Reversion to Level Orange

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
Laura Ingalls
Posts: 703
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by Laura Ingalls »

@ WRC
Hanging out with and ERE person might be a little like hanging out with a close friend who is a vegan or a cross-fit enthusiast. Even if they are an extremely cool and amazing person, sometimes judgments creep out unconsciously. They often aren't aware of their own blinders.

During my stint as a Whole Foods employee we joked about if someone was both a vegan and a cross-fit enthusiast which would they blab about first. Kind of a which came first the chicken or the egg.

My other contribution to this conversation is that people don’t like feeling poor. I had a conversation with someone that was struggling with an unhappy marriage and was afraid to leave. She said outright she was afraid of being poor. I pointed out some of the safety net available. She didn’t want to hear about it and I figured out that actual poverty was not the issue feeling poor was. Your friend burning $250k is afraid of feeling poor because she keeps social media comparing herself to people who spend $500k.

Some people are so afraid of feeling poor that it keeps them broke. Those of us here don’t care. That’s why you are collectively my people :geek: :mrgreen:
Last edited by Laura Ingalls on Thu Jul 04, 2024 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

zbigi wrote:she must be some kind of educated idiot
Not an idiot. She graduated top of class from one of the top 3 law schools in the U.S. She just hasn't studied math very much. Also, she was in babbling nonsensical shit in argument mode. However, I will note that when I did gently try to explain how she was being somewhat wrong-minded in this regard, I was accused of being a narcissist who thinks she is a genius and therefore doesn't have to live like other people. I have to admit that I was a bit hurt by some of the things she said until I arrived at work on Monday morning and my 6 year old student who is stuck in a bad foster care situation ran up and gave me a hug. I am a slacker, but at least to the extent that I do employ myself, I am not spinning my gears for some white shoe big city law firm.
Laura Ingalls wrote:Some people are so afraid of feeling poor that it keeps them broke. Those of us her don’t care. That’s why you are collectively my people :geek: :mrgreen:
Yeah, at the moment I feel like I am down to you guys, a few Bohemian elder hold-outs I know who are slowly inhabiting a subsidized senior center, and maybe the guy I met at the flea market who makes fish nets out of Linden bark.

suomalainen
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by suomalainen »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:55 am
IOW, developing the cognitive ability to abstract beyond one's own perspective (understand that if a ball is half green and half blue, other may be seeing blue while you see green) allows one to develop the social/moral ability to see others as not being just NPCs… I do not believe for a minute that you actually view other humans as NPCs.
The former and the latter are not mutually exclusive. Just because you all are NPCs in the universe of my life doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with you or that I lack theory of mind. It just means that some of us don’t realize we’re nobodies until we’re in our 50s, and the change can be shocking. I learned this already in high school where I was a nobody and I saw the popular kids thinking the high school universe revolved around them. One in particular reached out to me over linked in a few months ago. To the extent we judge each other as successes or failures based on our career paths (as is our wont in my upper-middle class high school), he’s a “cfo” at a small personal injury law firm. The universe, it appears, did not revolve around his balding head. I’ve seen a similar thing happen in my companies where an executive has a meteoric rise only to be let go. We can’t all be ceo / Harry Potter / President / The Chosen One.

We are all but NPCs in the universe. It’s just that we tend to put too much emphasis on the *I* of “I think therefore I am.” While my universe revolves around me; your universe revolves around you. Such is life for experiencing beings with no (direct) access to another’s experience.

