Low Income, Early 20s, Anti-Wage-Slave Living: Walwen's Journal

[Veronica]

Wow, this hits home with my experience almost right on the dot.

When I was in grad school, I was forced to adapt to an incredibly minimal existence. And that basically meant that I had to fill my hours with the most affordable hobby I could find: at that point in my life, it was work. If I just worked more, I wouldn't have the time to waste what little money I had.
And that meant that when I did finally buy something... it was directly related to my work. Just like your desire to buy spackle and etc.
I was doing a lot of programming, reading books and research papers, and working in the lab. So I bought a mechanical keyboard, a bookmark with a little LED light, and a little periodic table tumbler to put my coffee in. Those were the only things I bought during a 5 year period.
And my mom said I was living such a miserable life, and constantly asked me when I would be finished because that is no way to live.

When I did finally make my way to a "real job" (which was way less lucrative than anyone led me to believe it would be), I excitedly shared with my parents how much money I would be putting away into savings each month. I was so excited to start making up for lost time; instead, they pressured me to save less, because "we never saved that much, and we turned out just fine. You also need to live your life".

We try to avoid talking about it these days; if I bring up how proud I am that I'm saving 1k+/month, they will snidely bring up things that make me second guess myself like "well you can't take it with you." or "you never know, you could get cancer or have a heart attack and boom. All of that effort wasted."

[Walwen]

People who say "Why save if you could have a heart attack and die?" are living in glass houses and can't take what they dish out.

At the end of the day their plan is to have no plan and then die. So many people my age simply say "I just want to die suddenly at 39" or "I'm never going to retire/grow old." What are you gonna do if you don't instantly perish before 40? Which do you think is most likely?

"I could have a heart attack and die, so I can just make the minimum monthly payments on my debts!"
-low credit score prevents from getting a good car, good house, because can't afford it
-stresses about money for years of life
-paid 30% more than you do for the same thing because of interest and fees

If there was one word to describe my mom's life it's "overwhelmed." And depressed.

There was another lady, I think it was "millennial money", and she had like 100k in student loans that she was basically ignoring, while spending money nonstop. She had a boyfriend/sugar daddy, who bought all her clothes and food and she lived with. She said "I just want people to know that even if they have bad student loan debt, they can still live a good life!" She looked like a hostage and Lord forbid she want to break up with that man or he decides to stop bankrolling her.

Those types of people, when things happen- they just go, "Why me?" like it was some sort of unpredictable random event that their car broke down, a storm damaged their house, they need 10k upfront for IVF to start a family, they want 40k to go back to school, or 200k to buy a house.... Individually, of course you can't say when these things will happen, but come on! Something is always going to happen.

Right now my grandfather's girlfriend (long story lol) is trying to build her lifelong dream house.... but guess what? She doesn't have the money. She thought she did, but really hadn't realized how bad inflation and the housing market have gotten in the last, oh, 15 years. Who wants to give a giant loan to a 78 year old woman? Every bank has laughed in her face and she is devastated. She's had this house planned for 40 years, but saved only a pittance.

There's a stoic metaphor: Life is like being chained to a pack of running wild dogs. Either you run with them, or you are dragged.

There's also an Aesop, of The Wolf and The Dog.

The Wolf lives on a meager diet, and sees a fat dog, who never seems to lack what he wants. He asks The Dog about it.
The Dog says, oh, I have a kind master, and it's simple work. I just sit at his feet and bark at intruders, and in exchange, he lets me live with him and feeds me all the best foods. You can come with me, and I'm sure my master will let you in, too.

And The Wolf says, "Sounds great, but first, what's that thing around your neck?"
"Oh," the Dog says, "That's my collar: my master keeps me chained."
And The Wolf says, "Nevermind," and leaves.
https://fablesofaesop.com/the-dog-and-the-wolf.html

[Walwen]

I've made a pretty penny this year by card churning and rewards, and I haven't spent a cent on interest nor fees and have no cards with annual fees or anything. I don't think I'll do this forever but I actually do want to have a few cards open with different places now in the start of my financial journey. My mom has a shitty card with fees out the ass, but she won't cancel it because it's her oldest card by many years.

If you hate reading fine print, it's not a good hobby, but I do, so I do it.

