Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

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7Wannabe5
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Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

from "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Dumber" thread:
SClass wrote:I’d love to hear more about this in another thread. You’ve alluded to these ladies before but I had no idea they were professors’ daughters. :D. I recall reading an article by a Silicon Valley C-suite escort. She described “deconstruction” like cracking the code of the stressed out tech executive. Once she learned what they really needed (surprisingly non-sexual) she was overbooked. She retired out early and wrote stories about her work.
Around 15 years ago, right around the time of the big economic crash, I lived in a big, old, rambling Victorian house near a University which was owned by a genius-level eNTP electrical engineer/entrepreneur (whose father was also a Physics professor.) He never even graduated from college because he was recruited by some organization. He could be pretty obnoxious, like most eNTPs ;) , so he once told me that the West Coast guys referred to him as "that genius on the East Coast" (which was a bit odd since he was actually located in the Midwest.) Like most eNTPs, he was also pretty lazy about actually working for money, so he hacked out his house to various other humans under a variety of different contracts. My sister, who was my used book business partner at the time, had previously been his GF for a number of years, and felt semi-guilty about dumping him for her new semi-famous-musician husband, and was worried that he was sinking into depression. I was recently divorced, and both my kids were away at college, so I needed cheap lodging. Therefore, we worked out a deal that I would cook for him and generally make his household seem less cuckoo-bananas and more cheerful (he was a bit worried about some of his more conventional neighbors, and said that I was the one who had to stop them from "coming for him with pitchforks") with my superficial mask of Middle-class Mom normality, and I would only pay $200/month for a large room and office space. Our relationship was strictly platonic, because I have a strong boundary against any guy who has dated one of my sisters. Also, this was right on the verge of my post-divorce delusionally styling myself like Beyonce phase and my post-divorce delusionally styling myself like Kim Cattrall phase, so I was always dating somebody else during the couple of years I lived with him.

The other residents of the house were often changing and frequently overlapped with women with whom he was/wanted to be having sexual relationship. One of the rooms was rented by a woman who had transitioned into being a man, but was in the process of transitioning back to being a woman. I had a few very interesting conversations with her about the up and downsides of testosterone and being a man vs. a woman in our society and also on the topic of the BDSM scene which she was into, since I accidentally* ended up in a 9 month relationship with an overt NYC Dom while I was living there. The longest-term housemate besides me was a GFE escort in her late 20s who was the daughter of a professor at the University. She was also working on her Master's in Political Science and frequently involved in following a Grateful Dead like band with a bunch of gypsy-like friends. Her plan was to save up the money she made from sex work to retire back-on-the-land with some of these friends. So, her thinking was quite in alignment with ERE. She looked much more like "daughter of professor" than stereotypical escort and she obtained most of the limited wardrobe of "fancy" clothing she used for her sex work from thrift stores.

The other GFE who lived in the house for a bit was her good friend, and also the daughter of a former professor who had retired wealthy due to inventing something that makes the internet work. Unfortunately, she was much more about spending than saving her sex work earnings, and was also addicted to some hard drugs. However, she was very intelligent and my genius friend actually ended up marrying her a number of years later, which was pretty much his financial downfall, leading to the fact that he is now living on his social security in a very gritty anarchist co-op near Detroit. Sadly, this woman died very young a few years ago, likely due to combination of drug and aesthetic surgery addictions. Her wealthy parents still own a large compound located near my second permaculture project.

