Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Where are you and where are you going?
thef0x
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2024 2:46 am

Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by thef0x »

daylen wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:22 pm
Evolution happens; Involution deals with what happens as it unfolds through goal alignment. An external view of an embodied creature reveals no goals but may tell a story of how the creature became what it is. An internal view of an embodied creature reveals goals through rationality which can be defined as the proper proportioning of problems. Intelligence is necessary though not sufficient for rationality.
^^well said (my emphasis). (Can listen to this song while reading https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cwIfl4FGe8)

Speaking personally, I used to think that evolution selects for intelligence. But then I listened to a podcast discussing this topic, with a simple question posed: why, during the millions of years where dinosaurs roamed the planet, was intelligence was not selected for?

What is selected for is random (mutations) and then filtered by the environment for that generation of life (including competition, extrinsic factors like meteorites, etc).

So I'd push you on the idea that there is an evolutionary advantage to heteroletic behaviors, which is why they were selected for.

Rather, we're throw into these bodies that have these "not optimal" and "optimal" traits (again, this language is assuming a design but I'm using it to illustrate the point) and we gotta just figure it out. We didn't evolve those traits because they are advantageous for our survival, they happened randomly (genetic mutation) and, when smashed against the environmental wall of reality, they were inherited into the next generation.

They didn't have to be 'advantageous' at all to be passed down. For example: in certain populations, sickle cells were inherited because sickle blood cells are more resistant to malaria than normally shaped cells -- better environmental fit. But sickle cell anemia is a negative outcome of that random genetic mutation as well.

The dopamine system serves an incredible purpose: it motivates us to not starve! But, in an environment of abundance and fast-everything, it's something to manage with effort and frustration.

So here we are, anxious about tigers that aren't around the corner, working our butts off to avoid the temptation of dopamine-rich indulgence, trying to get our shit together. IMO that is our default state. Why? The randomness of evolution.

There is no system that makes us this way, there is no direction that evolution points us.

It be's that way.

daylen
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by daylen »

thef0x wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:37 pm
There is no system that makes us this way, there is no direction that evolution points us.
Though if you stop here then you explain nothing about where we have been and might be headed. Evolution is random at the level of genetic mutation but there are other ways to look at what an organism is. There are physical, chemical, and computational principles that can partially explain why an organism might be adaptive for a given environment. Integrating all these principles over multiple scales causes evolution to start looking less random. Randomness implies unintelligibility but science has gradually rendered the universe more intelligible to us, although leaving us perplexed at the complexity of it all.

ertyu
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by ertyu »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:17 am
I am not disagreeing that there is no "natural state" of goals, what I am curious about is, lacking a natural state, why do we all seem to have heterotelic goals and need to work towards homeotelic goals?

"Why are we programmed so our short-term goals work against our long-term goals?"
These are in many ways the same question. I think there -is- a natural state of goals: survive long enough to pass on genetic material effectively (effectively = your offspring has also survived to pass on their genetic material). This is our "old," "lizard" brain programming: if it's tasty, eat it, if it's hard, fuck it, if it makes you hard, also fuck it.

To the extent that the evolutionarily recent, slapshod "higher brain" we have acquired has any goals different from these, it needs to do work and "reign in" any non-congruent drives of the lizard brain. Both the "lizard" brain and the "higher" brain are "natural." The state of having internally inconsistent goals and drives is thus "natural" too.

Further, many of the goals that appear heterotelic to our rational selves are actually lizard-homotelic - e.g. "buy and eat this muffin i've encountered" is v much homotelic with "minimize effort" and "maximize dopamine hits." Things only get complicated if you want to have any goals other than these.

I don't think it's inherently meant to be hard, or that it builds character or whatever, it's more that all humans, when their higher brains kick in, realize that their drives need to be explicitly managed. Be it in the desire/avoidance framework of buddhism or in the "sinning" (in its "missing the way" definition) of the judeo-christian world.

As for whether heterotelic goals have been selected for bc grant evolutionary advantage: I don't think so. I think having a rational thinking brain does, so it's been selected for. Having goals other than "minimize effort, maximize dopamine hits" is but an epiphenomenon.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jin+Guice wrote:Survival is a multi-goal optimization problem, but the assumed outcome variable of evolution is usually taken to be univariate and binary. Did we survive, pass on our genes, and raise our children so they may pass on their genes (and ensure that they raise their children so they can pass on their dreams x infinity). While defining the exact outcome objective is a little tricky, the question can be answered with a yes or a no. How does having heterotelic goals help us get to yes?
It's not even remotely binary. Genghis Khan has 16 million currently living male descendants. The average(d) male alive in the time of Genghis Khan has 34 currently living male descendants. Grandma Gatewood, the first woman to thru hike the Appalachian Trail at age 67, had 66 direct living descendants at the time of her death at age 85.
The evolutionary actor still experiences this as a complex multi-variate optimization problem where the answer is unknown. But, what is the advantage of having heterotelic goals in this scenario?
The advantage of having heterotelic goals is that you can make decisions.
If food effects survival->reproduction-> successful iteration positively in a goldilocks range and negatively if we have too little OR too much food
It doesn't. Even in modern times and affluent setting, underweight men are less likely to marry/reproduce than obese women, although obese women are slightly less likely to marry/reproduce than normal weight women. Ergo, it's a bit of a wash in next generation. Genghis Khan and Grandma Gatewood were both a bit on the stocky, muscular side.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

Ok. I'm realizing that arguing if evolution selected for heterotelic goals is a losing argument, bc if you are of the opinion that the theory of evolution is roughly true, than evolution had to at least equip us with the mechanism for heterotelic goals. I also concede to everyone who did a great job countering what I was arguing.

