How to be a Cheap Date: Ideas For Free, Creative and Frugal Dates

[ebast]

Work towards this look (with a bit of modernization of the blouson) and you'll get all the cheap dates you could possibly want.

The most conspicuous feature of European poetry is its pre-occupation with love. This is apparent not only in actual "love-poems," but in all poetry where the personality of the writer is in any way obtruded. The poet tends to exhibit himself in a romantic light; in fact, to recommend himself as a lover.

The Chinese poet has a tendency different but analogous. He recommends himself not as a lover, but as a friend. He poses as a person of infinite leisure (which we should most like our friends to possess) and free from worldly ambitions (which constitute the greatest bars to friendship). He would have us think of him as a boon companion, a great drinker of wine, who will not disgrace a social gathering by quitting it sober.

To the European poet, the relation between man and woman is a thing of supreme importance and mystery. To the average Chinese poet it is something commonplace, obvious—a need of the body, not a satisfaction of the _emotions_. These he reserves entirely for friendship. I have been criticized for saying something like this; but the vast mass of classical Chinese poetry amply confirms my view. Accordingly we find that while our poets tend to lay stress on physical courage and other qualities normally admired by women, Po Chü-i is not ashamed to write such a poem as "Alarm at entering the Gorges." Our classical poets imagine themselves very much as Art has portrayed them—bareheaded and wild-eyed, with shirts unbuttoned at the neck as though they feared that a seizure of emotion might at any minute suffocate them.

[7Wannabe5]

@ebast:

I'm a bit confused by Waley's comments since my brief perusal of his translations from the Chinese revealed no shortage of poems with romantic perspective. OTOH, his comment may be indicative of agreement with the point that I am trying to make, because it may be reflective of the lower status held by Chinese women in the era from which he drew most of the poetry he translated, versus that of European women during the era of the Romantics. The literacy rate of even moderately affluent Chinese men was high due to the institution of the Civil Service Exams; male children were more desired due to the fact that they traditionally cared for their parents in old age, while females were absorbed in their husband's family; and polygyny (not polamory!!!)was widely practiced through the addition of concubines, often from families of lower status than that of legal wife who might bring dowry, to the household. IOW, Chinese heterosexual men had a highly favorable mating/marriage market during that era, so they didn't have to bother much about their appeal to the female. Whereas, these a days, as members of the "manosphere" bemoan, and Hakim confirms with her notes on the erotic deficit faced by 21st century men in modern/post-modern cultures, men find themselves in a less favorable market, so some attention paid to the qualities preferred by females (as opposed to the qualities males would prefer for females to prefer) would likely be of value to the frugal dating heterosexual male.

Obviously, the cover art on a popular romance novel is likely to be towards "overkill", but let me note a few details:

1) He is displaying extremely fit V shape of body. Cost to frugal male to acquire this quality: $0 with bodyweight exercises and/or bags found in dumpster filled with sand. Fairly obvious why this quality would be appealing to females, although there is a good deal of variability in preference for wider or slimmer form of strong V shape. For instance, I would like to view his "guns" hidden behind the loose blouson, rather than his abdomen.

2) His hair/beard style combines an appealing mix of mature and boyish masculine qualities due to strong 5:00 shadow and "boy band" bangs: Maybe $20 for pair of scissors and appropriate razor combined with a book from the library on topic of cutting your own hair.

3) The "hard" look in his eyes is well correlated with rising levels of testosterone. This wolfish "predator" like facial expression also serves to contrast with the "puppy-like" drape of his hair-style and the sensitive placement of his hand on the chair arm: Cost $0: practice in mirror, experiment in public setting such as bar. I would suggest this sort of predator look followed by confident grin followed by temporary distraction followed by relaxed approach as most likely to be effective.

4) His clothing and surroundings are elegant, but subdued in color. Some expense likely required, but thoroughly in alignment with ERE note to purchase quality over quantity of wardrobe: Well-fitting jeans, crisp white oxford shirt, decent boots, and a good watch or other solid masculine piece on wrist, such as a leather cuff bracelet would serve well for most first-date purposes.


A couple other important differences to be found between romance novels and porn would be the inclusion of Narrative and Build.

Narrative: Imagine that your date is meeting her 3 best female friends at a cafe for brunch the Sunday after the Friday night she had a date with you. Give her a story she can tell them that she wants to tell, whether naughty or nice or some combination of the two. IOW, consider how the totality of your behavior if known to others would effect her Social/Erotic/Cultural capital store.