Anyways, I had a lot of interesting conversations with my more ERE-like GFE escort housemate. I was by happenstance reading Bourdieu on the topic of Cultural Capital at this time, so it was pretty clear to me that her "professor's daughter" Cultural Capital was contributing to her overall GFE appeal, although this likely varied a good deal over her collection of quite different clients. Many of her clients were involved in politics, because she also worked out of an upscale hotel in D.C. as well as one in the Detroit area (she did not work out of our house-share!), but they ranged from a very generous train engineer who weighed almost 400 lbs. to an extremely attractive hipster who frequently flew her to Amsterdam, to a very nice guy (she found herself falling a bit too into him) who was too busy running a restaurant and being a single Dad to conventionally date. I was in my mid-40s at the time, but she told me that I could likely get a number of older clients who didn't like being seen in public with women who were too young, if I wanted to make a "career" change**. She definitely agreed that the non-sexual aspects of the work were the most critical. Her take on selling "the pretty" was actually very much in alignment with what David Deida (level Turquoise sex guru) offers as advice in his books aimed at female audience. IOW, the "code" she was specializing in unlocking was basically femininity/submission outside of the bedroom. Other sex workers, particularly those with stressed-out tech clients, are more likely to specialize as Femme Dommes. My sister was good friends with a West Coast Domme who later worked with autistic children, and she said it was basically the same job. It's also towards the same skill-set that gets you great tips as a waitress, if you just sub out food for sex with obvious alterations to behavior/appearance depending on whether diner or upscale clientele.

IMO, the existence of such a profession as Girlfriend Experience Escort is a natural manifestation of end-game Capitalism. If everything's for sale and/or professionalized and given a job title, then, yup, everything will be for sale and/or professionalized and given a job title, inclusive of all the non-sexual aspects of being a girlfriend, because Capital is Capital is Capital, no matter what its initial form.


*It was "accidental", because I had innocently made use of a toybox analogy in my dating profile without realizing the men-take-everything-literally sexual implications.

**I wasn't interested, because I am a just a teensy bit too straight-edge law-abiding, and my physiological repulsion barrier is a bit too high, and my social skills are a bit too low. There's a strict timer on how long I can fake empathetic listening before clearly becoming distracted, and it is against my personal feminist code to fake orgasm.

zbigi
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by zbigi »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:39 pm
IMO, the existence of such a profession as Girlfriend Experience Escort is a natural manifestation of end-game Capitalism. If everything's for sale and/or professionalized and given a job title, then, yup, everything will be for sale and/or professionalized and given a job title, inclusive of all the non-sexual aspects of being a girlfriend, because Capital is Capital is Capital, no matter what its initial form.
I'm not entirely convinced. There was also a large change in norms, where 200 years ago being seen in a public place with a prostitute could end man's public life, whereas now e.g. US presidential candidate is rather open about his use of prostitutes, and it doesn't seem to matter.

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Sclass
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

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@7w wow. That is an interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

I’ll have to try to dig up the articles from the Silicon Valley call girl. My recollection was she was the other end of the spectrum of the dominance femme. She said things like these guys were just a bunch of emotional little boys inside and they needed to feel loved. She’d say they’d start crying about how demanding their boards and wives were. 90% of her job was coddling them, making them feel somebody loved them. It was kinda sick considering I likely worked for one of these idiots. She said she catered to many of the majors in the semiconductor industry.

Once she found their buttons they’d pay out jackpots. It seemed the further away from the orgasm they got the more money. She was on one end of the sex worker spectrum as opposed to a street walker and the magnitude of the payout was proportional to how much more she provided beyond simple sexual release.

Many years ago a friend gave me a book about the vice industry in Japan. Apparently the femme domme was common there among their C-suite. The explanation was these guys felt awful after berating their subordinates all day and they wanted to be put in their place on their downtime. Humiliation was a big part of it. Supposedly it made them feel better. Again, kinda sick.

It’s really fascinating when one human cracks another human’s locks. I saw the religion thing up close and personal but the sex work is quite alien to me. My godfather was the son of a kept mistress*. He tried to break it down for me but I never really understood.

*a paid for prostitute but exclusive to one man. She lived in a brothel with a bunch of other ladies but she was off limits to all but this friend’s dad. I only knew her during her old age but all I can say is she had a way of unsettling my teen self with her gaze. I told my godfather this and he just laughed “Sclass, she still has some of her power.”

