4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
Riggerjack
Posts: 3191
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: 4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

Post by Riggerjack »

IOW, just constructing the list/boundary of what the needful "chores" might be is towards Top-Down.
It is top down if you approach it from top down. If constructing the list consists of "customers buying the service provided for the price bid", it instantly goes P2P.

Mature adults can eat what they choose, and have sex with who they choose, or restrict themselves, as they choose. They can cooperate, compete, and communicate.

What term would you like to use for those who can't meet the above standards of mature adult? They exist, in plentitude. Let's call these people the general public.

One could create a set of rules to reduce the harm the general public inflicts one the environment one is creating. There are lots of these rules in existence already. One could choose from many existing rulesets.

Or, one could create an environment that attracts mature adults, and over time filters out the general public. This environment would encourage adult-adult interfaces, and discourage parent-child interfaces (using the child-parent-adult model of transactional analysis).

What are these rules? I don't know. I expect they are chosen by the people I team up with. I'm not looking for followers to follow a path I blaze. I'm looking for cocreators who want to live in a world of their own choices, prepared to change the rules they live by to tune for best results, as judged by themselves. Those people are not the general public.

If you are drawing membership from this group or similar, one of the first issues to resolve would be whether the meal and food production plans/design would be towards vegetarian or meat-eater.
Well, again, we disagree on where to start. How much food prep is communal seems to come first. Mrs riggerjack is looking forward to a commercial kitchen for group meals and food preservation. I'm looking forward to a coordination system with a pricing/bidding system where preferences can be expressed in finer detail than vegetarian/carnivore.
Some people are good about not pissing where they drink and/or creating unnecessary drama. Others not so much.
Agreed. I am not as good at this as I would prefer. I would hope that when I created unnecessary drama, others would cut me some slack, and allow me to make amends. Developing the means of correction is a task appropriate to a group of mature adults with a goal to achieve.

So before making the rules, comes forming the group of people willing to define the rules they would choose to live under.

daylen
Posts: 2544
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: 4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

Post by daylen »

Sounds like you're trying to keep a top spinning on a boat in a hurricane. Hard to isolate from the general public, juvenile energy, and human lineage continuation.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3191
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: 4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

Post by Riggerjack »

The co-op model with which I am familiar is that there is a buy-in financial share purchase for each member, a monthly maintenance fee for each member, and a required weekly/monthly/annual work contribution from each member.
I don't know if a co-op is the right structure. But there are far more advanced capitalization options available:
https://jrwiener.com/cooperative-equity ... -together/

His blog is full of various co-op related financialization information.

But I don't know if a co-op is the right structure. In my mind, that would be a decision made by a group that does not yet exist, based on their needs and information provided by experts.* I'm not even confident that I could sketch out the full range of business/corporate/charitable structures, let alone identify the possible synergies each could bring.

What I want, is something like a checklist of all the decisions needed to take a mod from something in my head, to an occupied reality. Each checklist item then needs to be examined to find the full range of options. Taking a step back from each decision, to really look at all the options is a good way to look for synergies.

From this, a form of "formation flow chart" can be created, a recipe for making a skunkworks for Adam's tech base is developed**. A map of all the decisions, along with a summary of the reasons we made those choices.

So that when the next project starts, (let's say a music mod, based on the theme of pirate captaincy, rather than eco skunkworks) the full range of options is already mapped out. A blazed path through those options also exists.

When the pirate captain mod gets started, they have a working mod and the recipe used to make it, to use as a guideline. But the priorities of pirate captaincy are very different from the priorities of an eco skunkworks. Having all the options already laid out allows for easy modification of the formation recipe.

Having both an eco skunkworks and a pirate captaincy gives us the means to compare/contrast. To better understand the secondary/tertiary effects of these formation decisions, as each mod grows.
Sounds like you're trying to keep a top spinning on a boat in a hurricane.
I see oceans, hurricanes, boats, and people spinning tops. I imagine, if I looked long enough, I could find what you describe, but it's hardly typical.

Consider Ebay. Millions upon millions of transactions, all over the world. Who coordinates all that activity? Nobody. Software provides an interface for self interested parties to interact for mutual self interest. Craigslist allows P2P activities of far greater variety, still without a coordinator. These are decades old technologies.***

People are capable of amazing things, given the right opportunities, in a format they can use.

I have talked in detail about property development. Property development is an entire industry, currently. What will it be like when it's a P2P platform? If one were interested in building that platform, wouldn't mod recipes be the exact information one would want to streamline?
Hard to isolate from the general public, juvenile energy, and human lineage continuation.
Well, no. In rural areas, isolation is the default. ;)

So change your mindset from exclusion to attraction. To creating a scenius, or rather, many.

I want to attract people who can help me. I want people who will volunteer, I don't want employees. I want people capable of acting in their own enlightened sense of self interest. I want those people to be encouraged by their social network, who see this new environment as worthy work.

Toward this end I have tried to describe an attractive environment, an alt-building club. I expect the people attracted to this idea to have their own ideas about exclusion. And they will get a chance to practice them when deciding who is "on the team", in which capacities. Again, when forming a camping club. And yet again, as the project grows.

https://www.headspace.com/mindfulness/t ... ty-mindset

In one way I'm trying to describe creating a community around a local, created abundance. How to import the capital to make effective use of natural resources and locally produce goods that would otherwise be imported. How to turn these resources back into financial capital. Creating the infrastructure of local abundances.

