Frita’s Lost and Found

[Biscuits and Gravy]

Hugs, Frita. I’m sorry you’re going through this crucible. You deserve to be with someone who wants to be with you and who puts effort into themself and the relationship. Your husband sounds a lot like my dad, who retired-from early and has spent the last two decades in idle isolation, in spite of my and my sisters’ endless attempts to lead him to water (admit he is depressed) and make him drink (go to therapy). The newest chapter in that story is that, after decades of no self-care and no outside intervention, he lost a foot to uncontrolled diabetes and is now fighting to keep the other foot. My mother (who left him when I was a teenager) expressed guilt at not having stayed married to him in order to take care of him because she thought it was unfair for that burden to fall on my sisters and me, and I told her I was so, so glad she left my father, because she deserves to be happy and to live her own life without being weighed down by his bullshit.

Long way of saying, drop the rope. That doesn’t have to mean divorce. It just means giving yourself the freedom to accept that you are not responsible for him and his choices and that it’s okay for you to live the life that you want to live.

[Frita]

So Frita, how does this make you feel?

I feel confused, a secondary emotion compromising of sadness/anger/surprise/disgust with numerous thoughts condensed to, “After 30+ years you only now realize you’d prefer to be a permanent-bachelor?!”

[SouthernAlchemy]

Related to Jacob's comment above, over the last 12 or so years since my dad passed away, I have watched my mom really grow into herself as a person. I think she had a pretty conservative/traditional view of her role in marriage, yet, after a couple of years of grieving, has really opened up into a life focused on herself. It is not like her personality has changed, but she is able to express her personality more fully and seems to be sincerely enjoying her life. I don't know that this is particularly common for widow/ers after a lifelong marriage, so it is both interesting and inspiring to watch her live her life.

I am not suggesting that divorce is the answer here, but that marriage/partnership requires accommodation on the part of both people and that ultimately can lead to limiting oneself in some way(s). It is worth considering what limits the marriage creates and if the benefits of the marriage are worth the cost.

Thank you for sharing your story.

[Frita]

I have no real advice, just virtual hugs. The good thing about your situation is that with someone without much initiative (DH) you can try out ideas at relatively low risk.

Thanks, this reframe could work for me in the interim. He told me to use our place as a homebase while I figure out how to “go away and leave him alone.” It seems like the best option for now.

My long time pastor/coworker said that she approached premarital counseling in her first marriage as an exam she wanted to ace vs an opportunity to learn.

Oh, dear, that lense explains a lot of why my spouse gave the right answers. I was honest, trusting, and naive. “Passing” marriage counseling in my mind meant we were compatible and committed enough to make it work. There was fair warning that there would be challenges and that any time there was an issue, my spouse would want to use his family pattern of conflict/threatening divorce. In hindsight, I needed to take time to see how he actually dealt with conflict to verify his words matched his actions. Someone who had exactly the same values and dreams was too good to be true. The act disappeared by our wedding reception. Good grief.

DH are still trucking along without premarital counseling. Though we had an experiment with martial counseling that left us both conclusion it’s a flawed system and that individual counseling is usually more worthwhile.

Yep, if there are individual things to work out, marriage counseling does not work. I am curious how it seems flawed from an insider’s perspective.

Marriage counseling is counter indicated when there is abuse. I did just finish six months of intensive counseling to reprogram myself from sticking with this bad marriage. This is uncharted territory so I am being self-compassionate as I explore possibilities. Not sure if this is prerequisite to or acting taking action, not that it even matters.

[Henry]

I feel confused, a secondary emotion compromising of sadness/anger/surprise/disgust with numerous thoughts condensed to, “After 30+ years you only now realize you’d prefer to be a permanent-bachelor?!”

Maybe he's gay.

[7Wannabe5]

• Going to library and reading or listening to podcasts for a few hours.
• Shutting door to his bedroom/former guestroom and doing whatever.
• Attending basketball games alone.

Have you considered that he might be meeting, or attempting to meet, other people for sex? I may be completely off the wall here, but "going to basketball game alone" strikes me as exactly the sort of cover married men often use when they cheat. The internet has opened up a whole new world of options that didn't exist when you were married 30 years ago. If I were you, I would assume (without checking! checking behavior super dysfunctional! do not check!) that boundarying his own bedroom space suggests at a minimum that he is at least engaged in behavior at the level of buying tokens to present to a 19 year old Romanian girl who is willing to live dance in the sort of underwear he prefers.