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

zbigi wrote:There was also a large change in norms, where 200 years ago being seen in a public place with a prostitute could end man's public life, whereas now e.g. US presidential candidate is rather open about his use of prostitutes, and it doesn't seem to matter.
Two hundred years ago, one of the final four presidential candidates was Henry Clay of Kentucky. He purchased Phoebe Moore, a 16 year old "yellow girl" octaroon from Col. Thomas Benton (Senator, Missouri. She lived with him as his concubine and social companion while he was in residence in Washington, D.C. White women could not be fully owned as concubines, but they had extremely limited rights of property ownership, inclusive of the personal. So, yes, there has been a large change in norms.

One of the issues addressed in "Erotic Capital" is the fact that on some level laws forbidding Sex Work limit women's rights of ownership over their own bodies. This is a very divisive issue in Feminism.
Sclass wrote:My recollection was she was the other end of the spectrum of the dominance femme. She said things like these guys were just a bunch of emotional little boys inside and they needed to feel loved. She’d say they’d start crying about how demanding their boards and wives were. 90% of her job was coddling them, making them feel somebody loved them...and the magnitude of the payout was proportional to how much more she provided beyond simple sexual release.
..
So, she was mainly providing Adult Feminine/Big Sister/Wife-Mixing-the-Martini/Emotionally-Supportive energy to her clients. It's very common for men to bring their needs for emotional support to any handy Good Woman, if they don't have a therapist or know of a kindly bartender. That's why I joke about offering therapy services in exchange for free Thai when I date men who are too recently divorced. The Good Woman role (upper left quadrant) definitely earns a higher payout than the Bad Girl role (lower right quadrant), especially in a context where the expectation is that you are the one who is going to provide the "energy shifts" necessary to transition the client from crying/bitching to you to confidently f*cking you.

The Bad Girl energy in the lower right quadrant is actually the Juvenile Masculine energy, because in both men and women sexual desire is mediated by testosterone/excitement. If/when a man is in his own dysfunctional Juvenile Feminine (crying/bitching) mode, it is highly unlikely that he will be receptive to a woman in Bad Girl energy. Her Juvenile Masculine will feel like more competition/demands being placed upon him. So, the transition the Sex Worker would have to manifest would be from highly functional Adult Feminine/Good Woman to highly functional Juvenile Feminine/Good Girl to highly functional Juvenile Masculine/Bad Girl if the session is to end with a successful sexual encounter. This is not easy, and might be impossible, depending on how sunk in dysfunctional Juvenile Feminine the client has allowed himself to become.

For example, let's say I am out to dinner with a recently divorced guy, who is emotionally upset like many humans are shortly after a divorce, but not in need of years of therapy otherwise. While I attempt to enjoy my Thai food, he tells me all about his problems, and because I have a kind face in repose, I give the appearance of being an empathetic listener. If, beyond the bitching in the moment, I judge him to be otherwise quite attractive, I might choose to attempt a functional move into the Juvenile Feminine. For example, I might exhibit "appreciation" by giving him a kiss on the cheek and sincerely thanking him for buying me dinner as we exit the restaurant. If he is somebody who is generally reasonably functional in his Adult Masculine energy, a small move like that might be enough to shift the ship. Generally, because I am not a paid professional, I would choose to not mess around at all with too-recently-divorced guy. because way too much work vs. likely pay-off in pleasure.

Another example of what I mean is that a lot of hip-hop lyrics sung by females are very much in challenging Bad Girl energy, "Can you keep up, Baby Boy, make me lose my breath, bring the noise..." Men who are depressed/anxious/stressed-out can't handle that kind of taunting challenge, and worst-case scenario, it could even be physically dangerous for a woman to offer it. One of the reasons why women prefer men who convey easy-confidence is that it is actually safer (as well as more fun) to interact with a sexually confident man. I consider myself lucky because almost all of the men/boys (28 over 44 years according to my recent tally) with whom I have sexually interacted have been confident Service Tops (a human who most frequently prefers to be in charge of the action, but with primary goal of providing pleasure to partner.)

That said, I don't think I would describe any sexual interaction betweeen two freely consenting adults as being "sick." I would reserve "sick" for practices such as foot binding, clitorectomies, bestiality, and necrophilia.

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Sclass
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

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I wasn’t being terribly clear about the sick part. I feel people are free to get off in any way they like as long as they aren’t hurting anyone.

