What is a good learner car? (as in learning to fix and maintain yourself)

[Chris]

An air-cooled Beetle.

Edit: To expand on this, VW spare parts are ubiquitous worldwide

This is the key I think. Models manufactured in large have lots of cheap aftermarket parts available, including at the local pick-n-pull junkyard. More specifically, it's not particular model that's desirable, but successful vehicle platforms, as several models can be produced on the same mechanical platform (example).

Another advantage to seeking high-volume models is that with a large dataset, the engineering weakpoints have already been sussed out. The Wikipedia pages for various models have production numbers.

Likely targets will include: long production runs (like the original Beetle), commuter econoboxes (Corolla, Civic, Elantra), fleet cars (Crown Vic), work vehicles (Econoline).

[delay]

From what I hear, modern car maintenance is component based. One plugs the car into a vendor supplied computer and it says what to replace. The components are very specific. Efficiency is the opposite of robustness. Both the car and the component are easily damaged, so replacing a component is delicate work. For example, the steering column of a 2000 Skoda Fabia https://www.skodabook.ru/en/Fabia/6Y/ch ... o743674908

On average, doing repairs yourself actually costs money. That's why nowadays you only see people repairing cars in rich neighborhoods. Car repair has become an expensive hobby. Times have changed since Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

[Slevin]

My old jeep wrangler ( I don’t really drive it) is kinda a bad “car” (bad mpg, loud, meant for places without roads), but it has the incredible upside of having a good amount of engine room space, uses about three wrench sizes to take apart every single piece, is incredibly well documented, has ubiquitously available parts, has the most custom / aftermarket parts of maybe any car ever made (definitely up there), and literally nothing in the whole vehicle is overly expensive to replace or hidden away from the user via difficult access, etc. The old Willys jeeps were literally built to be taken apart and reassembled to cross rivers. Over time they get a little worse and a little worse to repair due to feature creep, but up the to the TJ or so, working on them is still pretty simple. After that, the engine becomes garbage and things get less fun to repair.

In fact, many old jeep wranglers exist fit the ship of Theseus description, where literally every part has been switched out over time until you question whether the mpg on the dashboard means anything. If you look at Jeep wrangler listings online, most have a large list of modifications undertaken by the last owners to make it cooler / better for off-roading / etc. Not many vehicles have a similar cult following / collecting of the old vehicles that does that repair and improvement, and many many parts companies still make new parts for the 50 year old vehicles.

[jacob]

@Slevin - Haha, I know a couple of Jeep Wrangler people. That seems more like a lifestyle/exercise in masochism. I think I could get into that though. Would also solve the winter/pothole issues of the local roads. OTOH, they're kinda shite on the freeway or anywhere above 50mph, though, right?

@Chris - I've tried talking DW into a Crown Vic for years and years. I'm not winning this one. Somehow she does not want to drive a tank. I do not understand why not.

[Slevin]

@Slevin - Haha, I know a couple of Jeep Wrangler people. That seems more like a lifestyle/exercise in masochism. I think I could get into that though. Would also solve the winter/pothole issues of the local roads. OTOH, they're kinda shite on the freeway or anywhere above 50mph, though, right?

Agreed, though I drive mine about 1000/ miles a year at most, so maintenance is minimal (I’m probably selling soon for same reason. Depreciation is 25% over 20 years, which can’t be said for almost any other cars either). They are loud from large tires and there is a lot of road noise above 50mph, and struggle in the mountains above 60ish mph. On a flat the TJs can make it to 90 or 95, but the whole vehicle is tuned for off-roading more than going fast.

[Laura Ingalls]

Maybe a late 90’s Astro van? They are a kind of a cult item for non fancy van people.

Personally, I lived through the 70’s and 80’s and watched my dad wrenching on various old cars. And being broke down on the side of the road. It was the only times I heard him swear.

Those experience turned me into a buy and hold Toyota gal. I got 15 years and 245,xxx on the last one when elder offspring hit a parked car. Currently, my wheels are 15 years old (12 that I have owned it) and it spots a giant dent in the driver’s door courtesy of younger offspring. I have 162,xxx miles and going strong.

[white belt]

Likely targets will include: long production runs (like the original Beetle), commuter econoboxes (Corolla, Civic, Elantra), fleet cars (Crown Vic), work vehicles (Econoline).

