Nausea from Virtual Reality

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zbigi
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by zbigi »

In my case, it does not come from limits to growth, but rather from limits to how much I'm willing to work. I prefer to work less and not ever go to e.g. Japan, esp. if I can see it on the Internet instead - and that's considering that a trip to Japan would probably cost a couple days of my labor (tells you how much I dislike working at the jobs I've had). Also, I find tourism very superficial and ultimately disappointing, especially if I don't know the local language - it gives me an experience that's mostly just visual, and I can get that from youtube.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

@zbigi - Randers's two predictions are not about limits and not being able to afford it but that there will be too many people who can afford these experiences. The first prediction has to do with a growing and richer global middle class turning what was previously an exclusive experience into a sucky touristic ordeal, e.g. spending hours standing in line to see the Mona Lisa, the crowd/garbage heaps on top of famous mountain peaks, and turning flying into uncomfortably small seats and literally being served [only] peanuts. The second has to do with electronic entertainment becoming very good and eventually preferential to the diminishing "real world" experience above. So technically, in your case, the switch has already happened.

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Sclass
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Sclass »

Interesting.

Another advantage of just watching an oculus walking tour video is it only takes a few minutes. I can go right back to doing what I was doing five minutes before without any switching overhead. Switching overhead is like going to the airport, clearing customs, getting up in my hotel room, walking down to the tour bus, riding to Petra. Getting back on the bus, riding back to the hotel. Getting on a return flight. Clearing customs.

I don’t intend to go to Petra. But I have felt some of the experience of walking around over there. To get to 100% of the experience takes a lot more energy and time.

I go to family reunions where the old people (and recently a few young) go on for hours about their summer trip to Cairo, Versailles, Tower of London, Great Wall, Florence etc. I never plan on doing this in retirement. That is going somewhere I have no connections to visit a tourist trap on a bucket list…so I can talk about it to my relatives. I know, it sounds kind of like a loser thing, just sit in my home with my goggles on. But it is just so much faster and easier.

It is kind of inline with a lot of my frugal activities. My neighbor rolls up on his fancy $20,000 Austrian motorcycle when I’m working on my twenty year old $2000 model. He keeps saying I need to live and just get the exotic motorcycle with the fancy Swedish suspension. And I acknowledge that it is higher performance, lighter and exhilarating to ride. But 10x? I’m having a great time on my twenty year old model and we ride in the same wilderness park on the same trails. Perhaps 75% of the fun for 10% of the money? That’s my kind of deal.

So that’s where this VR tourism fits in. Maybe it’s 30% the experience of walking up to Petra. But it’s 1% the effort. And I can do it when I’m taking breaks from working on something else that may be more immediately productive like fixing my garage door or setting up my Instant Pot.

Scott 2
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Scott 2 »

I tried telling my wife this when she wanted to visit Portland. I pulled up Google Street view and we looked at the places. I said "now you've been there!"

She was not convinced. I think the idea of a VR trip as substitute, would be upsetting to many.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2023 7:06 am
... where the old people (and recently a few young) go on for hours about their summer trip to Cairo, Versailles, Tower of London, Great Wall, Florence etc.
A substantial fraction of humanity (70%) (re)live in their memories (Si) or for immediate concrete experiences (Se), where VR would feel like an lowres experience.

Those of us who live in/by our ideas and future goals don't really see the attraction in talking about the past or paying for the hires experience when the difference from the lowres experience doesn't make a difference in our ideas.

In short, while some surely travel to play the status game and some merely travel because they mimic others doing it, for some it is the raw material of their lived experience.

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Jean
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Jean »

i wish more people would live in vr more.

thef0x
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by thef0x »

I've really enjoyed VR and yes, some games are just intolerable while others with tons of motion are great. Part of it is tech: frame refresh rate needs to approximate human refresh rate or else motion feels laggy and our brain doesn't like that.

If you have a quest, make sure to use max fps (120?) to help.