What I meant is the whole cycle. Berating your subordinates. Feeling guilty. Then finding a sex worker to beat you up so you feel better. How about just apologizing to your employees and treating them well next time?

Or bluffing as a titan of industry in front of your investors but behind closed doors you are a cowering baby hugging your teddy bear mamma for a price. Why not just be a normal person?

I kind of toss those managers in with guys who beat up their dog or down a fifth of whisky after a management beat down. There is something sick about the whole system and how things get resolved.

Somehow all these characters are short circuiting really important feedback loops that keep good teams working together. The fact some enterprising individuals monetize their sexuality to relieve these people of their money is a good thing.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Sclass wrote:There is something sick about the whole system and how things get resolved.
Well, I'm definitely of the opinion that corporate culture is pathological, but it could also be argued that nothing can emerge in human culture that isn't based on the simpler blocks of our potential, inclusive of social/sexual dominance hierarchies.

I recently read an excellent new novel, "The Bee Sting" in which a collection of complex characters (very clearly representing integral levels of social development from Magical through Systems) deal with issues related to climate change/collapse, sexual identity, and family. One interesting conversation in the novel had a couple highly intelligent pubescent boys wondering why Sex Ed refers to the Birds & the Bees when the manner in which birds and bees engage sexually is so different from the pattern of humans. What would corporate culture look like if you knew your sex organs were going to be ripped from your body after mating with the Virgin Queen or if the male of the species didn't even have a penis, so had to dress up in bright colors and perform intricate dances in order to gain close/long enough approach to the female to engage in cloacal kiss?

IOW, live like a chimp, die like a chimp, which is why I try to model my behavior more towards that of a peaceful mature female Bonobo. Of course, monogamy could also be practiced as counter to dominance hierarchy, and it is certainly within the human behaviorial purview, but many/most species that are towards strictly monogamous are also viciously territorial and that can lead to resource depletion, because every nuclear family then needs its own McMansion with moat.

Anyways, I have, of course, occasionally been in the company of a male partner while he was crying for variety of reasons, but I can only recall one sexual encounter involving my partner crying, and that was for the understandable reason that I was his first partner after being left by his wife whom he dearly loved, and I was actually crying too, because it was also the first time I had sex with somebody else after being married for 20 years. So, I can't really completely wrap my mind around the "crying with Teddy Bear Mom" sex worker thing. Men much more often exhibit anger when they are emotionally overcome, so "cooling him down" would be much more common Mom mixing Martini motive than "making him cry." So, I would suggest that the sex worker's behavior would have had to be at least somewhat towards Domme in order to produce that sort of cathartic effect. Making somebody cry and then offering them comfort would be towards creating high level of dependency/Stockholm Syndrome, so would offer large payoff, but would also be not very ethical, IMO.

I took a millisecond to consider whether my self-made 100 milionaire friend (whose primary partner was a former sex worker) might be somebody who wanted to cry with Teddy Bear Mom in sexual context, and it was simply entirely unimaginable. He wasn't my cup of tea in terms of sexual attraction for a number of reasons (although he was highly ntelligent and did have a boyish spring in his step), but if I were to narrow it down to just "style", I would imagine him as being too "crude" in bed for my taste, unsavory mix of "grew up in a barn" and "hung out with Frat boys."

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Sclass
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

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This was the lady. I recall reading an interview she gave to the SJ Mercury while on lunch break…during the dot com bubble. The interview really got into the male vulnerability thing and how she played it.