Build: Although it is important to convey friendliness and respect on a first or second date and consent is mandatory, you should also attempt to clearly convey that you are sexually interested in ways that "build" throughout the encounter, or over the course of several dates. I have fairly frequently been on "blind" first dates with men I "met" online where I have no clue whether he is interested until he asks me for another date or suggests that we continue our coffee meet-greet with dinner or another activity. Unfortunately, it seems like men are actually often more likely to completely rein in their sexuality, temporarily put it "in a box", when dating women who they are "seriously" considering, when it would likely be more appealing to clearly display interest, but also control. If you ask any reasonably intelligent woman whether the fact that a man has asked her out on a second date is indicative of likelihood of sexual desire on his part, her rational response would be "Yes" but it wouldn't be gut-level "Duh" like it would be for most men. So, weird hard-line where your behavior suddenly becomes very sexual on a third date, even when consent is overtly requested, can be just as disconcerting as on a first date. It's the psyco-emotional equivalent of "Wham-Bam" with little foreplay.

Provision of Narrative and Build: Expense =$0 with some practice and creativity.

[Slevin]

1) He is displaying extremely fit V shape of body. Cost to frugal male to acquire this quality: $0 with bodyweight exercises and/or bags found in dumpster filled with sand. Fairly obvious why this quality would be appealing to females, although there is a good deal of variability in preference for wider or slimmer form of strong V shape. For instance, I would like to view his "guns" hidden behind the loose blouson, rather than his abdomen.

2) His hair/beard style combines an appealing mix of mature and boyish masculine qualities due to strong 5:00 shadow and "boy band" bangs: Maybe $20 for pair of scissors and appropriate razor combined with a book from the library on topic of cutting your own hair.

This is like putting out a picture of a Victoria's secret model, and implying you too could get those looks and that hair for $0, if you just "tried hard enough". If that was true, endless industries wouldn't exist telling you "yeah you could just look like that if you tried a bit and used our product". Because everyone would do it and it wouldn't be hard.I've worked with / trained with / hung out with a lot of professional athletes. The amount of them that look like this guy: ~5%. Of the professional athletes who are paid to do this. Basically you need to starve yourself in a very specific (and relatively expensive) way, and only weight / resistance train in an incredibly specific way.

While it might *technically* cost $0, in practice that is several thousand hours of work for those who do well in the genetic lottery, and basically impossible for those who didn't pull that number in the genetic lotto. I've literally watched guys go down to health worrying levels of bodyfat % on their "meat only diets", and they mostly didn't look that good. If you take steroids, and are a good responder, then probably you could look like that with only hundreds of hours of effort.

There is also a subset of guys who just *do* look that good, without trying that hard. Very Frustrating to us mere mortals. They are usually the ones with the Youtube channels and selling specific supplements, etc, etc.

I'm reminded of the Liver King taking 11k worth of supplements, PER MONTH, to look like he did. And he was already given top % muscle genetics before that.

As to the hair and the smile thing........... Usually those of us blessed with high testosterone show it on our heads .

[zbigi]

Not to mention, people who go into low body fat in order to show muscle, often lose a lot of face fat too and in result look less atractive. The combo displayed on the picture above (lean body and non-starving face) is not that common and is strictly a matter of genetics or plastic surgery.

[chenda]

You don't need to look like a model just healthy and better than your peer group which for men is increasingly easy as they have a tendency to become fat overweight slobs as they get older.

@yup, fat doesn't crack as they say. Which is another good reason not to get fat in the first place and establish a false baseline.

[white belt]

Basically you need to starve yourself in a very specific (and relatively expensive) way, and only weight / resistance train in an incredibly specific way.

Pretty much this. The most impactful thing that the average guy can do to improve date prospects related to health is likely just to lose some weight because it is a much faster process to lose weight than to gain muscle. For example, you could spend ~8 weeks eating in a slight caloric deficit (maybe losing .5-1% BW a week), ensuring sufficient protein intake, and doing some resistance training so you lose mostly fat and not muscle. This will have a dramatic impact on your appearance to the point that everyone in your life will notice and some might even comment that you are looking much more muscular/fit. Combine this with some aerobic/anaerobic work so you can do outdoor/physical date activities and you'll be miles ahead of the typical competition** (also useful for bedroom activities). If you instead try to gain muscle (and likely also gain some fat if you're in a caloric surplus), after about 8 weeks you will look roughly the same. Building noticeable amounts of muscle naturally is a gradual process that takes years unless you have top 1% genetics. Even then, in most cases you can have an idea of someone who has genetics for building muscle because they generally already carry a lot of muscle on their frame even without training.