ETA: also, I think your analysis (of me, anyways) might be backwards. I developed my feminine caring pretty early (overbearing infant-father) and my masculine energy was pretty retarded. The "me-justice" perhaps was built during my "unfair" marriage that culminated in my divorce. During the same period, I was growing much more confident in myself at work, and being assertive is quite easy for me now, whereas I was quite timid at the start of my career through my late 30s.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

suo wrote:I think your analysis (of me, anyways) might be backwards. I developed my feminine caring pretty early (overbearing infant-father) and my masculine energy was pretty retarded.
Yes, I think Gilligan's model is a bit basic. We need to engage in self-care in order to have the energy to construct strong self-aware boundaries, but we also need strong self-aware boundaries in order to engage in self-care. When I was growing out of my "unfair" marriage, I realized that my neglect of feminine self-care was inhibiting my ability to garner the masculine energy necessary to make a break. Or in simpler more concrete terms, to the extent that I allowed my exes' critical comments to hurt my feelings, and to the extent that I allowed my hurt feelings to inhibit my own pro-active behavior, I was keeping myself stuck.
It just means that some of us don’t realize we’re nobodies until we’re in our 50s, and the change can be shocking.
Hmmm...I think my perspective on my narrative has been towards the tragi-comic since early adolescence. Like, if I read that one of my former peers or frenemies was now CEO of ABC or a janitor at XYZ, I might feel a bit of envy or schadenfreude, but mostly I'd be thinking that a novel that only describes somebody as "CEO of ABC" is pretty schlock. I want me some K-Mart realism, some stream of consciousness, and a peek behind the Wizard's curtain. I want the more than predictable that reflects the complex reality of the human experience. I want to feel interested, amused, and empathetic. I want to learn something from your story.

Of course, curiousity also has it's limits and it's downside, but still might out endure competition as motivating force in social relationships. For example, I might feel curious about why my female peer was behaving in a manner that indicated a degree of anger and competition within a relationship that I had mostly perceived as loving and collaborative. I mean, by almost every conventional measure of our society centered at Modern, I would be currently perceived as a "loser." So, why the resentment from somebody much more likely to be perceived as a "winner?"

I also might be curious about my own reactions. I know that anytime somebody manages to push my buttons that is a signal of an opportunity for growth. It's just that beyond whatever Level Green tendency towards posturing myself as a victim I might retain, the reality is that I am currently suffering from an actual fairly debilitating chronic disease, and I am just not up, do not have enough spoons in my physiological drawer, to deal with the drama.

Wilber's "Boomeritis" is offering some insight. Also some humor. For example, "That's because you keep trying to think like a fucker instead of a fuckee." It's kind of interesting and amusing (to me) that I first encountered Integral Theory (over 20 years ago) without being aware that I was encountering Integral Theory when a younger guy from California introduced me to sexual dichotomy theory in my marriage therapy book group.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by AxelHeyst »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:34 am
I mean, by almost every conventional measure of our society centered at Modern, I would be currently perceived as a "loser." So, why the resentment from somebody much more likely to be perceived as a "winner?"
Because you fail to demonstrate cognitive/emotional obeisance to society's label of you as a loser, thus threatening the coherence of the whole sense-making edifice to those around you? The notion that you aren't acting like you believe yourself to be a loser when you 'so clearly' *are* a loser is dangerous and scary to those who may be in the process of desperately doing everything they can to ignore or explain away the widening cracks forming in their own understanding of their place in the world. Your cheerful winner attitude conflicts with their model of what you are (loser) and threatens to rend the delicate veil of their sanity.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@AxelHeyst:

Yes, I think that may be a good part of it. However, I wouldn't exactly describe myself as projecting a "cheerful winner attitude" lately. I think it's more that even the ways in which I perceive of myself as a loser are different/eccentric. As in, "What a loser I am for making zero-percent progress on my solar garden robot project." There was also a hint of a complete regression to adolescent behavior akin to "mean girl*" wanting to cut the loser from her clique, but also a bit of classic "Mom blaming**", because to the extent to which our relationship has not been peer, I have been more in the maternal role. Like when my DD33 could not bear to be seen being dropped off at high school in my total loser car. She literally communicated that I was cutting my emotional availability to her by not agreeing to chip in on expensive shared social outings in the future. I was like, "You could just call me on the telephone..."

*For some reason, "mean girl" behavior by other females has never much gotten to me. My need to "belong" to a female clique has always been minimal.