Modded beat saber is still one of my favorite ways to get 30 minutes of cardio when I can't spare much time before or after to prep/cool down.

Don't let others here shame you for enjoying your life. The lack of creativity of another person not being able to imagine having the fun your having doesn't mean anything about the fun you're having. Make it fit in your life in a healthy way and you're set.

Enjoy your gaming!

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

I wonder whether adding some motion to align the inner ear with the eyes would help to alleviate the symptoms.

There are different chair-systems, like this https://dofreality.com/ , depending on whether you pretend to be a car, a plane, or a space cadet.

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Sclass
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Sclass »

Likely so. For me it’s the mismatch between what I see in the visor vs. what is physically happening to my body. The worst is in the driving sim where I slam the brakes and the VR image of the view from my windshield pitches downward yet my head stays perfectly stationary. Instant nausea. I do this all the time in a real car but on that VR it’s a completely disconnected sensation.

I’m getting sick just thinking about it.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

Looking at their specs/pics, each axis seems to be a 300W (~1/2hp) gearmotor at ~14rpm (<- slow, maybe hard to find) with 25Nm torque (<- that doesn't seem like a lot?!?).

A one-axis motor that dips the chair seems like it would be a good first project. Advantage being that cars always return to neutral. I'm still not sure how e.g. rolls and loops are handled for aircraft. What does the seat do when the plane goes 360?

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Sclass
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Sclass »

Dunno I don’t fly.

Those sound like wimpy motors. The ones on the rides in theme parks like Harry Potter at Universal Studios really toss you around. They really cannot maintain reasonable acceleration for long.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

The link above gives a max G effect on some of the fancier chairs above at 0.5-0.8G.

Likely the flight models for the chairs try to simulate perceived gravity rather than trying to orient the chair like the plane itself. If a turn is done correctly (no slip, no skid), the acceleration would remain 1g downwards, so the chair would not bank for example. OTOH, if you roll 90 and fly straight ahead, you'd have gravity from the side. This leads me to believe that "it's complicated" and not fully simulated. That the idea is to provide some motion but not necessarily the physically correct motion.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Walwen »

I visited a VR roller coaster thingy installed in a mall. It was "buy one get one free", as in, you paid a set price, and then one or two people could view it. It might be worth it for 2 people, especially as a treat for a child, but it was a little too pricy for just me. 17 dollars for 5-10 minutes of VR? What am I, made of money?

You got to pick between a selection of roller coaster rides ranging from Candyland-themed baby rides to horror ones. I went on one where dragons swooped all around. It lasted maybe 5 minutes and I was pretty unimpressed with the graphics and immersion, however there was 0 motion sickness. I also did not get any "dropping" feelings whatsoever despite the ride being a roller coaster. It got me wondering if the VR was intentionally BAD as to provide a better average experience, especially for children. Little kids are probably a lot more impressed with a slightly less realistic experience vs. a more immersive 3D view that makes them throw up.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

I "won" @Slevin's HTC Vive on the "swap thread" and so I got a chance to try VR for the first time. Wow! This is something else!

Setup: The HTC Vive is from 2016(?) which perfectly matches my computer build which is from the same era. I run a GeForce GTX 1060/6GB graphics setup, which can so-far drive pretty much any game at 1080p which also happens to be the resolution of my monitor as well as the resolution of the Vive. Coincidence? No, I'm literally ten years behind current times, but I'm ten years behind consistently ;-) However, VR was impressive even ten years ago.

If I understand correctly, this generation of VR was the first that incorporated headtracking and controller tracking. This required installing two base station scanners diagonally opposite from each other to see where "I" (we'll get back to that) am in the world. @Slevin also generously offered me his tripods, but I have a small room, so I built a pair of monopods instead and screwed them directly into my tables. Like this:

Image

I opted for a "seated" installation because I mainly wanted it for flying. This might ruin a bit of the potential immersion (like I'm not compelled to duck and cover, walk, or swing my arms around).

