Stack theory 101

[grundomatic]

A very elementary observation I made recently, with no idea whether it has relevance:

In traditional MBTI theory, personalities are put into four temperament groups.
SJ - Guardians
SP - Artisans
NF - Idealists
NT - Rationals

Using stack theory, one can discover what ties these temperaments together. Guardians all use Si in their primary or auxiliary slots. Artisans all use Se. With Idealists and Rationals, however, either Ne or Ni can be found up front, meaning the common thread is the FxNx combo for Idealists or TxNx combo for Rationals.

[grundomatic]

I just read about "loops" and thought I'd put something here about it. From what I understand, a loop is when a person is overusing their first and third functions, or another way to look at it is over-extraverting or over-introverting.

Take me for instance, ENFP. Makes my function stack Ne Fi Te Si, so my loop would be Ne-Te. I've experienced this before as enthusiastically overextending myself by joining all the clubs and trying to do all the things, with it having a negative impact on the rest of my life, like sleep, grades, work performance, etc. The standard solution is to use the second function to bring things back into balance, for me, Fi. Even before knowing about this stuff, this is what I did. I asked myself what I cared about the most, kept those things and cut the things I cared about least at the time. I'll go out on a limb with my own opinion here and say engaging the fourth function just a bit isn't a terrible idea, either. For me, this means using Si, which in my example meant getting and using a calendar/day planner, and also sticking to routines that keep me from spinning out of control.

Another example might be an ISFJ, whose stack is Si Fe Ti Ne. Their loop would be Si-Ti, which might lead to them feeling like their world is getting smaller if all they do is work from home, solve sudoku puzzles, read murder mysteries, and play along with Jeopardy. The Fe solution might be to reconnect with close friends and family. An Fe-Ne solution might be to meet some new people.

[jacob]

I just read about "loops" and thought I'd put something here about it. From what I understand, a loop is when a person is overusing their first and third functions, or another way to look at it is over-extraverting or over-introverting.

Interesting, I've never heard of this concept. Where to find more? Link?

[grundomatic]

Here's a couple:

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/what-y ... lity-type/

https://www.personalitycafe.com/threads ... ers.25205/

@berrytwo wrote about a shadow loop, where the loop is the 6th and 8th function. I was able to find even less on that.

[Bicycle7]

@grundomatic:

As an INFJ with secondary Fe, just like the ISFJ, being able to express myself and genuinely connect with others helps me exit an Ni-Ti loop.

The Ni-Ti loop for me looks like, trying to develop a full-picture or framework that describes/predicts everything.

One example is with planning backpacking trips. I want to try to understand and predict everything that'll happen on the trip. Constantly checking the weather, staring at different map layers, reading past trip reports. I like to be prepared, but one can go overboard and you can't plan for every contingency and foot step of a backpacking trip. Talking my plans through with someone (Fe) can help me plan appropriately.

One way to generalize an Ni-Ti is creating patterns and connections of ideas (Ni) and trying to create an accurate/comprehensive framework (Ti). It sounds like a great idea, except that Ni keeps bringing in new perceptions and Ti keeps working to assimilate it into a precise structure. For the INFJ, getting the overall gist (Ni), describing it to someone (Fe) and making a cursory check of the accuracy (Ti) and then moving on, might be best.

[berrytwo]

Learning about loops has been one of the most helpful things about MBTI for me! It is one of those things you start to see everywhere after you learn about it. If you google your type and the loop, there will probably be some good info (some are more popsci-y than others). I have read through a lot of other type loops and they all seem to track well. I have thought of it as a short window of time (like a period of stress) but theoretically, you could be in a loop for years.
Do dig into shadow loops too, they have been eerily accurate for me (and others that I know.)
A MBTI expert I know recommended this book to me when I was talking about this. Haven't got my hands on it yet, but could be relevant.
https://www.amazon.com/Functions-Type-A ... al%20Types

[7Wannabe5]

Since I test basically neutral on introversion/extroversion, I think I actually might have a Ne-Fe dysfunctional loop AND a Ti-Si dysfunctional loop flipping on and off in low-level-bipolar wave form. The funny thing is that to the extent that I ever find myself "wasting resources", it is usually the result of trying to make myself be more practical/responsible/conscientious (SiFe) rather than just letting my Ne go nutz with Ti as Cat-in-the-Hat clean up crew. Like slightly manic me might blow $50 on firecrackers in one go, but "functional" depressive me will spend $5 every day on donuts to power myself through dull routine.