After thinking more about the question I asked, where I was trying to direct things is that, while the mechanisms of heterotelic goals are hardwired into us, do y'all think we live in a world that exacerbates them? How does our specific time and place encourage heterotelic goals as opposed to other times and places?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

How does our specific time and place encourage heterotelic goals as opposed to other times and places?
By accelerating everything. Overly simplistic model might have average American sending 25 of his "energy slaves" off on one task which is heterotelic to the task on which he simultaneously sent off his other 25 "energy slaves." In the past, unless you were in charge of a horde, like Genghis, you were strictly limited in your ability to simultaneously achieve conflicting objectives.

An example of a recommended practice which would serve as higher level counter to this would be Michael Pollan's suggestion that if you like treats, you might limit yourself to only eating treats that you bake from scratch*. OTOH, there is the example of bicycling clubs that will self-aware make their end destination something like a pancake house**. Because I am pretty solidly frugal, I am currently attempting a "diet" which involves simply not buying myself any more food until I lose 5 lbs***. (Wash/Rinse/Repeat.)

*This does not "work" for me, because I can bake treats fairly effortlessly.

**This does work for me, but requires a significant block of my time on a daily basis.

*** My prediction for failure for this specific tactic is around 92%, but will likely be an interesting experiment. Actually, my meta-diet/weight-loss plan at this juncture is one designed to take advantage of my innate curiousity, desire for variety and lack of tendency to consistently "identify" myself. IOW, my strategy is to frequently change/re-invent/randomize the "plan" in order to keep myself engaged/amused in the process.

guitarplayer
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by guitarplayer »

I’ll weave again the music theme to you journal’s jamming @jng.

Thank you (and @loutfard) for ideas on recording software. I am using cakewalk now as it is free and I already have it installed. It is being phased out (in favour of paid version) at some unspecified point in the future. So I will be moving on to something else. @jng it totally resonates with me about the sunken cost and the need to unlearn and learn a new system. I will experiment with both Reaper and Ardour. Have read about the makers and listened to a bit of a conversation between the two, my sort of people.

Related question about microphone: I want to improve my vocal by vocalising or singing and recording this, then listening back for feedback and iterating the loop. I read the state of art entry level mic is Shure SM58. However, I’d be keen to get a mic for free or on the cheap. I see heaps and heaps of microphones for cheap as a podcasting waste stream. Are these good enough for the purpose you recon? Example: blue yeti which I see for sale for about 25-30USD in the UK.

Last time I had been in touch with the technology in any depth was as a teenager nearly 20 years ago and I imagine technology improved since. So maybe any will do despite the ‘Shure myth’ (I just made this phrase up).

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

@guitarplayer: Sorry for falling off on the software question. Music stuff is something I am very much willing to pay for and recording gear is something where I want the best. I'm still at WL4 when it comes to music gear. My only solution is I do a lot of research and buy used. I rarely buy anything anymore though.

I don't have any experience with podcasting mics, so I'm not sure about the quality. An SM58 is a great mic, but it is the undisputed go to for live sound vocals. Every studio still has one because, compared to all other studio vocal mics, it is very cheap and every so often it's the right mic for a certain singer. It's mostly very loud singers, like a bar rock band or a rapper.

If you're trying to use a mic for practice as you say, any mic should work. If you've got a phone or laptop, that mic should work. Even though I have nice mics in my rehearsal space, I still record rehearsals on my iphone because of the ease of use.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

Thanks again to everyone who responded about heterotelic goals. This topic has been on my mind for the past few weeks. I'm trying to slowly work on my own heterotelic goals as I think about transitioning from WL6*-WL7.

*There are still more skills/ yields/ flows I want to build, but I'm starting to need to put them into a system that makes learning and executing skills more efficient.

After starting to work on reducing the conflicting outcomes of my goals, I was struck by a question. Why did a build a lifestyle with such strong conflict baked in? Why do I hold such strong internal conflict?

I hear what people are saying about evolution. Whether or not evolution programs for heterotelic goals is a bad question on my part. If we are the product of evolution and we have heterotelic goals, evolution must at least programs for the possibility of heterotelic goals.

What I'm interested in is how that heterotelicity comes to be so prominently expressed.


I was taught that people innately desired certain things which are unfortunately in conflict with other things they desire. Id vs. superego.

What I've been discovering, at least for myself as I work to undo this process, is that most of my "bad habits" are the result of a bad environment and not bad programming. There is evolutionary programming underlying everything, but this programming has been so far removed from the environment that it was originally built for and so purposefully manipulated against homotelicity, that primarily blaming the programming is counterproductive.



