ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
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jacob
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ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 3:06 pm
I see the FIRE community as having the shared social characteristic that they're financially independent. They can talk about what they do all day when they no longer spend all day working for a living. They can get together and do it together instead of being off on their own. I see the ERE community as having the shared social characteristic of not depending on money and thus not depending on making it. They can talk about how they do that on their own (as we we here on the forum, an online community, in the form of international travel, hikes, appliance repairs, small builds). They can get together and do it together than maybe make something more incredible than what we currently spend our time on individually.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:26 am
I think you need to expand on this and share it on the ERE City thread. I was considering my answers to the survey, and happened to be re-reading "Getting Things Done", and Allen's observations on exploring "purpose" in project design struck me as highly relevant, because the survey at level "what?" seems to be putting the cart before the horse a bit with asking "where?" and "how?" prior to clearly answering "why?" One of the primary reasons humans generally group together socially (starting with the dyad) is to meet their more basic mammalian level needs (such as Jin+Guice discussed above.) Clearly, ERE city is not primarily imagined/visioned with primary purpose being something like providing forum members with all the hugs or other forms of warm communion they might need/want. My current understanding is that the primary "purpose" would be more like that of Bell Labs, a sort of human high-skill "factor"y towards 21st century resilience. IOW, the emphasis would be on creative work, but as with all things there would still be boring or annoying work such as "the dishes" and "fixing the printer" that would have to be addressed, and your concern is not that the creative work (writing/directing/costume-design/musically-arranging "Napoleon Fever") will largely fall to the more highly factored, but that they will also be on tap for much of the boring/annoying work (typing up "Napoleon Fever", filling out the associated worksheet.) If this is reflective of your concern/possible resentment-vortex, my response would be "Hello, welcome to the world of just about every high-factored female prior to approximately 1969." ;)
So ordered, because I happen to have been thinking about it in AQAL terms, which also happen explain the difference between ERE City and ERE Hostel Hubs.

Lemmesplain.

AQAL is a framework that distinguishes between the subjective, the objective, the intersubjective, and the interobjective. Philosophical nitpicking aside, subjective is what happens inside a person's head and objective is what happens outside that person's head. You can objectively see my balding head, but you can not subjectively see what I'm thinking right now.

The ERE blog writings and the ERE book was my subjective perspective on the objective and interobjective world we live in. What's the difference between objective and interobjective? If I'm kicking a ball, the ball is objectively kicked as you can see. What you can not see if how the kicking feels to my foot, because that's subjective to me alone. You can kick a ball objectively as well as I can see. However, it may be that I'm kicking one soccer ball and you're kicking a different soccer ball. These kicks are not objectively the same because each ball may have a different pressure in them. As such each of us is objectively doing something different. However, if we were to get together and kick the very same ball, THAT ball would be interobjective.

Why is this blabla-sounding distinction important? Because the interobjective perspective allows the creation of soccer. IOW, while kicking is an objective construct, soccer is an interobjective construct. Other interobjective constructs include things like the economy, the legal system, financial markets, clubs, games, war,... Interobjectivity transcends and includes the objective. It is bigger and it also contains the individual perspectives. Interobjective soccer has kicking and passing. Objective ball juggling just has kicking. There's no passing without kicking or some other interobjectively allowed objective move, like heading. In turn, intersubjective understanding of the interobjective makes a huge difference because it allows for strategy. A phalanx, which sees the same thing in the same way, easily defeats a hero, who see one thing in one way or even a bunch of heroes who sees the same thing but in different ways.

Intersubjectivity is what we have if we both see something the same way; we both have the same idea and we both effectively understand it in the same way. Basically we have a mutual understanding of what something is and means. For example, everybody who has learned basic math have the same intersubjective understanding of 2+2=4. Someone who has not learned math or thinks 2+2=5 is not part of this intersubjective perspective. They're part of another intersubjective perspective. Why is that blabla important?

