Candide: The Liminal Space

[candide]

New? / Context
============

* 39 year old male, married
* daughter who is a little over 10 months at the start of this thread
* WL 5 – and I look trapped there for the foreseeable future.
* Leaving my profession of teacher (update: ha ha. So I thought at the time).

The last item is most directly what I am referring to as the liminal space, but I do like double meanings... My daughter is in a state of constant change, and my time in nature has changed from just reading landscapes as a whole to looking at components and making notes how they change through time.

Previous journal thread, which you can use to ladder to the ones before it:
viewtopic.php?p=261381#p261381

I have begun to write about my non-ERE interest here, with the handle of Pangloss because Candide was taken:
https://pangloss.dreamwidth.org/

[OutOfTheBlue]

School season ends in less than a month, right?

I understand you are looking for a non-teaching/non-frontline position starting from fall, so you have the summertime for you.

How's your feeling about this period?

Hope it can allow time for self care and renewal, after what must have been a taxing year on the school front.

Also, I'm intrigued about your shift with regards to your time in nature. It seems there's a parallel with your witnessing of your daughter's development. Is she the catalyst to such change? Does the change in the way you look at nature changes you?

[candide]

Hey @OutOfTheBlue

I am going to break down your questions line by line below so you don't get a flurry of notifications just from me.

> School season ends in less than a month, right?

I am happy to say, the school year is over now.

> I understand you are looking for a non-teaching/non-frontline position starting from fall, so you have the summertime for you.

By the nature of my contract, I have two more months of pay and insurance coverage. I have decided that I don't want to work for a school again in any capacity for a while.

> How's your feeling about this period?

The jury is still out about the feeling thing, short term. I am trying to align more to my values, and real education and even appreciation for beauty is impossible within the school district I worked, if not nearly any American public school. In the long term, if I get to be more with my nerd roots as well as make for time for la pura vida, then I will take the bet that the feelings will come.

> Hope it can allow time for self care and renewal, after what must have been a taxing year on the school front.

I appreciate that. I hope so too.

> Also, I'm intrigued about your shift with regards to your time in nature. It seems there's a parallel with your witnessing of your daughter's development. Is she the catalyst to such change? Does the change in the way you look at nature changes you?

My relationship with the natural was key to me getting through my tough times (sorta explained here), but it has been become clearer and clearer to me over time that what I connected to wasn't anything my social circle, including my wife, will understand. Or failing a lack of understanding, it is not anything anyone I know in person goes out to seek.

I have only recently been exposed to the term "forest bathing," but that what I have done several years now. It has worked on me on the level of landscapes, flows, and the surprises that pop in.

My daughter, starting with my wife's pregnancy, was the catalyst for a lot of changes. The biggest was the switch from a life of pure defense -- just trying to prevent bad things from happening -- to trying to figure out what experiences to create. Another important consideration was that nature needed to get closer to home, so I could be better on call first to help my wife through pregnancy, but to be able to tend to my daughter's needs, so the bird-watching started.

There was a particular hike I took that really cemented my new views through an epiphany, which by William's James's criteria is at its heart ineffable. So, my apologies in advance that I cannot put it into words (though ironically it is partly about the importance of words)... My mind ran through an attempt at guilt that my daughter wasn't there, to an understanding that she would be on some hike with me some day, to what are deeper truths than just the social order, to what I want to share and bond over, to the value of trees, but the need for them to have a name so we can share and track through time. And that led to realizing things about time, that I want the periodic features of life to be emphasized for my daughter rather than the linear.

(Ah, and now I see that this isn't exactly the gift I am going to give her; it is the gift she has already given me, and I need to just not mess it up).

[OutOfTheBlue]

Thanks for your reply, Candide.

> I am happy to say, the school year is over now.

Hip hip hooray!

>The jury is still out about the feeling thing, short term. I am trying to align more to my values, and real education and even appreciation for beauty is impossible within the school district I worked, if not nearly any American public school. In the long term, if I get to be more with my nerd roots as well as make for time for la pura vida, then I will take the bet that the feelings will come.