The Dot.com Call Girl: A Silicon Valley Escort's Memoir Paperback – February 15, 2008

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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by Jean »

@7w5
chimp are as close to us as bonobo are. They exhibit a very different behavior.
I think the sexual behavior is much more linked to recent evolutionary context, than old genes from millions of years ago.
I'm not saying bonobos are a wrong model for modern human

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

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@Sclass:

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm curious, so added it to my reading list. Unfortunately, beyond my current semi-decrepit/chubby state of being, my own ability to make hay through "play" is seriously limited by my strong tendency towards also actually saying things such as "Is my behavior effecting your vasopressin (provide/protect chemical) levels in such a manner that you are now feeling compelled to buy me some dinner?" or "You may be noticing that my waist-to-hip ratio is currently .76 rather than the .74 I mentioned in my dating profile. I apologize for the bait and switch." The worst thing I ever did was when I met a tall, good-looking retired firefighter at the restaurant attached to a sporting goods superstore, and I actually said the the exact words, "I want a man in my life, because I don't want to kill my own snakes" (which I had read in a 1960s guide on projecting femininity) while batting my eyes, and it totally worked!
Jean wrote:chimp are as close to us as bonobo are. They exhibit a very different behavior.
I think the sexual behavior is much more linked to recent evolutionary context, than old genes from millions of years ago.
I'm not saying bonobos are a wrong model for modern human
Yes, I agree. I was just attempting to make the point that although humans are highly intelligent and flexible in their behaviors as is exhibited through highly varying cultures, there are some models, such as that of bee society/sexuality, which we would be much more unlikely to develop or unable to replicate. Corporate culture is closer to the chimp model, but the extent to which it is abstracted from the "natural" model may be causative of some of the "odd" sexual behavior described by the dotcom escort. For example, chimps often actually physically fight to maintain or gain dominance, so maybe gaining a position of dominance in a hierarchy without actually fighting could promote feelings of anxiety. Dunno.

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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by Sclass »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:49 am
Unfortunately, beyond my current semi-decrepit/chubby state of being, my own ability to make hay through "play" is seriously limited by my strong tendency towards also actually saying things such as
@7w sounds like an excuse to me. If I wanted to try this I’d just put a price on it and see if the market cleared. Why not? It sounds like your value may be significantly more than a Thai dinner. Guys want to dump emotions on you to feel better. I’d try a different strategy. Short of flat out putting a price tag on your session you can say “I’d really love to have Thai dinner again but I am very busy doing gig work to pay my bills.” If the guy is really jonesing for whatever you gave him you can start negotiating a rate.

I hear all the chubby self doubt thoughts but seriously that’s you. Not your potential client. I think the real money is somewhere beyond physical sex for the most part.

The whole lentil baby thing is a form of exchange for your hanging around. The big difference between that and the Silicon Valley call girl is she can put a price tag on it without ruining the deal. It’ll take some saleswomanship and guts but it’d be a fun.

ETA the proposition. Playing back my boring life I recall one of my mom’s nurses subtly proposing a sex for money opportunity to me on multiple occasions. On the many nights waiting for my mom to fall asleep the nurse would go into some story about how she was desperate for money in the past. Guys would ask her out for dinner and dancing and she’d say right before they left, “Look, I need to feed my baby and if you were going to spend $X on dinner, $Y on dancing, I am okay if you just give me the cash and we can just go back inside my place now.”

It was pretty unsettling because my mother was lying right there staring into space with dementia and I am sure she understood some of what she heard.

I’d just reply “Darla that’s very interesting. I’m sorry you were in that situation.” She’d go on “I didn’t mind, we were gonna do it anyway why not just give the cash directly to me instead of the restaurant and dance club? I am going to do it anyway why not just give the money directly to me? (laughing)”.

Nerdy Sclass replies “that’s interesting. Pass me the nail clippers.” This came up multiple times over the years. Likely she had a bill to pay at the time. Finally this particular caregiver found out it was easier to get cash tips out of me for showing up on time.

She was bold. Thankfully not my type.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Sclass wrote:Playing back my boring life...
Nobody's life is as boring as mine is currently. (sigh)

I find the topic of erotic capital and economic exchange in the realm of sexuality quite fascinating*, but I am not interested in engaging in sex work myself. If I ever manage to get myself back in shape physiologically, my bucket list goal is achieving Transcendent Sexual Union, which would require exchanging any/all the erotic capital I have in order to obtain a heterosexual male partner with some strong skills. For example, somebody like the highly intelligent Japanese Dom who approached me during my brief BDSM phase.