Anyways, as I see it, you basically have three choices:

1) Attempt to resurrect your relationship as Traditional Marriage. This is completely possible, but the downside is that you will have to inhabit the role of Traditional Wife. I recommend Helen Andelin's "Fascinating Womanhood: How the Ideal Woman Awakens a Man's Deepest Love and Tenderness" if you choose to take this route. The rope you would have to drop here would be your errant individualistic tendencies.

2) Attempt to renegotiate/revitalize your Modern/Post-Modern marital contract. This requires accepting divorce as an option, because it simply is an option in the modern world, so you can't negotiate within an egalitarian partnership of fully differentiated/differentiating individuals without the option of divorce equally in play. Once again, I recommend "Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships" by David Schnarch as must-read text. The rope you would have to drop here would be your denial of your own and spouse's individualistic tendencies towards dysfunctional style maintenance of marriage (the slow slope of downward compromise to the soft center of the couch where you are beached together.)

3) Create your own hot mix relationship designation at Post-Modern/Meta-Modern. This requires both dropping the ropes and getting outside of the boxes. However, at this level you are free to bring forward whatever you choose from previous levels. For example, in ERE you can have AppliedCap, and in a Meta-Modern relationship you can have TradWife. The difference being that as you integrate High Green, it simply becomes one Lifestyle Kink among others, which you then may make use of to construct a resilient system at Level Yellow.

[Henry]

Earlier this week someone I know told me that his brother-in-law died when a car he was working on crushed him to death. Despite it happening at 11PM while he was drunk, the police called it a crime scene. Turns out, although still living together, he and his wife were estranged and living in separate bedrooms. So for a brief moment, the police suspected foul play. Being that you and your husband are living in similar circumstances, I just want to provide this anecdote as how these types of things can go completely sideways.

[J_]

@Frita , I wish you strength and wisdom to solve your tangled situation.

@Jacob, I think your thoughts about changes in retirement in one’s “not innate” personality traits are to the point and helpful.

I do recognise such a development by myself and by DW. Luckily we worked as a couple in our own company and slowly we could in agreement diminish our working roles and develop our lifestyles “being free to” in an harmonious way.

[7Wannabe5]

He told me to use our place as a homebase while I figure out how to “go away and leave him alone.”

Total bullshit. Why is he ruler over the home domain? Get a lawyer and kick his sorry ass to the curb. Maybe he doesn't care about marriage or you or kid, but you do have the advantage of knowing the one thing "my precious, my precious" he must care about if he's been planning to retire early since before you were even married. if you were the trailing spouse, you might even ask for significant alimony. It seems to me that incipient dementia might even be a possibility here, because he's so incredibly stupid to be making it so much more likely that you won't play nice by behaving like such an azz-turd.

Sister eNtP, time to turn off your sentimental leaning Fe-Si functions and activate your secondary Ti cold, ruthless, rational potential. Put the bunny (Fe) and the Deer (Si) safe in their cages, and release your (Ti) Snowy Owl talons out! Fuck, it might even be time to combine your Ne (the Monkey) and Ti (the Snowy Owl) super-powers and bring on the Flying Monkey of Feminine Chaos. Do something completely out of character. Stop always being the adult in the room. Order up some 37 year old stud on the internet and have him bring himself, a 6 pack, and a pizza over to your "home base" tomorrow night. Then take a picture of the look on your husband's face and post it here, because I am already laughing so very hard just imagining it.

[Frita]

… a thought experiment... what does it look like for you to leave? …is there a middle ground?

Yes, there are many middle points between stay and go, not just split-the-difference. I like the idea of combining a thought experiment with actually trying different things.

An adult partner is responsible for taking care of themselves physically to the best of their ability, too, and for considering how his failure to do so impacts others. The key here is that he is unwilling to get help. As you said, Frita, there's two commitments: one is for better or for worse, but the other is mutual effort.

Good points to keep in mind.

Dang, there’s no shortage crash-and-burn paths but also hope for change too.

