in the communal laundry room in the basement (my roommates and I have the rest of the basement), and it would be completely safe there, and there’s enough room for the bike to be out of the way there.

With that out of the way, the only issue was getting it to my apartment. My bike was at my parent’s place, and they live about four miles away. I’m working on becoming more physically fit, and I’m proud to say I ran there (walked a little bit) and then biked it home. Tomorrow I will bike to work (not very excited for it since it’s about 6 miles of not very bike-friendly city), and we will see how it goes. What I will try to take from this is to try to remain open to solutions. When I encounter a problem or an inconvenience (I’m not sure where I would put my bike at my apartment), I should put some genuine effort into trying to fix the problem or find a work-around rather than just immediately giving up on the matter.

[philipreal]

Post 2: 09/13/24: Using my bike

Today I biked to work and back, and while it wasn’t an easy or awesome journey, it wasn’t that bad. On most Fridays I only work 8 AM to 1 PM, and we get to dress more casually (polo and jeans vs. dress shirt+dress pants), so it was easier to convince myself to try biking today than it would be on other days.

What is more notable is how the decision to ride my bike instead of drive affected other decisions. Before choosing to ride my bike, I was planning to drive to work, and then on my way home I would stop at Walmart to get some groceries, a restaurant (that did have a particularly good deal happening) to get some tasty food, and at an office to pick up my music for my city’s symphony orchestra that I play in (all not very out of the way).

Instead, what happened is that I rode my bike to work, and then on my way home I biked to the symphony office before going home. I decided I didn’t need to stop at Walmart (I really should be using up more of what I have in my freezer before getting more food), and I definitely didn’t need to stop at the restaurant (it would be tasty, sure, but I was planning on getting it more because it would be pretty convenient to get, and a nice week-end treat rather than a real and specific desire to have this food in my life).

Total round-trip was about 14 miles of biking. Now, I’ll have to decide how often I will bike to work. It certainly would be worse biking there in dress clothes, and my bike isn’t in the best condition. However, I will try to remind myself that these are potentially solvable inconveniences, and I should try to solve them before going, “Ah well, I’ll just take the car.”

This also ends the run of posts I wrote before I had access.

[candide]

I’m also realizing once again how difficult it is for me to make a direct statement without qualifying it in some way. I care about being accurate in my communication, although that does come at the cost of clarity/ease of reading sometimes. If it’s annoying I’ll improve it. I hope you enjoy reading what I post or find it interesting/valuable in some way.

Hey Philip (if I may presume your first name), unlike some of the other threads, you should feel free to write however you like in your journal.

I think your qualifying statements are fine. You might vary how you punctuation your qualification -- sometimes dashes, sometimes commas -- rather than just relying on parenthesis, but even what you are doing is an acceptable stylistic choice (this is coming from a former (English) teacher).

Just post on a relatively regular schedule and people will respond from time to time. But even if you don't get a response, don't worry, a lot of people read a lot more than they respond here.

[NewBlood]

Welcome!
and good luck with getting into/through law school!
I'm guessing one of your future challenges will be to keep lifestyle inflation at bay once you get a big law job. I don't know any lawyers personally, but it sounds like peer pressure in that field can be quite high.

[suomalainen]

The legal profession sucks. Do something else. As far as T-14, yeah, no one is giving you a significant scholarship; it doesn't matter what your scores or grades are (but only one way to find out for sure). As far as biglaw, yeah, you're unlikely to get such a position coming from a school that WILL pay you to go there. The drop-off outside of T-14 is dramatic (or at least was back in the day when I was paying attention). So, you generally have to pick one or the other.

So, two observations: there is a bi-modal salary distribution of lawyers and AI may have the effect of narrowing the funnel for starting lawyers, particularly at biglaw. So, my advice to wanna-be lawyers thinking about law school is: 1) don't go; 2) if you go, have someone else pay for it, OR have it be something you desperately dream of doing (given that coming out of law school you'll have a mortgage without a house to show for it). And why you'd desperately dream of being a corporate lawyer is beyond me.