My word choice for this question (how are you feeling, not what you think about this) was quite deliberate, and I'm happy you picked it up. I'm only working with impressions here, so I may be off the mark (and hope I'm not overstepping), but I'll say that I can relate to a certain tendency to withdraw from feeling(s) in order to cope with a hard/hurtful/unlivable situation, (lets call it "disaster") or string of disasters as I understand you've been through in the past. At the same time, you seem quite intellectually driven and, drawing from my own experience and readings, I can see how (over)thinking can actually exacerbate suffering (a different kind, however) or become itself of form of suffering and bring to an impasse, because there's no way this can be solved/digested through thinking alone. My current understanding is that thawing frozen feelings is best done by tending, listening, giving voice and space to these feelings. And maybe this period is one in which you can allow this to happen.

> My relationship with the natural was key to me getting through my tough times (sorta explained here), but it has been become clearer and clearer to me over time that what I connected to wasn't anything my social circle, including my wife, will understand. Or failing a lack of understanding, it is not anything anyone I know in person goes out to seek.

I have only recently been exposed to the term "forest bathing," but that what I have done several years now. It has worked on me on the level of landscapes, flows, and the surprises that pop in.

Funny synchronicity. The same day you wrote this, I was actually searching books about "forest bathing" or shinrin-yoku, having first encountered the term in French (bains de forêt).

I *think* I understand what you're alluding to, and if so, it is something I am actively seeking or looking to deepen.

Does this description of someone else's experience during a multi-day group retreat in a summer, high-altitude, Rocky Mountain forest sound familiar?

I was sitting by a small stream on a starry, moonlit night. I felt a strong, sentinel-like presence from a stand of large pine trees above the stream. For the first time in my life I didn’t feel like a tourist in nature. The forest was alive, and I was in communion with her. When I heard the trees clearly say with one voice, “Now you belong to us!” I was shaken. At that moment a tectonic shift took place within me. I felt a sense of belonging to the whole cosmos, not just a church or denomination. I looked up in the sky full of stars and began to weep, overwhelmed by joy in the admission that I no longer felt the need to save the world. I just wanted to belong more fully to it.

I intend to share more about this soon as part of the Plotkin MMG forum participation, if you're interested.

I'm childless, but let me say that I love what you share about your relationship with your daughter and how her presence/being changes/enriches your own perspective/experience. A great gift economy just between you two!

Reminds me of a time, around age four, when I was exuberantly running up and down the stairs, and said to my sister, who was two or so: "Sister, please grow up quickly so that we can run down the stairs together".

Just a little patience. There's a promise of sharing some great time in the wilderness!

Now I better understand your picking up bird watching.

Thank you also for sharing hints of your epiphany.

After having thoroughly enjoyed "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on your general recommendation, I'm happy to return the favor with a book rec that seems to touch upon many of these themes.

It's David Abram's "The Spell of the Sensuous: Perception and Language in a More-Than-Human World".

A densely written book that takes the phenomenological intersubjectivity and concept of the life-world of Edmund Husserl and Maurice Merleau-Ponty's conception of the participatory nature of perception as its jumping-off point, builds on Heidegger's horizonal and grounded understanding of time [along with a study of the Aboriginal Dreamtime], critiques the rise of written language [and especially phonetic alphabet] as that which gradually loosened our hold on the sensual and sensuous world, and ultimately puts forward a sense-based, animistic, and story-based understanding of the human relationship with the more-than-human world.

There's even a passage on bird language…

His other book, "Becoming Animal", is also great.

Looking forward to reading your new journal updates!

[candide]

@OutOfTheBlue
I like that we are sharing from the heart here. I imagine you are familiar with Pascal’s formulation “The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of... We know the truth not only by the reason, but by the heart.”

And the heart seems to often yearn the most for connection and the sense of meaning it brings -- or perhaps it is meaning and the sense of connection it brings. I could go to the physical substrate and talk about mirror neurons, the parasympathetic nervous system, and the default mode network, but I am not as interested in picking apart the machineries of joy to study them as finding the best ways to live them.

Reminds me of a time, around age four, when I was exuberantly running up and down the stairs, and said to my sister, who was two or so: "Sister, please grow up quickly so that we can run down the stairs together".

What a beautiful moment!

Just a little patience. There's a promise of sharing some great time in the wilderness!

I am in no rush for my daughter to grow up I have taken heed those who tell me it all goes by in a blink, with a common expression of “the days are long, but the years are short.” So instead I try to set up for the future, hoping to be able to fan her nature sense of wonder, connect to our home biome deeply, and then vacation to other ones -- the vision in my mind being some time by the Great Lakes. I believe the Abrams books you recommend will play there part in building connection.

I now wish to write about my daughter.