There are so many ways for kids to lose. What I am doing to make things less difficult on our 19 year old:
-Encouraging him to still do things with his dad even if it’s just sitting and watching TV, without guilt for wanting a father-son relationship.
-Not discussing private issues when my son is around.
-Taking a physical break this summer to give myself some space.
-Accept that he wants to continue living at home and knows getting his own place is an option.
-Continue our mother-son relationship and follow his lead.
-Considering how our family relationship could continue even as the marriage shifts.
-Widening my own focus on myself: who I am, what I want, and what I need.

Thus, a standard DINKing couple actually have 5 significant relationships [with their jobs, each other’s job roles, and as a partnership], any of which can change the whole dynamic. It is also possible that they don't. However, this is something that I suspect couples don't talk enough about before making those big changes. How will it change me? How will it change you? How will it change us?

Interesting the parallel you draw between retirement and divorce with both being catalysts for self-discovery. So, retiring from is more avoidance of role-based demands that are not congruent with temperament. Retiring to is substituting temperament-aligned pursuits for roles that may or not continue to (or ever have fit).

How well one knows themself, can choose life-pursuits that match temperament and values, and can verbalize this determines how synced one becomes. With the 2x2 outcomes, it is possible to have a mismatch and convincingly assume the role. The irony is hating the performance while lacking substance under the costume while being accepted as being the mask. I think I have more compassion for how retirement affected my spouse, thanks for the framework.

Discussing how changes will affect each person and the couplehood assumes each person can self-reflect, see different perspectives, and follow through. Add outcomes/consequences and subsequent changes/actions for more complexity. Conversely, it seems that if solvable problems can been addressed and unsolvable issues can be accepted/accommodated, the situation becomes simpler and easier.

P.S. As an extrovert, the nursing home scenario sounds like hell for the same reason. The regimentation, superficiality, and despair aren’t for me.

@ertyu
I agree that dysfunction is bad home environment for kids. They need to be able to trust their parents to survive, yet are not mature enough to discern how crazy things are and not personalize it. The result is deep, conditioned learning that is hard to recognize and change.

[zbigi]

Order up some 37 year old stud on the internet and have him bring himself, a 6 pack, and a pizza over to your "home base" tomorrow night. Then take a picture of the look on your husband's face and post it here, because I am already laughing so very hard just imagining it.

1. The idea of "ordering men from Internet" is very objectifying towards men. I get that many women actually do treat men as disposable sex objects (no different how many men treat women), but let's not promote that.
2. Depending on the legal system, marital infidelity can make the divorce a very bad deal for the adulterer.

[7Wannabe5]

1. The idea of "ordering men from Internet" is very objectifying towards men. I get that many women actually do treat men as disposable sex objects (no different how many men treat women), but let's not promote that.

Hmmm...I do apologize if I offended the sensibilities of any of the more evolved men on this forum, but the reality of the internet dating/mating market is that there are waaaaay more men blatantly advertising their availability for "just sex" in a manner making it very clear that they are happy to be thoroughly objectified than there are females wanting to pick up these "freebies." I assigned zero percent probability to Frita taking me seriously in my over-the-top suggestion, but I was thinking about the time my extremely introverted middle-aged sister, who was still suffering some physiological esteem issues post-cancer treatment and not doing any kind of regular dating as a result, boldly "ordered up" a gorgeous guy in his 20s who looked like a Viking, and it really cheered her up. Also, I'm sure she offered him tea and sent a gracious bread and butter note afterwards thanking him for his service. When I sent a bread and butter note to the young man who similarly made himself available for a threesome with me and one of my poly-partners, I believe his reply was along the lines of "No problem." Followed up several months later by "Wanna do it again?" IOW, I was absolutely not suggesting that Frita take advantage of some young person whose internet profile reads along the lines of "Hopeless romantic seeking soul-mate. I've been hurt before, but putting myself out here one more time. NO PLAYERS!!! Please reply only if you long to share your heart story with someone who will always bring you flowers."

ETA: i don't want to derail Frita's journal, so let's continue conversation on Sexual Wheaton Table thread. I've actually been thinking about the topic of objectification recently and how it applied to some of my earliest sexual encounters.