Let me start with the thing that unites us, finances. At the lower end of WL table we have someone who is purchasing new consumer goods that are marketed to them and financing these purchases through consumer debt. What is the inner-monologue of this person about finances likely to be?

I think they are likely to believe that they would be happier with more money. On some level, I think they will view themselves negatively if they were to make less money or lost money and positively if they got a raise or gained a large sum of money. Money becomes sacred to them, an indicator of all that is good and bad in the world. On some level money will become moralized. Good people deserve more money. Bad people deserve less.

A WL 0 person can work to earn more money. As lifestyle scales with money and consumer debt purchases expand, more money means more debt servicing, which makes the system more fragile, which requires more money. If they live in a rich country, it is likely they control more purchasing power than almost anyone in human history. In terms of technology, they can purchase with a fraction of their money what kings could only dream of a few hundred years ago.

And yet the WL 0 person, even if they know this factually, will be effectively blind to this. Their inner-monologue will consistently focus on earning more money to service more debt to get more stuff. They will teach their children the same, making it likely that this cycle will become intergenerational.

As noted in the Wheaton Level table structure, to someone several Wheaton Levels above, this behavior is almost literally insane. Why would anyone do this? I think it's because our environment is engineered for this to be the lowest energy pathway. We are taught from birth that money is roughly equal to happiness and that message is reinforced hundreds if not thousands of times a day. Buying new on consumer credit is normalized. In some circles it's weird not to do it. It's not only that this is the way we are taught to meet our needs, but also a certain framework for interpreting which of those needs are important to meet, which to focus on and which to ignore.

So we have someone who wants to have more money but acts in a heterotelic manner to this by wasting most of their money. What is the evolutionary/ biological mechanism at play? I'm guessing, from personal experience, that the person experiences pleasure (likely dopamine hits) when comparing consumer purchases and making a selection. My arm chair evolutionist explanation for this is that animals that took in resources from the environment survived at a higher rate than those who did not. As we were initially primarily hunter/ gatherers, some part of the search for new resources also feels good. The products our ultra-consumer purchases may also (and this need only exist as a belief in the ultra-consumer mind) help them fit into society in a more positive way. Status or perceived status in a hierarchical society confers resource and mating benefits.

Maybe my evolutionary reasoning is way off-base.

Whatever the evolutionary mechanism for accruing large amounts of consumer debt is, what knowledge do we gain from uncovering this process? It seems to me that we can now tell our consumer why they want something they shouldn't. We can explain the evolutionary mechanism behind their conflicting goals. The short-term immediate conflict will be that the person is robbed of the dopamine hits they got from comparing and buying consumer goods. Of course we EREers are so talented in this area that we can give them several tips and tricks to simply consume more efficiently, such as avoiding consumer debt, comparing prices and buying used. Presumably this adjustment is also experienced as painful. They are forever trapped between wanting the shiny consumer items evolution has programmed them for and needing to practice austerity from immediate gratification. They feel good when they buy something only to experience guilt that they didn't do a better job of buying it and spent money they didn't have.

The goal hasn't changed. Consumption through money is still the goal, the ultra-consumer is just now better at it. They experience the inner-conflict from occasionally consuming less, but also in thinking about purchasing choices more. Perhaps they are embarrassed to not have the newest thing. Perhaps it is more cognitive load to think about it. Whatever is happening, some part of their evolutionary wiring is pitted against another.

This actually sucks though. How likely is this person to succeed if I rob them of pleasure and induce greater internal conflict? Imo, the only hope that they change is that they already felt some internal conflict and we are merely providing the means to resolve that conflict. This method is pretty well designed to trap the ultra-consumer at WL2 or 3. The conflict they need to overcome is the urge to buy new things and buy things on credit. Assuming this is difficult for them, that part of them wants to do it and part of them doesn't want to do it, they can spend the next 50 years between times of "being good" and buying used and staying on a budget and "messing up" and buying new or going into debt.

The thing about this solution is from an ERE standpoint, it's not much of a solution. We've made them better at buying a bunch of stuff. This helps them reach their stated goal of having more money (=stuff=happiness) all without working harder. The problem is that buying a bunch of stuff you don't need won't make you happy. When the amount of money we need is always a little bit more, we never have enough money.

Imo, the better solution would be to persuade the ultra-consumer that consumption is not the road to happiness. Their heterotelic goal of wanting more money while wasting a ton of money isn't only counterproductive, it has no solution because it is based on poor assumptions. If we eventually get them to a place where they realize that the problem is not having too little money, but instead being convinced that we can buy happiness, and they not only understand this intellectually but understand it emotionally and bodily, then we can put money in its proper place and bring the ultra-consumer's goals into alignment.

In a way, we are asking them to overcome evolutionary programming, to stop accruing consumer goods, to remove the dopamine hit they are wired to receive by getting something new. But what I feel is the greater challenge is overcoming the cultural programming which subconciously encourages us to be ultra-consumers hundreds of times a day as well as a built environment that makes paying for solutions the lowest energy option. It's overcoming a culture which lost the ability to take care of itself without money several generations ago. Our past tells us that money is not necessary for human survival, yet that is not our present condition.