[Scott 2]

Sounds like you have the raw materials to write your path. And based on the musical talent, probably a strong family support?

I'l ask - if you're already imagining an exit, what then? The career path hasn't really started, you can do anything.

Also worth noting - many things you can do in your 20's, are no longer available in your 30's, let alone beyond. Being young and dumb might feel irresponsible, but don't skip it.

The ideas here can give you freedom. And fast. It doesn't require financial independence. It doesn't take even 5 years. It's a shift in mindset.

I haven't known many lawyers, but never a happy one.

[philipreal]

Thanks for the initial comments, I'll try to clarify some, add more context about myself, and consider what people have said to me.

More about me:
I left high school at about the top of my class, with significant involvement in Many extracurricular activities, and people expected big things from me, even voting me "most likely to be president" in the yearbook. In my first year in college, I went away from home to a Good state school, with a significant scholarship and my parents funding the rest. I was intending to major in physics, I was good at math and science and was interested in nuclear energy. When I was there I did incredibly poorly, failing like a third of my classes and just generally barely showing up and participating. After this, my parents indicated that they wouldn't help pay for college if I was going to fail my classes, so I spent the next year working in my hometown. This was an incredibly embarrassing and bad time for me.

The next fall, I transferred my credits to the college that was in my hometown, and moved out to an apartment close to campus. I completed a Political Science degree in two years of attending the new college. My parents didn't personally fund any of the tuition there, but I could do it without debt because my Dad teaches at the college, which allows me a discount on tuition, and also I had a part-time job that paid around 5k a year in tuition refunds. Those, combined with money from the part-time job and money from musical gigs allowed me to get through those two years of college while being able to take care of myself as well.

I chose Political Science because I was fairly interested in politics at the time, wanted to do something different from what I had failed at, and also remembered "lawyer" as a potential career option that I had previously considered and thought I'd be good at. My interest in being a lawyer increased in my first semester where I took part in a paid market research opportunity where I was essentially a mock juror for a lawsuit between two companies. While the case itself was boring, I watched the lawyers and I thought "I could do that." During the rest of my time in college I took most of the law-related classes that were offered, being especially interested when some touched on international law (the teacher did a very good job at providing relevant current examples in class, and the Israel/Palestine conflict was very active by that point).

It is possible and even likely that some extent of my drive to be a lawyer is a reaction to my feelings of failure and embarrassment, since it's a fairly respected and unassailable job title. While I feel I have many positive and good reasons that I would like to go to law school and practice law, I will continue to try to interrogate myself on my motivations.

The legal profession sucks. Do something else. As far as T-14, yeah, no one is giving you a significant scholarship; it doesn't matter what your scores or grades are (but only one way to find out for sure). As far as biglaw, yeah, you're unlikely to get such a position coming from a school that WILL pay you to go there. The drop-off outside of T-14 is dramatic (or at least was back in the day when I was paying attention). So, you generally have to pick one or the other.

So, two observations: there is a bi-modal salary distribution of lawyers and AI may have the effect of narrowing the funnel for starting lawyers, particularly at biglaw. So, my advice to wanna-be lawyers thinking about law school is: 1) don't go; 2) if you go, have someone else pay for it, OR have it be something you desperately dream of doing (given that coming out of law school you'll have a mortgage without a house to show for it). And why you'd desperately dream of being a corporate lawyer is beyond me.

One thing that I found interesting about this comment is that it initially made me feel quite defensive and made me want to respond with something like "I know more about my plans and chances than you, so just be quiet and watch me." I feel glad that I noticed that and will try to attenuate it in the future. I will say that I am basically sure that I will be able to go to at least some law schools for zero tuition cost. I can't be sure to what extent very good schools will give me good money, so I will try to plan for any possibility, and I don't plan on going anywhere I would accumulate significant debt. You are entirely right about the bimodal salary distribution, but also I'm a lot less worried about that than I used to be, since I've realized I can live completely comfortably and happily while maintaining a solid SR even at the low end. Also regarding newblood's point about peer pressure/lifestyle inflation, I will try to remain wary of this.

