Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

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Sclass
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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Sclass »

This reminds me of something I found in my dad’s home office last week. My dad copied my brother’s diary and had it in a Manila envelope with a bunch of love letters dug out of the trash and reconstructed with scotch tape.

My (then 20 yo) brother broke down seduction into a bunch of rules and steps like an engineer. In fact the diary was written down in a lab book he got at the campus bookstore. Step 1 do this, step 2 do that, then step 3 say this. He pulled from men we knew and the seduction techniques of Richard Feynman (bro was at Caltech in the 80s). Funny part is it did work. He had a high body count. But it was this rotating door of the same kind of gal over and over. They all had serious relationship issues. Go figure they were horny for a robot. :lol: I think their filter had to be lax enough to let him in and his techniques were crude enough to repel any of the interesting ones. My parents got fed up and arranged a marriage for him in his 40s. That put an end to his 20 year merry go round of loser girlfriends.

I got the idea he was following the same recipe based on the same universal understanding of how women ticked and it got him the same result. It was a repeatable experiment. He got laid. By the same gal in a different body. The relationships all had similar problems and ended exactly the same way. Then he’d rinse and repeat. Madness. He never saw the big picture because his system “worked” at getting him laid! :lol:

I’m not terribly experienced in these things. I kind of treat it like dynamic response and feedback which I am familiar with. For me each instance is an unknown feedback system where I have to turn the gain way down if I have any hope at stability. The rules or physics depends a lot on what is in the system. And, the plant(process accumulator) dynamics can vary widely. If you don’t know what response you’ll get it’s good to start with a very low amplitude impulse and heavily process the response before making adjustments to system coefficients. This will deal with a good number of systems unlike hard physical laws which tend to throw dynamic systems off the rails. I think the convolutional neural nets of late approach reality this way using a lot of real downstream data to train the upstream processing filter thus resulting in a system that works as a single unit. The analogy to human relationships is strong because AI people are trying to emulate biology with circuitry.

When I look at my brother and dad’s design of experiments they only use feed forward schemes. Dad never could understand why feedback resulted in high accuracy and linearity across a broad variety of plants. His ideas were locked in precision feed forward designs that could only handle specific system dynamics. When things didn’t work they just swapped in another plant till they got the desired result. Which was inevitably the same plant.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@SClass:

I agree with much of what you are communicating, but a couple further observations:
I think their filter had to be lax enough to let him in and his techniques were crude enough to repel any of the interesting ones.
What if you had another brother and his strategy was "I'm not going to chase girls for casual sex. I will let them find me in my basement laboratory and then I will filter them according to my strict requirements for a one-night stand partner." My point here being that at least your robot-rascal brother's strategy had some grasp on the reality that because female strategy is generally more towards filtering for commitment, some effort would be required on his part. According to Bus's research, humans of both genders employ different strategies when they are seeking casual vs. committed partners. IOW, if your rascal-robot brother and his female partners were striving for long-term committed relationships with the techniques and filters they were employing then it was the case that they weren't seeing the big picture. However, if they were looking for short-term then they were successful.

When I was first attempting online dating after my divorce, one thing that confused me was that I found myself being quickly hustled into relationships with men as opposed to quickly hustled into bed. On at least two occasions, I literally had a man tell me that he was delaying initiating sex with me because he was interested in a more serious relationship. So, because my filter was only set to select for "attractive to me" and default feminine screen of "signaling willingness to commit", I had difficulty realizing that I was still being efficiently hustled. IOW, I had to learn that an offer of next-step monogamy (Will you be my girlfriend?) from a man was cheap on the middle-aged humans internet dating market, and that I was always going to find myself in relationships with men who had the most "efficient hustler*" personality types if I didn't further adjust my filter for this context. Several years later this was confirmed for me when I read an Okay Cupid study that revealed that the average reasonably attractive female is only live on a dating site for a few weeks before finding her next partner.

*I think this is also why I frequently found myself dating men who were much more affluent than me. Men who can "efficiently hustle" a girlfriend off of the more-difficult-for-men internet dating market are usually also good at making money. They are also usually very good at driving me crazy in long-term relationship.

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Sclass
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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Sclass »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:05 am
@SClass:
However, if they were looking for short-term then they were successful.

…When I was first attempting online dating after my divorce, one thing that confused me was that I found myself being quickly hustled into relationships with men as opposed to quickly hustled into bed.
@7w

You bet. He was successful at that. I think I’m echoing my parents frustration. There were letters in the Manila envelope from my dad (he CCed himself) scolding my brother about not settling down and starting a family. My folks got kind of tired of meeting his girlfriends after twenty years of this.