What the ultra-consumer is likely to do is tell us to fuck off. It's likely in the face of complaining about not having enough money, we can present them with the literal answer to their problems and they will not listen, only to complain about not having enough money while making an expensive purchase on credit. It's totally fine to not listen to me. It's totally fine to live your life with deep inner conflict and cognitive dissonance. If someone tells me that I'm wrong and mo money = mo pleasure, then I say "have it your way."

Now replace money with any goal. Working out. Not playing video games. Or use heterotelic goals. Working out but eating poorly. Trying to quit a vice but living a lifestyle devoid in some aspect so that vices are necessary. Why would we do this? There is an evolutionary device operating at some level, but I think a lot of it is living in a society and environment that exploits our biology rather than personal moral failings. We've been told our whole lives that we are lucky to live in this environment, but I'm becoming less and less convinced that we are. We've ratcheted up the technological solution chain so far that the average person could benefit simply by not wasting almost everything they're given. We've built an environment that addicts us to unhealthy food when we're children and necessitates travel by car and then berate ourselves for being out of shape.

Personally I don't believe anyone who says they want to eat cheetos and play video games for the rest of their lives. But if you tell me that's what you want, I say do it. If there is eventually a little voice inside your head telling you to be ashamed of your video games and cheetos lifestyle, I encourage you to ask that voice why. If the answer is "because our body feels bad and we're not doing that super cool thing we've dreamed of since we were kids" I encourage you to follow that advice and if the answer is "because playing video games and eating cheetos makes someone a bad and lazy person," I encourage you to reject that answer and ask again.

I don't think our bodies are wired solely for easy dopamine/ pleasure hits. I don't think that our base desires are a left over lower level trait from a pre-mammalian era. I think they were designed to work with our cognitive function within the environment they were designed for. If there is a failing it's not that we desire the wrong things, but that we designed our culture and environment to bias certain desires, while repressing others and punishing ourselves for the whole process.

If you want to stop eating cheetos and playing video games, I don't think feeling bad about it is going to get you very far. If you don't have a strong freedom-to, but still experience a strong freedom-from feeling, is your environment engineered to make you desire cheetos and video games? Are yu habituated to desiring these things? Cheetos and video games are absolutely designed to give you easy and addictive pleasure that taps into "weak points" in your evolutionary programming (weak only in the present environment designed to exploit them). We live in a world full of addictive substances designed to exploit our evolutionary programming, why did you pick those two? What aren't you getting that you get from them? Do you actually want to stop because of real conflict in your actual life or do you just feel that you should because someone convinced you not to trust yourself?

ertyu
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by ertyu »

There's the way the environment is structured, there's habituation, but that's not the end of it. It's often self-protective.

Consider a cheeto and video game basement dweller. By sticking to their cheetos and games, they don't have to face the fact that they're a loser. It's one thing to have a small voice telling you so (or even a large voice telling you so), it's another thing to actually try at whatever it is you really want and fail and be proven right. While you sit in your basement with your cheetos, you can still hold on to hope: that you -could- make it or do the thing if only you start, and you -will- start, but tomorrow. You don't have to start and try and have everyone laugh at you, cause look at that loser, lmao, how pathetic he looks trying. Plus, it's not -your- fault. It's the immigrants stealing your jobs, it's shallow women who only want chads, it's feminism that's taught them not to know their place and value family, it's that you're short and so the world is stacked against you, it's that you weren't born with a strong jaw so you can never be a chad, etcetera etcetera. You're stuck in your basement, but you're safe from the humiliation of trying and from having to face that your fears about what a loser you are. In this person's psychology, they're the closest to success when they're failing, and there's multiple grifters more than happy to take advantage and provide them with ersatz feelings of self-esteem.

You could say anything about the dude in the above example, but he is not uncommon in the slightest. Enough like him exist to keep a small army of "influencers" in business and a small tribe of grifter politicians in power. This is why I keep insisting that the key is psychology: until one gets honest with oneself (yes, via the forum-wide hated practice of navel-gazing :D ) and faces one's shit, one isn't going anywhere. This is another reason why someone who's white-knuckling it will eventually give up and fail: the psychology isn't in place.

I'm not arguing against your points that you made above, only adding to them. In the end, whatever the cause is, the solution is always the same. The first step is brutal self-honesty: What am I really doing? Why? Only then can I figure out that it's not actually serving me.

zbigi
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by zbigi »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:38 pm
If the answer is "because our body feels bad and we're not doing that super cool thing we've dreamed of since we were kids" I encourage you to follow that advice and if the answer is "because playing video games and eating cheetos makes someone a bad and lazy person," I encourage you to reject that answer and ask again.
Do people really dream about doing some super cool thing when they're kids? I don't think it's universal, and probably just a part of American (or, in general, Western-protestant) culture? I for sure was not dreaming about doing anything cool when I was a kid. I don't think any of my friends were. We were just playing outside, reading comic books, playing with our 8-bit computers, riding our bikes into the forest, swimming in nearby lakes etc. Just regular stuff I guess. I didn't hear anyone talking about any kind of plans for when they will grow up, much less ambitious ones. Did you dream of doing something cool when you were say 10 or 12?

ertyu
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by ertyu »

At 10, no, but at 12-13 I dreamt of getting to wear alternative clothes and going to metal concerts and hanging out smoking and drinking w the older metalhead "cool kids" that my stupid parents prevented me from hanging out with because of their stupid curfew :lol: :lol:

Not v deep, this guy :lol:

thef0x
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by thef0x »

ertyu wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:28 pm
I'm not arguing against your points that you made above, only adding to them. In the end, whatever the cause is, the solution is always the same. The first step is brutal self-honesty: What am I really doing? Why? Only then can I figure out that it's not actually serving me.
My reading of what J+G is saying is that he believes our culture contributes or reinforces the problem, so if part of the cause is culture or situation, then in some respect the solution may be to update culture / change the situation.

