life is like climbing a mountain: many temptations looking down, but looking above, you can't see the top

[lillo9546]

Hi there,
my generation (i'm from the 90s), has been programmed since childhood from school, to life among desks, so it seems completely normal to find myself in an office doing the same routine I had while studying, and all the things connected to it, like going out shopping, the 5 to 2 ratio, 5 days of work and 2 of rest, weekend away, etc. ("effort" and "reward" system)

I tried to change the path: try to reduce job hours, or even replace it, if you have the economic means, and insert one of my activities, passion, hobby, in the hours saved. This seems so easy, so I've also started studying and get interested into drawing, music, philosophy, antopology.
I've been on this road for about two years now and I think I'm at the lowest point, even if I haven't seen the bottom yet.
I feel completely lost, no longer having that stimulus of "effort" and "reward", it's like wandering: even in a sea of people I feel alone, and mostly lost.
I speculated that this might be because doing an alternative lifestyle, and seeing others close to you still doing the traditional one, is a subconscious human practice that makes us question ourselves at least!
So, in the meantime that the "reward" system for the "alternative" lifestyle is found or changed to some other form, going out to dinner or shopping, no longer gives us that reward that once satisfied us, quite the opposite: doing one of these activities has the opposite effect on me!

I see some friends living unaware in their traditional lifestyle stream: 24/7 office, kids, new cars, expensive shopping, luxury homes, overpriced exclusive vacations 15 days a year. To them it is as if they had never awakened from the dream, and sometimes I wonder if I have not been "unlucky" to understand these things unknown to them, such as how you get exploited by the capitalism pyramid scheme, and many other things.
I'm not saying I want to be in their place, and therefore lead a traditional life, therefore have a stable job, a wife, a child, a house, but the most oppressive thing is, in my case, the fewer possibilities of completing my life with a partner; womens are looking for a man with good appearence, highest status, highest money, well-groomed, well-dressed, economically sound man, with a brand new car, with a large house, with an interest in shopping, who always go out to dinner, who takes them visiting new places on the weekend, doing new activities, etc etc.
I'd also like to be able to visit other places and do something new every day, but let's not forget that in the traditional lifestyle one lives to work, and in "effort" and "reward". (5 days and 2 days, or better if you manage to do it, but you still fighting this "effort" and "reward" system).
I do really strive to know how people could find the right balance for the effort and reward system, and keep a family that lasts. And also, how could they still be on the rat race, even if some of them know about the scheme, and instead, they use at their own advantage, to climb the social ladder.
This is totally against the ERE lifestyle..


I have thought several times about leaving the city to go to the countryside, but having no past experience in the countryside, I see it too much as "hard work", and I cannot see a reason who would bring "status" and "money". (I am still thinking like traditional people here).

I have preferred to stay here in the city but try to downsize and lower my surrogate needs. Maybe I'm wrong and in the countryside I could find people like me, maybe women interested in me and not in surrogates, and why not, even a nicer and less stressful place, but it seems like city has all his comfort and discomfort.



I wonder what I'm doing wrong in my alternative living path, having now messed up all my priorities, and struggling to identify goals.
I wonder if there is a "right" way to live in this specific society we live in today.
You go for the traditional way, climb the latter, but start to look back because you feel that you don't need the luxury and surrogates.
You go for the alternative way, which is ere, do your best to understand the system and schemes, but start to look back because you feel that you don't belong in this world, because your animal ape-man social instinct tells you that others are doing that, and that you were raised and programmed to do that.


Trust me, it's really hard to get out of the pattern.
If you give a child chocolate after he has done his homework, you are rewarding him after an effort.
If you draw parallels, school and work, and reward with weekend outings, expect that child to live his or her life in that pattern.
For everyone who wants to get out there is an insurmountable psychological obstacle. It's like climbing a mountain, like climbing a mountain with your bare hands. A mountain whose tip you can't see, but rather if you look down, you see that you are running away from other people who are lying around enjoying their lives, unaware of everything that is going on.

[Henry]

I was reading about a mountain climbing disaster the other day. I forget which one but it was a seminal disaster. Chain reaction type of thing. A number died. It was a group of advanced and inexperienced mountain climbers. There were two basic points. Number one, the majority of mountain climbing accidents happen upon descent. Number two, in this specific instance, it was the advanced climbers who caused the accident. A lot to chew on.

[DutchGirl]

womens are looking for a man with good appearence, highest status, highest money, well-groomed, well-dressed, economically sound man, with a brand new car, with a large house, with an interest in shopping, who always go out to dinner, who takes them visiting new places on the weekend, doing new activities, etc etc.

Some women are. They are the women that would not be a good life partner for you anyway.

If you are one of the say 10% of people who reject the standard life path as ideal, you do not want to be with the 90% of the women who are striving for the standard path in life. Yes, it's more effort to find a good partner in the 10% who want something else, but you are not afraid to spend a little energy on that, are you?

[mathiverse]

Free time, self-directed time requires intrinsic motivation which may be hard to find if you've been told what to do all of your life! I think the recovery of intrinsic motivation is a great goal to have. Maybe @AxelHeyst can share some resources because he spent a lot of time thinking about this in the last year or two.

What kind of strategies and activities have you tried to get out of this rut? In particular, what actions have you taken in the real world? Have you tried new hobbies? Have you made lists and tried everything on them?