I'l ask - if you're already imagining an exit, what then? The career path hasn't really started, you can do anything.
Also worth noting - many things you can do in your 20's, are no longer available in your 30's, let alone beyond. Being young and dumb might feel irresponsible, but don't skip it.
The ideas here can give you freedom. And fast. It doesn't require financial independence. It doesn't take even 5 years. It's a shift in mindset.
I haven't known many lawyers, but never a happy one.

I think it's less that I'm imagining an exit before I start, and more that I want to keep the window of future possibilities in my life as wide as possible. I can do anything, but also I have set myself up to get my law degree, and want to do it. I will try to consider whether sunk-cost fallacy thinking is influencing this at all, but I feel pretty sure.
I currently work in a law firm, and know a couple lawyers outside of work, and there are definitely some happy ones. Also, I think I'm generally better than most people at being happy, so I'm not too worried about the unhappy lawyer idea, and if I really hate it, I'll do something else.

I am interested in exactly what you mean regarding the things you can do in your 20s that aren't available in your 30s. Can you (or anyone else who wants to) expand on that?

[philipreal]

I've been reading through the Re: What is your FIRE number? Your expected FIRE expenses? thread at viewtopic.php?t=7870&start=180 and Jacob's quote here mirrors some of my thoughts. I want to be prepared to make changes in my life when I want to.

Now, I was FI at 30 but didn't retire my physics work until I was 33. So I went 3 years beyond FI. Not for financial reasons but because I liked my work.

At 30 astrophysics was still fun to me. I said things like "I'm still gonna do this for free when I'm 80 yo". But when I was 33, it was no longer fun to me. I got sick of "ice-cream" so to speak.

(Hence my concern when people say that the solution is just to find your so-called passion. Well, for some people passions change ... and if they do, and you're not FI or at least FU, you're fecked.)

[Scott 2]

Most won't complain about quality of life to coworkers. Take their perspective on the profession with a grain of salt. I'd encourage you to search @suomalainen's post history for "lawyer" and consider his input more strongly. He's at the destination, offering you a glimpse at the path forward.



During your 20's, you have physical health, low social expectations, few dependent commitments, maximal mental acuity, etc. The environment is also as good as it's going to be.

This is your chance to go teach English in Japan for a year, bike across the country, live with roommates and party every night, work as a scuba instructor in Hawaii, etc.

A year or a couple years delay on "big plans" is totally forgivable. And it's when your peers have time and space for the same. You don't want to be the 40 year old at the club, so to speak.

[Lemur]

@Scott 2

Counterpoint - During your 20s is also prime time (energy, vitality, no big commitments unless you married or had kids early or something) to really grind, put in the work, and have the assets you need in 5-10 years to be set for "do whatever the fu*k you want" for the rest of your life .

[Scott 2]

That's not really how it goes though. Family gets sick. The barrier reefs die. A pandemic hits. You stumble into marriage and a kid. Work offers golden handcuffs. Parents age.

Freedom at 30 depends on more than just money. Some things cannot be recaptured.

Every year of the accumulation phase is also life passing. The big law grind pays, because it sacrifices young adulthood. If that's the most exciting path for OP, then by all means, go for it. Success probably doesn't culminate in peacing out at 30 though.

You're forever changed. Doors have closed. There's no avoiding it. After 10 years invested, with half a million plus in annual income on the table, walking off the partner track isn't easy.

[NewBlood]

I am interested in exactly what you mean regarding the things you can do in your 20s that aren't available in your 30s. Can you (or anyone else who wants to) expand on that?

If you are or think you'll ever be interested in a homesteading type lifestyle, getting those skills while you're young and strong might be easier.

Echoing what Scott2 said, if you want to go on weeks-long hiking/biking trips, that's a lot easier both physically and socially (finding people who have time to do it with you) in your 20s. The next time window if you don't want to do it alone is when your friends retire. If you're still able to do it then... I'm the 40ish yr old wanting to do these things now but all my friends have young kids, busy work lives. All my hiking buddies are 55+ yr old...