**OTOH, "mom blaming" behavior does get to me sometimes. My need to be seen as "a good person' is more core. That's why i felt better when I got a hug from one of the kids I help.

Jin+Guice
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by Jin+Guice »

This has been happening in my friend group too, although I started noticing it when my friends hit 30. I think it's the danger of not finding a strong enough "freeom-to" or finding a "freedom-to" that expires at a certain age. These people lack a north star and the dominant cultural paradigm we've built is a really appealing north star. Choosing an alternative life usually does create a lot of friction in people's lives and there are real economic, social and cultural prices that are paid. If you lose faith in your reason not to be alternative anymore, the dominant paradigm becomes very attractive.

I think a lot of people who choose alternative lifestyles do so out of frustration with the current system. Those outsider systems have their own level-orange rewards though, it's just learning the rules of a different game.

I keep typing and deleting sentences... the gist of it is ERE is really fucking deeply subversive.

Like we have this whole system of financial, emotional, social and cultural rewards and ERE is just like "don't do that." It's a great freedom-to because it shows the systematic flaws in the dominant cultural paradigm and then replaces them with a paradigm that, done at its best, meets needs better than the dominant paradigm and can function *almost* invisibly within it.



As far as wealthy people complaining about systematic oppression holding them down, I've found that at every level of wealth I've encountered. The one you're describing, which is the one I'm familiar with because it's the one I encounter, is the U.S.A. liberal myth. We really value "earning" what you have, but also being in constant struggle to earn more and being held down by some invisible oppressor. I just tune out and lose some respect for people when the conversation veers into that territory.

Frita
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by Frita »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:30 am
As far as wealthy people complaining about systematic oppression holding them down, I've found that at every level of wealth I've encountered. The one you're describing, which is the one I'm familiar with because it's the one I encounter, is the U.S.A. liberal myth. We really value "earning" what you have, but also being in constant struggle to earn more and being held down by some invisible oppressor. I just tune out and lose some respect for people when the conversation veers into that territory.
It seems like people are hardwired to battle something and not be content with the status quo (just treading water). Leveling down is probably easier as it frees up some climbing space (external motivation without getting stuck again for awhile). If it were just food, I ‘d call it to-yo dieting.

Written in Starbucks with my trusty waterbottle: air con and wifi break

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jin+Guice wrote:the gist of it is ERE is really fucking deeply subversive.
This. I went back and read some Hanzi and two phrases that struck me describing the MetaModern/Level Yellow stance were "pragmatic idealism" and ""to be both extremely idealistic and extremely Machiavellian." Level Green is too "sensitive" in its idealism to be well able to tolerate either the "pragmatic' or "Machiavellian" edge of an overly talkative early Yellow like me. Since, I am more core feminine in my dual spiritual nature, super-early integrating some Level Turquoise holistic universal love vibe will likely best serve. I am going to give the meanie-Greenie a gift of my very expensive copy of "A Pattern Language", because she was excited about some of the concepts I shared from that model.
Frita wrote: Leveling down is probably easier as it frees up some climbing space
Yes, I have myself given this some consideration given my current poor state of health, but I just can't do it.

xmj
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:26 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by xmj »

xmj wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:35 am
Two things to mention:

1) Well-off folks really do not want to listen to financial advice from perceived broke people

It's like listening to relationship advice from monks, just doesn't work

2) Compound interest

You mention people in their 40s/50s. Three things happen here: 1) inheritances, 2) kids start leaving the house (and, the budget) 3) Anyone who has put two three decades of work into their career will be at some relative peak.
To add: there is also the notion that
@meaning_enjoyer wrote: the conclusion i've come to is that if you simply repress your desire for status, money, sex and power in the interest of some more noble sounding moral code, you never get past them. you have to pursue them (honorably) until you've reached satisficing levels , burn out, move on
-- nihilism disrespecter on x.com

