ADHD meds

[Ego]

Introspection is essentially the mind using its CPU cycles to reflect back on itself for extra insight. This is a positive (here meaning "more of the same"... like compound interest) feedback loop. Two ways this could go. If done well, this will lead to additional insight and more insight into yourself and your relation to other people and all the combinations that obtain. If done poorly, it will create a biased feedback loop that rapidly goes down a neurotic rabbit hole of anxiety and conspiracies where the ego of the brain becomes its own echo chamber.

@jacob, while most people do not spend much time on introspection, those who do seem to spend a great deal of time and energy on it. In my world, those in the extreme category frequently find ways to work it into conversations. Add to that the fact that therapy-speak has permeated our culture, songs, movies, classrooms,....

Yet we are more troubled than ever. Which leads me to believe that we are either doing too much of it, or we are doing it wrong, or both.

I lean toward believing it is both.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/what-self-aware ... ltivate-it

In one study, psychologists J. Gregory Hixon and William Swann gave a group of undergraduates negative feedback on a test of their “sociability, likability and interest­ingness.” Some were given time to think about why they were the kind of person they were, while others were asked to think about what kind of person they were. When the researchers had them evaluate the accuracy of the feedback, the “why” students spent their energy rationalizing and denying what they’d learned, and the “what” students were more open to this new information and how they might learn from it. Hixon and Swann’s rather bold conclusion was that “Thinking about why one is the way one is may be no better than not thinking about one’s self at all.”

[scottindenver]

@jacob, while most people do not spend much time on introspection, those who do seem to spend a great deal of time and energy on it. In my world, those in the extreme category frequently find ways to work it into conversations. Add to that the fact that therapy-speak has permeated our culture, songs, movies, classrooms,....

Yet we are more troubled than ever. Which leads me to believe that we are either doing too much of it, or we are doing it wrong, or both.

I lean toward believing it is both.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/what-self-aware ... ltivate-it

One thing I might add is American culture seems to elevate the individual’s needs and desires above all. I think it has gone too far though in that collective identity and action and community in general has been almost obliterated. Others have noted the destructive effects of individualism such as Robert Putnam with his book Bowling Alone. The schools don’t help unfortunately since everything is individual work and accomplishments are almost always recognized at level of individual.

A friend of mine told me a story that Western business managers struggled for years in certain East Asian countries. They would fire a poor performer and then come in next day to find everyone related to him had quit and even extended relatives had quit and that was common for large family networks to all work at same company. The manager would just be shocked and completely not understand at all.

[jacob]

@jacob, while most people do not spend much time on introspection, those who do seem to spend a great deal of time and energy on it. In my world, those in the extreme category frequently find ways to work it into conversations. Add to that the fact that therapy-speak has permeated our culture, songs, movies, classrooms,....

Yet we are more troubled than ever. Which leads me to believe that we are either doing too much of it, or we are doing it wrong, or both.

I lean toward believing it is both.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/what-self-aware ... ltivate-it

One size doesn't fit all, right?

Those who spend a lot of time on [any subject] tend to be loud about it and work it into conversations as it forms their world view.

An alternative hypothesis for why we're more troubled than ever, would be that most people lack frameworks for introspection(*). [After all, such frameworks are not taught and thus remain unknown-knowns for the average person.] This leaves people unable to explain why they're getting negative feedback (as per the setup) and so naturally they would be better off getting suggestions to try something different.

(*) The fact that postmodernism consider frameworks arbitrary if not oppressive isn't exactly helping.

Fundamentally, since [our] culture hides "doctrine", the focus turns towards "skills". For example, "how to be more assertive at meetings"/"how to be more inclusive at meetings" vis-a-vis "why is assertiveness/inclusiveness important to meetings in the first place".

There's this whole what-who-where-when-why chain of figuring things out. Out of the five, "why" tends to dig the deepest. Of course, "why" is immaterial, if the reason is random (in which case it's still good to know that there is no reason). Often, though, understanding the underlying mechanics makes all the difference. However, independently figuring that mechanics out independent takes an Adler, a Freud, or a Briggs ... it's not something people ever figure out on their own.