Less than a year ago my credit was a pretty thin file and started off in the early 600s, now my FICO is 720. I feel a lot of satisfaction over this, it just makes me feel like I'm out ahead and I think about the potential savings when if I'm eventually getting a car or home loan. I want to be that crazy sonnavuh with the credit score in the 800s, in a few years time.

I could pay a rental deposit with the amount of reward money I've churned. I don't really earmark money like that though.

I really need to sit down and do a bunch of math now that my income is higher, to figure out where I can get within the year.
Everyone jokes that I must moonlight at the store next door to my workplace because of how much I work, but I unironically just literally enjoy working. Not in some sort of "stressed anxious addict" way but in a "weee I'm excited to see what's up today" way. Why is it so stigmatized to actually enjoy your job and life? I guess not everyone has literal plans to go live in the woods on the horizon. My life is going to change massively, so I'm savoring this period of time.

My mom still thinks I scrub toilets and wash dishes all day and am bossed around all day, and thinks pretty lowly of my general life aspirations. She thinks opening a credit card is about on par with spending 500 on scratch offs. It kinda hurts my feelings but I'm finally getting old enough to disregard her although it's still unfortunate.

Medically I've just given up again and I'm kinda planning to stay that way, it's just too much to get into and I don't have the support I'd need to get treatment really. But I'm just so over it: pain might be inevitable but suffering isn't. I know I really scare or just confuse people sometimes who can't get the duality of being really messed up but also high-functioning. It's not an analogy I like to use often because I don't want to look like a goober- but the closest media representation/tropes I've found are in veterans. The trope of the guy who doesn't have ptsd or anything but is just different. I haven't read Lord of The Rings but I've heard it's like that with people that handled the ring, they're just different people who can't return to the world that was there before. I think it'll get better with age, I really do, because things happen to everyone and time is a great equalizer.

I definitely have a thing that I like chaos because I stand out in it as someone who doesn't falter.
It's kinda like other people are residential vacuum cleaners, and I'm an industrial shop vac. Everyone else is handy and stylish and approachable, and I look like a menace to society with arcane controls and a burden to lug around. People see me handle little messes without the typical complaints and it's a novelty: but give me a shot at the big shit and that's when it makes sense why I am how I am.
......what a horrible analogy. I like it though.

Pro tip:
Gardetto snack mix (the ones with the brown thick chips) is typically the best option to buy in vending machines or gas stations to get the most snack-age and calories for your money.

[Veronica]

I know I really scare or just confuse people sometimes who can't get the duality of being really messed up but also high-functioning. It's not an analogy I like to use often because I don't want to look like a goober- but the closest media representation/tropes I've found are in veterans. The trope of the guy who doesn't have ptsd or anything but is just different. I haven't read Lord of The Rings but I've heard it's like that with people that handled the ring, they're just different people who can't return to the world that was there before. I think it'll get better with age, I really do, because things happen to everyone and time is a great equalizer.

Scientifically speaking, yes. General Life satisfaction hits an all time low in the mid 20s, and only gets better with age. So the science would suggest staying the course.

I also empathize with your "high functioning, but fucked up" assessment of myself. It's almost as if every now and then, you look around at the people around you and you think "are these people even alive? Have they even thought a thought as grand as the ones I have while I'm sitting on the toilet on a tuesday afternoon? Have they ever dared to dream anything bigger than this cookie cutter life they are currently engaged in?"

Trust me, it's the angst of the 20s. Especially when you have these grand ideas about saving the world, and you're bursting at the seams with ideas on how you would do it if they would just trust you for 20 minutes and let you do it.
My advice is distilled below; but I'm only slightly in front of you age-wise so perhaps others will have more battle-tested advice.
---
Ideas are cheap. Execution is where value is found. 100 ideas for a billion dollar company are worth exactly zero if they're just ideas in your head and you die in a car accident.

It's ok to just save yourself. You might want to save the world, but sometimes that requires the cooperation of other people outside yourself. Unless you're a charismatic leader who is willing to go the distance rallying the troops for your cause, saving the world may not be an option. And even if you are, you might only get one shot, and one cause. It's a seldom few that get to lead a world-changing movement more than once.

You might feel as if you're "not of this world" anymore; that's just a reflection of someone who is searching for their own meaning instead of accepting the one that society offers as a default. Lean into this feeling; when you find your way, the world will feel right again. You just haven't yet stumbled into that perfect intersection between what society wants and what you have to offer that also aligns with your personal views about what's important.
You'll find what society wants, what you have to offer it, and what you find important only through trial and error. And the satisfaction of making it across to the other side of that process is an internal peace that few can understand.