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@xmj:
if you simply repress your desire for status, money, sex and power in the interest of some more noble sounding moral code, you never get past them. you have to pursue them (honorably) until you've reached satisficing levels , burn out, move on
Yes, but there are a few other things going on. One thing would be that the concept of "satisficing" itself undergoes revision at each level. For example, as one emerges from Orange towards Green, it becomes much more relative and contextual. Level Orange is the first level in which perspective becomes world-centric rather than somewhat "tribal", so, for example, "The Guiness Book of World Records" is a very Level Orange creation. Since Level Green achieves a higher cognitive perspective than Level Orange while pulling back up a bit on the moral/emotional of other more Cool/Feminine color levels, some degree of only caring about status within your "in group" is revived, but within the cognitive self-authoring ability to make it an "in-group" of your own choosing or creation as opposed to the group you were born into. At Level Yellow, one becomes more pragmatic/systems-oriented/Machiavellian.

For overly simplistic example, easy way for me to achieve the sexual status of "prettiest girl in the room" is to date a man/men who are 10 or more years older than me, but once I've done this a time or three, I also care a lot less about the fact that I may not be regarded as "the prettiest girl in the room" when dating an age peer. It just seems like the natural order of things, and I am also better able to appreciate the fact that there are different mutual benefits to a peer relationship. I may also realize that since humans are highly impressionable, behavior of status can often trump reality of status. For example, dominant behavior will often trump actual muscles or money in signaling masculine status. So, once you learn how to exude dominant behavior, that form of status is just something you "have" in your pocket which you can choose to exude or not. Money, muscles, and sex, obviously, provide simple value, but to the extent they are being pursued for "validation" needs, they can/will be trancended at higher level. I believe that morality follows on cognition which follows on behavior which follows on emotion in cycle of growth or decline.

Another thing that complicates the model is that some humans (mostly female) tend to hop along the cool/feminine colors on the spiral, partially skipping the war/masculine colors, and other humans tend to do the opposite. So, up to a point individual development may stay roughly in alignment with sex/gender prior to back-tracking to pick up functionality beyond your core spiritual sexual identification. It is also believed that humans who are more core feminine are more likely to "transcend and include" at each turn on the spiral, whereas those with more core masculine energy are more likely to "transcend and exclude" at each turn on the spiral.

I sometimes wonder if I skipped Level Orange, because I have not accumulated very much money, but my current theory is that I must have processed it by starting and running my own business for a number of years, because my current level of desire to "go back in business and make a million dollars this time" is approximate to my level of desire to "go back to high school and get all As this time." Beyond the fact that my health is currently crap, I am currently stuck between kind of wanting to buy/dominate another permaculture project of my own VS. thinking it would actually be higher level functioning to do permaculture on a community level without owning the project myself. And relationship wise I am kind of stuck between solo-polyamory-in-which-I-am-a-hub and transcendent sexual union (which may require a form of monogamy that is not conventional marriage.)

zbigi
Posts: 1059
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by zbigi »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:26 am
For example, dominant behavior will often trump actual muscles or money in signaling masculine status. So, once you learn how to exude dominant behavior, that form of status is just something you "have" in your pocket which you can choose to exude or not.
Who is this hypothetical man dominating? Is it just woman (that wishes to be dominated and is turned on by it), or is it also other people who the guy stomps into the ground in a display of dominance? In other words, is psychopathic male behaviour sexy?

xmj
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:26 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by xmj »

