Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg (Discussion + Book Club Meeting)

[7Wannabe5]

@Crusader:

If you do the exercise where you look at a list of 60 or 100 common human values, and then attempt to narrow it down to your top 3 to 5 towards Values Clarification (as we called it during circle time in the late 1970s), you may notice that there aren't so many that are in irresolvable opposition. You could theoretically do an exercise towards personal growth in which you picked 3 values at random and attempted to make them yours for a year (although it is true that choosing to engage in such an experiment would also be indicative of core values.) So, it is also true that, in theory, you could attempt the same sort of exericise as related to the shared value pool created by your random arranged marriage to other.

Therefore, the problem might be more in alignment with how your differing top values result in differing behaviors that are hetero-functional, producing of friction. Also, a terrible thing that often happens in relationships is that even if you start out with Partner A valuing Cleanliness at the 65% level of general population and Partner B valuing Cleanliness at the 72% level of general population, after 7 years together Partner A is the Thoughtless Slob and Partner B is the Fastidious Prick.

An interesting exercise for ERE might be to look at that list of top 100 human values, inclusive of frugality, and try to figure out how each of the other values could be succesfully "married" to frugality.

[Crusader]

@Jean
Yes, there is a difference, but mostly on the side of the person making the request. Let's say that I want to be in a monogamous relationship, and I KNOW that a non-monogamous relationship is a dealbreaker for me. I could be in touch with my feelings and needs and understand exactly why this is important to me, but to my partner, the net effect is "if you don't want to be in a monogamous relationship, I will leave this relationship". You can phrase it as "If you cheat on me, I will leave you", or "One of my emotional needs is to feel secure in a romantic relationship, and if you feel the need to have sex with someone else <bla bla bla>", but I don't really see a big difference between the two.

In fact, in 7W5's example, I would argue that it's even better to dump the wife with "Look, I like women with big boobs and you ain't it", because then she will conclude that I am a shallow POS not worth crying over, rather than trying to pretend that I should accept her the way she is, that I feel bad, that I had a traumatic childhood, that I am in touch with my feelings, that I feel shame, that there is chance we will work it out... It's almost like you are really covering your own ass so that you don't feel guilty instead of being honest.

@7W5
I think that there are many common emotional needs that people have, but practically how people fulfil them can be very different. My idea of "independence" might be my pursuit of ERE, whereas for my friend, it is not being in a monogamous relationship. So, I think it is more important to see what practical dealbreakers there are between people, and all we have to do is take a look at all the failed relationships. Again, it could be religion, politics, whether or not you want to have kids, how much money you want to spend, social status...

[Frita]

I probably shouldn't be commenting on something I haven't really looked into, but "passive aggressive" was my immediate interpretation as well in terms of how NVC can come across. It may not be explicitly violent, but it can certainly be implicitly violent.

In order for this to work, there needs to be a very good understanding that if you tell me that it bothers you that my feet smells, I can respond with "that's a you-problem" w/o consequences. Otherwise, it just seems a question of how subtle the threat is.

First, I would like to say that NVC can be a useful tool when used under the right conditions. Another positive is getting people to be aware of emotions in themselves, express, and process them. Those skills are necessary to consciously engage with another in a healthier manor, though there’s a potential to use that knowledge for control and power.

When I read “passive aggressive” coupled with NVC, my response was “Bingo!” Sometimes it is presented as a magical formula to manipulate another into getting what one wants (often disguised as needs). There is a presumption that person A cares, is willing and/or capable of collaborating, and that person B has similar abilities. Big ask.