The ERE WL table deliniates 10 different ways (perspectives) of looking at the same (inter)objective things. It turns out that people of the same WL share much of the same intersubjective perspective with each other whereas people who are 2+ WLs removed think that others are crazy/extreme/etc. and therefore not part of the intersubjective experience. We know this is true because of interobjective data (many hundreds of forum threads) that we can all see.

The ERE forum is an intersubjective experience. People feel like they've found their tribe because they can [maybe for the first time in their life] express their subjective perspective and have it intersubjectively understood by others. Don't take this for granted. Remember how it was before you found this or a similar tribe. I posit that humans very much desire this intersubjectivity. Imagine, if you can, a world of the year 2007, when this intersubjective experience was undiscoverable and all you had was old books that a few other people had written many years ago.

The ERE forum is, however, not an interobjective experience. We each sit and klack at our own personally objective keyboards. But, we each live our own objective life in an interobjective world we share with working stiff consumers. The only difference between them and us is that they intersubjectively believe in "work=passion or work=getting ahead with the goal of success=stuff" whereas we intersubjectively believe in "3-4% rules and success=FI". But we share the same interobjective world.

Some in the FIRE/ERE/alt-living movement are actually just fine with that. They've carved out their niche and thrive. They often worry that if FIRE becomes too popular, they will no longer be able to enjoy the interobjective world as it currently is because that world would change. Maybe the government will start taxing capital. Maybe consumers will stop the free flow of goods from the back alley. They're happy where they are, interobjectively speaking, and don't have an incentive to change themselves or change others.

When it comes to complex systems, I'm a firm believer in never making [big] irreversible changes or ignoring that "you can never do just one thing". Pursuing multiple reversible strategies is more resilient.

The way I see it, the AQAL framework illustrates the key difference between "ERE City" and "ERE Hostels". Perhaps this resolves/explains the different preferences.

Here's how I see the difference.

"ERE Hostels" or "ERE Meetups" are a way for traveling visitors to experience that intersubjective "wow, I don't have to hide who I am or explain or always dumb down what I'm thinking" for a few hours or days or the duration of the stay. We'll get together and for a short time experience the strongest vibing we've ever experienced. "Damn, where have you people been all my life." It's kinda like Woodstock. People briefly coming together in conventional ways to experience intersubjective communion. Spouses and +1s comment how "you were an entirely different person for a few hours/days there". Basically, you travel to get seen, Maybe for the first time, and perhaps that's good enough. The interobjective experience will be one of travel, hanging out, seminars, and talks around the camp fire before it's onto the next place. Good experiences.

"ERE City" takes the intersubjective for granted---it's no longer a novelty---and the focus moves on expanding the interobjective possibilities. Again, many (semiERE?) will be happy engaging with the interobjective part-time experience of those who otherwise hold full-time jobs. In less technical terms, they're good with training for 1 hour 5 days a week because that's all that even the most extreme of working stiffs can afford. But what if you could train for 12 hours a day every day of the week. This kind of configuration is interobjectively not available except for a very limited range of mostly solo-pursuits. I see ERE City as a solution for those who aren't satisfied with getting their interobjective fix on a part-time/hobby time-schedule as set by the rest of the world.

The challenge of "interobjective ERE" is that it requires EREmites to get together on a frequent basis in order to figuratively "play with the same ball". Intersubjective ERE is easier. You get it in small doses participating on the forum. (Lurkers only enjoy it vicariously.) You get bigger doses with MMGs. You get the biggest doses during meetups. Still, none of those makes an interobjective difference as far as I know of?

I'll note that one likely requires the intersubjective experience---perhaps to the point where it becomes same-old-same-old---before even beginning to consider the possibility of the interobjective experience. Inverting this, it may also be that it's folly to talk about interobjective ERE City before intersubjective relations are SOLID.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:33 pm
I'll note that one likely requires the intersubjective experience---perhaps to the point where it becomes same-old-same-old---before even beginning to consider the possibility of the interobjective experience. Inverting this, it may also be that it's folly to talk about interobjective ERE City before intersubjective relations are SOLID.
An ecological succession model for (sub)city growth.