I don't much care whether you've skipped making money for one reason or another, but you did, and it is now causing you friction (as per your OP) as your peer group finds itself with more spending power available.
@meaning_enjoyer wrote: the conclusion i've come to is that if you simply repress your desire for status, money, sex and power in the interest of some more noble sounding moral code, you never get past them. you have to pursue them (honorably) until you've reached satisficing levels , burn out, move on
So then let me point out that the obvious conclusion to
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2024 7:26 am
For overly simplistic example, easy way for me to achieve the sexual status of "prettiest girl in the room" is to date a man/men who are 10 or more years older than me, but once I've done this a time or three, I also care a lot less about the fact that I may not be regarded as "the prettiest girl in the room" when dating an age peer. It just seems like the natural order of things, and I am also better able to appreciate the fact that there are different mutual benefits to a peer relationship.
and
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:31 am
So, I am also suddenly having the same sorts of problems with keeping up with the spending level of my social circle that many others here experienced at an earlier age. I would like to see this change as foreshadowing a move from center at Level Green to center at Level Yellow, but it's not vibing that way for me. It seems much more akin to Rule-Abiding Member of Community at Level Blue reverting to Reactionary Violence at Level Red. Much more like, "I put in my time defending death row inmates, teaching poor kids, editing literary magazine, playing in punk rock bands, being a queer/trans advocate, doing organic gardening, being a breast-feeding neo-hippie Mom, and now it's my turn to get me some $$$ and live large on charcuterie board and spa vacations."
is to find new friends which are poorer, aren't as materialist, or have already transcended it. Think of the former of the "ten year older girl", and the latter as "reached satisficing levels & moved on."

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Who is this hypothetical man dominating? Is it just woman (that wishes to be dominated and is turned on by it), or is it also other people who the guy stomps into the ground in a display of dominance? In other words, is psychopathic male behaviour sexy?
Yeah, it was idiotic of me to make use of the term "dominance", because it is so loaded. How about we sub in "confident behavior manifesting agency over context/domain." The concept of hierarchy is revitalized at Level Yellow, but not the Dominator Hierarchies of previous levels. At Level Yellow, the existence of natural or developmental or "enveloping" hierarchies are once again accepted. There is no sense in which the masculine energy envelopes the feminine energy. OTOH, do some solid contingent of females sometimes like to have sex with a guy who is strong/skilled enough to half drop us off the side of the bed and then quick pick us up again? Yup.

I was reading "Stone Soup" with the second-graders today, and it is something like the behavior of the "trickster" Monks who encourage the villagers to share what they have towards greater abundance, that first emerges at Level Yellow. For example, if I am strong in my feminine energy, I don't need a man to come right out of the box exhibiting attractive behavior in his masculine energy. I can be patient, thoughtful, and/or display the "attractive vacuum" of self-aware feminine energy behavior myself. IOW, I can "magically" make him more attractive to me with some Level Yellow/Turquoise voodoo of my own. Just like how the "trickster" Monks can "magically" make soup out of nothing but stones and water. My male friend who first introduced me to sexual dichotomy theory took me to task on an occasion when I mopily said something like, "I wish my husband would just man up." by responding, "Why don't you take personal responsibility and girl up, instead?", and that was one of the best pieces of advice/constructive criticism I have ever received.
xmj wrote: find new friends which are poorer, aren't as materialist, or have already transcended it. Think of the former of the "ten year older girl", and the latter as "reached satisficing levels & moved on."
Yes, but that's just the more basic pragmatic engagement of "arbitrage." As I mentioned above, empathy-directed behavior is more key. For example, in romantic context exhibiting "charming" behavior will have the effect of taking a number of years off of your age, whereas exhibiting Lady Macbeth-like bitchy behavior will have the effect of adding a number of years to your age. So, there must be an analogue for a situation such as I described in OP. I mean, it obvious that I already don't give a rats azz for being validated as the richest human in the room, which is one reason why one might want to hang out with relatively poorer humans. Clearly, a good part of her annoyance was due to the fact that I am behaving like somebody who has status, when I don't in her book, UNLESS (in her mind) I am clinging to the fact that my SAT scores were higher than hers, like a "narcissist who thinks she is a genius, and doesn't have to do what other people do."