Just knowing her these few months, it is clear to me how innate the desire to connect, to be *part of something* is. When she learned to shake her head, her and I played a game where we mirrored each others headshake. Sometimes she would start, sometimes I would, but the key was that we could do something together. It mildly bothered me how much her shaking was misinterpreted during the height of playing this game. People were too hung up on the gesture as the fixed signal “no,” but during that time over 90% of her head shakes were either excitement (so closer to “yay”) ... or an invitation to play the game. She would have liked to play it with more people, but she had very few takers.

Her most recent pointing out a finger and having someone tap their finger against hers. People tend to get that one. The family variant, which again I first figured out, was that you can present your palm down and she’ll take her finger there, or even brush her hand over to “give me some skin.” People can do that, but they keep trying to force it into a “high five,” as that is more conventional at this point.

My word choice for this question (how are you feeling, not what you think about this) was quite deliberate, and I'm happy you picked it up. I'm only working with impressions here, so I may be off the mark (and hope I'm not overstepping), but I'll say that I can relate to a certain tendency to withdraw from feeling(s) in order to cope with a hard/hurtful/unlivable situation, (lets call it "disaster") or string of disasters as I understand you've been through in the past. At the same time, you seem quite intellectually driven and, drawing from my own experience and readings, I can see how (over)thinking can actually exacerbate suffering (a different kind, however) or become itself of form of suffering and bring to an impasse, because there's no way this can be solved/digested through thinking alone. My current understanding is that thawing frozen feelings is best done by tending, listening, giving voice and space to these feelings. And maybe this period is one in which you can allow this to happen.

I am fine with the topic. At that time of my last reply had hit a depressed funk. And I am indeed used to having to tell myself that just because something doesn’t feel right in the short term doesn’t mean I am necessarily on the wrong path. Things are already looking up from where I was. No small bit of this has been making time to write so I can have a creative outlet again.

I will try to keep in mind some discussion of my mental states as I progress through this time of liminality.

[theanimal]

Just knowing her these few months, it is clear to me how innate the desire to connect, to be *part of something* is. When she learned to shake her head, her and I played a game where we mirrored each others headshake. Sometimes she would start, sometimes I would, but the key was that we could do something together. It mildly bothered me how much her shaking was misinterpreted during the height of playing this game. People were too hung up on the gesture as the fixed signal “no,” but during that time over 90% of her head shakes were either excitement (so closer to “yay”) ... or an invitation to play the game. She would have liked to play it with more people, but she had very few takers.

That's funny, my daughter did the exact same thing. She shook her head violently back and forth in pure joy. Most people's response was "Oh she's saying no, can you say yes?" And then they start nodding their head up and down. But she'd have the biggest smile on her face and just keep on going back and forth. We've tried to get her to do it recently, but she's stopped doing it for a while. Her big thing now is clapping. Each new action or behavior really is a beautiful thing to experience, and often filled with such joy!

[Frita]

Thanks for the happy memory of the head shaking game! My twins would play this together, eliminating the need to train others. They were both toe-headed blondes with fine hair that hadn’t yet been cut. Procedure: Headshake until hair is frizzled out like Albert Einstein, laugh, smooth hair, start over. (Sometimes they’d alternate, but simultaneously headshaking upped the laughing.)

And the great news is kids come up with hilarious thing after another to entertain themselves. Enjoy!

[candide]

@theanimal and @Frita

Happy to connect on the good baby memories.

[ertyu]

On another journal you mentioned giving tips on possible locations in spain -- would you be wiling to write out a thing for general consumption? Much appreciated

[candide]

On another journal you mentioned giving tips on possible locations in spain -- would you be wiling to write out a thing for general consumption? Much appreciated

I've never been to Spain. Now I'm puzzled where the miscommunication could have arisen. Is it someone else, or did I write some very odd rhetorical thing...

[ertyu]

I've never been to Spain. Now I'm puzzled where the miscommunication could have arisen. Is it someone else, or did I write some very odd rhetorical thing...

it was me misreading and getting confused, sorry my bad

[candide]

@ertyu
No worries.

[candide]

I guess I should make some account of my time since I have left teaching.

Vacation
======
We actually took a family vacation, of sorts. My public library is part of a network of twelve libraries that span three counties. There are a few I had visited for various reasons before, but this summer we did a series of day trips to visit the rest of them. Tomorrow, I will visit the last one I have left to visit, and then some time in the near future my wife and and daughter will catch up on a library I had been to but they haven’t.