Also are there are activities you need to stop doing? Do you wake up and then scroll the internet all day without trying anything in the real world? Do you wake up and then smoke the ganja and then next thing you know it's 10 pm and time to go to sleep? Maybe look for things to remove, then sit with your boredom and urges to do the old thing until you have an urge to do something else.

Two ideas: Maybe you need to let yourself explore more? Alternatively, if you found anything that sparked your interest in the past two years, maybe the best idea is to make an arbitrary choice to pursue that extensively for at least six months, then see where you are?

[lillo9546]

1) What kind of strategies and activities have you tried to get out of this rut? In particular, what actions have you taken in the real world? Have you tried new hobbies? Have you made lists and tried everything on them?


2) Also are there are activities you need to stop doing? Do you wake up and then scroll the internet all day without trying anything in the real world?

1) So far I've tried:
- Art (and I'm objectly very good at it). Actually stopped.
- Music (I'm still a beginner)
- Learning (Philosophy, Antropologhy, Geography, etc)
- Reading (at least 1 hour a day)

2) So far I've fixed this, I have a dumbphone now, with 7 Minutes a day of screen on time. On my laptop I'm trying to lower it from 8hours a day to 4 hours a day. I do check messagess on every website/app, only at morning, and at evening. If anyone wants me, he need to call!

One thing to notice is that when you are exploring alternative living, at least for me, it generate so much stress, I have episodes of agoraphobia, panic, and while I go back to the traditional lifestyle, this sensation are very lower than before.
I think this is connected to our "human sense" of what "accomplished" life means for us: if you are teached for 20 years to do "a", but then at year 21 you find that "b" is what you should do instead, it's really hard to reprogram your life on that, and I think that this is a part of the side effects.
I feel lonely, lost, panic sometimes but also present, wiser, more stronger and calm with alternative living. It's a very contrast living.

Some women are. They are the women that would not be a good life partner for you anyway.

If you are one of the say 10% of people who reject the standard life path as ideal, you do not want to be with the 90% of the women who are striving for the standard path in life. Yes, it's more effort to find a good partner in the 10% who want something else, but you are not afraid to spend a little energy on that, are you?

It's not that I am afraid of, It's just really hard to find it, and then hard to live with, because it's hard to consider everyday living in the alternative way itself.

Changing the point of view of how life is seen, of no longer wanting to be a proletarian, but rather an owner of one's own company, means that one becomes part of capitalism, with its rules, and plays the game. Yes, one could do this and live ERE, i.e. a frugal lifestyle, but it is always a "traditional" and not an "alternative" type of lifestyle. Is this correct?
It means living as before, but from year to year, minimizing luxuries, surrogates. For me personally, luxury is finding reliable, socially appreciable people with whom you can feel good together, you can build relationships. Hotels, cars and luxury hotels mean nothing to me, other than immediate satisfaction, but nothing else.
The thing is, it's really hard to rebuild that "effort" and "reward" system, you had before with a surrogated need, like buying a new phone. Anyone knows that feeling of buying something new, which would empower you for the next 24 hours.
Well.. If is there a way to find a new "drug" - because this is basically how it works - which could have that same effect in ERE lifestyle, let me know about it! For me it's really hard to find that "feeling" even tho I've found interest in things I've written above!

[J_]

Have you read the ere-book? Ere is not so much a lifestyle. It is a way of thinking. What you write let me suppose, that you have not thought a lot about life. But you are starting now.
It is not to hurry, it only works as you recognise its wisdom. Take your time to discover the wisdom in freeing yourself from the social impact you are surrounded with. There is no drug. There is freedom and responsibility, if you want it.

[DutchGirl]

One thing to notice is that when you are exploring alternative living, at least for me, it generate so much stress, I have episodes of agoraphobia, panic, and while I go back to the traditional lifestyle, this sensation are very lower than before.
I think this is connected to our "human sense" of what "accomplished" life means for us: if you are teached for 20 years to do "a", but then at year 21 you find that "b" is what you should do instead, it's really hard to reprogram your life on that, and I think that this is a part of the side effects.
I feel lonely, lost, panic sometimes but also present, wiser, more stronger and calm with alternative living. It's a very contrast living.

Besides what J already said...

I feel that if you tried rationally to convince yourself you need to do "b", but it makes you really miserable... fully "b" may just not be the way to live for you. Maybe your ratio says b, but maybe the full human being that you are, including your emotion and needs, will be unhappy if you only do "b". Or maybe this is true at your current stage of life and it can change again, later.
Maybe your ideal life has more elements of "b" than it had before (thanks, ratio!), but maybe it also has some elements of "a" and hey, maybe there's even elements of "c" and "d" that bring you happiness.

[Lemur]

@DutchGirl

Not completely related, but reminds me of this quote:

“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it is not the same river and he is not the same man.”

Like reading a book once and then again a few years later. The takeaways will be different each time for reasons in the quote.

OP - Reprogramming is hard. I have too many thoughts on this to go mobile text with it.

[fingeek]

Motivation and momentum comes from action. So you do need to push to try things, and then see what hooks you in to encourage more.

Another thing I've been thinking about recently is "exploitation Vs exploration" modes. Exploitation being making the most of and optimising what you have (in salaryman speak, promotions and job crafting). Exploration mode being trying new things, going deep in learning etc.

I've found that for the last many years I've been in exploitation mode, but I've had a growing urge to switch into exploration. I have done this gradually, but being conscious of this mental model has really helped me do this more intentionally. Perhaps this helps frame this a bit?