The best I can come up with is that if I want to successfully hang out/reduce friction, I need to figure out how to "show not tell" the behaviors associated with something akin to expanded "access" and "options" without having to actually have or spend a ton of money or burn excess CO2. However, I doubt that I am motivated enough to make the effort. Very few behaviors will burn through a lifetime of social capital accumulated with me more than yelling insults at me in a public setting like you are some kind of high-rent-style Adderall meth-head. I'll just go hang out with the ladies on the cookie-walk committee over at the rural Senior center and the girls at the romance reader book and knitting club, and the sexually-indeterminate humans at the chess club and bird-watching society, etc, etc, etc.

ETA: Reflecting upon what I just wrote off the cuff, it is clear that whatever their level of financial affluence or cultural capital, I greatly prefer the company of gentle-people, with the exception of one male partner who exhibits some not-entirely-gentle behavior in bed. What I wish I had said when she behaved in that manner was something along the lines of "You are not a Level Red Mountain Dwelling Subsistence Farmer, and I am not your dog. You will not raise your voice to me in such a manner again, if you hope to remain in my good graces or enjoy my company in the future."

IlliniDave
Posts: 3913
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:31 am

I recently realized that something odd (to me) is going on in my social circle, and I am wondering if others have shared my experience....
We're similar in age but otherwise not so much, lol.

At different points in life when I'd initially conclude that people around me had changed, or situations for that matter, most often I'd discover in time that is was more how I'd changed that affected the dynamic (my perception of it, that is), rather than people and circumstances around me.

All the jargon and citations are lost on me, but it seems like movement on the frugal-spendthrift axis and companion values/behaviors is the crux of it. I've not really been immersed in a longstanding social circle where I've had a feeling that I was unable to keep up with a spending level or whatever. That was always a choice for me, even when it felt like it wasn't.

I did notice a rattling of social connections when I left the workforce, but it was fairly minor and somewhat predictable. A subset of people I interacted with regularly were people with whom the only common ground I shared was work related. That didn't trigger any negative reaction in me or them, we just had things we had to do that led us down different forks in the road. The colleagues I had that I consider friends still are, but they are largely either already retired or nearing it, so differences in life stages are either temporary or recently ameliorated.

One thing that I know has changed about me over the lest 10-15 years is I've become wary of ideology in any form. To pick on frugality since it was mentioned, I see frugality as an excellent tactic. It could even be a passable strategy. But as an ideology I find it problematic and doubly so when it begins to intrude on interpersonal relationships. In that role it can easily become every bit as divisive as politics and religion. I don't know what other potential ideologies could be present in the color map view of people that could put fences between people. And I totally get it, I was both frugal and a crossfitter, lol. There's a huge flush of enthusiasm that comes with finding a means that helps you pursue the ends you desire, or reach a useful understanding. I've not mastered it yet but I'm learning to temper that a little. I have to recognize that there's a fine line between exuberance and preachiness in communication, and I can't expect the people I'm interacting with to bear the burden of figuring out how to understand me. At the same time as a listener I try to temper my short-term reactions. Seems to help me maintain a somewhat wider social circle (relatively speaking, mine is actually rather small and always been that way) without really noticing that I and others in it are changing.

There's no doubt that entering my seventh decade makes me more immediately aware that my road forward is rather short. That has and does inform and influence my relationship with money and materialism. I haven't changed on that spectrum all that much in an absolute sense, but while I frequently contemplate what's the point of it all, and what do I want to make the rest of my time like, I've rearranged financial habits and lifestyle choices in a way I hope will optimize it. I don't see it as good or bad, or progressing or regressing. Just adaptation.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave:

I generally have the opposite of the problem of not being able to hangout with humans with differing ideologies. For example, I shared fried pickles and had sex on voting day with somebody who chose Trump vs. my vote for Green party. I was even able to appreciate the fact that he brought a little more testosterone than usual to the encounter because "his guy" won :lol: Even in high school, I had friends who were cheerleaders, burn-outs, preppy, nerdy, drama/emo, or cute 22 year old guy who drove a potato chip truck. My personality type, the eNTP, or 7 Enthusiast on the cusp of 6 Traditionalist is also known as the Con-Artist, because we are often so chameleon-like in our social behavior.