Add: I think that there is not going to be a one sized fits all solution. It will grow "organically" based on who is there, where "there" is, what interests people have to train for 12 hours a day etc.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:33 pm
I see ERE City as a solution for those who aren't satisfied with getting their interobjective fix on a part-time/hobby time-schedule as set by the rest of the world.
Have you experienced this elsewhere? If not, can you think of other examples where it existed for others with similar characteristics?

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:33 pm
Have you experienced this elsewhere? If not, can you think of other examples where it existed for others with similar characteristics?
Yes!! Not just for myself but it's a general observation of those who manage to buy a ticket out of the work-spend-work-spend cycle.

I think many [FIREs] end up going back to muggle-world jobs because there aren't that many interobjective alternatives to 9-5 traditional jobs, volunteering for a charity, or spending a few years traveling around the world, which eventually gets old for most people within a few years. They basically made too much money for their own good. It was too easy. They weren't ready/mature enough. This basically leaves self-starters like entrepreneurs, hustlers, and those who are capable of finding meaning internally.

In practice, consider the fraction of humanity that spends time OUTSIDE the domain of working, transacting, making money. This is but a fairly small fraction of humanity and that fraction is REALLY hard to find. If you happen to already belong to that fraction, you're good. If you're an entrepreneurial self-starter, you might even wonder why FI or ERE-complications is even a thing in the first place. Who needs it? OTOH if you're someone who's been raised to, say, "build bigger things as part of team" (one or the other or worse both), it's likely that you'll struggle finding meaning in FIRE-style retirement.

As far as I can tell, there are two solutions to this predicament. Either you learn to like hustling in the traditional economy---perhaps by becoming a RE agent or venture capitalist---or you try to figure out what potential could possibly be unlocked with a bunch of people on the team who were all competent and disciplined enough to hit ERE in the first place. I'm sort of tilting towards the latter.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by guitarplayer »

@Ego, four turns ago it was Borsodi doing it, for example.

@Jacob, on your last sentence and in conjunction with @mF's point, ERE Hostel Hub might pave the way to ERE City.

The hostel hub idea lends itself better internationally for obvious reasons, too.

Also, for creation of soccer, some think you need a bunch of other special circumstances ;)

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by Jean »

ere hostel hub might pave the way if eremites are allowed to stay there for extended periods of time.n Aquaintaces kinda do that, they have a garden, in which three person are living in trailers full time.
It seems that AxelHeyst is trying to replicate a similar thing at Quailhaven. I only have guest room and a forest with no water where people could camp, it's only a 30 minute drive to two cities with everything.
A list would be nice, some kind of ereaway network.
But it looks like a lot of people on the forum are very concerned with privacy which is a huge inderance to create such a thing.

Counter intuitively, it might be easier to get people who are still working to move, because they could be attracted somewhere with a nice job opportunity.

I really miss working on something with other people, so having other eremites around who'de want to try thing could be great and yield interesting results.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:A phalanx, which sees the same thing in the same way, easily defeats a hero, who see one thing in one way or even a bunch of heroes who sees the same thing but in different ways.
This is an image reflecting the subjective response of anti-hero eNTP me, imagining herself as part of a phalanx:

Image

Several years prior to joining this forum, I read "The Happiness Project" by Gretchen Rubin, in which she experimented with a variety of practices likely to increase happiness. I wasn't particularly unhappy at the time, but I decided to do my own mini-experiments in alignment with this theory. One note was that people who are religious/spiritual tend to be happier. So, this was already part of my mindset when I met and almost immediately fell into a passionate relationship with my second "husband" who was a practicing Muslim. Ergo, I wound up reverting to Islam and entering into an Islamic marriage contract rather than simply checking "Attend Blessing of the Animals service at liberal Episcopal congregation." off my GTD list. So, then, at one more juncture along this path, I found myself wearing a stretchy pink hijab and attending a meet-up of Islamic-Convert American Women Married to Muslim Men (a very specific sort of shared inter-subjectivity.) It was pretty much like a Girl Scouts meeting, except we were adults and our inter-objective project was making a traditional craft related to an upcoming festival on the Islamic calendar. My "husband" laughed when I showed him the craft I had made, because it was much more culturally Arab/Sunni than Iranian/Shia. So, that was the only meeting of the group that I attended:END PATH EXPLORATION/RETURN LAST JUNCTURE/NOTATE FINDINGS GENERALIZED MAP.