This has been much more easier than bringing a baby on a plane or driving across state lines, but still gave my wife (the traveler in the family) enough travel that she feels a bit vacationed out; we can now take a vacation from our vacations before my wife starts her new career (with her onboarding occurring the day after the trip), and I can start looking for a new job in earnest.

Workshop
=======

I have reorganized my workshop, moving all of the sawing, sanding, and drilling tools close to the door, so that when I generate saw dust I am doing so outside. This is a fairly obvious idea, once you consider air quality, but as I have said before, since I am self-taught, it is not something that occurred for quite some time. Instead, my shop was designed around taking as few steps as possible, and doing so around my standing desk. What I gained in convenience, I lost in ventilation. Not good.


My standing desk. The photo doesn't really show it, but I love how everything has a place.


So after my reorganization, my standing desk the place where I do most design, marking and glue ups. All of that works as an area for adding material and then I have a second area for everything I need to remove material, with everything having a home base and available at a quick grab.


Saw horse and stand both made from reclaimed wood. Working outdoors, I maximize ventilation.


Writing
======
I have started writing about my other interests here. The screen name "Candide" was somehow taken, so I have gone with "Pangloss," another character from the same book. I don’t want to overload the journal thread with things that aren’t really ERE, but I would love anyone anyone who wants to check it out ... to do so. It will mostly be short bits once or twice a week, but I hope to occasionally write a few longer, proper essays. So far these bits have the topics of birds, copyright (I’m against), and Andy Warhol.

[OutOfTheBlue]

>@OutOfTheBlue
I like that we are sharing from the heart here. I imagine you are familiar with Pascal’s formulation “The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of... We know the truth not only by the reason, but by the heart.”

And the heart seems to often yearn the most for connection and the sense of meaning it brings -- or perhaps it is meaning and the sense of connection it brings. I could go to the physical substrate and talk about mirror neurons, the parasympathetic nervous system, and the default mode network, but I am not as interested in picking apart the machineries of joy to study them as finding the best ways to live them.

I wholeheartedly concur (and yes, I'm no stranger to this quote!)

This reminds me of another quote, footnote, actually, by Bill Plotkin, where at some point, he writes:

Neurology is to behavior as wings are to bird flight (not the same thing as flight), or as fingers, brains, musical instruments, and musicians are to the orchestral performance of a symphony. The fact that certain things happen in certain parts of the brain when we feel empathy, or that our capacity for empathy might be impaired when that part of the brain is injured, tells us only that that part of the brain is part of how we do empathy (a valuable thing to know). The fact that you can’t have an acoustic piano concerto without a piano does not make vibrations of piano strings the same thing as a concerto.

And, another, by Henri Michaux (translated):

The snake that wraps itself around a mouse is not playing. It is, after the ingestion that will follow, to meet its body's demand for fats, proteins, mineral salts, etc. No doubt, no doubt. But surely the response that the snake gives itself is more beautiful, more moving, more dignified, more exciting, more ceremonial, more sacred perhaps, and certainly more 'snakey'.

> I am in no rush for my daughter to grow up I have taken heed those who tell me it all goes by in a blink, with a common expression of “the days are long, but the years are short.” So instead I try to set up for the future, hoping to be able to fan her nature sense of wonder, connect to our home biome deeply, and then vacation to other ones -- the vision in my mind being some time by the Great Lakes. I believe the Abrams books you recommend will play there part in building connection.

"The days are long, but the years are short". Beautiful.

Yes, David Abram's books fall into that perception-shifting/connection-deepening realm.

You might like to take a look at the "Project Eco-Awakening: An Invitation [Plotkin MMG] " thread. This is what your epiphany and the experiences you've hinted at made me think of, so the public sharing has been partly inspired by our discussion!

I believe we have no parents in our Plotkin MMG group, which is another angle that could be shared with the forum as he has some great things to say on raising kids in an ecocentric way and points to many resources/further readings relevant to wholesome parenting.

Highly highly recommend Nature and the Human Soul, starting with the relevant chapters on early/late childhood...

> I now wish to write about my daughter.

Just knowing her these few months, it is clear to me how innate the desire to connect, to be *part of something* is. When she learned to shake her head, her and I played a game where we mirrored each others headshake. Sometimes she would start, sometimes I would, but the key was that we could do something together. It mildly bothered me how much her shaking was misinterpreted during the height of playing this game. People were too hung up on the gesture as the fixed signal “no,” but during that time over 90% of her head shakes were either excitement (so closer to “yay”) ... or an invitation to play the game. She would have liked to play it with more people, but she had very few takers.