On a super local level, I agree with you that ultimately you just have to figure out for yourself how to manage these inherited cultural myths.

@J+G one metaphor Artistotle came up with was that you're born on a raft floating down a river. The logs on the raft are the myths/inherited beliefs of your culture. It's your job as a virtuous person to test each log and see if it's keeping your afloat or just dead weight.

Ultimately I think? what you're after is not to blame culture generally but change your culture locally, so to that degree, the metaphor might be to strip all the dead wood and then go and harvest your own and make the raft into a cool pirate ship to hang out with friends and share your plunder. Everyone onboard buys into your local mythos; you all almost forget what it's like "on land".

This practice, in a real way, is the "doing" of practical philosophy. Testing stuff out to see what's true, or maybe better stated, what's useful* vs useless.

Maybe what you're after is trying to influence how people build rafts for future generations?

Feel free to ditch the metaphor but curious if you're more "trying to unravel how it [whatever governs our propensity for homeotelic/heterotelic action] works" vs "trying to change the future"?

Appreciate you hosting this topic, J+G. I don't yet know/understand the ERE2.0 stuff but this sounds like it would be wading into that..




* American pragmatism is a cool tradition that I do not have a lot of knowledge about. Fast to digest visual here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pei ... _221648985

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

Thanks for the comments everyone!


What I'm saying is that on:

Level 1: There is no morality. There is no judgement. The cheetos basement dweller is not a loser because there are no losers or winners. There is only action and reaction. We are not constrained by what we should do, we are constrained by reality. The cheetos and video games guy is simply a cheetos and video games guy.

Level 2a: This is the level of internal judgement. This is the level of heterotelic goals. If the video game and cheetos player complains about not being able to do something that is because they spend their life consuming cheetos and playing video games, they are failing at this level.

Level 2b: This is the level of societal judgement. We are only examining the individual, so this level is only important in so far as it either effects possibilities (as people's beliefs and judgements will have actionable, level 1 consequences) or the internal state of the individual at level 2a.


Let's first look at someone who operates purely at level 1. They live in a world of needing very little. They still need to meet their physiological needs, but this is easy in modern culture. They need to meet their safety needs, but again this is easy. Let's assume to meet these needs they are either FI or received a small inheritance. They have leveraged the marvels of the modern world into a world where they only need to expend energy eating cheetos and play video games. They accept the long-term bodily detriment, the social isolation. They have correctly run the cost benefit analysis on themselves and eating cheetos and playing video games is what they truly desire. Their only constraint is reality and they have tamed reality to give them what they want.


I realize this is unlikely, but I only need them to exist as an idea, as a possibility.

The much more likely thing is that our cheetos and video game player is as described by @ertyu. At level 2a he feels like a loser. At level 2b he is judged to be a loser. And he cares about what people think and is deprived of things he values because of his loser status. My initial question is, why would someone chose to keep doing this to themselves? The loser status is not an actual state of being (level 1), it is a judgement.

While this is an extreme example, this is effectively what anyone with heterotelic goals is doing. And yet simply pointing out that their goals are heterotelic is as unlikely to spur change as telling the basement dweller he'd increase his chances of getting laid if he went outside.WHY?

The answer I came up with (with help!), which is rather obvious, is that the basement dweller's emotions and pleasure systems are being hijacked. His only pleasure comes from the pleasure engineers at cheetos and video game inc who engineered their products to be addictive to anyone with a pleasure deficiency. There are literally thousands of products of this nature around at all times which we are encouraged hundreds or thousands of times a day to engage with. He lives in a culture which tells him that cheetos and video games are a normal part of life and tells him he should be able to stop on his own. He was likely introduced to these addictive substances when he was a child.

Why do I think this is important? Because pointing out that he is a loser or that he should "just stop playing video games and eating cheetos" while factually correct, assumes that he is able to operate at level 1. And if he operated at level 1, why would he be doing this? While occasionally people are really blind to themselves and simply pointing out the contradiction in their lives is all they need, this is untrue like 99% of the time. Because most of the time we are getting fucked with at level 2a by ourselves and others (level 2b).

I also think that saying that it's an evolutionary problem, while technically true, misses a lot of what is happening. It's not that, whoops, our lizard brain likes things that taste and feel good, an accident of evolution, if only we could override that with our cognitive brains. It's that these things used to be evolutionarily valuable and not worth the cognitive energy to avoid and now some d-bag who is probably dead figured out how to hijack that system and sell us a bunch of bullshit and our whole system is based on us doing this to each other over and over again.

Evolution seems like it implies a level 1 problem. Overcome your lizard brain with the mighty cognitive brain. Winners will figure it out. Losers will remain in the basement.