[Sclass]

@Frita I’d say stay strong but it looks like you are doing just that. Good luck with things. Hugs.

Mental illness is a serious disease. Your husband sounds like he needs some help but it sounds like he isn’t reaching out. Maybe you’re accommodating him. It looks like a tough spot for you two.

I feel marriage kind of picked a lot of my friends and family that were compatible with my wife. Good and bad it was a bitter pill to swallow. I’m so happy with our life together that I’m okay with casting off my hooligan buddies.

Figure out what you want out of this thing and move slowly in that direction. You sound like a really strong and committed person. I think you just need to aim.

I just got home from a multi day cleaning fest at my parents place. My wife sat me down and made sure I was hydrated and rested up. Then she dropped the bomb. My friend committed suicide while I was away. Divorce gone bad. I wasn’t there to support him. I thought he was a big boy and could sort it all out on his own. I missed the signs though they were right there in front of me. Just saying this is powerful stuff. Mental illness is a big deal.

[suomalainen]

If he had ALS or MS, I’d still be here. Why the double standard for emotional conditions? There also was a mutual effort condition to be met that has not occurred.

I'm not sure if the question is rhetorical, but it's immediately answered. A person with ALS or MS is not actively and intentionally sabotaging you. A person with an emotional condition could be. If they are, they're probably not worth it.

Put the bunny (Fe) and the Deer (Si) safe in their cages, and release your (Ti) Snowy Owl talons out! Fuck, it might even be time to combine your Ne (the Monkey) and Ti (the Snowy Owl) super-powers and bring on the Flying Monkey of Feminine Chaos.

7, What in the actual fuck?

My friend committed suicide while I was away. Divorce gone bad.

That is terrible. I'm sorry for your loss, sclass.

@frita - obviously none of us know the extent of what's going on for you, but I will say that it sounds like you are approaching your situation with open eyes and an open heart, even if there is some residual programming that is difficult to jettison. To the extent helpful, I offer a few (potentially relevant) observations I made when undergoing my own face-to-face with the reality of my first marriage:

2. Taking the first step of moving out is scary as fuck, but it changes things and you learn a lot through change. Strip away default choices and inertia, and real preferences get revealed awfully quickly. It is truly astonishing to learn that what you formerly were “willing to put up with” becomes “yeah, I can’t affirmatively select that”. The shift in perspective is ... forceful.

3. Changing the status quo results in unexpected follow-on effects. Primary among these is the unanticipated personal learning and growth mentioned above, but the other real surprise is seeing how your (former) partner reacts to this change. It is instructive, mostly because it is not easily predictable.
...
7. So what’s next? My old marriage is dead. I cannot predict where all of this change will lead me, other than to say “not back”. My wife and I will move forward together in some capacity, the extent of which remains to be fully determined. But I feel strong. I know myself better. I know my boundaries better, and I know better how to preserve them when tested. I’m more willing to bear natural consequences as opposed to trying to control or manage them. I feel free - free to choose my path, to love those who have been placed on my path, to explore, to learn, to see, to reveal, and, most importantly, to accept. Yeah. I feel strong. I feel good.

I don't know your jurisdiction or the assets and relationships at play here, but agree that before you leave the house, you need to talk to a lawyer and know the risks/benefits of such a move. Best of luck.

[7Wannabe5]

What in the actual fuck?

Just my rather ornate way of communicating what you wrote here:

Changing the status quo results in unexpected follow-on effects. Primary among these is the unanticipated personal learning and growth mentioned above, but the other real surprise is seeing how your (former) partner reacts to this change. It is instructive, mostly because it is not easily predictable.

I was attempting (likely quite poorly) to describe a manner in which she could act out of typical "good wife" role, yet in a character well within the authentic potential of eNtP female. One little known fact about the eNtP female AKA 7 Enthusiast/Explorer on the cusp of 6 Traditionalist is that it is often the case that Homemaker is one of our purpose-driven Generalist natural fit roles, especially if first or only sister in Family of Origin. Therefore, if/when our marriages fail, it can be like simultaneously losing a significant relationship and a significant purpose. However, it was my experience that the attempt to keep propping my ex up in the complementary Paterfamilias role was deadening on multiple levels. Therefore, I am suggesting that Frita to some extent release her own special sauce flavor of inner Bad Girl, because that archtype is the opposite of Good Wife/Homemaker, and thus most likely to produce unpredictable ice-floe breaking response from her husband.

