Are you a Nomad or a Homesteader?

[Laura Ingalls]

In addition to extroverts and introverts there is ask vs guess culture.

https://medium.com/redhill-review/navig ... o%20answer.

I suspect that my husband and mother grew up in guess cultures.

My dad grew up in ask culture as did I and my offspring.

What to me is interesting about ask and guess is that the culture switch with geography can be pretty tight and then it can change again.

[7Wannabe5]

@Laura Ingalls:

Very interesting. I think that I am likely some worst of both ask/guess culture variation due to mixed message that the ideal I should fulfill would be something like "gentlewoman lawyer" or "lady-like winner." I imagine a sort of continuum along the lines of: Grab/Demand/Ask/Ask Politely/Suggest/Hint/Smile with some other verbs such as Seduce, Charm, and Cajole, in the mix. Also, there should be a word to describe the sort of behavior Kramer demonstrates in Seinfeld, when he just walks into Jerry's apartment and starts eating his cereal without asking, but also without taking a dominant stance; just blithe, cheerful ignorance of the concept of private property.

[Frita]

I personally find neither extreme appealing. I prefer a connected place to return after a bit of wandering. (Note to self: I need to update my journal.)

@LI Interesting frame of ask versus guess to view direct versus indirect communication! Again there is some middle ground in there. I prefer to add another dimension of healthy versus unhealthy defined as people’s needs being met and personal responsibility for what belongs to each individual to reach something mutually fulfilling, reciprocal, and dynamic. Guessing simply is not very accurate or efficient, while asking can be egocentric and assuming.

My family of original were mostly guessers with the exception of my maternal grandmother (my role model) who was balanced but toward the asking (as am I). My spouse’s family are guessers and he continues to use that strategy quite unsuccessfully. Our son is more like myself. I notice that being at an extreme end for communication style creates a lot of misery and is correlated with addictive behaviors.

@7W5 Emotionally immature?

[7Wannabe5]

@Frita:

Yes, that might describe it, although I would suggest that Kramer has both healthy "child-like" and unhealthy "childish" aspects to his behavior. I would also note that one of my previous partners once described me as being like Kramer/Elaine to his Jerry/George, so my take might be a bit defensive

In general, I think there is a rough dichotomy between humans who are more balanced Adult feminine/Juvenile masculine vs. those who are more balanced Adult masculine/Juvenile feminine. Neither is necessarily more emotionally mature, but they are differently emotionally mature. Highest functioning, most self-aware humans would be more well-balanced, able to fluidly adjust behavior in all 4 quadrants.

[theanimal]

Well, considering we’ve been away from home for 9 of the past 12 months, it might appear on the surface that we are nomads. But considering that the only place, Mrs. Animal and I want to be right now is home, I’d be more inclined to indicate the latter. Although, I do like roaming around a region with a base. That was kind of the M.O. for historic nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes in AK. They had a 100 mi sq region or so that they considered their home and traveled around that. I think something like that is my ideal way of being and becoming more and more what I prefer.

[theanimal]

Here is a speech that touches on many of the things in this thread and how the two sides may not be as far apart as they seem. It’s titled “An Address on Localist Nomadism” given by Andy HIckman alongside Paul Kingsnorth at a conference a few weeks ago in Wyoming. The author touches on his nomadic wandering around the US of his late teens and early 20s, trying to find the perfect in the world but eventually discovering more or less that the medium is the message. Modern travel wore him out and he realized that what he was searching for may have been his hometown all along. The author ultimately came to the same conclusions as I did in my previous post, talking about how the modern version of a nomadic traveler is far removed from the historical reality.

https://shagbark.substack.com/p/speech- ... ing-102623

Some relevant passages:

Perhaps there is a sort of “horseshoe theory” regarding place. At one end of the spectrum, the provincial man, rusticated by so many seasons in place, wields his four horizons as a sort of meta-geographical ship, wandering the waters of the world from his front porch. He sails the metaphysical tradewinds with his Rosary in hand as he prays for the world, or at his library desk, composing letters to his compatriots worldwide – always on display as the quintessential man of his place. Like an oak tree, he is thoroughly the product of his environs, and yet for it, he is somehow worldwide. Perhaps in so saying, I am remembering my great-grandmother, who eschewed travel in favor of watching the Travel Channel and later praying for the conversion of whoever lived in the featured nations during her nightly divine office.

A simple study of Nomadic peoples seems to show that most nomads hardly traveled very far in a year’s time. They generally moved to “halting grounds”, each suited to the season’s weather, and each a regular “haunt” – a term I find interesting given the possibility that one might be leaving some of their soul everywhere they depart from. In nearly 200,000 years of conjectured anthropological history of nomads, no known tribes have utilized planes, trains, automobiles, or diesel-powered ships for their primary mode of transit. Virtually all have walked, ridden animals, or canoed.

And so, in closing, I think it wise to state that localism and nomadism are not really at odds. So long as those with a nomadic impulse choose to gratify the urge to move within real and meaningful limits, they would not only edify their lives but decorate the region they hearken from as living ornaments of an ancient human tradition. Traveling a tight range, in a seasonally appropriate manner and chiefly by foot, or perhaps horseback or canoe, would yield a genuinely human nomadism. Barring these simple recommendations, I find it difficult to imagine a lasting, multi-generational nomadism in North America.

[conwy]

I'm a nomad with mild homesteader tendencies (I like to have at least one stable "home base" to return to anytime).

My ideal life would involve rotating between 2-3 residences per year, each in a different country / culture. But that would cost too much for an early-retirement-extreme budget, so I will probably limit myself to language lessons and the occasional overseas holiday.