Over the years I learned he left a disaster wake behind him. I’ve accidentally met and befriended some of his failed attempts. He had a lot. The reaction was always the same “Ewww Sclass you’re brothers?” The targets who saw through his script had strong memories. I found myself apologizing for him a lot. The failures were some pretty neat gals that I would have liked as my SIL.

Did the guys try to pick up on what you wanted or did they just hustle you on their agenda? I mean it would be telling if you signaled playtime and they countered with wedding locations. It likely had something to do with how they arrived there.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Almost Cat »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:30 am
As a wife of an (unforgivably attractive) ERE man who was in her early twenties when the depression started unfolding, I've seen where these attributes can get people, and I know very well that every dollar that went into someone looking like he has money is the money that person no longer has.

I also know that keeping up with his lifestyle would wreck my chances of financial stability, and not keeping up with his lifestyle would wreck our relationship.


I know plenty of women whose perspective align better with what you shared. They would never be happy with an ERE man.
I wouldn't be happy with someone who wasn't.


If the end goal is getting laid, buying some nice clothes and a good perfume, getting a haircut, and chatting up a lovely lady at a party for liked organisation's volunteers every now and then shouldn't be that much of a problem.
If the goal is meeting a potential long-term mate, some compatibility in fundamental aspects of worldview would probably be nice.
Last edited by Almost Cat on Tue Jun 18, 2024 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

SClass wrote:Did the guys try to pick up on what you wanted or did they just hustle you on their agenda? I mean it would be telling if you signaled playtime and they countered with wedding locations. It likely had something to do with how they arrived there.
It was actually kind of amusing in retrospect. I had just managed to extricate myself from a very long term marriage in which the primary problem from my perspective was that my husband very rarely initiated sex and very frequently turned me down when I initiated sex. So, I go out into the dating world at age 42 expecting it to be like the dating world when I was 22 , and it's not, so I end up sort of doubly befuddled. Part of the problem was "how they arrived there" or "where they were coming from." For instance, one of the men I dated was an extremely attractive 51 year old who had never been married, although he had raised his two sons as a single father, and he was dating with marriage in mind, because he believed it would offer proof of his maturity as a man. However, I had not yet learned this was his perspective/plan by the time we were on our third or fourth date, and he literally suggested that he wanted to see how I would look wearing nothing but his old football jersey and invited me over to his house for dinner, and then still made no moves on me! Although he also communicated that he would like to see me sleeping safe and secure in his bed, like some sort of stuffed animal dressed in his football jersey. Due to the fact that I accepted a couple glasses of wine with dinner and I am an extreme light-weight who rarely drinks, it may or may not be the case that I then proceeded to actually crawl up on his lap in an attempt to resolve my confusion. He was a super-controlled through athletic-training type of human who did 500 push-ups every day, so he literally picked me up, and said something like, "No, not yet." We hung out for a few more hours, he kissed me goodbye when he walked me to the car, and the kiss became quite heated, so then once again, he literally picked me up and sort of put me in my car.

A number of months later, I had an odd experience with him which I later also experienced with two other men, which leads me to believe this odd experience must be due to something odd about me. The odd experience was that while I was present, he spoke out loud to himself about the pros and cons of possibly marrying me. Like he was considering a project to which, I guess, I was only an accessory.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jean »

One of the best way to be attractive is to be happy. If ere allows you to be happier, it will make you more attractive.
If you attract a partner with something that you don't naturraly provide, you'll make yourself miserable trying to keep those partner.
Edit: I would add that we are very lucky to belong to a specie in which sexual competition is mostly a positive sum game.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jin+Guice »

ERE has significantly raised my attractiveness.

Dating/ mating/ partnership are all composites of multiple learnable skills.

As discussed in a lot of the skill threads, knowing who you are and what you want will help you identify which skills to focus on for your unique gifts and your personal goals.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Sclass »

@7W fascinating story. It’s fun to imagine what was going through his head. Perhaps he was trying to figure out what he wanted in real time.

@jean now that’s a truth. I remember transforming myself as a young man to maintain a relationship with “the love of my life” at the time. I went as far as changing my politics. I woke up one day and realized I’d have to keep this up forever. I had become so fake I couldn’t even recognize myself. I quit without explanation. It wasn’t my best moment but I think it saved both of us a lot of grief.

@Almost Cat I think it is really awesome to find a partner who gets on board with a variant of the ERE life style. The majority of females I know (IRL off this site) don’t like it. They get pretty vocal about it with me. So my advice to ERE single men is get yourself out there and see what this big world has to offer. There are gems out there but they’re rare. I’m lucky I found one. I kind of envision Ego and Mrs. Ego as rare matchup when I read his stories about their life together. There are many other examples of couples on this forum. We catch little glimpses when members post about their significant others. My advice to guys looking is kiss a lot of frogs.