Since, like me, she also obviously has a solid rep for being "good' in the sense of "frugal" as a financial partner/homemaker, threatening that status quo might also be perversely productive. In retrospect, I think the fact that I was so "good" about the financial break-up of my marriages was on some level dysfunctional, because actually conveyed a level of semi-conscious disrespect for my exes, like they were babies likely to throw fits and I was the tough one prepared to go out into the woods again with just a knife and a canteen.

[Henry]

You can't have possible mental illness on one hand, and unleash your Xena warrior princess on the other. He has checked out. The question is why and if it's irrevocable. If he has gone Full Metal Jacket then GTFO of the house. If prefers video games, dick, or solipsism, well then maybe you can walk around looking like Barbarella although I doubt that will change anything. It's then Frita's personal views towards divorce.

[Frita]

Long way of saying, drop the rope. That doesn’t have to mean divorce. It just means giving yourself the freedom to accept that you are not responsible for him and his choices and that it’s okay for you to live the life that you want to live.

I agree that everyone deserves “to be with someone who wants to be with you and who puts effort into themself and the relationship.” The path forward is simple but not easy.

Thank you for sharing your dad’s early retirement idleness trip. It sounds frustrating to watch him slowly self-destruct over 20 years and need to lose a foot to consider change. It was always his choice and wasn’t about anyone else.

Good for your mom leaving when she did. It’s probably easier for you and your sisters to set boundaries with the BS than it would be for her. My mom was a 50s-era wife when women were told they were responsible for their husbands and kids (and men were told their job was to make a living, be king of the castle, and all sorts of abusive behaviors were okay). That system generates guilt to keep these women in line. My mom still unconsciously operates with that paradigm.

I am not suggesting that divorce is the answer here, but that marriage/partnership requires accommodation on the part of both people and that ultimately can lead to limiting oneself in some way(s). It is worth considering what limits the marriage creates and if the benefits of the marriage are worth the cost.

How amazing to watch your mom grieve your father’s death, grow into true herself, and enjoy life! It is a hopeful story.

Win-win collaboration is a healthier dynamic. Compromising is both sides giving up and gaining something. There can also be that competing-accommodation dynamic where only one person is winning while the other loses. Long-term pretending that accommodation is compromising does not work. Avoiding is a lose-lose situation. As you pointed out, the cost-benefit analysis shows the individual yield of the relationship and its overall health/viability.

Yah, I also wondered if he might be gay. He said he isn’t. Bummer, I’d be more open to divorce in support of authenticity and integrity.

Noted to be aware of having alibis if he is out doing stupid things.

Yes, I also have wondered what else he may be doing and brought it up. He denied hookups, internet porn, online gambling, etc. But I am dealing with a known liar and chronic manipulator so there you go.

Of the choices as present, door number three is the most appealing. My post-retirement spouse is very push-pull. All I have to do is watch him grab onto both sides of the rope. I think I can disentangle myself from the rope and step outside of my box regardless of what he does.

Damn, you know how to make me belly laugh and feel better! I view this temporary homebase thing as more of having a housesitter. Once he retired, I insisted that he start helping with the cleaning, laundry, and yard work. He still, as recently as yesterday, pulls stuff like the “I’m out of Kleenex. (Subtext: I recycled the box but don’t want take a new one out of the cupboard. Can you do it for me?)” My prompt/reply was, “Where do we store the extra boxes?”

It is like living with an emotional seven year old who sometimes morphs into hormonal young teen. Neither are partner material. I don’t want to parent him either.

As you point out, I have possibilities. One of my edges is to go live in a Bruderhof settlement (The shirts are awful, but I have the hair.). It’s as likely as me learning to use a dating app to order up a dude who is young enough to be my son and has enough money for beer and pizza. Playing along: I think my spouse would see the picture, come up and dazzle 37 year with his people-pleasing persona, ask me if we can use paper plates, grab a couple slices and a beer, and scurry down to the bat cave.

Congratulations to you and your spouse phasing out of your work roles into retiring towards. How does having your own business affect the process?

