Frita’s Lost and Found

[Frita]

Thank you, all. My spouse’s public persona is very important to him, so our safety involves not threatening that. I liken it to avalanche survival, finding which way is up and expanding my space while I wait and stay calm.

When I use the Power and Control Wheel as a tool, I note that abuse is complex and much more that “just” a number of physical incidents I can count on my hand. In no way do I mean to minimize my experience, nor someone else’s. My personal hang up was/is certainly my traditional views of marriage based on programming that are not congruent with what I know and believe.

[cimorene12]

I think it's worth trying to find a group that will listen to your side of the story.

[Frita]

Thank you, all, for posting. I do appreciate the support. As @ffj pointed out, people don’t always know what really goes on beyond closed doors. At least what I have observed in the US (wide brush here), there is a lense that domestic violence occurs to the poor and/or uneducated. From my experience, many services are geared toward this population. As someone not in that category, that actually isolates me more.

I think it's worth trying to find a group that will listen to your side of the story.

Just getting curious as I don’t know you from the forum…it appears that you joined in 2011 and are new to posting: What assumptions are you making with that statement? Are you suggesting that I cannot write this in my journal here and should instead “find a group”?

Edit: Corrected date/year.

[Biscuits and Gravy]

The best thing I ever did was leave my first husband. In front of a marriage therapist (safe space), I confronted him about some of those things listed on the Power and Control Wheel, and he was SHOCKED that I experienced those things as abuse, and for some of them he even denied having ever done them (which is, of course, also listed on that wheel). When we got home, he then engaged in some of those behaviors. Humans are funny. I still vividly remember the day he was yelling at me because the baby was crying and he suddenly stopped and said, “oh my god, I do abuse you.” Point is, you don’t have to stay with a bad-for-you man, and sometimes they don’t even think that they’re abusing you.

Aside, I remember cimorene12 from long ago. I wonder where all of his old posts went.

[ertyu]

Just getting curious as I don’t know you from the forum…it appears that you joined in 2011 and are new to posting: What assumptions are you making with that statement? Are you suggesting that I cannot write this in my journal here and should instead “find a group”?

I'm not cimorene but my immediate understanding when I read "I suggest you find a group" was, "there exist mutual support in-person groups for people going through divorce and belonging to a group like that might help." My understanding was, in addition to posting here, not instead of. A local group can be a source of local knowledge about available resources and legal matters - what practical ducks you need to get in a row. It might also be validation that you're not alone in what is happening to you and that you didn't cause abuse ABCD to happen to you and it is not your fault. Different people need this social aspect of healing to different degrees, esp because as you mentioned, abuse is isolating and can leave you feeling like you're somehow alone and other -- e.g. that you're alone in being educated and not lower class, etc. In-person mutual social support might help, but 0 of that means that you can't post here -- we are all here reading and rooting for you even if we differ in the actual help we can actually be. I definitely took the suggestion of an in-person group as, "here is an additional resource you might consider" and not, "you should be doing that, not this." In fact, the second interpretation did not even occur to me. I'm sure I'm not speaking just for myself when i say that I am interested in what you post here, im invested in you doing well, and im rooting for you.

On reddit, when stories of abuse pop up, the book Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft gets recommended virtually every time. The author worked with men who abused their spouses and is intimately familiar with their bullshit; his book might be a source of additional information and validation. The other standard piece of advice I hear is to keep your plans to leave quiet until you've gotten all your ducks in a row. The suggested course of action is, get a lawyer, call a helpline to discuss strategies to get out safely, get out, get safe, then inform and serve him. Keep your internet search history clean, too. All of this is likely not be news to you, but I am repeating what I've heard in case it is helpful. Plus, you mentioned strangulation, which makes me think you're aware it's an indicator that one needs to be on the more cautious side when leaving. Strength, and best of luck to you. We're all rooting for you.

[Frita]

Thank you for sharing your experience and offering hope. I am so happy for you! My story isn’t over either.

Some people in our society narrowly define abuse as physical only. Not true. As the Equity Wheel shows, there are many healthy, pro-relational options. https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-conte ... 318546.jpg My spouse knows that these things were not okay because he did not do them before we were married because I would have passed. Even now, his excuse is not being able to control himself. (I am not talking about physical abuse. That stopped. If it happens again, I will file charges and he knows it.)

Edited for my typos

[Frita]

Ertyu, I trust you meant well and were most likely practicing the coaching skills you’re thinking of offering others online for $20. I like you and need you to understand this:

I was not requesting that you mindread what cimorene was thinking, nor answer for them. Your advice makes similar assumptions as the poster in question, which you did not appear to consider.