I think this is the best way to ensure your car will be reliable and that there will be a surplus of resources/parts to solve any issues that may resolve. For example, my Pontiac Vibe uses a Toyota 1ZZ-FE engine. This engine is also in the Corolla, Celica, RAV4, Matrix, and a dozen other models around the world. There is no shortage of parts.

Another strategy is to be a car enthusiast for a specific model. I know a few people who like certain models or types of cars, whether that’s Japanese imports, sports cars from yesteryear, trucks, vans, etc. They buy used, do their own maintenance, and enjoy the vehicles. Then they resell them down the line for a low/no annual cost because many of these vehicles retain value. The downside of a strategy that relies on retaining resale value is you probably have to pay for collision insurance. The other downside is that if you care for safety measures like SRS airbags, side curtain airbags, etc then these cars usually won’t have that. I’ll leave Sclass to comment further on this since he knows way more than me.

Edit: I will also add that there can be value in having a larger car with some storage/towing/hauling capacity. A larger vehicle allows one to take advantage of serendipity. Maybe you stumble upon some wood/furniture on the side of the road that you can load up. Maybe your friend is getting rid of an old appliance and will offer it to you for free if you can haul it away. Yes, you can rent a truck for a few hours, but in my experience a lot of these opportunities come up unexpectedly and can’t even wait a few hours. The downside is balancing operating and capital costs of a larger vehicle.

[ducknald_don]

My old jeep wrangler ( I don’t really drive it) is kinda a bad “car” (bad mpg, loud, meant for places without roads),

I have a feeling the maths around what car to run is completely different in Europe because of high fuel costs, road taxes, insurance costs and low emission zones. These all mean someone looking for cheap motoring is going to be pushed towards a small hatchback, cars with big lumbering V8's may be reliable but they aren't an ERE solution.

That's not to say people don't buy big cars here, cars sizes have been increasing over time but that comes with a cost.

[mir]

I drive a Honda HR-V 1999 and I can find only a few videos for this car, there are no manuals expect for the original which I found as a pdf but it is too complicated for me. If I am to buy a car I would choose one with lots of information for the same model. I researched and saved Youtube channels but I feel I should start from the basics. That said at least I managed to change my headlight bulb, recharge my battery (after managing to unscrew a rusty bolt), learned how to check the battery, although after I changed it with a new one I don't have to do it and I tried to repair a windshield crack(I am not sure how good of a job it was.)
Does anyone know which CRV corresponds to HR-V 1999, I think HRVs and CRVs are similar.

[loutfard]

I have a feeling the maths around what car to run is completely different in Europe because of high fuel costs, road taxes, insurance costs and low emission zones.

It's even completely different depending on the member state.

We've just bought a car for the first time ever, a 2009 euro 4 diesel Peugeot 308. The plan is to use it at the summer house and share it with friends who live near the airport when we don't need it. No emission zones there, low taxes, ridiculously cheap insurance and a few trustworthy cheap mechanics.

I'd not even think of using this car in Belgium. Emissions zones prohibit its use it in the three main cities. Any maintenance would be horribly expensive. The same holds for road tax and insurance. We just have a subsidised car sharing subscription here and always drive electric.

Chances are an electric car will be a feasible option at the summer house in a few years too...

[Sclass]

Huh, I got stuck in a family reunion all weekend and missed all the fun here.

Great tips here. I do not recommend my diesel Mercedes cars here ever. They are a hobby that fits me quite well. The fixes I sometimes show demonstrate repairs that can be done at home to save money on any car though.

That said I don’t talk much about my two Hondas. A 2012 Accord and a 2008 Civic. These are amazing machines. They don’t break. Made with high quality components. They don’t have rare parts. I think they’re inexpensive and disposable appliances but I guess we are operating across huge dynamic ranges on ERE. If you want to scale down yeah, like Ego says, you’re already there with the FIT. I think you don’t need a cheaper disposable car, you need some bravery and willingness to gamble with your FIT. Which you have with the battery terminal.

I don’t know if an older car would be better. I shock my relatives when I drive my 40 yo Mercedes cross state to reunions. But this is kind of my party trick. It isn’t for everyone. Underneath nobody knows the car is basically new. I’ve spoken about the philosophy before - find a known car that people have driven and repaired forever that has a good community. Find all the potential problem areas on the car and preemptively repair them. Re engineer when necessary. If a machine is well manufactured it will fail in a predictable way like its older brethren. You nail those bugaboos and you have a solid plant.