My strongest political belief is my opposition to censorship, and I detest the notion that I might find myself in an echo chamber or even read myself into a corner. It sparks integrative card catalogue joy in my heart when I ferret out a valid opposing/expanding view to one I am currently holding. If I could find a decent sized hole in the argument or equation that approximately $12,000/year PPP per capita is the maximum we humans currently on the planet can equally spend/burn without fairly severe natural consequence, I would run with it. In fact, I would note for the record that I did take issue with Jacob's calculation of less than $8000, because it didn't take into account global PPP vs. U.S. PPP. However, this is not to imply that I am in any way suffering under the delusion that a world of such sustainable equity is likely to come into being. Humans are gonna human.

I would also note for the mea culpa record that I myself do not currently spend less than $12,000/year not even taking into account my very expensive medical treatments currently covered by insurance. This is a fine fucking predicament we all find ourselves in or may wobble back into, like Dick Proenneke coming out of the woods to die in modernity. It is also not the case that I initially adopted frugality with intention of doing my moral best to reduce resource burn. I just wanted the freedom to stay home with my babies, indulge my sluttish level of book consumption, and putter about in a garden. So, a perfectly valid observation that could be made about my flavor of somewhat anti-social frugal behavior would be that I might choose the company of a library book over chipping in $50 for dinner to hang out with a more spendy human.

Anyways, I hereby officially give up on making even the most gentle attempt to pierce through any other human's veil of denial, distraction or weak mathematical-scientific training. I'll just sit my chubby old butt down in my ratty second hand lawnchair with my pile of library books and my bag of dollar store candy and watch the slow motion train wreck unfold, only very occasionally mumbling quietly to myself, " Quo Vadis?"

Frita
Posts: 1004
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by Frita »

@ID Beyond only having work in common, I notice many people have a work persona. The person (or persona, if more layered) beneath the mask and I don’t mesh.

@7W5 Yeah, agreed, preferring variety in social interactions is an ENTP trait. I like diverse people and ran with a range of groups in school. The thing I notice is that some people struggle to accept me as I am, though they like my acceptance of them (i.e., They need external validation but view differentiation as rejection.). Also, people also tend to confuse my openness of their experience for being a caretaker and welcoming manipulation. I am s-l-o-w-l-y becoming less tolerant of these push-pull dynamic creators and walking away faster.
Is your lawn chair one of those with colorful webbing, aluminum armrests, and foldable?

Jin+Guice
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by Jin+Guice »

I think the way to defeat this is to figure out what need this is meeting for people you want to continue to engage with and what need your relationship with them meets for you and then creatively figure out how you could keep seeing them without spending a bunch of money on something you don't value (one of your needs).

Bright Eyes wrote: If you swear that there's no truth and who cares, how come you say it like you're right?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9665
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Frita wrote:Is your lawn chair one of those with colorful webbing, aluminum armrests, and foldable?
I wish it was that cool.
Jin+Guice wrote:I think the way to defeat this is to figure out what need this is meeting for people you want to continue to engage with and what need your relationship with them meets for you and then creatively figure out how you could keep seeing them without spending a bunch of money on something you don't value (one of your needs).
Well, the sad truth is that I generalized, simplified, digested and semi-anonymized the situation in my original post. I wish what happened (is happening) was just a clash of ideologies with a workaholic-spendaholic friend I could readily cut from my circle. It has now become very clear that what is going on is that yet another member of my immediate family* has been stricken with severe mental illness. Her husband, who is a high-functioning INTJ epidemiologist-at-major-university kicked her to the curb, because "he no longer wants to be her punching bag" and now my decrepit-mentally-ill-mother with whom she was staying has also kicked her to the curb due to her displays of verbal viciousness. After the weird event on which I based my original post, she also independently went off on my other two sisters, after gaslighting me that they shared her views on my cheap-skate behavior, etc. The weirdest thing is that, as I wrote about in my journal, she oddly, and spontaneously purchased a mini-wardrobe from Walmart for me, saying that she wanted to perk me up, but "hoped she wasn't acting like our bi-polar spendaholic mother" and because she described her own odd behavior in such a "meta" fashion, it took me longer than it should have to realize that she actually is exhibiting all the symptoms of a major manic event.