Note: I might be completely off tangent, since the hbr link only showed me summary and the first paragraph.

[jennypenny]

@Scott -- Thanks for taking to time to share your experience, especially since some of the information posted by others was not even wrong.

[AnalyticalEngine]

It's worth noting that there are different types of "thinking," and not all of them are associated with mental distress. It's not introspection, it's rumination, although these can be closely related.

I'm going to talk about depression here because I have personal experience with it, but this applies to other forms of overthinking as well. Depression is associated with heightened activity in the default mode network of the brain, which is the part of the brain responsible for both self-awareness and problem solving. This is why certain medications that reduce activity in the DMN, such as ketamine, have been shown to reduce depression, because a key part of the presentation of the illness is over-activity in this region of the brain.

However, it's not DMN activation/thinking per say that's the problem. Saying introspection alone is the problem is like saying fever is the problem with the flu while ignoring the flu virus. The problem is that this type of thinking (rumination) specifically involves being stuck in an entirely incorrect and negative model of the world and being unable to get out of it. So you end up overthinking every single thing wrong with your life but the way you're thinking about it is to catastrophize the problem, get stuck in black and white interpretations of the world, etc. And the thing to remember about depression is this type of thinking just happens on its own because over-activation of the DMN is both genetic and triggered by environmental factors. Then once you're stuck in a wrong model of the world, it's very hard to get out because it starts to color your entire experience of reality.

Now note, one of the treatments for depression is CBT, which is a type of introspection because you become aware of your thoughts and then manually deconstruct how they aren't true. It's an important skill to become aware of the fact that everything you think isn't true, and it's a skill that requires mindfulness/introspection. So becoming aware of your thoughts and having the ability to let the negative/untrue ones go is the treatment, while getting stuck in ruminative patterns is the problem.

It's also possible to reduce thinking with unhealthy means, like drinking, workaholism, constant stimulation, sleep deprivation, etc, but of course these don't help depression long term because they aren't deconstructing the incorrect world view, only suppressing the symptoms.

[Ego]

@AE, Excellent post. The one thing I will add, which is my point above, is that the last acceptable subject for the ruminator to ruminate is introspection itself. Ones own mental health can become the ultimate, unending game occupying the ruminating mind.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@Ego - The biggest issue I've seen with it is that it's really easy to start to identify with your own thoughts or make the depression/mental health issues a life narrative/identity because they consume so much of your subjective experience when you're stuck inside a depressive episode. These sorts of mental health issues tend to be chronic, so you have to learn to manage them, but it's easy to turn anything that occupies that much of your life/headspace into an identity.

Of course, the issue is that we like to feed into our identities/life narratives, so if you have a negative identity (ie, "I am a depressive," "I am mentally ill"), it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it becomes much harder to let go of that subjective experience because you've defined your life by it. On the other hand, the problem is not going to go away if ignored either, so it requires a balance of recognizing and responding to the problem but not getting stuck there. Because as @Scott 2 says, untreated mental health issues turn into experiential avoidance, which compounds over years into a massively limiting life strategy.

This is again where something like introspection can actually be useful if you're using it for mindfulness. That is, becoming aware of what story about yourself you're telling yourself and being willing to let that self-definition go. Or recognizing that you're stuck ruminating or catastrophizng and then pulling yourself out of it. The problem is really more of an ego attachment or self-definition problem where one doesn't want to let go of the negative life story because pretty much no one likes their self-definition challenged.

[jacob]

This is again where something like introspection can actually be useful if you're using it for mindfulness. That is, becoming aware of what story about yourself you're telling yourself and being willing to let that self-definition go. Or recognizing that you're stuck ruminating or catastrophizng and then pulling yourself out of it. The problem is really more of an ego attachment or self-definition problem where one doesn't want to let go of the negative life story because pretty much no one likes their self-definition challenged.

I'd like to zoom out for completeness. (Basically just adding/repeating/reframing what you said)

Another situation (call it Kegan3) is when someone start identifying with what other people think about them vis-a-vis what they think/know about themself. In this case, people take their cue from their social environment trying to conform to what that environment determines or says is the right way to be. Lacking introspection, they go along with it trying to fit in, except that strategy just doesn't work out very well. They try so hard to be someone they're not. The fundamental problem is that they don't know who they actually are. When failing to conform, they conclude there's something wrong with them.