It seems to me a more productive outlook is to acknowledge that while our evolutionarily developed traits are playing a role, our environment is stacked against us. I think trying to stop is unlikely to succeed, instead the brain needs to be rewired to receive pleasure from things more homeotelic to the individuals interests. That and some of the navel gazing that @ertyu suggests to figure out exactly how the brain has been miswired by the marvels of the modern world.

ertyu
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by ertyu »

My point is that in addition to his brain and reward circuits being hijacked, and in addition to needing to sort through a bunch of "cultural dead wood" as per thef0x, we also come with a bunch of psychological defense mechanisms that, as long as they stay unquestioned and unconscious, can really fuck us over. These psychological defense mechanisms keep us trapped in situations where it appears like they protect our egos, but this is at the expense of our growth as people. In addition, these mechanisms aid the various hijackers in their hijacking. Thus a key part of moving towards homotelic goals, in addition to all else that's been mentioned, is to do the psychological work of making these unconscious defense mechanisms conscious -- this is step one of overcoming them. Without this, I don't think any behavioral change will actually stick. The person will keep self-sabotaging to return to "ego safety."

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

Ah, yes, I completely agree with you @ertyu!

How I think of it is that our culture does not fully prepare us to be complete humans. It sets a lot of traps while telling us to love those traps. One of these traps is that our culture is emotionally immature. We don't learn how to process or regulate our emotions in an adult fashion. I think many swing between periods of deep repression and occasional outbursts. This is presented as normal with few viable alternatives in sight.

thef0x
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by thef0x »

IMO, at scale, this dialog becomes a general discussion about "should we be allowed to poison* ourselves?" and "should other people be able to make tons of money creating addictive products that make us heterotelic?"

Culturally, it's "should the dick-measuring contest be about house size?"

Edit/addendum:

Also I think you might be giving the average person a bit too much credit -- this mindset that a lot of folks here have about their lives, integration, excellence, expansion... it's really really uncommon.

I'm not sure that most folks are wired to be able to achieve these types of outcomes / systematically think about their lives. Not a judgement or dig on anyone. This is just really hard. Resisting the system it really hard. Forging a new path is really hard.

We're the weirdos.

So on a grander scale the question might be: if, optimistically, only 10% of people are ever going to "get it" and adopt a culturally "complete human" attitude (right now its safe to say its under 1% of humans), is that enough of a mass of people to sway mass opinion/culture/systems?

Maybe people really are all able to ascend to a higher level of thinking and maybe on the grandest scale, we can firmware-upgrade humanity to something better, more enlightened. Steven Pinker's work tracking human progress makes me optimistic on this maybe?

I think @Jacob talks about the dissemination of this change happening as a decentralized paradigm shift. So instead of a revolution, it's a gradation we strive toward, with pockets of "getting it" slowly emerging.

Maybe each of us are our own little seeds of change. My wife's plunder has changed her friend to default shop via bin hunting at good will and your thread is making me reconsider dumpster diving.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:55 am
... our culture does not fully prepare us to be complete humans.
Looking forward to keep reading about what you envision a complete human being looks like.



* "do heterotelic action".

7Wannabe5
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

thefOx wrote:Culturally, it's "should the dick-measuring contest be about house size?"
This is huge. The emotional/social development/skillz way to circumvent/transcend it would be to figure out how to be the sort of guy about whom a long-term-committed female partner might say "He is my home.", and/ or with whom a short-term partner would enjoy having bare-azz sex in the woods because your "stance" has her "covered" Also, creativity, flexibility, and artistry can also go a good ways towards providing/protecting high quality "house/shelter" without wasting a ton of resources. For example, my Permaculture Partner turned his duplex which he probably purchased for around $60,000 max into something that could have been featured in Dwell magazine using mostly discards and DIY. He also had the ability to cook gourmet meals utilizing fresh produce from his garden. Huge contrast with typical recently divorced middle-aged guy digs and meal presentation. He also rowed every day and projected a good deal of physical confidence, so although we did not share a "he is my home" sort of relationship, I felt very safe roaming around anywhere in the city with him. If you are having to buy or even chip-in 60/40 for a McMansion and International Resort Vacations in order to make contact/contract with female(s), either you are core way out of your league or you are not doing enough of the above or maybe you secretly want the McMansion/IRVs yourself, but it is convenient to blame the female.

IOW, I am going to hold firm on the notion that if you are the one choosing to carry the masculine energy in relationship, then it is your job to provide "house/shelter/back-closer-to-the-danger" whether for just-that-evening or rest-of-our-lives , but this notion/obligation can be extremely widely defined/fulfilled.

ertyu
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by ertyu »

This is maybe a bit of a tangent, but I've been reading Gradual Awakening by the judgily self-righteous Miles Neale. It's a good book if one can ignore the judgy self-righteousness, which, being on this forum, most should be able to do :lol: . I recommend it.

The book is a "for noobs" description of the traditional Tibetan System of meditation. Maybe I was primed by this convo, but as I was reading it occurred to me that 1. what the Tibetan buddhists got going is a homotelic system for achieving enlightenment -- thus the author's insistence not to take meditation as an isolated gimmick but to consider the system in its totality, with its full recommendations about lifestyle, ritual, practices, ways of thinking, etc (sound familiar? :D ), and 2. The tibetans were also very concerned with heterotelic behavior - why it arises and what can be done about it.