Past conversation layered with passive aggressiveness with someone newly minted in NVC:
* Situation: Person B (me) was invited to person A’s home for a group carry-in meal and asked to bring a green salad. I asked it there was anything specific to include or avoid and was told,”Anything is fine.” I also made a homemade dressing that I thought paired well with the vegetables, as well as some bottled stuff I got on sale with a coupon.
* Person A: non-verbal communication wrinkling up nose which typically is disgust
* Person B: Here is the salad. I left the vegetable chunks larger so people can pick them out when they prefer and don’t inadvertently get a small bit of something they don’t like. I made the orange-poppyseed vinaigrette today and also got this Marie’s bottled dressing.
* Person A: When I see this salad, I feel sad because I am needing consideration. In the future, could you please bring what I want?
* Person B: Thank you for sharing. I understand that you’re upset because the salad I brought was not what you’d prefer and caused problems with your carry-in. Is that right?
* Person A: Yes.
* Person B: Are you open to hearing my point of view?
* Person A: Yes
* Person B: I feel confused when I hear that you would like me to accurately guess what you would specifically like me to bring with no direct communication. In the future, could you please tell me?
* Person A: exasperated, walks away and refuses to discuss with me then or later. Over the course of the evening I overhear her telling another person how well NVC works if the other person actually knows how to use it. They were several feet away.

[mathiverse]

Thank you to all who were able to make it to the NVC meeting this past weekend.

One of the resources shared in the meeting that others may be interested in is the YouTube channel: A Cup of Empathy and the accompanying website which contains a "tough talk preparation" sheet which can be helpful to do before difficult conversations: https://cupofempathy.com/.

The other participants suggested that we have another meeting about how our NVC implementation is going. The meeting will consist of talking about what went well, what didn't work, and lessons learned. I'll post more information about that meeting in this thread once I nail down the details. I will be targeting January after the holidays which will hopefully give us interesting fodder for discussions.

[Jean]

@crusader
i think there is a big difference beetween someone leaving you because you can't be happy together, and someone leaving you to punish you.
In one case, your behaviour is acknowledeg, and in the other case, it is judged.

[7Wannabe5]

I think that there are many common emotional needs that people have, but practically how people fulfil them can be very different. My idea of "independence" might be my pursuit of ERE, whereas for my friend, it is not being in a monogamous relationship. So, I think it is more important to see what practical dealbreakers there are between people, and all we have to do is take a look at all the failed relationships. Again, it could be religion, politics, whether or not you want to have kids, how much money you want to spend, social status...

Yes, I absolutely agree at the level of "not enough time available in this life to transcend." OTOH, sometimes the fairly obvious things that you listed will be the problem, but fairly frequently other possibilities such as "pace at which you prefer to live your life" or whether or not you are someone who can deal with the neighbor's dog pooping on your lawn will prove critical.

I actually looked at a large list of Values again after entering into this discussion, and I realized that even the difference between some terms that are near synonymous such as "Independence", "Liberty", "Freedom", and "Autonomy" can lead to personal, relationship or group schisms. Your pursuit of "ERE" would likely be more in alignment with core value "independence", whereas, your female friend's desire for open relationship contract might be more in alignment with her core value of "liberty." Somebody who mostly craves "autonomy" might be as happy to be self-employed as financially "independent." etc.etc.

Person A: When I see this salad, I feel sad because I am needing consideration. In the future, could you please bring what I want?

Just imagine the potential nightmare of being her sexual partner. I think "Oh, I apologize. I believe I neglected to share that I was recently diagosed as H.O.P. , highly oblivious person." (smile.) would be my response. Also, it would be highly likely that if for some reason I was compelled to attend another gathering she organized, I might bring 6'5" man who played bass with Parliament as my date. IOW, I would treat her as just another variation on the theme of "mean girl" or "evil ballet Mom." Wicked transcendence of social/game boundaries is the best play. Another example would be if mean girl starts subtly making fun of your style, then you start not so subtly flirting with her Dad. etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, okay, not so non-violent...

[Jean]

@7w5
I think nvc was invented exactly as an alternative to those kind of petty revenge

[OutOfTheBlue]

You can definitely apply the letter of NVC while completely missing its spirit.

If there's passive aggressiveness or if you are employing it to be "right" or exert power over, you're doing it wrong?

NVC strikes me as not so much a tool to use but a different user. Another frame of mind/communication, a shift as to where you're coming from.