By analogy, I very much enjoyed being a rare book dealer, but in order to make money at that profession, I had to mostly stock/sell books I wasn't particularly interested in reading myself. Achieving Transcendent Sexual Union would be more akin to crossing Write a Novel off my bucket list or winning a gold medal in the Senior Olympics, etc.

*I am going to write some more here about the Victorian era practice of "treating."

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Re: Sex Work, Erotic Capital, and ERE

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The first four titles on the reading list for this thread:

1) Love for Sale: Courting, Treating, and Prostitution in New York City, 1900-1945- Clement.
2) Cheap Amusements: Working Women and Leisure in Turn-of-the-Century New York- Peiss.
3) Capitalism's Sexual History- Smith.
4) Porn Work: Sex, Labor,, and Late Capitalism- Berg.

These two short articles may also offer an inkling towards the depth of this topic:
https://ushist2112honors.files.wordpres ... tship.pdf]
In New York City, between 1880 and 1920, young, unmarried, working-class women experimented with new forms of sexuality
and new types of relationships with men very much at odds with our stereotypes of Victorian sexuality and also with middle-class
notions of respectability. Most of these women were single wage earners who toiled in the city's factories, shops, and department
stores, while devoting their evenings to the lively entertainment of the streets, public dance halls, and other popular amusements. Born or
educated in the United States, many adopted a cultural style meant to distance themselves from their immigrant
roots and familial traditions. Such women dressed in the latest finery, negotiated city life with ease, and sought intrigue and adventure with male companions. For this group of working women, sexuality became a central dimension of their emergent culture
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -their-day
Dance halls were the Tinder of their day. In 1953, the Economist described them as Britain’s second-biggest entertainment industry after cinema, with an estimated attendance of about four million a week and 200 million over the year. Football’s 80 or 90 million spectators didn’t come close. The figures for the consequence of all this dancing are, like those for online dating, less reliable: the Daily Mail suggested in 1950 that 70% of couples in Britain had first met on a dance floor, and in Glasgow as high a proportion of marriages were often said to have originated in the same way.


As I was reading about the late Victorian era through 1940s heterosocial industrial/capitalism-era-working-class practice of economic exchange known as "treating" which often took place in Dance Halls and similar urban venues of entertainment such as early amusement parks, I was struck by how much this resembled aspects of my own Lenti-Baby practice/experience when I was meeting most of my entertainment needs/wants through barter in alignment with lowering my spending towards approximately 1 Jacob "ERE" level. Although, of course, the fact that I was a 21st century rare-book dealer in her early 50s rather than a turn-of-the-20th century factory worker in her teens, did serve to alter the exchange(s) towards a somewhat higher level of abstraction. Still, it was the case, that events occurred such as finding myself sitting across a restaurant table from a declared polyamorous man on our second date and hearing him say "Since I am certain I make more money than you, and my wife also makes more money than you, I want you to know that I will be picking up the bill for dinner and all of our shared activities in the future."

Apparently, this working-class practice of "treating" eventually merged with the upper-middle-class practice of chaperoned "courtship" to become the mid-century American practice of "dating" with which we are all more familiar. I am old enough to have been influenced by the writings/philiosophy of Helen Gurley Brown which were found in Cosmopolitan magazine and her 1962 classic, "Sex and the Single Girl", so I found it interesting to learn about how working class women took a much earlier lead on liberalizing sexual behavior, as was the case for many other issues in feminism, due to the social freedom that was a side-effect of the necessity to work outside of the home forced upon them by early industrial capitalism.

I was also curious about the sort of "tough" dancing done in these halls, because the books describe the dance styles and moves as being fairly provocative. Here are a few videos I rounded up maybe featuring a dance performed by your very own great-grandmother. I know that my maternal working-class city-dwelling factory girl grandmother did hang out in dance halls in the pre-WW2 era, because my Great-Aunt Ethel teased her about how popular she was one time when they both drank a bit too much while in my company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ9qapVmWi4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGEksQvMeYg

Also, a cutting-edge 1910 Danish film, "The Woman Always Pays", which features a banned scene (at approximately 20:00)which may have originated The Shimmy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RaQ2qTizsU]

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