*My mother, my paternal grandmother, my second sister, my son, my youngest nephew, and now my youngest sister. Bi-polar disease in one family tree combined with tendency towards mild schizophrenia/major depression in your other family tree is a serious bitch my friends. And when I describe these members of my family as suffering from serious mental illness, that means that I consider my third sister's post-partum depression/anxiety that was so crippling I had to care for her first-born child for his first year of life as minor. Oh, and let's not forget my severely dysthymic first husband who later attempted suicide, my human steamroller of a second husband who also had a bi-polar mother, and my seemingly sweet BF with bi-polar disease who stopped taking his meds when he fell in love with me and went into a full psychotic loss-of-self state as he was having sex with me. (Yes, I realize that my romantic relationships have been a matter of choice. My DD33 thinks that it is the combination of my easy-going, open, oblivious personality type and my early exposure to chaos that causes me to never see it coming.)

I love my family, and also very much like them, because they are all extremely bright,creative, interesting, fun, loving people on a good day. But I simply can't take care of any more people with severe mental illness. I am not feeling mentally, emotionally, or financially/practical-matters fragile myself, but I am still physiologically way below par due to Crohn's disease and drug/treatment side effects. I am afraid she is going to ask if she can stay with me, and I am going to wimp out and say "Yes." Luckily, her performance on the job has not suffered due to intense hyper-focus and she has plenty of money, so not like she will end up on the street, unless the disease progresses and become worse. I would estimate that she's at an extremely rage-exhibiting level two mania at the moment. I did confront her about maybe getting off the Adderall, but because she is oddly obsessing about power and money, she argued as though the fact that she is spending a lot of money for top drawer NYC psychiatric care is proof that the care she is receiving is appropriate. What sort of marginallyh competent psychiatrist puts somebody with family history of bi-polar disease on Adderall and Prozac simultaneously? Aaaaaaaaaaargh...!

Anyways, never mind about this being a problem applicable to anybody else attempting extreme frugality or gently outlining the science/math related to global climate change in social situation. It could have been the color of my shoes she went off on. Although, it also is the case that humans in a manic state can kind of act as canaries in coal mine with bright lights on tiny helmets. IOW, they HUGELY exaggerate, but aren't necessarily entirely wrong.


ETA: It's pretty clear that my top three coping mechanisms are 1) Classic Ostrich Head in Sand, 2) Sunshine Optimist Whitewashing, 3) Make it All Theoretical Detachment.

ETA: This event is also making me feel like I am living in the sort of novel in which you don't know which character is the reliable narrator. A few days prior to the first weird melt-down event, my currently-cuckoo youngest sister actually noted to me, "It's important to have a therapist who is as intelligent as you, because otherwise you can easily gaslight them." as she was obviously-in-retrospect engaged in the process of gaslighting her therapist. My mother has never been a very reliable narrator due to bi-polar disease and now she is also becoming geriatric forgetful, and has called me with the same update about my sister's behavior three times. And my mostly recovered from her severe mental illness second sister (who is the only other human frequently directly interacting with both my mother and my currently severely cuckoo-bananas youngest sister) still suffers from a 5% edge of paranoia, along the lines of truly fearing somebody might steal her mangy dog for political reasons.

blink2ce
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:28 pm

Re: Reversion to Level Orange

Post by blink2ce »

@7wb5 That is quite a lot of crazy in a small circle! I think that craziness is a little contagious. Even if you don't catch it yourself, you still need to spend energy cleansing yourself of the crazy in some manner. Hopefully you can get some space for a while.

Post Reply