A couple years after joining this forum, I attended a meet-up at Jacob's house in Chicago. I combined the meet-up with visiting my EnfJ third sister (one of the more towards "normal" members of my family, popular jock in high school, low 6 figure semi-passion helper career), and when I tried to explain to her what the forum/meet-up was about, she said "Gotcha. It's like Dave Ramsey for nerds like you."

"ERE", the book, was recommended to me by an algorithm, shortly after I had entered "Your Money and Your Life" and "The Renaissance Soul" and "Food Not Lawns" as books I had enjoyed into my new Goodreads account. And,there were two other spurs to joining the forum. I had previously belonged to an intellectually similar forum which was primarily concerned with marriage and sexuality. I felt very specifically inter-subjectively "recognized" by the other members of that forum, because we were all miserable in our marriages because we weren't getting laid, but had been "hiding" previously. I was very successful in my resolution of that problem-set, so one member of that forum, who was quite financially successful, told me that if I applied the same focus to financial matters, they would similarly become a "solved problem" for living-on-the-margin-self-employed me. Also, my Muslim "husband" who was an early-retired/landlord was very much middle-class Millionaire-Next-Door in terms of his frugality, and tended to "baby-doll" me about my micro-business and alt-lifestyle, so I wanted validation in opposition to his statement of "Nobody can save money until they are making $40,000/year." So, my path to "ERE" didn't include "Currently suffering in 40 hour/week job" or "MMM Forum" or "Having INTJ personality type."

Anyways, the general point I am attempting to make here with the use of way too much personal anecdote is that the subjectivity of "ERE" is like a beam shining and widening with distance out from the flashlight which is Jacob's brain. For any/each of us, our shared intersubjectivy with "ERE" will vary and may change. Therefore, it's entirely possible, actually quite likely, that there are members of this forum who share little or no overlapping intersubjectivy with each other and reached this forum through quite qualitatively different paths, even though they both share a good deal of intersubjectivity with Jacob/ERE. For instance, I might have less intersubjective overlap with a member of this forum who is towards fatFIRE, does not read much, hates gardening/nature, and is always at the gym, than I would have with the median member of any number of other Social Circles/Forums to which I may also find myself belonging, such as Semi-Retired Teachers of Disadvantaged Kids or Bohemian Arts Lovers or Water-Shed Community Council or Chubby Women Who Read Too Much or Transcendent Eco-Sexualists, etc. etc. etc.

So, that's why I indicated that clarifying the purpose of forming an ERECity or series of EREHostels might be critical. What inter-objective projects or "games" are likely to result from a gathering of humans who have shared social characteristic of "not depending on money" (which is very widely defined/manifested on this forum), but not necessarily any other characteristics/aspects of inter-subjectivity in common? Build an independent branch of internet connection? (nope, sez the more Luddite)Grow a community orchard? (nope, sez the Carnivorous fructose avoider.) Start a lending library? (nope, sez the Blockhead.....and then I find myself embroiled in a community conflict, because maybe I actually spoke aloud the word "Blockhead", because I have no backspace button available in real life...)