There is a challenge to internalize it to the point that once you've learned it as a foreign language, you can speak its idiom fluently and naturally.

And sometimes these steps are better done in silence.

It's not efficient if you make it a parody of itself.

Listening for and communicating feelings and needs with a heartfelt (self and other) compassion can be dynamics transforming.

The purpose is not to adopt a stilted way of communicating, but speaking the language of life and fostering natural giving.

PS: I didn't make it to the meeting, thanks again for the initiative and summary, mathiverse!

[OutOfTheBlue]

Watched the three hour video posted up thread from an NVC workshop with Marshall Rosenberg and it was very good, funny and inspiring. Recommended!

I don't know if I've become more attentive (to me and others doing this) due to living in an SEA culture where this is considered rude, but I noticed that Marshall often interrupted people asking questions. This was a bit jarring for a workshop dedicated to communication.

[7Wannabe5]

I think nvc was invented exactly as an alternative to those kind of petty revenge

Bless your heart, Jean. Thank you sooo much for sharing. *

"Employee, we think that the effect of the task you are performing aren't worth the money we pay you. Therefore it isn't in the company interest to keep employing you in this position. We have no open position. We need to make benefit to survive as a company, therefor, we decided to fire you"

Seriously, I haven't read "Non-Violent Communication" (yet), but this is basically the style of communication I learned from "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch. which I would describe as being in my Adult Masculine energy. You have to be in your cool Masculine Energy when you make, break, or re-negotiate contracts. The above is almost exactly the wording I now use when ending sexual/romantic relationships, and it works quite well. OTOH, when I am interested in entering into a relationship, I find it more functional to behave/communicate in my relaxed Feminine Energy, which I learned from the books of David Deida. I also agree with OutOfTheBlue's take that it isn't fake to bring forwards various facets of your personality once you are more comfortable with the process. You can do it in silence or in relationship to the universe or your garden rather than another human.

*The fun and trickery of petty revenge would be in the domain of the juvenile energy, which it would be quite boring to repress entirely.

[Jean]

schnarch and nvc are quite adjacent.

[Frita]

Just imagine the potential nightmare of being her sexual partner. I think "Oh, I apologize. I believe I neglected to share that I was recently diagosed as H.O.P. , highly oblivious person." (smile.) would be my response. Also, it would be highly likely that if for some reason I was compelled to attend another gathering she organized, I might bring 6'5" man who played bass with Parliament as my date. IOW, I would treat her as just another variation on the theme of "mean girl" or "evil ballet Mom." Wicked transcendence of social/game boundaries is the best play. Another example would be if mean girl starts subtly making fun of your style, then you start not so subtly flirting with her Dad. etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, okay, not so non-violent...

I appreciate the hell out of your ability to apply the how-one-does-something-is-how-they-do everything aphorism with wit.

I considered other reactions but decided to play along for fun. (The 12 year old me was quite the bitch.) As you pointed out, this person most likely encountered issues attempting to apply NVC techniques in other settings. (Just imagine if she were polyamorous instead of partnered!) These days when I see her, I greet her warmly with a salutation and her name, and keep moving.

[Frita]

You can definitely apply the letter of NVC while completely missing its spirit.

If there's passive aggressiveness or if you are employing it to be "right" or exert power over, you're doing it wrong?

NVC strikes me as not so much a tool to use but a different user. Another frame of mind/communication, a shift as to where you're coming from.

There is a challenge to internalize it to the point that once you've learned it as a foreign language, you can speak its idiom fluently and naturally.

And sometimes these steps are better done in silence.

It's not efficient if you make it a parody of itself.

Listening for and communicating feelings and needs with a heartfelt (self and other) compassion can be dynamics transforming.

The purpose is not to adopt a stilted way of communicating, but speaking the language of life and fostering natural giving.

PS: I didn't make it to the meeting, thanks again for the initiative and summary, mathiverse!

You’ve verbally captured the nuance of NVC I was trying to illustrate upthread.