Introspection is mainly about zooming out. Rumination, in contrast, is staying stuck in the loop whether internally or as part of family/friends/society telling you what you're supposed to be like. FWIW, social groups and cultures can remain stuck in a loop as well, and it generally takes much longer to break such loops. Decades, generations, paradigms,... A lot of Kegan3 socialization is about reminiscing and reaffirming the collective identity. Great for the individuals who match the normative average. An eternal source of frustration for those who don't.

There's a Danish proverb that I like. "I de gales dal er det de gale, der er de normale". I don't know if there's an English equivalent(???), but it translates into "In the valley of the crazy, the crazy are the normal ones".

Ultimately, I think AQAL provides a solid anchor point!

People can be intersubjectively different. In fact, they are, and I think they should be allowed to be so. The predominant intersubjective group is not necessarily the "only right" one just because it's the majority. What matters is whether one's subjective beliefs make it possible to function in objective and interobjective reality. If yes, you're good even if you're weird. You just gotta find your tribe. OTOH, if one's subjective or intersubjective models don't work in [inter]objective reality, it results in real material/consequential problems. The map doesn't match the territory. The map is broken. Navigation fails. People failing to file taxes, thinking that stop signs are optional, thinking that it's possible to make a living by studying "art history"... and so on.

The pathological model essentially reveals its structurally broken framework by needing to include a "high-functioning" qualifier. High-functioning means having found a way to compensate for the lack of fit with the neurotypical norm while at the same time retaining the advantages of the "condition". All that's needed here to to shift focus and focus on their particular talents. If, for example, you have "high functioning ADHD" (surprise, surprise, it's a thing!), you'll likely lead a very interesting life.

[7Wannabe5]

If, for example, you have "high functioning ADHD" (surprise, surprise, it's a thing!), you'll likely lead a very interesting life.

Yes, my youngest sister is high-functioning (in the sense of graduated from top law school with honors) sometimes medicated ADHD. She is also ENTp, so she has my lack of toleration for boredom multiplied by a factor of 10 and much more physically/assertively manifested. She used to sit on the front lawn when she was a child and make conversation with anybody passing, and she likely burns 1000kcals/day in fidgeting/pacing. Her husband is an INTJ and I'm afraid she has just about worn him out. However, she has had a pretty interesting life in the sense of "made out with member of Bikini Kill" or "temporarily lost in Costa Rican jungle" or "paid to write/direct beer commercial while still in college."

[AnalyticalEngine]

@Jacob - What you're describing sounds like Mindscape Theory:

Mindscape Theory proposes that various types of personality characteristics (Mindscape types) are present in all cultures, and these are not the exclusive domain of a particular culture. Cultural differences (national stereotypes) are due to the case that one type becomes dominant and marginalizes all other types.
...
For various reasons, some types, however, become dominant and extend their control and influence over other types. The nondominant types find it necessary to accept domination. Personal benefits, convenience, and expedience compel the nondominant type individuals to transform, hide, or camouflage their true types in favor of the dominant type. To survive and to fit into the society, they develop various strategies that could include avoiding the mainstream dominant type, finding a niche, disguising one’s type, and switching back and forth in private and public life. Some cases are reversible repressions, reformers, rebels, or troublemakers. Some other cases are drop-outs or emigrants

[7Wannabe5]

@AE:

Yes, and the dominant types in Modern Culture would be towards ENTJ and ESTJ. My strategy for dealing with the dominant types is to take mild-mannered advantage of the increased vasopressin levels they experience with age. Related tactics include "simple physical proximity", "signaling of appreciation", "strict boundarying of respect signaling and/or hierarchy position", and "exclusive contract avoidance."

[Scott 2]

What matters is whether one's subjective beliefs make it possible to function in objective and interobjective reality. If yes, you're good even if you're weird.
...
The pathological model essentially reveals its structurally broken framework by needing to include a "high-functioning" qualifier.