ETA: This post came off MUCH more pessimistic than I meant it. Maybe I was just trying to make the point that a human can be within the overlap or at the outlie of any number of different outlier groups without necessarily averaging out as the norm. Also, I personally don't necessarily feel a huge divide from other humans just because they would be categorized as "typical consumer" or "typical careerist", because they may still share other outlier characteristics in common with me. For instance, "Reads well over 100 books/year" would be an outlier group which might include many "consumer/careerists", although it is easier for those of us who make the time for it by otherwise slacking. Maybe the point Jacob was trying to make was that IFF I was entirely financially independent then I could read books 12 hours/day 7 days/week (which I nearly approached during lock-down), thereby joining the "Reads well over 300 books/year" outlier group (which I don't actually believe exists except for some readers of pulp fiction.) Okay, reading is obviously NOT inter-objective, but I already joined the "Has sex well over 300 X per year" group while "married" to my early-retired second "husband", and I think ther inter-objective project/game I can best imagine myself playing with other members of this forum would be Building Civilization from Scratch kind of like the Primitive Technology Guy, except in a group. That would be super-fun, and I would make some effort to show up for a project/game such as that. That's also why starting from a position of everybody living in $250,000 single family homes in a safe neighborhood doesn't seem like very much fun. What are we going to do? Just help each other build decks out back?

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by mathiverse »

Is this what you're asking 7W5? "Do those on this forum have enough inter-subjective overlap to result in enough buy in to begin interesting and big inter-objective projects if they lived nearby each other and saw each other regularly?"

The reasons you gave for asking this question, if I understood you correctly: There are, intentionally, many ways to find/be ERE. There are also many incompatible implementations within ERE.

I think the answer to the question is that the important aspect of ERE inter-subjectivity isn't about the details of a particular lifestyle, but about the way people think about problems and come to decisions.

In addition, I think that there is evidence of there being enough inter-subjective overlap to be worth exploring how that manifests with regular contact based on meet ups, MMGs, skillathon, and ERE fest.

I don't think it's necessary to have inter-objective projects be obvious ahead of time. Part of the reason ERE City is interesting is that the outcome is unpredictable. It's bringing all the ingredients together to maybe have something interesting happen. I think the Bell Labs comparison is probably right.

It's also probably right that there will be work that no one wants to do. But one benefit of the fact ERE has many different archetypes is that people don't all want to do the same type of work, some want to be engineers, some don't mind sales, etc (eg viewtopic.php?t=12966). Of course, you always have to work with what you actually have, but it seems like the problem of who handles the boring stuff is something that can be worked out.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@mathiverse:

Don't misunderstand. I think ERE City, ERE Hubs, ERE Trail are all great ideas. I am just attempting to speak from my life experience which does not match this:
jacob wrote:But, we each live our own objective life in an interobjective world we share with working stiff consumers.
I am 59 years old, and I have only spent around 4 years of my life working full-time in a structured corporate environment, and even that was in a fairly liberal setting where the barrier to entry was a test to prove that you were significantly well-read. Therefore, I have spent a lot of time working on my own projects and also working on projects with others who were not conventionally employed. I've lived or worked in or around the Most Educated City in the U.S. for most of my adult life. and the majority of the members of my extended family are beyond two standard deviations IQ, and they also tend towards choosing partners who are similarly "gifted" in some manner. And, my observation based on my life-long experience would be that even The Adult Gifted Kids Classroom needs some degree of structure/faciliation. At one end of the spectrum, you might have a WannabeGoogle/Bell Labs Corporation, obviously driven primarily by profit motive and market domination purpose, "gifting" its employees with a few hours each week to creatively explore their own innovative-with-very-narrow-perspective projects. At the other end of the spectrum, you might have 12 fully retired humans placed together in a room full of arts and crafts supplies and marijuana for 8 hours/5days per week with only the directive, "Be Creative! Express Yourself!" Both of these models are known to not work all that well, although they are certainly better than SOP at Level Orange. If humans actually knew the secret sauce recipe to spark collaborative innovation, all our problems would already be solved.

On one level, "ERE" can be seen as being rather like a conglomeration of several episodes of "Project Runway" broadened from fashion design to entire lifestyle design, although with more friendly support than catty competition between participants.