The thought of having a rotating door flowing with ERE ready partners IRL may be limited by our numbers.

ETA - reminds me of sales.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:26 pm
Dating/ mating/ partnership are all composites of multiple learnable skills.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jin+Guice »

I meet women who are fine with ERE stuff all the time.

Maybe this should be my pitch for ERE city in New Orleans, haha.

I don't meet a lot of women who are attracted to an overt and loud declaration of frugality... but that's asking a lot considering the culture we are in. More importantly, frugality is not spending money. I don't usually advertise myself by talking about what I'm not doing.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Henry »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:46 am
Although he also communicated that he would like to see me sleeping safe and secure in his bed, like some sort of stuffed animal dressed in his football jersey.
I guess at that point you have to ask yourself if role playing as the Philly Phanatic is in your Overton window.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jin+Guice »

@Henry:

My culture is not your costume.



But seriously, I look great in a blinding neon green, so I'll add that to the list.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Almost Cat wrote: If the goal is meeting a potential long-term mate, some compatibility in fundamental aspects of worldview would probably be nice.

Yes, I agree. However, it has been my experience that there can even be differences in flavor of frugal that eventually become irreconcilable. Most fights about money within relationships are about how funds are allocated, so when you are thinking in terms of an even wider variety of capital stocks and flows, differences in desires for allocation may become even more pronounced. For example, if one spouse is more Freedom From and the other spouse is more Freedom To, or one spouse is highly power and security oriented towards Earning&Saving and the other spouse is more ecological resource conservation and creative skill development oriented towards Not Spending.

Meeting a semi-early fairlyfatFIRE man my age who has a couple million in assets and a pension and a house on a lake with a dock and a boat, but always uses his coupon at Harbor Freight is pretty easy compared to meeting a man my age who knows how to weave a fishnet out of Linden bark and is very well read in Archaeology. For some reason I'm much more interested in the second, even though I suspect he lives with his brother in a dilapidated farm house inherited from his parents.
SClass wrote: It’s fun to imagine what was going through his head. Perhaps he was trying to figure out what he wanted in real time.
Well, it was definitely the case that he was pretty goo-goo eyes for me, because as he communicated "Phat Jody Foster" was very much his cup of tea. So, what he was out loud verbalizing was more about whether I would meet his security and other needs:

Pro: Early Empty Nest, my youngest was about to head off to college.
Pro: I supported myself with my own flexible small business.
Con: (paraphrasing with subtextual interpretation) Although 7WB5 is the sort of easy-going, soft-hearted type who didn't even demand child support from her loser first husband when he went AWOL, she is also somewhat suspiciously extremely sexual in nature, therefore in the eventuality that we were to marry and then worst-case scenario divorce, although 7WB5 acting independently would be unlikely to sue me for my financial assets, it may be the case that some other much tougher individual, such as a sharklike divorce attorney, with whom she would become involved would convince her to do so.

Anyways, I just had sort of an "Ah ha!" moment based on having read the book I mentioned above, considering a couple other similar incidents in my past , and "hearing" what everybody is saying here about authenticity. I just realized that one of the reasons I don't want to get married again is that behaving in a manner likely to allay the security concerns of the median modern middle-aged man contemplating marriage is fake behavior for me. That's also one of the reasons why I think I am innately more polyamorous. I grok that oftentimes men sort of actually want to be caged in monogamous relationship, but it's a lot of work keeping somebody happy in captivity, and I don't want the job. I would rather have an assortment of old friends and new lovers, and more life energy available for variety of projects with no need for consultation or compromise with other.

However, as I and many other women have discovered, one of the problems with the practice of polyamory (or simply intentially choosing sexually active singlehood) is that if you don't make your male partners pay some price for access, they actually behave worse than if you do. It's like putting out a table at the curb with a sign that says "Free Tomatoes" encourages vandalism. So, you self-aware have to allow yourself to be "treated" by your lovers in order to not be "mistreated." And even though my top two love languages are Physical Touch and Acts of Service, it is actually kind of difficult to come up with a list of Acts of Service for your lovers to perform in exchange for sexual access. For example, two out of three of my poly-partners greatly preferred the option of taking me out to eat at a nice restaurant over helping me dig swales in the compacted earth of my first vacant lot permaculture project. Another example would be I asked one of them to help me fix my bike, and he chose to buy me a new (used) bike instead, etc. etc. etc.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by AxelHeyst »

Sclass wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:47 pm
@Almost Cat I think it is really awesome to find a partner who gets on board with a variant of the ERE life style. The majority of females I know (IRL off this site) don’t like it. They get pretty vocal about it with me. So my advice to ERE single men is get yourself out there and see what this big world has to offer. There are gems out there but they’re rare.
Adding to this: consider actions/systems that make it easy for the rare gems to find *you*. Run your freak flag up the highest pole you can find, creating attractors with filters, as you get out there in the world. These actions/systems *must* be highly homeotelic, e.g. "find ERE-adjacent hawties" can't be the zeroth order goal of these systems for reasons that've already been pointed out here.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jin+Guice »

Sclass wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 9:00 pm
My (then 20 yo) brother broke down seduction into a bunch of rules and steps like an engineer.