Her most recent pointing out a finger and having someone tap their finger against hers. People tend to get that one. The family variant, which again I first figured out, was that you can present your palm down and she’ll take her finger there, or even brush her hand over to “give me some skin.” People can do that, but they keep trying to force it into a “high five,” as that is more conventional at this point.

A baby's relationship to the world is still essentially unmediated by culture-bound perspectives. That contrast you describe between your keen eye for nature observation and capacity for connection at this level with your daughter and the eagerness of others to interpret gestures from an acculturated point of view or rush to impose such views (or start educating to our ways so early on, when we would do well to apprentice to the infant's/child's innocence and sense of wonder) is very interesting for me.

Maybe all this time you've spent in the wilderness/outside has helped soften the grip of our more usual lenses of seeing/being in the world, and sharpened the ability to notice/grasp things without succumbing to such influence.

> I am fine with the topic. At that time of my last reply had hit a depressed funk. And I am indeed used to having to tell myself that just because something doesn’t feel right in the short term doesn’t mean I am necessarily on the wrong path. Things are already looking up from where I was. No small bit of this has been making time to write so I can have a creative outlet again.

I will try to keep in mind some discussion of my mental states as I progress through this time of liminality.

Yes, writing/Journaling is great for that. Glad you have this in your toolbox. Whatever you also wish to share here of (let's call it) inner states would be welcome!

PS: Sorry if I've taken a bit too much space in your journal. Will be happy to follow along and interact more discretely.

[candide]

Maybe all this time you've spent in the wilderness/outside has helped soften the grip of our more usual lenses of seeing/being in the world, and sharpened the ability to notice/grasp things without succumbing to such influence.

To this point, I think there are empathetic, attentive parents who don't really traffic in nature, and probably people very locked into nature who can ignore their children, or turn get into "yeah, yeah ... whatever" mode for their children's attempts to play.

I think there is a through-line in my case, but a lot of that has to do with the kind of reflection I have done, the philosophies I hold, and the books I have read. But skills and habits of mind and really difficult to transfer between domains.

Other than that, I just broadly say I have a lot of reading to do, it would seem. I will try to get to Abrams and Plotkin soon. But much time being in the semi-wild, and much time rearing a child, will slow that.

[OutOfTheBlue]

You do well to highlight this. Yes, I'm sure there are other factors that come into play. Nonetheless, this quality of presence and attentiveness is a gift for everyone involved, and inspiring to see.

About the reading invitations: in your own time. May they be a joyful discovery that only enriches your dialogue with the semi-wild and your daughter/family.

[candide]

I was asked to update on my mental state, so I must admit that I am in what I hope is the low-point of the journal.

Before I get to that, I want to establish that I would prefer to not get any words of encouragement. By some quirk of my psychology, that kind of stuff usually makes me feel really bad. I have real-life social support, and I will figure out something eventually ... Me writing this up is just an attempt to chip into the commons by sharing my data and field notes.

Interviews
========

The library system had a few jobs available, and someone who seemed no more competent or qualified than me had got one earlier in the summer. But alas, I have very little in the way of interview skills.

In a previous thread I had once written:

If there becomes any type of competition, I will be pushed out by the cooler or shinier people.

Indeed... But I'll now give the full paragraph, with an emphasis added.

I'm also awkward, very shy when I am in a totally new situation. But then, if I feel comfortable it is often worse, as I am liable to get into my own little world and have bursts of passion that in no way sync up with the group. I have intense anti-charisma until I can show my reliability and competence, and then that only buys me acceptance within a specific domain. If there becomes any type of competition, I will be pushed out by the cooler or shinier people.

I actually think the library interview was a pretty good performance on my part, compared to some disaster interviews I had the last time I had exited education and tried to re-enter. But in any case, no weirdness should leak through, no matter how subtle. As one example, I probably should not have mentioned that I had visited all of the libraries in the system. While it may have added something to a positivity quotient, it's not what the cool people would do.

And there is bunches of moments where I can look back and know what I said was slightly off from the kind of person they went with, one better at selling themself and going "yes, and . . ." to strangers they are pretending to be already be friends with.