I have read Lundy’s book and am familiar with its contents. (If anyone would like more suggested reading on the topic, reach out and I can share what I personally found helpful.) I did not find your post helpful, nor supportive, nor insightful. It came off more as mansplaining.

Edited to soften my tone as I may be overly sensitive

[Biscuits and Gravy]

My story isn’t over either.

Not at all, so far from it. Sometimes I catch myself thinking “I should have left earlier,” but we’re not ready to leave until we’re ready to leave. I left when we had a house, a two year old, and an infant together, and I don’t regret anything. All those years with him serve to highlight how wonderful my life and partner are now. No light without darkness and all.

[suomalainen]

I realize that no-contact, a legal separation or divorce, and eliminating contact with anyone he interacts with would be ideal. My son wants a relationship with his father. I can’t ask him to go no-contact, nor should I. That last thing is the sticking point.

Can you explain more here? I thought your son was already pretty old? Why would you need to continue to be involved in the father-son relationship?

[Frita]

Sometimes I catch myself thinking “I should have left earlier,” but we’re not ready to leave until we’re ready to leave…All those years with him serve to highlight how wonderful my life and partner are now.

Well, sometimes one doesn’t know until they know. (This applies to so many things in life beyond the marriage thing.). “Just leave” is easier advice to give than implement. It can set up a double victim situation of being blamed for not leaving, which feels shitty. Thanks for not doing that.

There are many lessons in life. I find some reveal themselves quicker than others. Or they keep repeating so I can figure them out.

[Frita]

Can you explain more here? I thought your son was already pretty old? Why would you need to continue to be involved in the father-son relationship?

Sure, thanks for asking questions. It helps me clarify my thinking and what I wrote.

Yes, my son is 19 years old and attending the university. He lives at home. My domestic violence assessment came back with an extremely high chance of violence if I were to leave (which is statistically the highest risk time for being killed). I was advised to press charges, file a restraining order, go into a safe house, tell no one where I am at, and file for divorce. That doesn’t really work with my son’s life.

[ertyu]

Ertyu, I trust you meant well and were most likely practicing the coaching skills you’re thinking of offering others online for $20. I like you and need you to understand this:

I was not requesting that you mindread what cimorene was thinking, nor answer for them. Your advice makes similar assumptions as the poster in question, which you did not appear to consider.

I have read Lundy’s book and am familiar with its contents. (If anyone would like more suggested reading on the topic, reach out and I can share what I personally found helpful.) I did not find your post helpful, nor supportive, nor insightful. It came off more as mansplaining.

Edited to soften my tone as I may be overly sensitive

I'm sorry. Getting my ass out of here now. Still wishing you the best.

[suomalainen]

That doesn’t really work with my son’s life.

… because you think hubby/dad would get violent towards son? Or it’d make for awkward dinner conversation? Or something in between?

Edit: also, what does son think? Does he even know about the abuse? I know these are super personal, but since you shared … and I know you can close up shop if it gets to be too much.

[Frita]

I'm sorry. Getting my ass out of here now. Still wishing you the best.

Thank you, I never questioned your intentions and am sad to see you go. I like you too much to not be honest. You are always welcome.

[Frita]

… because you think hubby/dad would get violent towards son? Or it’d make for awkward dinner conversation? Or something in between?

Edit: also, what does son think? Does he even know about the abuse? I know these are super personal, but since you shared … and I know you can close up shop if it gets to be too much.

Well, it’s more of a classic lose-lose. My spouse has told me that he is angry at his mother and has a compulsion to abuse. He told me he has an addiction toward abusing. He was abusive towards my son after his twin died at age four. Hard stop, no, absolutely f-ing not. Never. Ever. It stopped, has not happened since, and cannot happen again. So, yeah, leaving no-contact means setting my son up. And our son was is gay…not that it’s an issue TO ME. It is my my spouse. I am tougher than to leave behind my son (crying as I write that).

Awkward dinner conversation? No. I don’t spend time with people who treat me as with disrespect and contempt, nor time with those who marginalize others. I don’t invite such individuals into my inner circle either and, if they have somehow managed to infiltrate, they cannot remain.

Our son locks his door nightly. He has seen his father hit me, heard him threaten to kill me and kill himself, and our son is sensitive and intelligent. It’s a something I could never imagine. I awake in the morning and slowly become sick to my stomach as I awaken to my reality.

Yes, this is personal and uncomfortable and messy. I appreciate your acknowledgment of that and willingness to let me tap out. Thank you.

As I feel incredibly fearful and certain, I know that something it out there for me. I feel something greater than myself cheering me on. I am certain of something greater than myself cheering me on. And I feel great peace.