If you want to learn mechanics I suggest getting a lawnmower on the side of the road on garbage day and making it run. A scooter or single cylinder motorcycle is also good.

Home repair can be expensive. But my philosophy has always been to balance the investment of tools against the repair bill. Buying tools always wins. I have a lot of tools after forty years of thinking this way. If you count your free time hobby hours as free against $150/hr shop rate you can purchase tools as you go that will last forever because you only use them occasionally.

Here is a recent example: My friend’s AC stopped getting cold lately. He said he wanted to try things my way and acquire tools and know how. I used a $20 Halide detector from Amazon to find the leak. We pulled the hose and crimped a new $20 fitting on it with a $65 Vevor crimper from Aliexpress. We vacuumed and filled the system with Autozone’s free tool rental vacuum pump and manifold set ($0). I don’t think we could have had this issue professionally repaired for < $150. We now have a pile of tools. It’s an investment because now he’ll be able to do it again on his girlfriend’s car. Or you can have all the beer you want from friends bringing broken vehicles and six packs as the weather warms up.

The downside is I have a garage filled with tools. Storage is my big expense. We live in the golden age of Chinese tools. They’re lower quality but they’re more than substantial. And they’re dirt cheap. It used to be a joke to buy Chinesium from Harbor Freight but now the tools have improved significantly. Tools are investment. Chinese tools have just raised the ROI.

My take is the missing ingredient is confidence. As for the car I like beater Hondas and Toyotas because they’re made with decent components and the engineering is usually done well. You don’t want to be fixing some dumb engineer’s mistakes. You want to repair worn out parts that fail on schedule. The problem with my accord and civic is they don’t break enough to actually teach you much. Brakes, batteries, oil and tires. That’s it.

You can get a cheap Corolla, Camry, civic, or accord by finding one on Craigslist with peeling paint. The clearcoats are junk and the cars look like trash but they are cheap reliable beaters to play with and keep parked on the street in front of your next door neighbors home. Keep your nice car nice in the garage and save it for those instances when you need a car that works and looks good at the same time. I know, this is expenditure which is sin in ERE but it is also tuition. Car repair is such a ripoff so some know how pays off fast.

We all have different ways of dealing with the car game. It really depends on what you want out of it.

I have five cars and two licensed drivers. But my cars in sum total are cheaper than a new FIT. I only insure 3 at a time.

Go to the Honda Forums. Find the predictable failures on the FIT. Read about the repairs and preemptively fix them at your leisure. All the Honda geeks have worn out multiple FITs and can tell you what you need to change out early or upgrade for reliability. Buy Harbor Freight
Tools, or Aliexpress. They are cheap and good enough to do the job at home. Half of my toolset is cheap Chinese stuff. It works and the ROI is high.

[ffj]

I spent four hours yesterday replacing a headlight assembly on a Honda Accord because my daughter took out a deer. She's fine, the deer not so much. I had to remove the battery, the air box, the black box, the front bumper cover and unclip various wiring harnesses to access the mounting bolts. I installed new bulbs (four) after straightening out some slightly bent metal and then reinstalled everything. Now she has a glistening new headlight assembly on her drivers side and a dull lens cover on her other side, haha. I did buy the set but my enthusiasm for the project went away after the initial repair. Another day for the other side.

This was not fun. And whoever designed these stupid plastic one time use push button fasteners should be shot because replacements are extremely expensive for what consists of basically tiny pieces of plastic. But if I had taken this to a shop labor alone would have been hundreds of dollars not including marked up replacement parts. It pays to know how to fix things even if you hate it.

[Lemur]

2000-2010 Toyota Corollas & Honda Civics.
For trucks, F-150s or Toyota Hilux.

[Sclass]

Those are good vehicles but there are some years in there that have issues. Some of the 4 cyl Toyotas have oil consumption problems that can rear their ugly heads as used cars. The early 2000s civics have a few years with poorly designed head gaskets that blow. A few years of F150s have poorly designed spark plug threads that blow out or strip. Do your research to find the good ones in the group.

These are all fixable problems for diy mechanics. But they are not beginner projects.