The rules needed by such people, in such a place, are very different from the rules we have developed anywhere else, and this is part of the attraction.

As I said in the Covid IQ loss thread, I think we have far more high IQ people than we have need for.

As shown in the stereotypes (130+ coo-coo bananas, etc), I don't think my culture is very compatible with high IQ. The differential between challenges and rewards is often crippling. The farther one diverges from mean, the more resources it often takes to keep functional.

To me, this signals opportunity. There are a lot of high IQ, poorly networked people out there floating around, dissatisfied with the environment they are in.

I would think the opportunity to design their future environment from the ground up, would attract such people. The challenge of creating a culture where they could maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses requires the broadest palette possible.

I think there is an abundance of high Kegan level people (who are probably more networked) who would like to pursue the same goal, from a distance, perhaps from their armchairs...

Whatever your measurement, there are some far more advanced than others. I want the rules to attract these advanced people (and/or those with the capability of advancement), with enough compromise to avoid offending their significant others. An environment with enough challenges/opportunities to go around/not merely the central challenge.

What rules allow maximum contribution from both those on-site, and off-site? Those rules will have to be worked out, and then modified many times, I think.****














* Though once again, I will point out that I'm bringing this up on a forum with several lawyers. This expertise is available here, if any are interested.

**Because an eco skunkworks is what I want. I want to live amongst people actively developing and dispersing Adam's tech base. I leave much open, to leave room for their preferences. I am confident that the rules we choose to govern ourselves, would be better than any rules I could choose, to govern them.

*** look at the severely restricted amount of data used per transaction in these platforms. Like we're still in the 90's with lightning fast 14.4k modems... :roll:

**** This rules recipe also seems like it would be useful for the creation of a P2P property development platform...

daylen
Posts: 2544
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: 4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

Post by daylen »

Look at it like the mixing of fluids. A subcultural attractor/repulsor forms a pipeline to general culture across which mixing can occur. Over years, decades, lifetimes.. subcultures have a difficult time retaining their identity unless they are big enough to internally regulate lineage continuation. Not saying it is impossible and current technology definitely helps but this is not an easy project by any means. Which makes it interesting!

Kids are the future so attracting them and keeping them around to help continue subcultural projects may be good idea. Plus they can help loosen up subcultures a bit making them more dynamic and adaptable.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9456
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: 4th, 5th, 6th Person Perspective

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Riggerjack wrote: Craigslist allows P2P activities of far greater variety, still without a coordinator. These are decades old technologies.***
One of the founders of Craigslist (an INTJ, close to doppelganger of Jacob) was one of the co-presidents of the co-op I lived in. He was one of the older members of the co-op, and I remember having a conversation with him one day in which he told me he wasn't going to move out of the co-op until he could find an apartment on the physical apartment posting boards which was renting for less than (insert extremely low price for apartment for era/location.) Therefore, the invention of Craigslist was almost entirely in alignment with Jacob's later ERE 21 Day Makeover advice to simply go on Craigslist and set maximum price for apartment to (insert extremely low price for apartment for era/location.)

The other co-president of this co-op was an eNTX who was one of the first kids put on Ritalin for ADHD (later ran his own import/export business.) He hung out in the public areas (including the large darkened room in which Star Trek was somehow broadcast on the TV 24/7) more, so handled more of the social problems than the Jacob-doppelganger. Surprise, surprise, the co-presidents were also the two tallest males who lived in the co-op. He thoroughly annoyed me by chastening for my sexual behavior on one occasion, but I think this was just due to the fact that a friend of his whom I briefly dated was talking disrespectfully about me, because he totally failed to perform on the one occasion we attempted sexual interaction, even though I was too kind to tell anybody about his failure to perform :x :roll:

The co-op was located in The Most Educated City in the U.S. and was inhabited by a lot of townies (adult children of academics associated with the university) as well as current students of the university. So, the membership fairly well resembled the membership of this forum, although the co-op membership included more Fine Arts/Humanities types, and fewer Engineer/Tech types. It was a lot of fun. One time a group of females who lived in the co-op organized a Summer Solstice party and we put out a sign on the lawn advertising that we were seeking male virgins, but then we were too wasted on the Scarlett O'Hara cocktail recipe we found in the "Joy of Cooking" to remember what we planned on doing with them.
Riggerjack wrote:What I want, is something like a checklist of all the decisions needed to take a mod from something in my head, to an occupied reality. Each checklist item then needs to be examined to find the full range of options. Taking a step back from each decision, to really look at all the options is a good way to look for synergies.
I may be not grokking something, but this still reads pretty much like the definition of intelligent top-down design/analysis. Since you are interested in modularity, you might want to take a look at "A Pattern Language: Towns, Buildings, Construction." , Alexander. Then, also Hanzi Freinacht, in "The Listening Society" on why "A Pattern Language" and similar plans, such as Illich's "De-Schooling" won't/don't work. Bottom-up design would look more like starting with the Observation principle of Permaculture. In simple terms, going out to the site or interacting with the group of humans to see what resources, patterns, stocks, flows, synergies, etc. already exist. One possible outcome of Bottom-Up Observation could even be the decision that the project is unnecessary or unwarranted.

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