[AnalyticalEngine]

This is interesting because it explains a behavior I've noticed in myself, which is a tendency to project some negative emotion I feel onto the entire rest of the world, then come up with explanations/rationalizations for why it's always going to be that way. This is basically an Ni-Fi loop that goes: I feel bad (Fi) -> Here's a model of the world for why I feel bad (Ni) -> I'm not going to attempt to disprove or validate this model (skipping Te) -> ergo I continue to feel bad.

I've discovered using Te is a good way out of this loop, which basically amounts to what you do in cognitive behavioral therapy where you deconstruct whatever negative model you've built up that isn't actually representative of reality.

I'll have to look into shadow loops because I'm not as familiar with those. For INTJs, I do know there's that "flipped stack" model where you over rely on Se, which might look like giving into excessive hedonism or similar. The INTJ shadow stack is NeTiFeSi, so a negative loop there would either be NeFe or TiSi. I think I've been sucked into TiSi before, which usually looks like being very past-oriented/obsessed with nostalgia, but I'm not as sure what an NeFe loop would look like.

[7Wannabe5]

NeFe loop looks rounding up 20 library books, 20 packs of seeds, and 5 poly-partners, and then feeling terribly irresponsible if you don’t “take care” of them all in one weekend.

[berrytwo]

FYI Shadow loops are your 6th and 8th functions and should correspond to an introverted loop if you are introverted (although they could be both I suppose if you are on the edge (like 7w5). I am wondering how being strongly typed/ verses not would affect this loop equation. My first thought is that maybe people have more loops if they are less strongly typed, but deeper loops if they are stronger. I think it's probably more complicated than that though.

[Bicycle7]

Ni:
Whereas the Ti will internally represent information as 10 blackboards side-by-side, Ni will represent it with 10 glass panes that Ni simultaneously sees through for similarities and insight. Ni assumes that "when A is approximately structurally equivalent to B, then A approxmiately behaves like B". Ni is a machine that generates metaphors.

Jacob, I loved this description of Ni! It makes me feel special with dominant Ni

@Daylen: I've enjoyed exploring your tests for different functions with friends. The three Ti dominants that I asked the blue cat cheescake deductive riddle to aced it. my xnfp friend stumbled on the cats and cheesecake but then delivered a great impromptu rap and never before told fictitious story (test for Ne).

I am almost finished reading Lectures on Jung's Typology by Marie-Louise Von Franz and James Hillman. It contains an essay by Von Franz on the inferior function (4th function) and an essay by James Hillman on the feeling function. I personally liked The 1st essay by Von Franz far better.

James Hillman described Fe roughly as maintaining the flow of connections. With secondary Fe, I'm often concerned with how my decisions, actions and words will impact the direction and reciprocation of energy with others.

Marie-Louise Von Franz described with inferior feeling this genuine wholeheartedness, like a golden retriever, always there for you (until they're suddenly not). With well developed Fe, there's an opportunity for it to be what she describes as "calculating". Essentially, developed Fe sees more shades of color and there's always considerations being made on how decisions and actions impact others (and the self). Von Franz describes Fe dominants as seeming to always being able to get their needs met and for things to work out for them somehow. There's this way that Fe dominants can (for good or bad) orchestrate people around them.

[grundomatic]

...but then delivered a great impromptu rap and never before told fictitious story (test for Ne)...

I suppose it isn't Ne wonder why I like improv so much. In an upcoming set, my partner and I will indeed be a telling a very short story nobody has ever heard (also telling it one word at a time, alternating), then performing scenes from that universe.

There was also the time in D&D when asked for a rhyme for a secret effect, and I rattled off like six stanzas before they stopped coming easy.