Episode 1) Stylish 7 Costume Renaissance Wardrobe.
Episode 2) Entire Functional Wardrobe with only $10 Budget and/or Stuff Found in Dumpster/Foraged Sustainably from Nature.
Episode 3) Lifetime Subscription to Functional Wardrobe (or Just Underpants) Club Paid In Full By Shoemaking or Millinery Efforts Alone.
Not Yet Fully Approved For Airtime: Episode 4) Matching Basic Functional Wardrobe for You and Some Poor Kid in Africa.

My personal performance self-evaluation would be:

Episode 1) B+
Episode 2) A-
Episode 3) D-
Episode 4) B+

Because I feel myself to be pretty solid in (2), I generally project-team-relationship up with other humans who are either better at (1) or (4) in some ways or (3) in any way. So, I often find myself either on the sober, pragmatic side of a Bohemian Artist/Stoned Philosopher project or on the warm, footloose side of a Millionaire-Engineer-Next-Door project or the cool, rational side of a Compassionate Giving project. And, I am familiar with the downside of any of these potentials. Ergo, although this forum is centered at (2), I can't perceive of any way in which an ERE City project which did not include some shared housing could further (2) very much for the individuals engaged, which leads me to suspect that the projects would tend more towards even more of (3), and even though I self-aware suck at (3), I am still not very interested in group projects primarily aimed at further building up stocks/robustness/optimization/boundary-maintenance, because that feels too much like DIY Gated Community, Oxygen Mask Stockpiling Club, or Budget Billionaire Escape Capsule to me.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:24 am
I am 59 years old, and I have only spent around 4 years of my life working full-time in a structured corporate environment, and even that was in a fairly liberal setting where the barrier to entry was a test to prove that you were significantly well-read. Therefore, I have spent a lot of time working on my own projects and also working on projects with others who were not conventionally employed.
I realize that there's a difference between where everybody [already] are and also where each person wants to go. This is also the point I was trying to make to @Ego.

If you've arranged your life and priorities around your own projects and projects with others who are not conventionally employed in the traditional sense, then your problem is already solved. Perhaps to the point where you don't even see it as a problem. If so, you don't need/want ERE City.

Lets draw a 2x2 diagram: (deep, broad) x (alone, together).

Deep x alone: You're happy doing your thing. Perhaps it's spending all your time reading a few hundred books per year. Perhaps it's programming a simulation of the Newtonian mechanics of the solar system. Perhaps, it's building stuff like this: viewtopic.php?p=282457#p282457

Broad x alone: You're happy doing many different things. Simultaneously pursuing 10 different hobbies and never getting bored. You wonder why other people get bored because you have no problem entertaining yourself. Today you're fixing fences. Tomorrow, you're working out. Then you have a trip. Then you're planting trees.

Broad x together: You're happy because you get to meet a lot of people each doing their own thing. You trade stories and stuff with them. You go to this club and that club. You go to the market to buy stuff and then you sell that stuff in another market. You arrange [ERE] meetups and people come visit and talk you. They learn something from you and maybe you learn something from them.

Deep x together: You're happy doing your thing but together you can go deeper than if you're doing it on your own. Instead of programming a solar system simulator (science fair stuff), you're doing actual research or making something cool (perhaps the world's fastest video drone) that would be beyond the scope of an individual pursuit or a weekend project. Keep in mind that I'm prone to suggest technology-builds ... whereas others might be more interested in other things that require bringing lots of talent together for extended time.

Now, the last one already exists in the form of jobs and corporations. However, these arrangements are all made out of specialists doing one thing and usually working for the vision of some CEO's vision for the shareholders. This can be rather boring for those who don't want be cogs in that machine, restricted to roles and profit margins. The HTME workshop would be one example of what could emerge out of ERE City. Such a workshop requires a lot of education/effort when it comes from just one person. That's a very rare breed. It basically depends on one very smart, passionate, and executing individual coming up with all the ideas, making all the arrangements, and relying on or rather managing a bunch of interns to get shit done.