[Walwen]

Nah, I don't want to save the world, and I don't want the reins on anything, and the people older than me know more. And everyone has their challenges.

When I say "high functioning but also fucked up" I mean medically. Like when I tell people (like social workers) more exactly what my symptoms are, they tell me I should quit my job and go on disability, or be institutionalized- and they definitely do not take my goals of independence seriously. I am not talking "they implied it subtly", I am talking they bring out the intake papers to a group home. Talking to my old boss was definitely a massive mistake and I plan to never ever reveal any of my conditions to my current workplace. People trust me way less when they know, even though I'm the same person.

I think more seriously lately about going on a medical sabbatical of sorts, in the medium-term future.
Next year, my friend travels to visit me.
Then, I travel to my other friend's land for about two months.
Then, I enlist, and the entire process and contract might be anywhere from 3 to 6 years. (Two year contracts are a thing now because recruiting is so bad.) Ignoring the ready reserve, this will be the start of my next stage of life.
So I'd be 24-27ish, mostly depending on how long my contract is, and of course that all depends on if I can enlist.

Then the sabbatical would take about a year, I think.
Then, I could go use military benefits to go back to college, or in general go do whatever else with my life.

Cost of sabbatical depends mostly on where I would live, and if I would work/earn income at all.
I can't really say this will happen, I can't say anything I plan 5 years out will really happen, but I guess not having a plan is more painful to me mentally than making tentative plans. I'm of the opinion that if you want something like this to happen, the earlier you think about it, the better. It's yet another reason to save save save.

I wonder about dividend income, like the people who just hold a bunch of SCHD or JEPI. I know you could just buy and sell other stock to the same effect, but there's a major psychological benefit to just getting that dividend income without buying or selling. Right now I make like 3 bucks a month or something off random dividends from VOO and so on, but it's all within my Roth. If I start dumping money into a normal investment account, in 5ish years time, how much dividend income could I have? And would this make sense to do at all? It's one of those questions I don't know enough to answer. From doing some random googling and using some random calculator, I would need like 12k to get like 100 bucks a month on average.

From a rough calculator:
If every year, for 5 years, I put 2,500 into SCHD, with dividend reinvestment (DRIP):
I would end with about 14,000, about 170.5 shares.
Then, using the predicted higher stock price 5 years from now, with that 170.5 shares and no longer reinvesting dividends or contributing that 2500, I would make.... about 500 in dividend income per year. Or about 40 bucks a month.

And I don't even know how this would be taxed. 5 years is very very short timescale to think about passive income from investments. But even 40 bucks a month isn't something to be written off: that'll pay my phone bill. Outside of rent, I could easily live on 8k for everything else I'd need, so 500 dollars would be 1/16th. But how does it compare to just dumping it in VOO or something, and selling 500 dollars of VOO when the time comes? I don't know.

[Chris]

I wonder about dividend income, like the people who just hold a bunch of SCHD or JEPI. I know you could just buy and sell other stock to the same effect, but there's a major psychological benefit to just getting that dividend income without buying or selling.
[...]
But how does it compare to just dumping it in VOO or something, and selling 500 dollars of VOO when the time comes? I don't know.

The prime argument against relying on dividends is less control over taxes. The board of directors decides when a dividend is paid, and thereby decides when you have income. In the non-dividend scenario, you trigger the taxable event through selling the stock.

For a single filer with total taxable income above ~$40k, your federal tax rate on qualified dividends is 15%. So every time the company decides to pay out a dividend, you get the dividend less the 15% you pay in tax. Theoretically, if the company held on to that cash and successfully reinvested in the business, the company would enjoy high stock price appreciation. In other words, they'd be growing your investment through internal compounding.

That's the idea. Does it happen? Sometimes. It depends a lot on the business.

But you're right about the psychological benefits of the dividend income stream. Assuming the board of directors is competent, they should know when the company has excess cash. If you instead need to sell stock to generate income, you'll likely be second guessing yourself every time you put in a sell order.

Note that this mostly matters before RE... if you have an ERE budget, your income will likely be <$40k, which means that your qualified dividends (and long-term capital gains) will be taxed at 0%.

Also note that the 15%/0% rates are for qualified dividends only... not all stock dividends are qualified. You mentioned JEPI, whose dividends are only partly qualified.