I have decent genetics for muscle building and have done multiple muscle gain phases and fat loss phases. By far the most noticeable change is after a fat loss phase, when I got a lot of comments about how I looked bigger/more muscular than when I started despite the fact that I weighed less. Also most people vastly overestimate how lean they are, so unless you have visible abs you probably aren't <15% BF as a guy. 10-12% is considered "beach lean" with visible abs and maybe around what cover guy is on an average day, although it's difficult to tell because of the lighting and without seeing the rest of his body (also keep in mind that models will "peak" for a shoot). Hormone disruptions usually don't start to happen until sub 10% BF, assuming you follow the commonly advised bodybuilder/fitness guidelines in place for a fat loss period. E.g. if you're starting at 25% BF it's going to take you several fat loss and maintenance phases to get down to 10% and you might have a harder time getting there depending on genetics, but even just getting down to 20% BF will be a noticeable improvement in your appearance/health.


* = The exception would be if you are already very lean, but in that case you are probably already very active and should just verify you are in fact eating sufficient macro/micro nutrients first.
** = Unless your competition is the guy on the cover, then I'd recommend trying to emphasize other positive traits and compete in domains with lower quality competition

[7Wannabe5]

This is like putting out a picture of a Victoria's secret model, and implying you too could get those looks and that hair for $0, if you just "tried hard enough".

Yeah, as I noted cover of a romance novel is going to be "overkill", and being subjected to the "feminine gaze" sucks almost as hard as being subjected to the "masculine gaze" (for most women, pretty much constantly since about age 12.) However, even though the market is not what it once was under maximum Classical Era Chinese patriarchy, study after study indicates that is is still the case that women are much more likely to accept a mixed basket of capitals in the mating/marriage market than men, so you guys still have it relatively easy in terms of optionality, so insert sound of world's tiniest violin I was just trying to point out the direction towards what might work for somebody who is young, casually dating, can't play guitar for shit, and doesn't want to spend any money. The last time I interacted with a male with abs that flat, Reagan was still in his first term of office.

However, I do find this cutie a bit hawter after his recent makeover. As you can see, he is also following a few of my other suggestions:



The reason I mentioned the hairstyle in particular is that it's such an oddly particular thing that women find the bangs-in-eyes look attractive, because "puppyish." A man with a shaved head could try to add a bit of "cute" vulnerability to his appeal by maybe adding something "skater-boy" to his ensemble, or by being just a bit attractively rumpled. The urge to "fix" the "bangs-in-eyes" is kind of like the urge to fix his tie. Mature men can sub out biceps for abs, and I know it isn't that difficult to get some reasonably appealing arm muscles with a reasonable amount of rowing and/or 500 push-ups every day. When I mentioned in my old dating profile that I was looking for the 3 "I"s, Intelligence, Initiative. and BIceps, approximately 80% of the guys I met for coffee, spontaneously rolled up their sleeve to exhibit what I like. IOW, give her two reasons to want to touch you. One that is a bit too "hawt" like those abs, or just some decent biceps, and one that is more approachable like messy hair or tie askew.

I would note for the record that I am currently definitely not in prime dating shape myself, but I don't kid myself about what "works' in that realm. It would be the same, despite the many differences, if I was a member of any other species that benefits through the mathematically sound practice of sexual reproduction (as opposed to asexual reproduction.) Just the fact that I casually noted my (at-the-time) .72 Waist-to-Hip ratio in the same dating profile in which I sought men with biceps greatly increased my pool of inquiries. If I was as hard-up as many in the "manosphere" claim to be, I would likely even go so far as posting a dating profile picture in which I revealed some cleavage, since studies indicate that lends the equivalent of approximately "10 years younger" to a profile's appeal, even though I lack the natural knack for accessorizing possessed by my age peers who know how to simultaneously reveal cleavage and hide neck wrinkles through artful utilization of scarf. I wonder whether duct tape might work as frugal substitute for neck-lift for photographic purposes?