They saw heterotelic behavior as the cause of suffering, and saw the fact that we see ourselves as separate, threatened individuals who need to grasp as they operate under conditions of scarcity as the cause of that heterotelic behavior. Under their framework, we operate heterotelically because we do not have correct understanding of reality. We think we're obtaining pleasure, etc., which causes us to strive and grasp, when all we're really doing is shooting ourselves in the foot.

It's interesting to me that 1. systems thinking as the optimal way to achieve a first order goal and 2. the problem of heterotelicity have been with humanity for thousands of years.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Damn it Feels Good to be a Gangsta

Post by Jin+Guice »

Interdependent Temporary Autonomous Zones

Thanks to @theanimal for this article: Money As Addiction

and 

@AH for this book: Temporary Autonomous Zone

The blog post and book gave me some new ideas about pathological culture aka the culture of separation.

"Money as Addiction" points out that the things I labeled "needs of modernity" are actually not optional. Here's the basic idea (this is very similar to Jacob's ideas about "the lock-in" from the ERE book): We invent a new "time saving" technology. The technology relatively rapidly becomes part of our culture and day to day lives. We adapt our world so that, instead of saving time, technology allows us to "do more." Pretty quickly the "doing more" part of the technology becomes a new baseline state of the world, where one needs to be able to "do more" to get their basic needs met.

The article uses the example of cars. Before cars, traveling long distances took a long time. This limits the options of where food is obtained from, where work is done and social interactions to a comparatively small radius (that never seemed small before cars). Cars come along. Now we can get all of that stuff super fast, because cars are so much faster than all preceding forms of transit. There is no traffic because there aren't that many cars. Everything is close together because of previous slower forms of transportation.

If the technology is adopted, as cars were, they integrate into our lives. It used to take an hour to walk to work that was 3 miles away. It now takes an hour to drive to work 30 miles away. As cars move from convenience to necessity, more and more people have cars, which requires more and more infrastructure, which locks cars into our lives. We now spend a lot of time stuck in traffic, instead of walking or riding a horse.
 
We spend a lot of time and money traveling in cars, storing them, repairing them and maintaining road networks. What once enriched now impoverishes us. This is similar to Joseph Tainter's idea that societies eventually reach a point of complexity where all resources are spent on maintenance. What I propose is that this happens with technology. The more fervently a technology is adopted, the more of our time and resources go to maintaining this technology. Rinse and repeat over thousands of years. Speed it up by discovering and tapping into vast energy stores of ancient sunlight (a tech that is now VERY locked-in).

We now imagine a deficit in the past. We imagine past people having to walk for 10 hours to go 30 miles, when in reality, there was little reason to do this very often. It's difficult to imagine a world where cars aren't necessary because it's the only world we know.

"Money as Addiction" uses smoking as an analogy. At first the author started smoking to relax, have a social outlet and get a small nicotine buzz. Pretty quickly smoking developed into a habit. What was once something that enhanced his life moving him from 0 to 1, now became something he needed, effectively setting his new baseline to -1. Something that was once a release, an improvement, became necessity, a costly addiction to be maintained.

The article also speaks about interdependence, specifically, local interdependence. Interdependence is relying on other people to meet your needs while they rely on you to meet their needs*. Our current system relies on global interdependence among specialists based on the money system. I do some very niche job with other niche specialists (who are often largely strangers) and I get my needs taken care of by other niche specialists (strangers) I pay.

*A pernicious strain of dependence is codependence, when you rely on someone to meet your needs but become subconsciously convinced that you cannot live without them (anxiety). This generally leads to being "abused" (in the therapy sense, where very small transgressions are abuse). When someone cannot stand up for themselves or detach from their "abuser" they are exhibiting codependence. They believe the other person is imparting boundaries on them, when in reality they are imparting boundaries on themselves. This is a very deep and subtle psychological subject, that goes beyond what I can say in this paragraph, but the type of dependence we seek is the non-codependent variety.

Money is a technology of interdependence that has become locked-in. We are no longer trained to meet our needs in non-monetary ways. Local interdependent networks have disappeared, replaced by the vast global money network.

Money and capitalism are very efficient ways to exchange goods with strangers. We've lost the cultural ability to get our needs met without tapping into the money network. We've lost the ability to not have our needs met by services rendered and goods produced by people we do not know. We no longer meet our needs by producing goods ourselves and by sharing things with a tight knit community of close relations.

The money network is more efficient at mass producing generic goods and services than any of us could ever hope to be in our smaller communities. We gain access to networks of specialists and tap into economies of scale (which are more efficient but also lock-in homogenization). This network catalyzes ever more technological advancement (economic growth can only come from increasing efficiency of existing factors of production or technological growth. As factors of production become maximized, this reduces to economic growth only coming from new technology*) as it is designed currently to seek economic growth.