I think you're painting an overly rosy picture of what functioning might look like. Here's an example:


I took my car into the dealer Tuesday, for an oil change. Wednesday the tire pressure warning came on. When the dealer called to ask feedback, I placed blame but rejected the offer of help. Going back was too disruptive to my routine.

I then proceeded to either delay or forget to deal with the warning until Saturday. When my wife noticed a tire looked low. I immediately tried to drop everything, to deal with it in the grocery store parking lot. Despite heat baking our frozen food on the blacktop.

My wife redirected me to wait until we got home. At which point I again delayed / forgot until 9pm. It took me 2 minutes to confirm the tire was 20lbs low. A mere 30 minutes to confirm rate of leak, top everything off, check other tires, etc.

But then I went inside, upset the leaky tire would upend the cascade of events planned for next week. Cue 2 hours of iterating plans and trade offs, especially disruptive because the dealer is closed on Sundays. Including ideas like "we should get rid of the car, because I hate this." Followed by losing an hour or two of sleep on both ends, because I'm upset.

All this to wander into my new Costco membership at noon Sunday, having the tire repaired an hour later, for $12. And find other savings where I immediately come out ahead - both financially and in time saved shopping. Oh and the dealer I was blaming? Well they probably didn't put a nail into my tire, which was the problem.


So - functioning? Yeah. Thriving? Nah. Despite my successes in life, those patterns suck.

At least now, I am actively observing them. I can pick out what is happening and why. The potentially damning part - I dunno if I get to change. If not, knowing might be worse. Part of why I felt so upset.


And I've got it relatively easy. While masking this is a burden, it's also a privilege. In the spirit of exploration, I attended a neurodivergent meetup yesterday. There's levels to the weird. Intersectionality creates extremely difficult problems.

One man I spoke to was upset, because the government is clawing back his SSI. Despite only having capacity for intermittent janitorial work. He likely remains well within the window of need, but simply failed at bureaucracy.

Dude's about to celebrate his 40th birthday, and he's hoping for a couple PS5 games. Is he functioning? I mean, he made it to 40. He's friendly and caring. People like him. But his life is hard.

As much as I want to deride the pathological model, it exists for very good reasons. Even managed, the deficits are a burden.

[jacob]

@Scott2 - Fair enough, but... . That's basically an "easy problem" turned into a hard problem due to domain-level ignorance, no? To wit, my car problem initially seemed unsurmountable yet it ultimately turned out to be easy. The average car enthusiast would probably have gotten the point right away.

So ... knowing how to deal with such things already/figure it out before things break----> high functioning. Whereas not knowing already/getting behind the curve----> low functioning. The latter leads to high stress, etc. Where I'm getting with this is that this is actually the default life-mode of the average person---being behind the curve, but being comforted by how everybody around them is also behind the curve/somehow "never getting aherad". The main reason they don't stress out about is that they don't really have time to care. Instead, they live in a constant mode of reaction and blaming the outgroup instead. Pathology-framework for the misfits of the middle class. Acting out-framework for the misfits of the underclass.

[Scott 2]

Your problem is a little different, in that starting required facing novelty. Learning. Experimentation.

The tools were literally in my car. The diagnostic steps - previously documented, for my car, on my phone.

The fact that I didn't? I had reasons. I assumed the mechanic simply didn't reset the tire pressure sensor. Zoom out though, my actions did not work well.

Maybe I'm giving the average person too much credit. That could be our primary disconnect. But I think they'd immediately check air pressure. Or pull into a shop. Instead of creating days of disruption.


Funny to look back. We replaced our last car, because I got mad. A faulty light drained the battery. Needing a jump upset me, so I eliminated the entire vehicle! From that perspective, maybe I've already grown.

[7Wannabe5]

Semi-interesting cultural note. Apparently, it is now deemed appropriate by those in the sub-culture most likely to wish you a "blessed day" to use the term "lifted" rather than "gifted", "competent", or "knowledgeable." I was asked if I was willing to take on a Finance student, because I am the only tutor "lifted" enough to handle the topic. I kind of like the term and may appropriate, because it could also communicate the post-agency field perspective.