[zbigi]

@7, given your recent studies and your big interest in dating dynamics, you should be a data scientist for a dating app. Although they'd probably prefer a guy, since it's guys who have it hard there, to the extend of paying to get preferrential treatments (IOW, men are customers, while women are product - same dynamic as in many night clubs, where women are not charged the entry free).

[chenda]

@7 would actually want to help men, whereas Tinder Plc just want to exploit them to make money.

[7Wannabe5]

@zbigi:

Why wouldn't I use my skillz to create my own ideal dating app? Snap, somebody already did it!

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/ ... ed-readers

Klerb has already been dubbed Tinder for bookworms because it matches you with people in your area according to your shared interests in books.

For those looking for love, a prospect’s bookshelves can be a minefield. What if they just read the wrong books? “I generally don’t care, but I did once go back to a guy’s house post-date, and the only book I could see was Fifty Shades of Grey,” says Alice Furse, publicity manager at a publisher.

“To be clear, I was more concerned about his taste than the possibility of kinks.”

Or even worse, what if they don’t have any books at all? The film-maker John Waters famously said: “If you go home with somebody and they don’t have books, don’t fuck ’em.”

I actually did briefly date one man in his late 50s whose abs (and associated stamina) were top-notch for age group due to his favorite, frequently practiced activity from childhood being biking. Unfortunately, he had no books in his house, so our conversation was limited to anecdote.

Another idea for a dating app I had would be based on my experience as soft,shapely female who has often been actively pursued by much more athletic men (and also a female weight-lifter who made me do crunches on inclined board and then asked me to shower with her) who think they can move me from shapely to "in shape." Sometimes allowing my partner to function as my fitness coach has actually worked for me and produced gratifying results. I've also noted that one of the top reasons* why single females (including me)will currently not be dating anybody is that they are not happy with their appearance. Therefore, I think an app that directly pairs up men who are in good shape with women who want to get in better shape might work if it weren't for the fact that most women want to be validated for their appearance from the get-go when dating. Men could also be paired up with women who would function as their life-stylist, if they were open to change. One of the most attractively "styled" men I ever dated had upped his game by dating a female artist who was quite a bit older than him.

Maybe I could create a dating app for solo polyamorous folk which would combine these concepts with a few others. Everybody would be simultaneously trying to create an average of three partnerships which would match and/or trade based on different capitals, skills or qualities. Actively dating will often spur self-improvement, so why not make this tendency overt in an app?

*Other top reasons would be "too busy"."men suck/dating sucks", and hung up on somebody inappropriate/unavailable.

[7Wannabe5]

Upon reflection, I now feel bad that I was maybe promoting body shame in men with my above post I was mostly vibing off of how Level Orange (modern/metrics)Catherine Hakim (author of "Erotic Capital") went on and on about how being overweight or obese lowers your erotic capital. Now that I'm reading "Gentle Nutrition" a Level Green (post-modern, inclusiveness, qualities) pro body-positivity book, I would like to very clearly state for the record that I have very much enjoyed sexual encounters with some men who were quite overweight, because I can overlook a whole lot of gut for some broad shoulders and muscular arms. Also, it is possible that I still need some therapy to further process the damaging effects of choosing to stay married for far too long to a man who kept telling me that the reason he didn't want to have sex with me was because I was too fat. I can only imagine the trauma suffered by those who received such messages in childhood. IOW, I've decided that Catherine Hakim is likely towards the same "bitchy ballerina" "princess and the pea" The Critic type as my too-skinny dysthymic hipster first husband (who hasn't to my knowledge successfully dated any shape of woman since our divorce) and her theory should be taken with a relatively large grain of salt.

As even Catharine Hakim briefly notes, some degree of the current preference for quite slender sexual partners is cultural. Food is cheap and abundant, so a slim physique has become a scarce good. IOW, there is an extent to which it is the equivalent of the deep bronze suntan which indicated you could afford to visit and lounge about in sunny locales in the 70s. One of the most commented upon columns in Savage Love (popular sex advice column) was based on reader writing in about how he had married a very slender woman, because he wanted a wife who looked "classy", but he kept feeling compelled to have affairs with "thick" women, because that was his core sexual preference. Due to my semi-internalization of my ex-husband's criticism, I went through a phase after my divorce where I only dated men with a stated preference for "thick" women even though I actually wasn't very "thick" at that juncture, because I had lost a lot of weight over the years in my attempt to salvage my marriage. So, I can verify that this is a true preference for a solid minority of heterosexual men and also heterosexual women who associate masculinity with "bigness." In fact, one of these straight-forwardly "thick" preferring gentlemen dumped me for a woman who was younger AND thicker than me. The way he expressed his preference was that having sex with a skinny woman was like choking on a chicken bone.