The experience is a big like sticking your head into another world, but only your head. The depth perception is perfect and you can look around all 720 degrees. This is different from the TrackIR I've previously been using, where I could move my head to change my POV, but was effectively limited to a cone 45 degrees forward. (Even TrackIR was a big leap forward for flight-simming. Being able to look around helps so much with orienting yourself towards the ground. The old days, where you had a fixed forward view was comparable to night-time flying, which is a lot harder.)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2217730/theBlu/ (underwater with a giant humpback whale swimming by)
https://store.steampowered.com/app/5134 ... lin_Blitz/ (onboard a Lancaster in a WWII bombing raid)
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1197 ... Tim_Peake/ (wanna go to space)

The last one brought a little tear to my eye. That's likely because I'm more into space than whales.

Pros:
  • It's like 90% being there compared to reality. If you add up the full experience of something, you get 95% eyeball, 100% sound, 0% smell, 0% taste, 0% effort, 0% wind in the hair, ... you get my point. (You can rescale according to your own preferences, like if smell matters a lot to you and you're legally blind, the experience is going to be less.)
  • It's vastly easier and cheaper to "go" with VR than going for real. I've sometimes thought of blowing $250k on a 2 minute trip to space on a tech-billionaire rocket, but that seems completely pointless now. Score +1 for Randers2052.
  • No nausea (yet!). However, I suspect this is because I've mainly tried "experiences" where you remain pretty un-accelerated (~constant motion, like the Lancaster trip, is not a problem). Apparently nausea comes about when the seen acceleration doesn't match the felt one. I've had no issues with vertigo(*), etc. I also tried https://store.steampowered.com/app/1073390/Aircar/ but it accelerates too slow to get sick. I was actually more sick one of the first times I flew in DCS with headtracking.
  • People who combine it with even a 3DOF chair for flying say it feels pretty close to the real thing. (This might also solve the nausea problem.) 6DOF chairs are even wilder. Current cost of motion seats is about $1000 per degree of freedom.
(*) Which is interesting since I'm definitely no fan of ledges, etc. in reality.

Cons:
  • The headset feels heavy and warm after a while.
  • Sweating or crying inside the headset can get a little foggy. It's like the old problem with a foggy diving mask.
  • The 1080p resolution is sometimes grainy (looks more 640x480ish) because the pixels are only 1" from your eyeball. Certain things look at bit like you're looking through a screen door (the so-called "screen door effect"). This is not a problem for landscapes but it is a problem for cockpit instrument panels which are hard to read. Newer headsets have four times the resolution and should have almost eliminated this.
In short, the "experience" links is a bit like if you cut your head off and put it in a slightly meshy box and mailed it somewhere/anywhere where it could look around wearing a diving mask (similar field of vision) and a crash helmet. That might not sound appealing until you realize that this literally can be ANYWHERE. The bottom of the ocean, the top of Mt Everest, in orbit around the moon, in a giant battle, the future, the past, historic events, at the size of a molecule,... OTOH, the rest of your body stays where it is. I have not at any point felt like "I" was there... just the head part of me.

Add: The interface uses those "wand"-controllers. You can see the controller and the base stations inside VR, so that's your connection to the real world. To pick something up, you might touch the controller to it, use the trigger to grab it, and then move it around. It might be that some sort of glove or even a full haptic suit would change the sensation to being immersed with your body and not just your head/controller(s). If I saw a hand moving like my hand instead of the controller, it would be more convincing.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by J_ »

Often I get nausea from reality. So far I only use the negative form of virtual reality.

I stop disturbing human voices or unwanted radio sound or machine sound by a noise canceling headphone, when I try to concentrate on a good book in my noisy city garden. Or if I want to think.

And I wonder, reading @Sclass, would VR tourism make an end of over touristed places?

@Jacobs description of how he "undergoes" what he sees and hears during a VR film make me curious. Is it just another elaborate way to attract people to cinema's?