[maskedslug]

Maybe a weird take, but a 2nd gen Toyota Prius is a pretty decent compromise, I think. Certainly, they're more complex than an equivalent 100% IC car, but the popularity of them means there's a ton of info online. I've always been able to pretty easily find a Youtube video showing exactly how to fix whatever rare issue crops up on mine. And, like Hondas, Toyotas are generally designed really well for being accessible and easy to work on.

Plus, you get ~50mpg for easy road trips, top-tier reliability, the practicality of a hatchback, and they can be had for dirt cheap. Got my '08 a few years back for $3k.

[Ego]

Maybe a weird take, but a 2nd gen Toyota Prius is a pretty decent compromise,

Around these parts, that gen Prius is a magnet for catalytic converter theft. Unfortunate because many of them would likely still be on the road otherwise. For a while, the cost to replace the cc was more than the value of the car.

[Oey]

I'm going to say something bitchy here. If you want a ICE car, please duct the exhaust through the cabin air vents. Then you will know what I have to deal with walking along a busy road that is polluted with exhaust from vehicles. there's also the pollution of rubber particles that are killing fish stocks. etc. etc.

there's a romantic side to car affliction that is deeply cultural, I admit. Why not get a car you like and use it as a greenhouse? Plant your tomatoes, potatoes....but don't drive it.

thanks and have a great day before the apocalypse.

[Sclass]

The Prius gen2 looks like a very robust car. The failure modes are well understood and manageable.

They are getting old and you have to look hard to find ones that aren’t consumed.

The catalyst issue is interesting. I think that it is not as hot now since the price of the catalytic metals has plummeted recently. However yes, Gen 2 is the favorite of cat thieves.

I was thinking of turning this problem upside down a few years ago. You could get these cars dirt cheap in CA if they were missing the cat because they won’t pass smog. The smog check techs here check the serial numbers on the cat and make sure it is OEM Toyota. These are often out of stock or expensive. It was tempting to buy one. Buy an OEM cat. Install it (it takes a few minutes) and test the car then remove it and straight pipe the car. Drive a year and repeat. No catalyst to steal. I’d store it in my garage.

But why go through all that trouble. I just drive a 1980s Mercedes diesel and skip the emissions check altogether. No swapping exhaust systems every two years to pass emissions.

Then there was another Gen 2 prius idea that popped in my head. Why not just buy a catalytic converter and rent it out to people who need to pass smog but only have a non compliant (Chinese import) catalyst? I install it in 15 min, charge a hefty deposit and rent. Take it out after their smog check. Then I can benefit from this asymmetry without having to drive a Prius. But I can still buy fuel for my Mercedes.

It all seemed like too much trouble. I have a tendency to park my vehicles a long time so a Prius would not be appropriate. I heard Gen 2 Priuses need to be regularly driven because their 12v battery drains out fast without regular use.

Cool cars though. Maybe learning about hybrid drives is a good skill to pick up.

[jennypenny]

In Pennsylvania, if a car has low annual mileage (under 5000/year), an emissions test isn't required to pass inspection. That might factor into which car to purchase if, like jacob, the mileage might be under that threshold. Also, some states only require inspection upon purchase, so maintenance and emissions are less of a factor in keeping it roadworthy.

I heard Gen 2 Priuses need to be regularly driven because their 12v battery drains out fast without regular use.

This is very true with DD's 2006 Highlander hybrid, otherwise it's a stellar vehicle. She's never attempted to fix anything wrt the engine besides the battery (never needed to), but everything else on that car is an easy DIY.

[Sclass]

Yeah I hear Washington state has no smog check. My friends there drive their beat up cars around with Check Engine lights lit. Some friends in LA register their custom cars there to evade emissions requirements. IIRC They have some kind of crazy system where they take the car to WA and get tags, then they come home to Los Angeles and renew over the internet…WA address no longer needed. These guys have wild Mercedes custom cars like a 2010 S550 with a turbodiesel diesel engine salvaged from a FedEx truck. Highly illegal in CA but they sidestep it with WA tags.

Some states have safety checks that bust you for rust.

The car problem can be cracked in many ways. There are many knobs to adjust. A lot depends on how much grease you want under your nails and also local laws. In CA we have very strict smog laws. I think that’s why I dabbled in diesel in the first place. Smog exempt here for models pre 1997.