*GDP can be artificially inflated by taking cultures or goods/ services that used to exist in the non-monetary economy and adding them to the monetary economy

As capitalism and monetary technology became locked-in to our culture, what was once an efficient way to trade a few specialty goods with strangers, became an everyday necessity. Much like the technological lock-in of the car largely destroyed our ability to walk to get the things we need, the technological lock-in of money has destroyed our ability to get what we need from local interdependence.

As the money network was locked-in and local interdependence destroyed, economic growth came to be seen as the most important factor for any culture. The technological advancement process, which had already existed for long periods of human history, was sped up by the efficiency of the monetary system (and its partner technologies, fossil fuel extraction and exploitation). 

Enter ERE and FIRE. FIRE takes as a baseline the interdependent money system, but notes that we have built and locked-in several technologies on top of this system which are very expensive to maintain and also unnecessary. The luxury of cars used to be getting somewhere faster than everyone else. As cars became ubiquitous, the luxury became small improvements in the aesthetic and comfort values of cars and their associated social signals of status. As financing, once a tool to access funds for business ideas, became available to consumers, one's ability to purchase things became limited only by their ability to make monthly payments to various creditors.

FIRE notes that a once efficient system has become highly inefficient. Much of the status is a perceived battle in our heads. A very nice luxury car may still confer status, but that status is achieved by it being too expensive for most people. The rest of us now drive "modest" SUVs in the hopes of emulating this status. We still finance them in an everlasting battle to stay almost imperceptibly ahead of the Joneses. While we still must deal with the locked-in car-centric technology of a physically dispersed network, there are several layers of inefficiency we can shake by refocusing on the original goal of a car, which was to get from one point to another quickly. A cheap car can be obtained for the price of a few of the monthly payments on an ultra-truck and a bicycle can be obtained for less than one monthly payment.

FIRE is a combination of strategies for hacking the existing money network, highlighting many glaring inefficiencies that barely serve or actively harm us.

ERE takes this notion a step further, noting that the global distribution network we rely on is fragile to intermittent disruption. It creates new problems while "solving" old ones and is likely to self-destruct from many of its own long-term effects. ERE teaches us to build local resilience, first by using the hacks of FIRE and then by relearning the skills we need to take care of ourselves. ERE generally still relies on the globally interdependent money network, as this tech has become so locked-in that ignoring it is virtually impossible. The money system provides some very real efficiency upgrades to what one can do at home. Discovering these efficiencies becomes as vital a part of building resilience as discovering the inefficiencies (heat from fossil-fuels and cast iron pans we can't build ourselves.... still pretty efficient.... single use egg cookers not so much).

WL6+ ERE seeks to build individual resilience through building skills around the parts of the money system which are inefficient. ERE views the money system through a lens of resiliency, so personal resilience beyond raw monetary efficiency is highly encouraged. As each person thinks differently, values different things and has different underlying talents and already developed skills, this journey is different for everyone. 

People often get stuck at WL5, which is the point of maximum personal efficiency in the globally interdependent money system. The money system is often much more efficient at delivering generic goods or services than a personal DIY system is. This is especially true for educated specialists who live in rich countries and earn a high salary, meaning their specialization is highly compensated in comparison to other specialists. This is reinforced in people who are trained from birth to become specialists and in some cases lack the knowledge to meet almost any of their basic needs outside of the money system.

For me, breaking out of WL5 came from two sources of inspiration:

While generic goods and services are more efficiently delivered by the money system, quality goods and services are often not. I can buy a really great meal from a local restaurant for a very high price or I can get a crappy meal from a chain restaurant for significantly less. Alternatively, I can spend some time cooking a better and more nutritious meal at home, though likely not beating the best specialists in their field (not always impossible though). It's the focus on quality that makes cooking at home efficient, but that quality takes some skill.

The second source of inspiration: specialization is fucking boring. Once one gets over the hump of having no skills, it's much more fun and flow-inducing to be one's own personal chef, handyman and maid. It's much more satisfying to sit in a chair one built themselves or eat food one grew themselves than to purchase these products with revenue from a boring, frustrating and controlling job.

ERE is at a point now where some have hit the boundaries of what they can achieve as autonomous or household resilience units. Some projects simply require more man power. Different things emerge when groups of people get together. I think the challenge we face in building even a small ERE group is the challenge of local interdependence. We've figured out how to inspire personal "interdependence" (independence through self-reliance) but have yet to foster local interdependence among personally independent people. The hurdles to overcome are: 1) the general removal of examples of interdependence by the money system; 2) the inefficiency of local interdependence vs the locked-in globally interdependent monetary system and 3) the disincentive towards communal interdependence that will naturally arise from people who are strongly independent AND relative masters of the global interdependence network.



This post is also inspired by the book "Temporary Autonomous Zone" (TAZ). The book I linked above describes TAZs but does not define them. The message of TAZs is building temporary anarchist zones, which by hook or crook are partially or fully beyond the reach of government control. Large scale attempts at revolution leave a power vacuum which more often than not leaves the door open for an even more oppressive governmental regime. Rather than wait for revolution, find ways to subvert the status quo. The impermanence of these solutions makes controlling them all the more difficult. 

I like this concept for both me personally and for ERE. How do we temporarily build spaces that are beyond the all encompassing consumer praxis? What would that mean for us individually, in small groups and on the whole as a community?

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