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

Mission accomplished! I managed to get motion sick, yay! :-P

After fiddling with the settings in DCS, I increased the framerate from the 16-20fps (borderline unplayable) to a playable 30fps. (Most want at least 50-70fps which is also what I get in 2D+headtracking). I'm definitely barely meeting the minimum recommendations though. I've gone from "most things on high" to "almost everything on low/off".

I found there is a setting to keep the cockpit itself at a higher resolution than the outside. This is good enough to use the optical targeting system (basically a small TV for the sensors inside the cockpit) which is a deal breaker for anything else than flying around.

Click here https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ ... s/3334758/ to see the cockpit. Click on the small pic in the top left to blow it up. The targeting system is the black/white TV monitor in the top right (not on). Being a mid-level sim, every instrument on the front panels works/means something---I know what they are/do. The switches/warning lights on the side panels are just for show---I have no idea. When you're in VR, you can see them all as you look around though.

I still think the biggest issue I have is that the headset gets warm. I know some people have a fan blowing at them. I might have to do that. The nausea is mild and strangely delayed, so it's actually worse after I stop flying.

I've noticed that not all kinds of flying triggers it. The worst is banking steadily at a 30-60 degree angle. Especially if jinking from one side to the other. I did a "canyon run" along a river 50m above the ground and that was what finally set it off.

Doing fast rolls or loops or flying upside down is okay. It's the banking that makes me sort of bodily sway (thus triggering the inner ear) in a way that doesn't correspond to what my eyes (which remains fixed) actually see. Unlike @SClass's problem, where the vision field changes at the car brakes while his head doesn't move, mine is likely fixable because it's the other way around. I just gotta stop believing I'm in a real plane and stop moving my head to keep it upright when it's already upright(*). Maybe build a[n ejection] seat and strap myself in with a 5 point harness.

(*) Same mistake as rookie motorcycle passengers make, trying to stay upright around a corner instead of leaning with the bike.

BTW, out of laziness, I finished the flight by ejecting. Free parachute ride down the ground. This is much cooler than ejecting in 2D.

I've also noticed that while one does have full peripheral vision, the periphery is not as sharp as the center. IOW, if you move your eyes to look to a corner, it's not as sharp as moving your head and keeping them centered. This is some kind of lens-design artifact (it looks more like a Fresnel lens that a smooth lens). I don't know if all lenses are like that or whether this is just an older generation. So for example, if you're reading a poster in VR, you'll be moving your head along with the words to keep them sharp; not just your eyes. This takes a bit getting used to.

My GTX1060 is also not powerful enough. I had to switch off anti-aliasing to increase the fps, so straight lines like the horizon sometimes look like a stepladder rather than a line, ugh! Despite being 1080p, it looks rather more grainy. It has the distinct look of a 1990s sim except everything is 3D which does absolute wonders for orientation and depth perception---even more than TrackIR. I suspect this is because VR adds actual depth perception whereas TrackIR's depth perception is kinda fake relying on how big and detailed the object (e.g. tree on the ground) is. Pulling a Tom Cruise or "flying paint" doesn't seem as dangerous as it would be with with headtracking only.

I'm going to be doing some testing. Probably re-flying all the training missions. Ultimately, I'll have to make a tough choice between building a traditional pit dedicated to one plane (the original plan) or going VR+motion chair for a more generalized experience.

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Sclass
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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Sclass »

jacob wrote:
Tue May 14, 2024 8:32 am
[*]It's vastly easier and cheaper to "go" with VR than going for real. I've sometimes thought of blowing $250k on a 2 minute trip to space on a tech-billionaire rocket, but that seems completely pointless now.
Yeah it’s one of those things where you get X% the experience at a tiny fraction of the price.

My quest 2 doesn’t seem to make me feel like my head is cut off and put into another world. I think it is set up a little differently. The latest quest seems like a big improvement over what I bought. It’s a bit more expensive. The Apple one is even more expensive.