Class
=====

... I did a search on the forum for the term "job interview" and come up with an interesting sub-thread of TopHat's journal. Of particular interest was something Scott2 wrote (an emphasis added):

These rules don't apply for most of the students you went to university with. Class privilege dramatically changes the dynamic. They spent ages 3-22 trained to enter their family's class upon graduation. They automatically class signal and are immediately accepted. They have access to a network. They have family resources to fall back on. It's a different game. They can enter a new city and rapidly connect with opportunities of their class.

[...]

For what it's worth - my guess is you have residual signaling from jumping multiple class levels between childhood and university. You didn't have the family training or network from ages 3-22.

[...]

Once the network and safety net are established, life is far less dire than ruled out above. It's possible to come full circle, where the bullshit university rules look wise. When you effectively class signal, mentors and peers sponsor your ascension. There's no shortage of opportunity.

Now, Scott2 is talking about a much higher class, from much more prestigious universities than the people in my story who thought I had "a great interview," but that someone else "was a better fit for them." [1] But the point basically the same: the problem is I give off the wrong vibes.

Starting back two generations, my grandfather came from hard-scrabble conditions, but after serving in the Korea Conflict, came back and was trained in engineering through the military. I only found out that he had college-level skills toward the end of his life; just that's how the silent generation was -- self-promotion would be inconceivable to him. He lived frugally (WL 4?), worked at an air force base and was able to retire in his 50s and still have a good fortune (pensions and the greatest bull runs in human history sure didn't hurt). My dad picked up this baton and was downwardly mobile through substance abuse and being a high school dropout.

My mother is of rural stock, with her family giving a delightful streak of bipolar disorder. How'd your parents meet? Mine worked for different Long John Silvers locations. Why would you need college when you are already a shift manager in your 20s? Well, they'd find out. My mother has never worked anything beyond entry level since.

It's not very easy or me to pass as even lower-middle class, let alone middle class.

====

[1] The kind of management-speak that is supposed to be meaningless, but sound good, but here reveals a lot. I got close to passing for the class, but no, really I'm just an imposter who was able to do similar work to what they were hiring for for 14 years. Close, but I mean, who'd want to hang around with that?

[ertyu]

Some thoughts:

1. the bursts of passion thing makes me think adhd, dude. do with that info what you will.
2. at this point, you sound like you have an association between interview--place where i am awkward and other--at the next interview, the association activates, and you act awkward and other. EMDR for this. If you can find access to an EMDR-trained therapist, this would be exactly the sort of thing EMDR would help unpack.
3. are there any services in your vicinity where you can role-play interviews? some sort of social worker, job placement center... might be worth looking it up
4. might be worth looking up mock interview recordings on youtube
5. might be worth writing down the sorts of questions that tend to reoccur at interviews for the sorts of jobs you seek, and write down answers for those. this might eliminate the anxiety of having to think up things on the spot
6. there are also youtube videos by various career councelors that are basically, "how to answer X common interview question"
7. temp. iirc you're trying to transition from teaching; temp at the sorts of places you'd like to work not bc you might get a job there but to get a feel for the vibe and the atmosphere so you can then mirror that vibe to recruiters. even if you're the lowest of the low in an office, that's still an office. there's that lower middle class - middle class vibe you want. soak it up.
8. speaking of vibe, actively practice. go somewhere quiet, sit as for meditation, eliminate distractions. close your eyes. picture yourself at the past interviews that went shittily. now call up the vibe you wish you'd had and you wish you'd projected instead. your goal is to picture yourself in the old situation, but in a new state. when i say "vibe", you're going for a bodily sense. what would it be like? what would be your inner state? how would your body be? do you notice tension releasing in certain parts of your body, for instance? your shoulders dropping down from around your ears, you standing taller, maybe?

practice this a number of times. eventually, you will discover more and more aspects of the state you'd like to cultivate. the old vibe-association with interviewing should weaken.

basically, treat this like you have cptsd. if you have access to therapy at all, go. i've been in this exact situation, where shitty work history caused anxiety attacks in interviews. awkwardness, sped-up heart rate, the works. it's very easy to get sucked up in a depression vortex. i got sucked up in a depression vortex. it sucks.

[candide]

@ertyu

Great stuff, and I will take it to heart and try much of it out.

[Scott 2]

That class signaling is tough to remedy. I've made a few attempts at part time work since retiring a couple years ago. I too give off the wrong vibes, apparently. It's funny, because in one case, I used to do the work I couldn't get a call back for. A couple decades has that effect.