These ancient sculptures, with their large breasts, stomaches, thighs, and backsides, reflected the desirability of body fat for women during the late Stone Age. The worn surfaces of many Venuses suggest they might have been passed down as “ideological tools” that “conveyed ideals in body size for young women,” the researchers wrote.

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/venus ... ty-1928873

[Henry]

Looks like Lizzo's career wouldn't suffer if we got bombed back to the Stone Age.

[chenda]

Like the Sheela na gigs found in mediaeval churches. Popularly and absurdly believed to be a relic of a pagan fertility cult, they were more likely used like gargoyles or possibly to warn of the perceived risks of female sexuality.

[7Wannabe5]

@Henry:


True enough. The cold weather hypothesis is interesting. I just picked up a copy of "A Really Big Lunch: The Roving Gourmand on Food and Life" by the great writer, Jim Harrison. He also hails from Michigan, was quite attractive although heavy-set, and I was recalling his take on how you need a fat woman if you live in the Upper Peninsula. He also liked women who read. Too bad he is dead and also out-of-my-league due to fame, etc. Peak oil may represent a peak dating era for us thick gals. Also, the prevalence of the new weight-loss drugs may alter the market in favor of those who remain pleasingly plump. The most outre example of a man who is overweight, and otherwise reprehensible, but IMO attractive, would be Steve Bannon. Also, Jack Nicholson obviously has the opposite of boy-band hair and a serious gut, but super sexy. Another semi-famous heavy-set man I find attractive is well-known on this forum due to his "scale."

I don't mean to imply that it is necessarily the case that thick women prefer thick men exclusively or vice-versa, although there is obviously a tendency to match-up appearance-wise with longer-term partners. I also find skinny rocker guys like Iggy Pop and skinny classic guys like Cary Grant attractive, and it has been my experience that a good proportion of the men who prefer thick women are quite athletic. For instance, Lizzo's boyfriend looks to be on the thin/fit side. It is also the case that there are humans who are large-size themselves, but greatly prefer slender partners.

@chenda:

Very interesting. I've always thought that these types of ancient relics might just be stone-age version of porn. Although, of course, the perceived risks of female sexuality has also been a thing for millenia. Who knows the truth of the matter, but some have suggested that the patriarchy and fear of female sexuality didn't really take off until agricultural land/surpluses which could be passed down to male heir were established. IOW, back long enough to be deeply and widely culturally experienced, but not long enough to be strongly expressed in our DNA. The shovel-like shape of the human penis is also indicative of more promiscuous practice in earlier eras for our species. I have to say that I have been pleasantly surprised by the level of acceptance of my practice of polyamory I've experienced with my reasonably mature male partners. Although, I admit that I do sometimes "sell" it along the lines of the philosophy of Harry Browne.

[chenda]

@7w5 yup. The Mên-an-Tol in Cornwall is probably one of the few prehistoric moments where it's not hard to make an educated guess as to what they were getting at:



Although the notion that the Christian fish symbol was originally a representation of a vulva appears to have been entirely debunked.

[white belt]

@7, given your recent studies and your big interest in dating dynamics, you should be a data scientist for a dating app. Although they'd probably prefer a guy, since it's guys who have it hard there, to the extend of paying to get preferrential treatments (IOW, men are customers, while women are product - same dynamic as in many night clubs, where women are not charged the entry free).

I think apps get a lot of criticism, but the reality is that they work for many people. Anecdotally, almost 50% of my millenial/gen z social group met their long term partners via app. This is includes several that are now married (DW and I met on an app).