Just reading your post made me sea sick. I completely gave up on gaming with the thing. It just makes me too sick. Takes a long time to feel okay again.

The flight sim sounds like fun. I’ve always wanted to fly but I’m afraid of accidents. I think VR is good in that you can crash all you want. The helicopter rigs look really cool. My friend who worked on the sims at NASA says he can fly most combat helicopters now. He doesn’t even have a basic fixed wing license. There is something cool about that. Someday you may be in a situation where you’re forced to fly.

As for eliminating tourism IDK. A lot of travel seems to be done to tell other people where you went. I have this test for all kinds of purchases and activities that basically starts with “if you cannot tell a soul what you bought or went would you still want it?” VR doesn’t have that. It’s sounds kind of pathetic staying home and watching 360vr vids of Cairo. I mean I do it and I likely will never go to see the pyramids but it’s not something I’d rave about at the next cocktail party I attend.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:
Wed May 15, 2024 5:51 pm
As for eliminating tourism IDK. A lot of travel seems to be done to tell other people where you went. I have this test for all kinds of purchases and activities that basically starts with “if you cannot tell a soul what you bought or went would you still want it?” VR doesn’t have that. It’s sounds kind of pathetic staying home and watching 360vr vids of Cairo. I mean I do it and I likely will never go to see the pyramids but it’s not something I’d rave about at the next cocktail party I attend.
Despite Apple's and Facebook's marketing departments' attempts, VR still occupies a technical niche---maybe I'm just in a bubble---that predominantly appeals to affluent middle-aged nerds. I understand the positional goods argument. However, I would not put VR in that category. To me VR is to 2020 what the computer was to 1985. Some people "had a computer at home" (and the school had one to share for each 200 students), but it wasn't something people bragged about. Ditto VHS and Betamax recorders. Similarly, I think the VR experiences will be closer to talking about movies people have watched. Not bragging, but sharing a common experience. The effect on travel will likely be indirect. People can currently brag about it because exotic travel is expensive and the experience is rare. If VR renders the experience (at least the interesting sights and sounds of it) common, then traveling for real is merely paying a lot to experience crowds and travel diarrhea.

If I google around, adoption numbers are all over the place. It suggests that 25-50% of Americans have tried VR and that 12% own a set. More interestingly, is that many show no interest in trying but those who have tried keep coming back for more... just like heroin, I guess. Maybe I do live in a bubble, because outside the forum I only know one person who has tried and owned a set. He eventually sold it again due to ... nausea :-P

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by Smashter »

My wife just went to the eye doctor, and she came back complaining of dizziness and nausea. Apparently they put a VR headset on her to do some sort of fancy schmancy eye exam?? I had no idea these systems were being used in medical settings with the average Joe.

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Re: Nausea from Virtual Reality

Post by J_ »

jacob wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 7:59 am
Similarly, I think the VR experiences will be closer to talking about movies people have watched. Not bragging, but sharing a common experience. The effect on travel will likely be indirect. People can currently brag about it because exotic travel is expensive and the experience is rare. If VR renders the experience (at least the interesting sights and sounds of it) common, then traveling for real is merely paying a lot to experience crowds and travel diarrhea.
Yes, perhaps that will get some brake against over-tourism what is happening now in Amsterdam or Venice.

Today I tried in my home town to visit a hall with VR possibilities. There were none of interest to me. Only ones (silly to me) with games or car racing. So I have not yet seen any VR experience in my life.

For training I can imagine the use of VR: learning/feeling to fly, to steer a (super) tanker, to learn (heart-) surgery. Difficult and precise skills while working in three dimensions. Architecture, town planning, tinkering for mechanical solutions.

But I wonder: I have been in Manhattan (35 years ago), seen the Eiffel tower, the Gehry Building in Bilbao, the cathedral of Rouen and the Aya Sophia.

How would it be to see in VR the piramides of Cheops, or the Vaticaan buildings which I only know from flat films or photos?

How/where can I get such VR experiences?

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