Points taken. I can’t and won’t speak for @7w5. For me, the humor added some levity to a crushing situation. Though I am progressive, my marriage programming is quite conservative. I take my vow very seriously and won’t be doing any cheating. That’s not on my list of actual exploration possibilities, though I’m down to brainstorm.

Misogyny (in my marriage and in the US culture) is a thing, so the tongue-in-cheek scenario also challenges that. I appreciate you opening up the conversation that will continue on the Sexual Wheaton Table thread.

I am so sorry to hear about your friend. Suicide can be such a shock. I hear your pain, trying to make sense of something avoidable that was not within your control and accepting the gravity of untreated mental illness. It sounds like your wife is a huge source of support for you now, as she has been during your time together. Your sum is greater than your two parts.

Ultimately, I have to ask for and accept the help I need. This is my responsibility as an adult. If someone brings up an issue, I need to engage if I choose to grow. I cannot expect someone to caretake me, nor do that to someone else. I don’t always feel strong but support certainly helps to bolster myself.

Yes, my spouse has developed mental health issues and refuses help. In the recent past, he has threatened multiple times to hurt himself (no plan, so it’s not actionable on my end, ran it by my counselor). That could be part of my apprehension to leave. Threats can also be a form of manipulation and emotional abuse. In the back of my mind, I wonder if he’ll be back when he leaves the house or what I may find after some time away. I know my son deals with this too. We’re not in control. It sucks.

With someone who is not willing to be responsible and compromise, accommodation surfaces. Yes, I participate in this. I strive to not deny or enable. It’s a tightrope. I am tired and exploring that 1st quadrant of win-win collaboration through a different lense. My actions to benefit myself and my son can be positive. And perhaps by participating less in whatever this dynamic is, my spouse realizes he’s willing to do the work to help himself. Or not. As you pointed out, slowly moving toward a target is necessary.

Ha, I hope the time at your parents was productive. DS and I are going to be at my mom’s next week to help out. Not sure how the hoard will be. My mom has interpreted my spouses non-attendance as confirmation that he hates her and numerous fortune-telling scenarios. I just don’t take the bait and say, “What did he say when you asked him directly?” Ugh, I was trained to tolerate dysfunction , though I am no longer accepting new clients.

[7Wannabe5]

If prefers video games, dick, or solipsism, well then maybe you can walk around looking like Barbarella although I doubt that will change anything. It's then Frita's personal views towards divorce.

Playing along: I think my spouse would see the picture, come up and dazzle 37 year with his people-pleasing persona, ask me if we can use paper plates, grab a couple slices and a beer, and scurry down to the bat cave.

Yeah, this is what I thought about my first husband and his level of check-out. Prior to separating, I even suggested an open marriage (he was coincidentally spending the weekend in his darkened cave watching French films), and he calmly took it into consideration and responded, "I think I'm too American for that."

But.....then, as I detailed above, hearing that I actually had a dinner date with a physicist*caused him to go completely whacko-wanting-to-get-back-together-with-me. Schnarch describes this well known phenomenon as Siamese Twin syndrome, and it often occurs when the formerly seemingly more disengaged partner suddenly somehow realizes that their more engaged partner has actually dropped the rope. The fact that Frita's husband is still doing the "Where's the kleenex?" thing underscores that he is still completely in the realm of "taking her for granted." Because he has probably also done the very typical big-sister/little-sister split between Frita and Romanian Underwear Girl or even Romanian Underwear Boy, or even Romanian Mashed Potato UFO Modeling Club, any behavior Frita can exude that signals the opposite of Competent Reliable Mumsy might trigger reaction. I have been self-aware on both sides of this split in different relationships and it's like this indescribably huge male blind spot. Unfortunately, her take on divorce is likely contributing to his ability to take her for granted.

*The detail that my dinner date was a physicist only matters because my ex grew up in the most educated city in the U.S. where brains signal more status than money, appendage size, etc.

[Frita]

A person with ALS or MS is not actively and intentionally sabotaging you. A person with an emotional condition could be. If they are, they're probably not worth it.

Hair-splitting: ALS and MS both can manifest with anxiety and depression. Self-sabotage can also be part of both mental health conditions.