In terms of apps trying to get men to pay for premium features, on the one hand I could see some things being predatory, on the other hand spending $$ a month to be towards the top of the profile stack might actually be one of the most impactful things a guy can do with his money to improve dating success. This is because most women use dating apps differently than men, due to the market dynamics. Men are on apps almost everyday, constantly looking for potential matches. Women on the other hand, may only open an app when they are in a particular mood or are looking for a weekend date. They will match with a few possible profiles, then set up a date, then not going on the app again until days or weeks later. This is means it pays (no pun intended) to be at the top of the profile stack. I think the situation was worse for men (especially the more introverted types) when the popular way to meet women was to spend hours and $$ at bars/nightclubs/parties/concerts.

[white belt]

True enough. The cold weather hypothesis is interesting. I just picked up a copy of "A Really Big Lunch: The Roving Gourmand on Food and Life" by the great writer, Jim Harrison. He also hails from Michigan, was quite attractive although heavy-set, and I was recalling his take on how you need a fat woman if you live in the Upper Peninsula. He also liked women who read. Too bad he is dead and also out-of-my-league due to fame, etc. Peak oil may represent a peak dating era for us thick gals. Also, the prevalence of the new weight-loss drugs may alter the market in favor of those who remain pleasingly plump.

I have a few theories about this. For one, I do think there is a cultural component that does have its roots in geography and climate. In colder regions, people are often heavier. This makes sense for a few reasons; being really lean during cold months really sucks due to the insulative effects of bodyfat. Yes, you can just throw on another layer, but I've noticed a huge difference in how cold I feel based on my BF%. I also think people tend to be less active in winter months due to poor outdoor weather, along with human physiology sending various signals to eat more in cold weather. Combine that with the fact in the winter, humans are wearing more layers of clothing that can easily obscure or hide a few extra pounds.

I've encountered the opposite effect in warm weather places. The most fit and lean laypeople in the USA that I've seen are in places like San Diego and Tampa. These places have sunny, warm weather year around so outdoor activities are prioritized. It also means people are wearing less clothing year around, so it's harder to hide extra pounds. Additionally, going to the beach is a frequent activity which further incentives a leaner look. The bodyfat insulative effects are a negative in warm weather. There is also the competition aspect where if your dating peers are in shape, you will feel the urge to stay in shape to be successful.

IOW, I wonder how 7W5's preferences and opinions would change if she had grown up in Southern California instead of Michigan? I do believe some preferences come from nature, but there has to be at least some of it which comes from nurture.

[7Wannabe5]

IOW, I wonder how 7W5's preferences and opinions would change if she had grown up in Southern California instead of Michigan? I do believe some preferences come from nature, but there has to be at least some of it which comes from nurture.

I agree. I actually did live in an area with a lot of small lakes and a bit of a summer beach scene when I was a teenage menace in a black string bikini. However, I've never been that much into flat abs on a guy even when all the young men I knew had flat, suntanned abs above their cut-off denim shorts. Maybe it's also a generational trend? I talked about boys with the girls at my early 1980s lunch table fairly frequently, and far and away the most likely comment one of us would make when objectifying a boy would be "cute butt" , and that would still be my secondary objectification pick after shoulders and guns, although I know quite a few women who are really into male legs. OTOH, we talked about behaviors, particularly dominant behaviors, we found attractive/arousing quite frequently. I have a very clear memory of a fit handsome ski bum in his early 20s very easily picking up 5'9" teenage me right over a backyard fence and on to a blanket. The big guys with more upper body strength just make me feel relatively more girlish than the skinny, boyish guys with flat abs, although the abs do have an aesthetic appeal. Unfortunately, it's kind of difficult to display or convey dominance in a dating app photo.

This is because most women use dating apps differently than men, due to the market dynamics. Men are on apps almost everyday, constantly looking for potential matches. Women on the other hand, may only open an app when they are in a particular mood or are looking for a weekend date. They will match with a few possible profiles, then set up a date, then not going on the app again until days or weeks later.

Very true. I wonder why dating app designers/marketers haven't done more to encourage women to use dating apps more frequently or at all? Maybe an initiative like Swipe2Earn where the app (not some particular male user of the app!) would provide a dating coupon to be shared with whomever she picked? Although, I would say that the biggest problem currently increasing the male sexual deficit would be women not dating at all for long periods of time, because too busy working to save up enough money to buy her own house. Once she has bought her own house, and her own dog, unless she really wants a kid or two too, that's pretty much gonna be a wrap on her dating efforts beyond the occasional casual lay, for some strong proportion of the total female population, except maybe the 20% with the highest sex drive and the 20% still seeking romantic validation.