Generally, trying out different lifestyles is easier in your 20s when you don't have other big commitments and is more socially acceptable.

Also, Hristo Botev is another lawyer on the forum, reading his journal might be insightful if you haven't read it yet.

[chenda]

The legal profession sucks.

My understanding was that American lawyers can earn very high hourly rates, lending it ideal for part time or freelance work. Like on this old thread. $30 000 a year for 15 hours a week seems like a pretty good deal.

viewtopic.php?t=860&hilit=Lawyer

[Lemur]

@Scott 2

To some extent, I’m playing Devils advocate here but stating “that’s not really how it goes” may apply to a general population that is not living deliberately…but to someone like OP who is planning years out and future FI - I don’t think they fit in that bucket.

Do challenge my thinking here. But all those problems you list out - family/pandemic etc…I don’t see how they’re relevant to career choice? Stumbling into marriage and kids early certainly is a choice though.

A high income gives options and is really only a handcuff if you make it so.

I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the lawyer partner track that OP is thinking about. What doors are closed exactly? It isn’t like being in your 30s is even old…if anything I see a lot of doors opening up! There may be a concern with losing youthful time but getting FI ASAP will save more free time in the long run.

Ultimately OP will make the best decision for them with the best information and feelings they’ve - I just wanted to point out that there are certainly tradeoffs to choosing the teach English in Asia route. Getting FI as soon as possible while young and not disillusioned yet with wage slavery creates incredible optionality.

[Scott 2]

The problems I list relate to grinding out your twenties. It's not specific to one career, but the choice of what comes first. Time passes and closes doors. No matter what.

Similar to NewBlood, my experience of not working was one of activities surrounded by nobody my age. Women in their 60's and 70's mostly, though at the gym - early 20's and even teenagers.

30-60 is at work or raising kids. At least in my suburban enclave. Where I'm established, bound by family ties and home ownership. Especially if the search space is constrained to people I connect with, after working my way to FI.


The experience of work changes you as a person. Having money changes you. Handcuffs become more than financial. The identity shift is permanent.

It's part of why I'd now discourage a quiet quit mindset. Practice giving 20% long enough, that becomes your new ceiling. Conversely - intensely farm a cubicle for a decade, maybe it's your creativity or openness to new ideas that dies instead.


@Chenda - The guy I hired to assemble my garage shelves cleared $40/hr. And he doesn't have to compete with AI. It's going to eat the bottom end of most knowledge work. It raises the ceiling for winners, but that likely represents a redistribution of wealth.

[jacob]

The problems I list relate to grinding out your twenties. It's not specific to one career, but the choice of what comes first. Time passes and closes doors. No matter what.

OTOH, accumulated time and effort also opens doors. The person who started coding at age 11 has a decade of experience by the time they graduate college compared to someone who is just starting out. The person who saved $100k by age 30 will likely have a quarter million by age 40 (and half at 50) due to exponential compounding without lifting a finger or saving another dime.

There are direct tradeoffs, but some choices like 100hr workweeks or saving 100k will very likely pay off in spades whereas the memories of teaching English in Asia while backpacking or partying on a beach will eventually be just that.

One way to think of it is to determine whether one is spending time on an investment or on consumption. Likely this is very individual and depending on what one ultimately values. For example, it's popular to spend money and time on experiences that turn into nothing but memories. If you're someone who likes to reminisce about the past, loading up on memories is perhaps a good way to spend ones 20s (as you rightly point on, a certain kind of memories are easier to obtain at this age than later on). However, if you're someone who rarely think about the past and instead are focused on what you can do now and in the future, then time spent creating memories is essentially wasted.

[purple]

Every year of the accumulation phase is also life passing.

I disagree with this quote so much that I logged in to post a comment. Hi everyone.

It's really up to an individual how to structure a fulfilling life. As documented multiple time, FIRE/ERE doesn't automatically mean that life becomes all rainbows. Working career doesn't have to equal wasted time. I find this dichotomy really harmful as it implies that parts of one's life are not valuable somehow.