I agree that there’s a point, definitely now, where the spouse (me) has to choose between more of the same or something different. Going on as things are is no longer an option for me (even if I don’t know what that looks like). Your observations (Thanks for sharing.) are helpful and #7 resonates in that the marriage is changing one way or another.

Financially, I should be fine. There are some control needs there on his part. I’d rather not poke the bear for fun.

Yes, he is checked out and entitled. My view of not divorcing is interpreted as permission for him to act this way. I am done with performing all the emotional labor. And I am not buying anymore Kleenex! (I don’t even use it. Obviously, some other things need to land on the stop list, like being less patient.)

One little known fact about the eNtP female AKA 7 Enthusiast/Explorer on the cusp of 6 Traditionalist is that it is often the case that Homemaker is one of our purpose-driven Generalist natural fit roles, especially if first or only sister in Family of Origin. Therefore, if/when our marriages fail, it can be like simultaneously losing a significant relationship and a significant purpose.

Domestic arts and sciences tick a lot of boxes for me. I am an oldest daughter married to a youngest son. The unresolved issues do represent the loss of a hoped for relationship and purpose. Sure, I need to respond differently if I hope for a better result. This is about finding and getting what I want for myself, not trying to work together as a couple for or to force a change.

You can't have possible mental illness on one hand, and unleash your Xena warrior princess on the other. He has checked out. The question is why and if it's irrevocable. If he has gone Full Metal Jacket then GTFO of the house. If prefers video games, dick, or solipsism, well then maybe you can walk around looking like Barbarella although I doubt that will change anything. It's then Frita's personal views towards divorce.

Nice mental picture of the futility of trying to influence what is beyond my control. Part of me is cognitively flexible about divorce at some point. It’s just not my opening move or something I want to use as a threat. Currently, I am revamping what I am headed towards so that I am not just running away without learning whatever the lesson is.

[ertyu]

I read through page 2 of this saga and -- Frita, this marriage is over. Wtf does it matter if you're divorced or not if the marriage is over???

An intuition I had, which I offer in case it's helpful (and which, like everything else I write, you should disregard if it isn't -- what I wrote below came out harsh, I believe in it, but the harshness means the disclaimer applies double): right now you're in the negotiation stage of the 5 stages. But maybe if I dropped the rope. Maybe if I stopped buying kleenex. Maybe if I used the home in XYZ ways as home base -- maybe, maybe, maybe, if I did this that and the third thing, it will somehow be ok and I can somehow stay married.

But you are not dealing with a well-intentioned individual. You are dealing with someone who wants to keep you in a position of service provider, and who is not averse to manipulation and inflicting emotional damage on you if you deviate from your role (i could pull quotes, but this is all over what you wrote above). You stop buying Kleenex, and a person like that gets malicious and starts trying to force you back down to where you, in his eyes, belong.

Tldr you'll end up divorced anyway, just this time around you'll have given him the time to get vindictive, malicious, and nasty, and to mobilize around hurting you and getting a win (extremely easy to latch onto bullshit like that bc it's energizing when you''ve reduced your life to what your husband has reduced his). You'll get divorced, you'll suffer way more, and the only gain you'll have from the whole process is that you would have avoided taking responsibility -- it is after all not your responsibility if he's malicious enough, awful enough, uncooperative enough -- you gave it your best, didn't you?

Well, here's my question: why is avoiding responsibility so important? Who do you think it'll make you that's so important not to be? Do you think God will smite you? (one hint from my own navelgazings: if I fear that god or the universe will punish me, it's lways me projecting some aspect of my parents bullshit on the "grand impersonal powers of the world" -- which, as soon as you see it, makes the whole thing easy to drop because if you truly believe in God, you also believe God is more and greater than petty monkey bullshit).

Is it fear of change? Of facing old age? Or of your son hating you? Or are you attached to your image of yourself as virtuous, so you're trying not to own the full extent of you that might not jive with that? Beats me, but what I do know is you need to get brutally, mercilessly honest w yourself and stare all your bullshit in the face, and you need to do it yesterday. As someone who is full of bullshit, I can vouch that it helps. Don't be scared that if you look at it, it might be true. It doesn't stop being true or not true just because you'd rather not see it.

ETA: no need to answer this post -- we're not who needs the answers