[Walwen]

Hello everyone! I got very very busy all of a sudden. There was a mass exodus at my job, a bunch of people walked out. It put me in a very good position for rapid advancement.

I was literally scrubbing toilets mere months ago- now I'm the lead cook.
I was literally the lowest paid employee in the building. I saw some internal paperwork left in the open on someone's desk-
They pay me the rate of someone with 10 years experience and 10 years ago I was in elementary school. From lowest to highest in my department.

Everyone who stuck around had the chance to move up, but I'm the only person who took it. Everyone else has their reasons- mostly that they believe they are too dumb to have the responsibility of cooking, and/or don't want the stress/ have too much else going on in their lives. I don't blame any of them, because it's been crazy and I'm basically at the legal limit of how much I can work.

I've been working 60-80hrs a week since October and I usually only get one day off in 7, the legal minimum in my area.

Fun fun fun times- and good money.

[ertyu]

Save well, my friend

[delay]

Congratulations on your advancement! Good to read you're having fun. Why was there a mass exodus?

[frugaldoc]

While I have not read every word of your journal, there were some thoughts that came to mind after a cursory reading. Actually, they were screaming inside my brain. And I while what I am about to say may sound judgmental and discouraging it is really intended to save you heartache down the road.

Do not join the National Guard!

Now, this isn't coming from an active-duty member's bias against Guard/Reserve types. It is just from years of experience dealing with people that had problems (physical/mental health) before joining and either lied about it or downplayed it to their recruiter/MEPS. When placed in high stress environments, these people tend to become the "sick call commandos" or "sad pandas". And don't think just because you are a religious affairs specialist or work in health care you might not end up in a stressful environment. You could be activated and deployed to Saudia Arabia or some other place and be running for cover under the weight of your flak/Kevlar as a Houthi UAV is incoming.

I want to be a religious affairs specialist or in HR or healthcare. The military really isn't all GI macho man bullshit. The nerds won, you know."

I need to disabuse you of your thoughts on the nature of the military: even as support staff your ultimate job is support and increase the lethality of the operational force. I am a physician (who has a duty to care) but know my job is to maintain the fighting capability of the Marines and Sailors under my care. That is even the Chaplain's job. Heck I even carry a rifle/pistol at times. When I cross paths with a Marine they will say "Rah, sir". And do you know what the appropriate response to that is? "Kill!"

But the good news is that you have other goals. Homesteading sounds like a wonderful plan and something you might be able to start with limited capital. I can't wait to buy some land and homestead. You get to start it much me earlier than me. And it sounds like you are advancing in your job. May I suggest the works of Cal Newport as a guide to develop your career capital.

Again, I am not trying to be judgmental or squash your dreams. After 15 years of active duty, I just know how this plays out 99% of the time.

[Walwen]

Well.... I take all the advice I can get at this stage of life, I guess.

Things move very fast for me: I can't believe how long it's been since I posted last! I moved my computer one day to make room for a project, and simply didn't find a reason to turn it back on, especially with how much my mobile phone does for me anyways.

I forget what job I had when I last checked in here. I was a janitor, I was a dishwasher/server, and now I am a fulltime cook. Over the Easter season, I was the bunny at the mall: it paid better than my real job!

My health has improved greatly, especially after I was able to take a 10 day vacation and really address some medical issues. I rented a cabin in the woods for a few days and spent my time hiking to waterfalls and thinking about life. I only actually took 4 days off, because I have 3 day weekends. I basically told my job it was this, or me quitting, as they had been working me illegally and everyone knew it. Everything has gone in my favor since, as they suffered miserably and my boss and some other people were fired/quit/etc in the mere 10 days Walwen didn't work. Everyone was happy to see me. I wish I said more of a goodbye to my coworkers before I left, instead of being as joking as I was. I really told them, "I bet you people cannot make it until I get back without someone quitting." I am pretty sure my last words to my coworker, who quit five days into my absence, were, "Hey, try not to quit while I'm gone!" Annnnnd now I'm not likely to see her again.

My case with the labor board is going well but I don't want to talk about it until there's a conclusion. The funny thing is that no one knows it was me, they all think it was a disgruntled fired employee who made the complaint, so I have been hearing gossip about it that I REALLY shouldn't have been told.