[suomalainen]

Two things:

1) The tone seems to have changed since you got back from your summer trip. Before your trip, you were talking about how hubby wanted you to leave so he could remain the good guy but wouldn't have to deal with you and son which he doesn't want to do anyway, and you even took off for 3 months, but since you've been back, it's

My domestic violence assessment came back with an extremely high chance of violence if I were to leave (which is statistically the highest risk time for being killed).

which is a really stark / dark turn of events. What happened? Your prior assessment turned out to be too generous to hubby and he was triggered by your 3 month absence and he's turned up the abuse and now it's "Holy shit, this motherfucker might actually kill me"?

2) I'm not projecting or pointing fingers or anything, but I'll offer up the rhetorical question from a son's point of view: maybe your son is also tougher than you think? I was abused by my father while my mother didn't quite have the strength to stand up for me until I threatened to kill myself or him when I was 14 or so. While her support was finally helpful, it wasn't a key moment or anything; it was mostly time, aging and the distance of going away to college that broke his grip on me. It's been a strained relationship ever since, but as a son, you eventually have to accept that you didn't have the father you wanted. [shrug] Life goes on. Not sure if you're trying to mediate any "I have a shitty dad" feelings or if you are worried that dad would actually murder son if the two were left alone.

[Henry]

Frita's boat trip was obviously not what it seemed and I apologize for joking about it. It seems to have led to this disclosure, which has to be personally monumental. The sheer act of revelation has much more significance than any of the responses it garners. I used to hear these types of stories in 12 steps where there was no response allowed. I could see the development of the story and the solution over time through one sided narration. I'm sure there were people more intimately involved but I could see the need for just unfettered and unfiltered disclosure to non-judgmental kind of strangers. That's not to say I didn't have to repress cracking up after we all said "thank you for sharing" after hearing someone talk about being fingered by their uncle in a car trunk.

[Frita]

Thank you for sharing your experience with your abusive father. That sounds hard.

Yes, my tone has changed. (I actually did the assessment about a month after starting counseling last year, so November/December 2023. The things that contributed to said score would still produce a comparable score.) Leaving for three month was an experiment in how a separation could play out. I learned that just being away from him is not enough, which is something I was advised and didn’t believe it until I experienced it.

My spouse would like a divorce under his terms: 1) The abuse continues. 2) I initiate it so he can be the “nice guy” victim. 3) I just go away with nothing. Or it’s a battle from him to retain control and punish me. I find the options unpalatable. Note that he will not leave, nor file, despite what he’s told me.

My son and I get along really well. I don’t want to abandon him. I would miss him. I have no question that he’s tough.

You’re like the ERE version of Dear Sugar. There certainly is something liberating to admitting what the situation is. It’s a process.

I have been thinking about freedom to and freedom from as it pertains to being divorced. I don’t know what I want to do, but not living in a Lifetime movie would be a step in the right direction. What appeals to me more is freedom for a peaceful existence. That focus feels more productive.

[Sclass]

If I have one big regret about my life it’s not cutting my abusive dad out of my life.

I tried but I kept getting sucked back into the drama. My mom became my excuse.

I should have left her with the man she wanted most.

As I clean out my parents’ place I really am getting to know them in new ways. They were sick people. I should have just bailed on both of them.

ETA. Hey sorry to post this here it kind of just came out when I thought about your story. Brought back a lot of memories. Good luck sorting this thing out. I hope you get free of this.

[Frita]

Thank you for sharing, Sclass, your experience of detaching from your abusive father and mother who tolerated it. Leaving is hard. Knowing when to go full no-contact is tricky too. It sounds like the clean out is an exercise in processing some past experiences and validation of your instincts. I certainly wish you safe passage as you navigate this.

Your story sparked an insight: A healthy relationship requires healthy enough behavior and communication from everyone involved. There needs to be mutual empathy, willingness to change, and desire to cooperate to create something better. My spouse could talk the talk to pass premarital counseling but never could follow through on that commitment. No amount of blaming me could substitute for him doing his part. Working harder on my end certainly didn’t balance his inaction. I certainly have regrets and want to minimize creating more regrettable experiences.

Also, my sister went no-contact with our mom 25+ years ago and cutoff everyone, including me. I can understand and respect the decision. (Though I don’t know for sure, I suspect it was based on the abuse of our childhood. Our dad died when I was nine. My mom continues her SOP.) I am curious if my sister has regrets or not, if she has had a peaceful life, and wish her well too. Having boundaries with my mother is very hard as I am her target of blame. (Yeah, turns out I married my parents.)