But like... what were the rules and steps?

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by jacob »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:55 pm
But like... what were the rules and steps?
1. Collect underpants.
2. ????
3. Profit!

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

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:lol: @j&g I erased it from my mind as I threw the diary in the recycle bin. I think you are playing on another level where you convince multiple women to climb into bed with you - simultaneously.

It was like the love coach Eaglebauer from Rock N’Roll high school by The Ramones. “Walk up to her, say these words “hi, how has the weather been lately?” And it was like Richard Feynman’s classic story.

https://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/ ... n-a-whore/

The diary sounded like a recipe book. A recipe book written by somebody who never ate before. Or a chem 1 lab manual that fails teach actual chemistry even after you dutifully follow the steps and write up the results. A painting by numbers. You get the idea. There is something comforting about a tested formula. And it worked getting my brother into bed with many women. A subset of what the world has to offer.

ETA - I couldn’t find a clip of Rock and Roll High but here is a transcript of Eaglebauer,
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079813/ch ... /nm0397212

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

One of the reasons why human mating patterns are very different than most other species, including some of those most closely related to ours, is that human females do not experience or signal estrus and do experience menopause. According to the author of "Dating Rocks: The 21 Smartest Moves Women Make for Love" (terrible title for reasonably interesting book), the usual functional dating/mating pattern for human females is Make Self Attractive/Signal Availability/Filter. There can be all sorts of less than functional ways to manage these three steps, but the most common "error" made by many women is that they simply don't or only infrequently "Signal Availability." IOW, they are passive to the extent of somehow hoping Prince Charming will find them when they spend most Saturday nights at home watching Netflix and eating pudding.

Unfortunately, according to Bus in "The Evolution of Desire" due to the huge visual element in human male strategy, human males very frequently, unconsiously, confound the visual sexual attractiveness of a female with signaling of availability. IOW, the sexier a woman looks, the more likely she is available for sex, is the reflexive calculation made. However, the reality is that the more attractive a female is, the more likely she is going to be extremely picky about her partners. So, a more rational approach that might be taken by a self-aware male would be to get a clear grip on what an average female in his cohort looks like on an average day, and then practice polite approach in appropriate setting that does not itself serve to signal availability.

An interesting related note would be that the "hook-up" culture currently found on most American college campuses is primarily due to the fact that the pool of women attending college is currently 17% larger than the pool of men, so the preferences of young men towards casual sex prevail. A seemingly small difference in male to female ratio in a region can actually ripple into a fairly huge difference in the availability of females for casual sex. For example, it is much easier to get laid in Manhattan than in much of the rural U.S.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Henry »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 7:05 am
One of the reasons why human mating patterns are very different than most other species, including some of those most closely related to ours, is that human females do not experience or signal estrus and do experience menopause.
Not to mention the discrepancy in the percentage of human females vs other species females having zero compunction in being railed outdoors.

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Jin+Guice »

@jacob: Finally, the master reveals his formula!
Sclass wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:33 pm
I think you are playing on another level where you convince multiple women to climb into bed with you - simultaneously.
I hear you, but having that happen sometimes is actually quite different than:
Sclass wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:33 pm
it worked getting my brother into bed with many women.
Which I am relatively bad at, unless we are defining "many women" differently?

Sclass wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:33 pm
The diary sounded like a recipe book. A recipe book written by somebody who never ate before. Or a chem 1 lab manual that fails teach actual chemistry even after you dutifully follow the steps and write up the results.
But it did work? Or was his desired result something different than fucking a bunch of people?

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Re: Is a men following the ERE Lifestyle More Attractive?

Post by Sclass »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 1:01 pm
But it did work? Or was his desired result something different than fucking a bunch of people?
Yeah it worked for that.

ETA - many women meant GFEs that went from four months to a year. He wasn’t racking up one night stands at bars. He said he liked to get the peak romance at about three months in before he started to plan his exit. His needs changed over twenty years. Eventually he wanted to marry but none of his friends were keepers. So mom and dad arranged a marriage and he begrudgingly kept her.

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