Money just seems to come naturally to me. It's actually not natural at all and I've spent likely hundreds of hours reading things, watching things, absorbing things. But the end result is that my bank account numbers go up.

I get pretty frustrated when I try to talk about money to my young coworkers. I have trained three kitchen staff now, that are all about my exact age, and for them too this is their first or second "real job." So I talk about if they know what 401(k)s and IRAs are, and how the employer match works. At my workplace it's a 100% match for the first 3%, and then 50% for another 2%. I tell them it's really worth it, because they don't have any living expenses really, and if you have that 5% skimmed off the top since you start the job, they're never even going to notice it, but it adds up.
And universally, they just say nope. They're not going to sign up for it or save any money whatsoever. Not just for retirement: in general. The most they've ever "saved money" in their entire lives is earmarking a few hundred dollars out of the paycheck on the 1st so that they'll have extra pocket money when they go to that concert on the 12th.

I talked to my same-age coworker about how I made an extra 700 dollars in two weeks from working some overtime. He asked me automatically what I spent it on. I told him I saved it. He said, oh, so you're going to buy something big? Like a gun? Like a car? I told him I save a lot of money. He said, oh you're a dreamer, you want a REALLY nice car and you want a mansion on the beach someday? We've had a few pretty interesting discussions about money: he is so obsessed with money he sincerely signs his name with a dollar sign after it "so people know what he's about." It's just a really different culture.

I still am planning on going to stay on my friend's land for some time, but things have become a little more complicated as it seems nearly certain that he is going to deploy due to not-to-be-named current political situations. We talk most days.

My grandfather is also in pretty bad health and is having a few more operations this year, but I've decided that I can't put any of my life decisions on hold due to his health, because he might die tomorrow, or he might live another 5 years.

Right now, the aim of the game is just making the money numbers go up. The more money I have sitting in my accounts, the comfier I will feel about not working for a few months. I also just want experiences and to improve myself in various ways.

I don't really budget that much, at least not like you'd think it would work. I just.... don't spend money. Besides when I do spend money, of course.
I have my phone bill, internet bill, and some medical stuff on autopay. I know how much it all is.
I set an arbitrary amount of money that I try to spend on food, but I always go under it.
And once per week I go to a hobby club: I usually blow 50 dollars on food or items throughout the night for me and my buddies, sometimes more, sometimes nothing.
Sometimes I buy things because I want or need them. It's just so rare, I don't know what to tell you: it's hard to budget that type of stuff.
Just.... "not spending money" is working more than well enough. I save about 70% of my income, last I estimated, although I did dip into my savings for my vacation.


Here is a story I think you guys will find entertaining.

I was the Easter bunny at the mall this season on top of my other job. When I started, I owned just two pairs of pants, and unfortunately both had torn holes. I had one pair of shoes, and they also had torn holes. I also only had one pair of socks, which I had been dutifully washing by hand each night. On my break I would walk around the mall and window-shop, but it's really daunting for me to spend money. I knew I needed clothes, but I couldn't bring myself to spend so much money at once.

So on my break, on the first day, I bought a pair of pants.
On the second day, I bought a new pair of shoes.
On the third day, I bought some socks.

I told my boss, "Man, I hate shopping!" after coming back from the clothing store in the mall. And she looked at me and said, "Really??? But you go shopping every day!"

[ertyu]

If your friend deploys, will you stay with your grandfather or would you stay on his property and keep watch over it?

[Egg]

When placed in high stress environments, these people tend to become the "sick call commandos" or "sad pandas".
...
When I cross paths with a Marine they will say "Rah, sir". And do you know what the appropriate response to that is? "Kill!"

Can broadly confirm. As a relatively moody/angsty guy in my 20s I spent the best part of 5 years as an officer in the navy. It wasn't a horrible experience and I always did my job to an acceptable level, but I was a square peg in a round hole. At the time I would have happily told you my job was either 'putting warheads on foreheads' (not especially common to be fair) or some other blasé allusion to lethal intent, somewhat echoing frugaldoc's comments about the ultimate nature of the military machine. I think the Americans have a slightly different relationship with the military that may change the vibe (e.g. more obvious college benefits that maybe mean a wider range of personalities consider enlisting). Nevertheless, I second the note of caution. The military fucks up incredibly mentally stable people. If that's not you, you're doubly playing with fire imho.

Just catching up with your journal though. Interesting read - thanks for sharing