Over the past 10 years, I've slowly been moving towards being able to do everything myself. However, this has required reading books, attending classes, doing research, accumulating parts and tools, etc. to learn how to do it myself. I can do a lot now, but finishing a complicated or complex project requires tons of studying to learn every single NEW part or NEW process. For sure, the more I know, the faster I get at getting stuff done. Still, I have a lot of ideas that are stymied until I learn enough to do this or that particular skill.

This means that something that could have taken two weeks with other people's skills and input often end up taking two years when trying to DIY or learning it slowly at the club level intensity.

This is why I'm not personally satisfied with engaging with other people at the "1 hour per week" or a "one-time 3 day/week visit" level of the other options.

You see the difference?

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by J_ »

Yes I see the difference. And that it depends on each character and her experience.
As entrepreneur I have learned to realise rather complicated projects by searching and finding the people and companies who made it happen. Therefore I would rather be participating in an ERE hostel hub. Part-time.

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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by jacob »

J_ wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2024 4:35 pm
Yes I see the difference. And that it depends on each character and her experience.
As entrepreneur I have learned to realise rather complicated projects by searching and finding the people and companies who made it happen. Therefore I would rather be participating in an ERE hostel hub. Part-time.
Yeah, I'm beginning to see a pattern here in terms of preferences. As a researcher, I spent years traveling to different places around the world to spend a few days talking to different people and see and hear about what they were working on, but I ultimately found it just as useful to just correspond via email. With zoom now being possible, it's pretty much a no-brainer (for me) to stay at home and just get on the phone (zoom) for that. Conversely, every time I moved to a new group, it resulted in new collaborations and new projects as we were able to spend more time working together while having ready access to each others tools and data.

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:If you've arranged your life and priorities around your own projects and projects with others who are not conventionally employed in the traditional sense, then your problem is already solved. Perhaps to the point where you don't even see it as a problem. If so, you don't need..
Yes! My current problem is that I am not in good enough shape to go out and play as much as usual with people and projects, not that I don't have my own projects or people or other-people-projects. I also don't frequently find money/career to be a primary limiting factor to project initiation/participation; I just quit or cut back hours on any just-money-job(s) that interferes with project as soon as I have enough money to move forward with a project, especially if I have any semi-realistic hope that the project itself might yield some income. So, I was confused about ERE City, because I was trying to imagine something a further level up in complexity from my given.
...want ERE City.
No! I still want ERE City/Hub/Trail to exist, so that I can maybe come play with people and projects there for some in between amount of time/commitment, like maybe an entire summer or up to 3 years with significant breaks to touch back to my established home base in Michigan. If ERE City was established in a location where I already have some people or in a place some of my people would like to live/visit, that would probably factor heavily in my decision matrix. For example, if I feel well enough to do something like EREFest in September, I would probably want to bring somebody from my own social circle with me. In my current rough state of being, whimsical asynchronous communication is probably the best I can contribute to any group/project.
jacob wrote:Lets draw a 2x2 diagram: (deep, broad) x (alone, together).
Once again, as an eNTP (currently testing XNTP due to isolation), I naturally move between all 4 of these quadrants, although definitely not usually as "deep" into mastery as an INTJ, so a given for me that all of these potentialities exist. A fairly important note I might add is that it has been my experience that for any given participant in any given project, the levels of deep/broad and alone/together can vary a good deal, and initiative/leadership is also a hugely important distinguishing factor. For simple example, John, Paul, Ringo, and George were all deep/together on their The Beatles project, but John and Paul were the co-leaders. It's also quite rare to go beyond a co-leader to a tri-leader or multi-leader project; this usually only happens when there is a clear split in role/identity with multiple people in the same role. For example, within my micro-business project, my daughter was the lead (due to her personality as much as nepotism) of the shipping department.