We are all mortal and sometimes death happens suddenly, without an advanced warning. So waiting out the accumulation years actually sounds like a waste to me. One may not even get to the "real life" in this concept due to some unfortunate accident. And then what? How is that a desirable outcome?

Sure, full-time work limits some options and requires time and effort. Still, don't resolve to misery and waiting until a significant chunk of your life passes. 10 years of work could be a 10% of your whole lifetime. it could be even more %. Find something fun and engaging to do in the meanwhile. Build relationships. Build skills. Try new things. Get to know yourself. Find ways to engage in your careers that suck slightly less or even provide some positive challenge.

It's really all in the mindset.

purple,
writing from the trenches of accumulation stage

[philipreal]

Thanks for the comments everyone! Much to think about. As of now I certainly won't pause my law school application preparation, but I'll also make sure to take some time to consider what other possibilities could be and try to consider them more Web-of-Goals style. Before I would have considered things in mainly a money/time metric.

Otherwise, I'll mention some other things I haven't spent much time on yet. Cooking-wise I'm making a greater effort to avoid waste and come up with food based on what I have. Last night I made a beefy mac and cheese w/ no recipe, just throwing together what I had, and I made the roux for the cheese sauce using the fat left over from cooking the beef, and it was quite a tasty meal. I also managed to catch a package of cheese that would have expired at the end of the week and used that in the sauce, so very good all around (except perhaps nutritionally—I'll just have to not eat too much). Fall is nice, I get some free produce from my parents' garden and at work people sometimes bring in some extra vegetables as well.

Exercise-wise, I'm still trying to get consistent workouts, although over the last few months I've been much closer to consistent than previously. As far as I'm concerned, I've perfected my home gym setup, consisting of a walking treadmill, a weight bench with a couple adjustable dumbbells, and most recently a weight rack, which I can hang my gymnastic rings from. I've put it together over a couple years, and while I now feel I should've made more effort to find stuff used, I still put the whole thing together for probably <$350. The only downside is that I feel less motivated to work out when it's hot outside, since our apartment doesn't have AC, although I'll try to take advantage of the thermogenic effect as colder weather comes.

I try to redirect my desire not to workout in my hot room into one to get back into running some, with some promising effects, I jogged a full 5 miles nearly without stopping to walk at all the weekend-before-last, and expect further improvements as I continue that and also use my bike to get around more. I did track and cross country throughout high school and I'm very far from what I could do then, but hey! we get better. I think the track/cross country history has led to some funny results in my weight training: I can do a pretty similar number of pistol squats with each leg as I can push-ups, with the caveat being that the pushups are quite deep ones using parallettes (I sometimes get wrist pain from floor push-ups) where I make sure to go slowly on the negative.

I'm currently 6'2 and 200 lbs, and I've been kind of wavering between the decision to try to lose some weight or to roughly maintain while trying to build muscle and lose fat. I think the former may become easier as I simplify and regularize my diet some while eating out less, so I'll probably try to do some of that.

I'm also trying to read through some of the journals, although man they can be Long. Someone somewhere in them said something like "It's very valuable to be able to live through the lives of others" and I'm tending to agree.

[Scott 2]

@purple, I think my post was unclear. I agree with you. In hindsight, I would have spent more and been more chill during my accumulation phase. Especially when I was in my early 20's.

I had the resources to make life easier for loved ones, but didn't. I didn't understand the leverage spending an extra $10k could offer. I was in a linear race towards my goal. I didn't fully appreciate the branching, possibly nonlinear paths.

Compounding applies to more than money. Relationship and skill investments offer much less obvious returns. Backpacking Europe might offer exponential payoff, that take decades to play out. Or maybe attending ERE fest offers a fundamental paradigm shift, completely altering one's course through life.

At 40 - some of those original problems are still present. Only now they are chronic and potentially intractable. There's no guarantee acting 20 years ago would have been successful, but the odds were more in my favor.

To Jacob's point, I did reap other rewards. I can take in mid week yoga with my Mom these days. The win / lose balance is never perfectly clear.