And then each interaction, even with the same human who may not be the same person (if that makes sense), is different. Based on the relationship connection, the challenge level can fluctuate and morph. It reminds me on the old Faberge Organics commercial: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TgDxWNV4wWY

[7Wannabe5]

(The 12 year old me was quite the bitch.)

I bet I was never a bitch, but I've never had much trouble with "mean girls." I think due to being first-born of 4 sisters (well, those brats do pick on me continuously, but it's all in good fun) and being a tall early bloomer; when you look 19 at age 13, you don't fit in, but you don't get picked on much either. I've more frequently suffered in the company of "mean girls" in male bodies, because it's harder to see it coming.

[Frita]

I bet I was never a bitch, but I've never had much trouble with "mean girls." I think due to being first-born of 4 sisters (well, those brats do pick on me continuously, but it's all in good fun) and being a tall early bloomer; when you look 19 at age 13, you don't fit in, but you don't get picked on much either. I've more frequently suffered in the company of "mean girls" in male bodies, because it's harder to see it coming.

Ha, well, I should clarify that it was a role I temporarily auditioned for in 7th grade. Like you, I matured earlier (The summer I turned 11, I grew 8”! I also had a young Rachel Welch figure and was in our district’s inaugural gifted program. My boyfriend was the “it” guy in our 600 student school, not very bright, but cute and super athletic!). Though I was different in those and other ways but there was power in that. So I tried it on and discovered something that did not square with my values.

My grandma, my role model, the Swed, called me out on my BS. I remember her telling me that a person who cleans toilets for a living is just as valuable and skilled as anyone else, that society just falsely devalues this person. Truth. That was some powerful “bitch be gone” spray. (I think of her and the lesson each week as I clean the toilet to the best of my ability, yet not to professional standards, not understanding what I am missing and accepting myself as imperfect.)

[Crusader]

I do think the description from OutOfTheBlue is a nice way to summarize it. It is a paradigm shift of how you approach communication.

I've been trying to incorporate more NVC concepts into my life, and the problem that I keep running into is that I have difficulty opening up myself to others. The background is that I was an a**hole ~10 years ago, and I slowly became more aware over time. This has left me very insecure about whether my emotional needs are leftovers from my a**hole days that should be pruned, or something that is OK to feel. I know that ultimately, there are no "shoulds", "oughts" or "musts", but still.

By default, my brain is wired to be self centred, assign malice to others and be pessimistic (thank you, my Eastern European overbearing borderline narcissistic mother). So I don't know if I sharing my thoughts and feelings is good at all. This inevitably limits the depth of relationships you can develop with people. What has worked in more recent years is to not rock the boat and try to be stoic/zen, and reflect on my own, but I feel it's time to level up somehow.

[7Wannabe5]

My grandma, my role model, the Swed, called me out on my BS. I remember her telling me that a person who cleans toilets for a living is just as valuable and skilled as anyone else, that society just falsely devalues this person.

My maternal grandmother with whom I was very close, was second-generation Polish, working-class, Rosie-the-Riveter union member, but she never promoted hard-work ethic as a value (now that I think about it.) Much more like she promoted a very early version of highly-independent-fun-divorced-young-grandma lifestyle morphed with a lot of homemade/grown ethnic food production lifestyle. Kind of like "Sex and Cabbage in the City." She caught me reading Playgirl when I was around 13/14 and she just laughed and then advised me "Those boys are okay, but you take care of you." She also very clearly admired my upper-middle-class, highly educated, very kind-hearted, but somewhat elitist father. My innately kind-hearted father was probably my main influence away from becoming a mean girl, but there was a bit of "noblesse oblige" in his messaging. Also, perhaps, the fact that my sisters and I were very rarely praised for our appearance vs our behavior and intelligence/skills.

Hard veer back to topic at hand. I was so amused and appalled by the anecdote you shared above, I shared it with my very progressively-minded Thanksgiving circle for their take, and they were even more livid than I was on your behalf. My DD32 (born high-functioning diplomat type) who learned NVC as a peer-conflict mediator declared that the usage you described amounted to "weaponized therapy language."