My sister built an animatronic bear from scratch with the help of some of the electrical and mechanical engineers in our social circle. The genius-level eNTP electrical engineer who helped with the animatronic bear project also had his own Skunk Works lab, which is what I think is kind of like what you are describing as central to your "want" for broader ERE City project. He actually attempted to hire me to be sort of the Social Hostess for his contract work LLC, which overlapped with his Skunk Works crew, because he was having difficulty getting the genius-level in different specialties extreme introverts he had gathered together to communicate with each other. I lived with him for a couple years in a big Victorian he owned and house-hacked out to other humans, including couple living in an airstream in his backyard, so I know keeping the genius-introverts playing well together was a continuing problem, which he hoped I could help with because my female flavor of eNTP is much less abrasive than his male flavor of eNTP, and I at least know enough math/science to talk to a genius-level Skunk Works crew. One way he would typically recruit participants (especially young programmers) for some of his tech projects (and also female romantic partners :roll: ) was he would just hang out at a cool coffee shop near the university campus and directly approach people, "Is this chair taken? Java, huh?" Unfortunately, because Feynman was one of his role models, he also chose to hang out at the strip club quite frequently. I didn't mind the strippers doing their laundry at the house, and I liked the highly intelligent Girlfriend Experience Escort who rented one of the other rooms in the house, but I didn't like the fact that the rough boyfriends of the strippers would also sometimes show up at the house, so I felt compelled to leave what was otherwise an amiable house-share situation with him. An example of a tech project he helped invent/patent while I was living with him was a strip that creates a fairly clear heat image on your skin of whatever is in front of you when you stick it to your forehead. I helped him test it by wandering around the backyard with my eyes shut, with these blurred red images of trees somehow being transferred to my visual cortex.

Once again, there is some variety of hopefully helpful generalizable information I am trying to convey here with too much personal anecdote :lol:

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grundomatic
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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by grundomatic »

I like the 2x2 matrix as a framework. I primarily favor the broad x together quadrant (thanks for not saying shallow, btw). I've done what I consider the requisite broad x alone work required to "kinda ERE", like cooking for myself, doing my own yardwork, painting my house, making hobbies pay for themselves, etc., but I do desire something more “together”.

In the ERE book the typical consumer life is shown as driving to the job box to make money to then drive to other boxes to spend money. While this behavior has been reduced to a degree when talking about money, it's exactly analogous to my social life. Drive to the improv theater. Drive to the tutoring gig. Drive to weekly Magic: The Gathering or biweekly Dungeons and Dragons. Drive to hike. Drive to play through my friend's board game pile of shame. My activities are spread throughout the city, and I'm limited to when everyone else isn't working. I could ride my bike to some of these, but that's only partially the point.

The draw of ERE city, for me, is having ready access to many interesting people and their projects. While I’m not going to be any help with a jacob project, I’m hopeful many others wouldn’t mind having an “intern” to help them with digging a hole because they are ill, holding a large board in place while they join it, or helping them lug stuff to the flea market where they are selling. I’ll do almost anything if it’s “together”, the caveat being it can’t be the same thing over and over again. If that’s what I wanted I could just get a job. I guess if it seems like a lot of ‘work’, there should probably be snacks and lemonade provided. In short, I’m the person jacob described here:
jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:17 pm
OTOH if you're someone who's been raised to, say, "build bigger things as part of team" (one or the other or worse both), it's likely that you'll struggle finding meaning in FIRE-style retirement.
I think it was in another thread that the college living situation was mentioned, and that’s exactly the experience I’d like to recreate. Many people living in close vicinity to each other, with similar (or at least compatible?) outlooks, and time on their hands, only this time we are learning to live without jobs instead of learning to live without parents.

Jin+Guice
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Re: ERE City homesteaders vs ERE Hostel Hub nomads (an AQAL perspective)

Post by Jin+Guice »

Ok, I know you are trying to start ERE city in Tucson @grundomatic, but these problems would be solved for you in New Orleans. People here really hate to work.

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