So yeah, those are pretty good "tests" for Ne.

Also forgot about the improvised song at EREfest until just now. That's the nature of improv, though, it's "throwaway" comedy.

[daylen]

With well developed Fe, there's an opportunity for it to be what she describes as "calculating". Essentially, developed Fe sees more shades of color and there's always considerations being made on how decisions and actions impact others (and the self). Von Franz describes Fe dominants as seeming to always being able to get their needs met and for things to work out for them somehow. There's this way that Fe dominants can (for good or bad) orchestrate people around them.

Glad to have helped! This sounds spot on to me. The calculating part comes from integration of Ti with Fe. This kind of calculation is targeted more towards logical consistency than the Te-Fi kind which is more targeted towards what rationally works. Fe-Ti doesn't always know what works and so they play the room more to try to get Te-Fi solutions to work together. Te-Fi are interobjective orchestrators and Fe-Ti are intersubjective orchestrators. Both can be susceptible to slightly different versions of over-optimization whereby some objective/subjective pole becomes hyper-salient to the point of clouding out all the other points or perspectives. For Te-Fi this might look like workaholicism and for Fe-Ti this might look like conspiratorial thinking. The solution to both being sub-optimalism. We just be trying our best to juggle all these subjectives and objectives, it may not be enough but let's do it anyway!

[Bicycle7]

@grundomatic: Yeah, I feel like improv doesn't come as easy to NiFe. My Ni leans more towards focused than improvisational and I found at the Fest improv workshop, drawing a blank about what to say in the moment (Ni) and then brain running on overdrive considering what everyone around me would think if I uttered x statement (Fe).

The one word at a time improv story is reminding me of how big of a world is contained within improv! That's amazing you stringed together 6 stanzas of rhymes

@daylen: That's interesting! Yeah, for myself with NiFeTi I can see how to some degree I'm usually thinking through basic logical consistencies (Ti) with Fe decisions and actions. Whereas my 2 ESTJ (Te-Fi) friends are quintessentially focused on pragmatism, implementation and practicality of solutions.

[7Wannabe5]

Marie-Louise Von Franz described with inferior feeling this genuine wholeheartedness, like a golden retriever, always there for you (until they're suddenly not).

Yes, this kind of reminds me of this other note about ENTP that I happened upon recently:

Congrats! You’re a great partner! Until the impulse to drive across the country or apply for an artist residency in France or burn all your credit cards and live in an abandoned bus in the woods kicks in and you totally blank on the fact that you were seeing someone until the next calendar year.

https://stylecaster.com/lifestyle/love- ... rsonality/

One of the reasons I practice polyamory is that my tertiary Fe makes me feel somewhat guilty if/when I behave as above, but not if my partners are free to have other partners and they are also grouchy old men who ruggedly claim/exude ability to care for themselves.

[berrytwo]

I'm feeling like I need to increase my MBTI awareness beyond the most basic. You seem super into it (as does @Bicycle7!)... any suggestions for where to get started? I guess I should also ask, has it been as an important and helpful of a tool for you (both) as it seems?

Yes, MBTI has honestly been one of the most helpful lens I've learned to date! The deeper I learn it the more the language bridges connections for me. Selfishly, I'd love for you to learn it However, it's not for everyone... Getting started, if you do choose to, I second Jacob's suggestion for the book Please Understand me.

This thread has some great nuggets, although it can get a little heady, so maybe start with the basics I have below and read back through when you have more of a handle on it.

Stack theory (which is a is used a lot on the forum) is perhaps one of the most useful and interesting parts of MBTI. It can be a little hard to understand at first, but so fruitful! I did a lot of googling at the beginning or I suppose chat GPT could work too!

I would suggest starting by understanding what the different functions are. This google searched graphic could be a place to start. :https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/ ... _language/

I would sit with that and play with it. Look up what your first function and second function are and read more about it.

Jacob talks about the car model in the beginning of this thread, that helps give context.

I did a lot of googling at the beginning or I suppose chat GPT could work too! Go down rabbit holes that interest you or you don't understand. There are pages and pages of people writing about MBTI/ stack theory.