[Frita]

My maternal grandmother with whom I was very close, was second-generation Polish, working-class, Rosie-the-Riveter union member, but she never promoted hard-work ethic as a value (now that I think about it.) Much more like she promoted a very early version of highly-independent-fun-divorced-young-grandma lifestyle morphed with a lot of homemade/grown ethnic food production lifestyle. Kind of like "Sex and Cabbage in the City." She caught me reading Playgirl when I was around 13/14 and she just laughed and then advised me "Those boys are okay, but you take care of you." She also very clearly admired my upper-middle-class, highly educated, very kind-hearted, but somewhat elitist father. My innately kind-hearted father was probably my main influence away from becoming a mean girl, but there was a bit of "noblesse oblige" in his messaging. Also, perhaps, the fact that my sisters and I were very rarely praised for our appearance vs our behavior and intelligence/skills.

Hard veer back to topic at hand. I was so amused and appalled by the anecdote you shared above, I shared it with my very progressively-minded Thanksgiving circle for their take, and they were even more livid than I was on your behalf. My DD32 (born high-functioning diplomat type) who learned NVC as a peer-conflict mediator declared that the usage you described amounted to "weaponized therapy language."

It is interesting how experiences shape us and continue to do so. This is something about which I want to keep the proverbial light on.

Weaponized therapy language, I appreciate the term. I reframe it as someone at the beginning stage of learning the tool. There is simplification and overgeneralization. It seemed that pro-relational intention was skipped. My example was a cautionary tale to myself and others.

[figmenter]

By default, my brain is wired to be self centred, assign malice to others and be pessimistic (thank you, my Eastern European overbearing borderline narcissistic mother). So I don't know if I sharing my thoughts and feelings is good at all. This inevitably limits the depth of relationships you can develop with people. What has worked in more recent years is to not rock the boat and try to be stoic/zen, and reflect on my own, but I feel it's time to level up somehow.

Welcome to Shadow work.

Watch how Katie Byron uses her 'Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet' to question thoughts and attitudes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhFdeWLjf5k I use this approach to question my thoughts. The four questions loosen my attachment to them. The turnaround gives access to new perspectives. As a result I have taken my thoughts way less serious. I have noted it leads to a general ease and a better quality of life.

I use the lessons from the Order of Spiritual Alchemy (OSA) to accept, forgive and love myself and others. I use this work to dig into my past and find experiences that made me feel anxious, angry or unhappy. The process includes a way to reach acceptance, forgiveness and a sense of loving what is because of these experiences. Start here: https://octagonsociety.org/preliminary-lessons/

I use a third way to deal with/heal my trauma, big and small: Tension/Trauma Release Exercise (TRE). This involves letting your body shake to help it to let go of tension. No need to write, think, contemplate, re-live, explain. Just shake it off. Shortened example with guidance by David Berceli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QvjbEWx0dw

I have been doing these the past few years and they work for me. I have become more accepting, more loving, less judging. I notice it in the quality of my relationships and in the feedback I get from the people around me.

Try some stuff out. See what works for you. Good luck leveling up!

[Crusader]

Thank you very much for your suggestions! I am allergic to anything "spiritual", so OSA doesn't seem like a good fit for me. They have this in their FAQ:

Q: Do I have to believe in a higher power to benefit from this course?

A: Yes. This course refers only to “the Divine,” and makes no assertions about who or what that may be. But in order to fully benefit, you should believe in some concept of the Divine that makes sense to you in the context of the lessons. It won’t play well with atheism.

I am also allergic to any form of alternative medicine, and TRE seems to be a form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_experiencing, so also not a good fit for me.

However, I watched the Katie Byron video, and her methodology does seem very interesting (I also related to some of the the son/mother challenges from the video). Being as neurotic as I am, I think that the practice of flipping my thoughts around will do me good. I think I'll dig deeper into her work.