[J_]

@conwy. I do rotate 2-3 residences per year as I wrote in this thread. Yes the (running) costs are higher than only one residence. I have serial owned 7 residences in 3 different countries in the last 24 years. Now I own still 2 (the third I rent for the period I am there). The capital gains on the sold 5 residences is still higher than all the costs for using them and are still enough for continuing with the 2-3 for a decade.

[conwy]

@conwy. I do rotate 2-3 residences per year as I wrote in this thread. Yes the (running) costs are higher than only one residence. I have serial owned 7 residences in 3 different countries in the last 24 years. Now I own still 2 (the third I rent for the period I am there). The capital gains on the sold 5 residences is still higher than all the costs for using them and are still enough for continuing with the 2-3 for a decade.

Interesting.

I'm reluctant to get into property ownership, even in my country of origin, as I'm concerned about maintenance costs, taxes, etc.

But I like the idea of, say, long-term renting a small room in 2-3 countries, then bouncing between the rooms. I could crash in one of the rooms after a long flight and then use it as a home-base while travelling within the region. It's not necessarily cheaper than getting a hotel, but the nice thing is the convenience of being able to just come and go and not having to book in advance as with a hotel.

[J_]

I could crash in one of the rooms after a long flight and then use it as a home-base while travelling within the region. It's not necessarily cheaper than getting a hotel, but the nice thing is the convenience of being able to just come and go and not having to book in advance as with a hotel.

I have chosen those three in such a way that I can easily reach them by public transport. (walk, train, airplane, train or bus), and all have groceries on walking distance. So I do not need a car at all. And all have (different) nature on the doorstep.
Another convenience is having clothing and a stocked pantry in the two of the residences I own. The rented one is in a warm climate, I do not need much clothing. So I can travel very light between the three.

(by the way I have (serial) owned two residences in Cornwall, the country of your origin)

[7Wannabe5]

I've considered the option of owning multiple vacant lots/permaculture projects in different locations, so I can keep moving a camper from one to another, and, thereby, avoid getting busted for living in a camper. In theory, you can only legally camp on your own land for two weeks/year, but if you owned 3 or 4 lots and kept moving from one to another in a non-patterned manner, unlikely that you would simultaneously be banned from all sites, especially if you threw some National Forest and borrowed-driveway time into the mix. This model could reduce combined shelter/garden/transport expense to maybe $30,000 down/$200 month.

[J_]

Good idea 7w5!

[Laura Ingalls]

I meet and talked to an interesting woman yesterday. Much of the conversation was very germane to this thread. She lives ~7 months a year in Mulege, Mexico and ~5 months in Southwestern Colorado.

In Mexico she lives in a small single family house. In Colorado she has a travel trailer and a part time job as a campground host. The Colorado location was one she had camped in for many years before

Anyway she lives the two familiar places model and was doing in such a way that is was pretty attainable for people at near ERE means.

OT She also helped facilitate our lodging last night. She introduced us to a couple with an Airbnb in her neighborhood. We visited and talked directly to them and ended up seeing on the platform but paying for it directly. They made $50 on a last minute rental with people that made almost no mess. We got $25 off the price of renting directly. Social capital isn’t always with people who have known each other for years on end.

[conwy]

Wow very good idea, 7Wannabe5!!

I don't know why I was so stupid not to think of that. By that means I think it could very well be possible to live legally in a caravan totally rent free!

[jacob]

This model could reduce combined shelter/garden/transport expense to maybe $30,000 down/$200 month.

Camping in state parks for state residents is often very inexpensive IFF you don't reserve and pay cash. IIRC, our usual pick is $11/night for a site w/o water or electricity. Given the two-week limit, which I suspect is not a hard rule, you'd just need to rotate between two of those.

[7Wannabe5]

@jacob:

Yes, but throwing ownership of a vacant lot or two into the mix allows for maintenance of a garden/permaculture project which could provide food, firewood, other natural resources, and likely some amount of storage space. Even the smallest storage locker you can rent costs more than the property tax on a small rural lot where nobody would care if you left any number of locked down Rubbermaid type (or more attractive Amish wood-type)containers or tiny shed. So, in theory, you could have many of the work-spaces/recreational facilities to be found in a 3000 sq ft McMansion with large garage, each sealed/locked down in an independent "tool kit" on your vacant lot(s.) So, your camper would be like the classic base of elements you could wear to yoga class, and your modules would provide the top layers/accessories for whatever lifestyle variations you might prefer; boat house, sewing room, root cellar, solar charging station, gaming hell...

[conwy]

Camping in state parks for state residents is often very inexpensive IFF you don't reserve and pay cash. IIRC, our usual pick is $11/night for a site w/o water or electricity. Given the two-week limit, which I suspect is not a hard rule, you'd just need to rotate between two of those.

Good idea too, actually rotating every 2 weeks generally seems like a good way to minimise costs and stay within the law.

[sodatrain]

I've unexpectedly found myself embracing the life of a homesteader. In the past, I was quite the traveler, and while I enjoyed much of it, I now realize some of it was simply escapism. Over the years, I've owned four homes and rented several apartments, yet for the first time, I've developed a deep fondness for my current home. I find myself wanting to be here more often than not, appreciating the balance it brings to my life. While I still have the desire to travel, it's become less frequent. Nowadays, most of my trips are rather "functional," centered around visiting family and friends, rather than the exploratory journeys of the past. Having traveled extensively in the past likely plays a part in keeping the wanderlust at bay.

Also, thanks @theanimal, I really chuckled and enjoyed at this part of the stuff you quoted:

In nearly 200,000 years of conjectured anthropological history of nomads, no known tribes have utilized planes, trains, automobiles, or diesel-powered ships for their primary mode of transit. Virtually all have walked, ridden animals, or canoed.