Good luck on your MBTI exploration journey! I am down to talk about it whenever as well

[berrytwo]

I found this interesting test for your functions development http://keys2cognition.com/explore.htm

I have had a hunch that stack theory does not always follow in direct order. I was both surprised and not surprised to see that my Ni, Fe, Ne, and Fi were all at higher levels than all of my other functions and at similar levels. Se was average. Ti followed next. Te was limited and Si was poor.

I wonder if other people's stack follow a similar patterns?

[jacob]

I have had a hunch that stack theory does not always follow in direct order. I was both surprised and not surprised to see that my Ni, Fe, Ne, and Fi were all at higher levels than all of my other functions and at similar levels. Se was average. Ti followed next. Te was limited and Si was poor.

I wonder if other people's stack follow a similar patterns?

One major issue with these tests are how they ask you to rate everything on a scale of 1-5. Like with consumer reviews, you'll get very different results depending on your tendency to rate a question as either on (1 star) or off (5 star)---like most people---or more nuanced. Check yourself when testing.

I'm scored excellent on Ti, Te, and Fi. Good on Ne and Ni. Average on Se. Limited on Si. Poor on Fe. This was not surprising to me---it confirms other tests. As I get older, I'm increasingly reinforcing a self-consistent logical understanding of the world. Intuition is increasingly less needed for additional insights in that regard. My moral compass is getting stronger (or ever more rationalized?) and integrated with the Tx (if you ask me to rationalize something now vs 10 or 20 years ago, you'll very likely get the same answer). I still see little value in other people's feels (Fe) when it comes to making effective choices (day-to-day feelings are usually wrong when it comes to making good decisions). In short, I'm turning into a hard-nosed realist/cynic.

Likely just following the standard path of an introspective thinker...

At fifteen, I had my mind bent on learning. "At thirty, I stood firm. "At forty, I had no doubts. "At fifty, I knew the decrees of Heaven. "At sixty, my ear was an obedient organ for the reception of truth. "At seventy, I could follow what my heart desired, without transgressing what was right.

I'm pretty sure, I have a good idea of what he means here... I feel [t]his sentiment.

[Bicycle7]

@Jacob,

The test for me gave different results as well with what would be theoretically expected from stack theories ordering. I scored high on Ni, Ne, Ti and Fe. All the other ones were fairly lower with confirming that I have no idea what Si and Te even are, they barely register a score. I have no ability to make and execute on a detailed plan.

Interestingly the test predicted that my most likely type is an ENTP, not even close to INFJ that I most resonate with. Although, I do resonate as well with aspects of ENTP, ISTP, ENFJ and INTJ.

I've given thought to the fact that my job requires me to inhabit my 3rd and 4th functions, Ti and Se, as a bike mechanic (an ISTP archetype is "the mechanic"). This can get really tiring, squinting at a brake rotor for a long time making small adjustments to true it. 7w5 just recently talked about this role reversal being an avenue for growth.

note other people find insight in fictional characters or perhaps humans they know. They can say that X human is just like fictional Y character from book Z and thus use those character analyses as a model for other people as well as themselves. I suppose that might have been what all those literature classes in school were about but they were completely wasted on me because I didn't (and still don't) find [literary characters] relatable. Comparing to a set of fictional characters doesn't work on my mind at all. No, give me a system and labels any day.

Pulling this from @AxelHeyst journal

This reminds me of how I see personality/vibe/presence dopplegangers all around me. Most of the time MBTI correlates with these. I think NiFe loves to relate people to each other around them. It goes deeper than personality too, sometimes I'll notice similar mannerisms and body language in 3 people that I've know in my past that are all ISTJ's or my ENFP friend that shares nothing else besides a similar body language/"swagger" to my ESFP friend in high school.

I've always made these "intuitive" connections between people, although with mbti I have more of a systematic basis/language for comparing people. It's also fairly validating to have a felt sense that two people are similar and then later confirm that with typing. Now, a certain degree of this can obviously be attributed to overfitting the model and bias confirmation.